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| openstackgerrit | huangtianhua proposed openstack/heat: Support composite alarm https://review.openstack.org/352354 | 01:42 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/heat: Set properties to before_props before calling handle_update https://review.openstack.org/325784 | 03:42 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/heat: Adds some infos for stack notification https://review.openstack.org/343452 | 04:01 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: zuul is being restarted to reload configuration. Jobs should be re-enqueued but if you're missing anything (and it's not on http://status.openstack.org/zuul/) please issue a recheck in 30min. | 05:23 | |
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| openstackgerrit | shizhihui proposed openstack/heat-cfntools: Remove openstack/common from the exclude list of flake8 in tox https://review.openstack.org/353268 | 06:12 |
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| ramishra | hi all, team meeting in 25 mins. Feel free to add to the agenda. https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda#Agenda_.282016-08-10_0800_UTC.29 | 07:34 |
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| ramishra | guys meeting time | 08:00 |
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| ramishra | stevebaker, skraynev, KanagarajM, huangtianhua ^^^ | 08:00 |
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| openstackgerrit | huangtianhua proposed openstack/heat: Support composite alarm https://review.openstack.org/352354 | 08:01 |
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| ramishra | shardy: ^^^ | 08:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/heat-specs: Add spec for more flexible environment merging https://review.openstack.org/330414 | 08:19 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anant Patil proposed openstack/heat: Convergence: cancel update implementation https://review.openstack.org/301483 | 09:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | huangtianhua proposed openstack/heat: Refactor resource definition validating https://review.openstack.org/345946 | 09:10 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sharat Sharma proposed openstack/heat-templates: Changed resource to resources in the autoscaling.yaml file https://review.openstack.org/353341 | 09:27 |
| openstackgerrit | Sharat Sharma proposed openstack/heat-templates: Changed resource to resources in the autoscaling.yaml file https://review.openstack.org/353341 | 09:29 |
| openstackgerrit | huangtianhua proposed openstack/heat: Add validating of section 'conditions' https://review.openstack.org/345975 | 09:31 |
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| openstackgerrit | huangtianhua proposed openstack/heat: Add validating of section 'conditions' https://review.openstack.org/345975 | 09:44 |
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| openstackgerrit | huangtianhua proposed openstack/heat: Support condition for resource https://review.openstack.org/347123 | 10:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Peter Razumovsky proposed openstack/heat: Neutron::Subnet observe reality implementation https://review.openstack.org/255753 | 12:27 |
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| openstackgerrit | Peter Razumovsky proposed openstack/heat: Neutron::Router observe reality implementation https://review.openstack.org/255776 | 12:58 |
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| larsks | heat peoples: If I have a list of dictionaries, is there a way in a heat template for me to produce a *new* list that is the result of transforming each dictionary in the source list through the use of map_merge with another dictionary? | 15:20 |
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| larsks | I thought maybe "repeat", but it's not clear from the documentation whether for_each will work with structured values. | 15:21 |
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| Drago | larsks: Though I'm not very familiar with YAQL, I would say probably YAQL. | 15:23 |
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| larsks | Probably not by calling map_merge though, right? That is, are heat intrinsinc functions available within yaql expressions? | 15:23 |
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| larsks | I've been looking through the yaql docs, such as they are, and haven't yet hit upon a solution with or without that... | 15:24 |
| Drago | larsks: I doubt it's possible to use Heat intrinsic functions inside YAQL | 15:24 |
| larsks | Have you met any yaql gurus? Good examples seem hard to come by. | 15:24 |
| larsks | Maybe they are called yaql jackles. | 15:24 |
| Drago | I would not be surprised if shardy was | 15:26 |
| Drago | back in a bit | 15:27 |
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| openstackgerrit | Michael Ionkin proposed openstack/heat: Add choice for integration tests launching https://review.openstack.org/353585 | 15:39 |
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| larsks | So, another question: what's an easy way to test out yaql expressions *in heat templates*? I tried a simple stack like this: http://chunk.io/f/90aa3edbf94a42b3a9201a84f4dfa741 | 16:04 |
| larsks | Hmm, maybe I need to add an output... | 16:04 |
| larsks | ...but the yaql dictionary seems to not be expanded. | 16:05 |
| openstackgerrit | Andy Hsiang proposed openstack/heat: Add key/value support for orchestrating images https://review.openstack.org/318973 | 16:06 |
| Drago | larsks: There was that OS::Heat::Value patch. Would that be useful to you? | 16:07 |
| larsks | Drago: in this case, it looks like I just had a heat_template_version that was too old, so yaql wasn't recognized as an intrinsic function. | 16:08 |
| larsks | So, that's better. Now back to playing with expressions. | 16:08 |
| larsks | I'm not entirely sure I understand the use case behind OS::Heat::Value... | 16:09 |
| larsks | Right now, I have just parameters and outputs, which seems sufficient for my testing. | 16:09 |
| Drago | Ah right, template version | 16:12 |
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| zaneb | larsks: here's an example of the use case for OS::Heat::Value: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/308182/ - it avoids having to add a child stack in order to re-use that value in multiple places | 17:23 |
| larsks | zaneb: thanks. Do you have any thoughts re: my earlier question about performing transformations on a list of dictionaries? I am currently experimenting with yaql expressions but it is slow going... | 17:24 |
| zaneb | larsks: I *think* that the repeat function can do that | 17:24 |
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| zaneb | failing that, checkout out http://yaqluator.com | 17:25 |
| larsks | It looked to me like the repeat function was doing simple string substitution on tokens from for_each, but if you have an example that works with structured values that would be awesome. | 17:25 |
| * zaneb looks | 17:26 | |
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| larsks | zaneb: ...but I think I have finally figured out the yaql I need, just now. | 17:28 |
| zaneb | larsks: looks like repeat supports strings, sequences or mappings, and it goes down recursively into them to do replacements | 17:28 |
| zaneb | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/heat/tree/heat/engine/hot/functions.py#n657 | 17:28 |
| larsks | I guess I would need to see an example. The docs (I am looking at http://docs.openstack.org/developer/heat/template_guide/hot_spec.html#repeat) show simple str_replace style subsitution of an arbitrary value (like '<%port%>') with an item from the corresponding for_each key. | 17:30 |
| larsks | If in that example, 'ports' was a mapping, could I do something like: get_attr(<%port%>, 'foo')? | 17:30 |
| larsks | Because that hurts my brain, right there. | 17:30 |
| larsks | (s/mapping/list of mappings/) | 17:31 |
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| zaneb | ah, yeah, you need it to evaluate intrinsic function *after* you do the substitution, but repeat does it before | 17:31 |
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| zaneb | so you're right, that's a no go | 17:32 |
| larsks | Ok. Yaql it is! | 17:33 |
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| larsks | So here's my yaql question, if anyone cares to take a luck: I'm trying to figure out how to refer to a top-level key from within the context of a select statement (in which '$' refers to the current item being processed by select): http://chunk.io/f/f507a7211ca840fb883b54a03378a7c1 | 17:36 |
| larsks | s/luck/look/ | 17:36 |
| larsks | fingers. | 17:36 |
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| yohoffman | Hello Heat peoples - Wondering what your thoughts are on this blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/glance-heat-metadata-enhancements There is no spec up at the moment, we'd like to get a feel for what others think about the idea. Thanks! | 18:28 |
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| yohoffman | randallburt1: I believe you discussed this bp briefly with another developer a few months. We're hoping to get working on it, assuming the Heat team is on board. | 18:34 |
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| zaneb | yohoffman: is there something to do for that beyond https://review.openstack.org/#/c/318973/ ? | 18:38 |
| yohoffman | Oh my bad! I sent the wrong url! | 18:39 |
| yohoffman | THIS bp - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/heat/+spec/cinder-quota-resource | 18:39 |
| yohoffman | too many tabs open | 18:40 |
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| yohoffman | zaneb: Any thoughts? | 18:52 |
| zaneb | not really ;) | 18:53 |
| yohoffman | so no strong feelings either way? | 18:55 |
| randallburt1 | yohoffman: don't recall discussing that one | 18:56 |
| yohoffman | randallburt1: That's alright =) have any thoughts on it now? | 18:57 |
| randallburt1 | yohoffman: oh, now I remember. Not sure why you'd need it and I'm pretty sure it won't do what's intended, but I won't hold up the train if others think its worthwhile | 18:57 |
| yohoffman | Right now, cinder defaults to its default quota. You need to change it manually. We want to be able to use Heat to do the orchestration fully without manual updates afterward. | 18:58 |
| randallburt1 | yohoffman: and what happens when stack 2 changes the same user's quota? which one is right? | 18:59 |
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| randallburt1 | yohoffman: like I said, doesn't make sense to me in the context of Heat but if you're planning on using Heat as a management tool for your cloud, then it will be caveat emptor | 19:00 |
| randallburt1 | yohoffman: I'm not going to -2 over it | 19:00 |
| yohoffman | randallburt1: So ideally there would be a way to have it only work the first time. Do you think that's possible? | 19:02 |
| randallburt1 | yohoffman: sure, but that would defeat the purpose of using Heat. might as well use the cinder management tools that cinder provides | 19:02 |
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| yohoffman | <randallburt1>: Well that means using the cinder command line tool. An admin can't fully orchestrate cinder with his quota requirements using heat. | 19:05 |
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| vgridnev | hello people. can you explain why heat is running integration tests in upgrade script during grenade job? my understanding that upgrade should just upgrade service, but should not run any tests | 19:15 |
| randallburt1 | yohoffman: fair enough. IMO, heat wasn't intended to admin the cloud itself but deploy and orchestrate applications on top of it. As I've said, though, you don't have to sell me on it. I've already said I won't block it. I won't +2 it either, but if others think its valuable that's fine. | 19:15 |
| vgridnev | I mean https://github.com/openstack/heat/blob/master/devstack/upgrade/upgrade.sh#L89 | 19:16 |
| yohoffman | randallburt1: Right, I understand. I'm just wondering if everyone shares your view and no one will +2 it, then it's just not worth pursuing it. | 19:17 |
| randallburt1 | yohoffman: since we're spread out geographically, you might have to wait a little later to get some cores on. Alternatively, you can put it on the agenda for the weekly meeting and hopefully get more core input | 19:18 |
| yohoffman | randallburt1: Thanks, that may be a good idea. Where can I put it on the agenda? | 19:19 |
| randallburt1 | zaneb: ^^ I don't have the agenda link handy. do you? | 19:19 |
| zaneb | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/HeatAgenda | 19:20 |
| randallburt1 | zaneb: thanks, just found it. | 19:21 |
| yohoffman | Thanks, I don't see an agenda for next week though. | 19:21 |
| randallburt1 | you can start one if you like. | 19:21 |
| yohoffman | That's a lot of pressure ;-) Maybe I'll wait a few days for someone else to do the honors | 19:22 |
| yohoffman | Thank you randallburt1 and zaneb ! | 19:23 |
| randallburt1 | np | 19:23 |
| randallburt1 | yohoffman: oh, you can also just show up. at the beginning of the meeting the ptl will ask for additional agenda items | 19:24 |
| yohoffman | randallburt1: Oh great. That's sounds like a good plan too. | 19:24 |
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| ayoung | zaneb, how does a node post data to Heat? Is it just the event API? Is there some way a newly booted node can update Heat with a random payload? | 19:49 |
| zaneb | ayoung: you could have a sw deployment that generates your random payload and returns it to heat (that would use the signal API) | 19:50 |
| ayoung | zaneb, would it be possible to confirm the IP address of the node when that is called? Say, with a new middleware? | 19:51 |
| zaneb | mmmmaybe | 19:52 |
| ayoung | I want the node to post a Public Key that is used for other things later | 19:52 |
| ayoung | and I want to confirm the identity of the node when posting that public key | 19:52 |
| ayoung | so it is essentially going to be a CSR, and part of the CSR signing process would be: | 19:52 |
| ayoung | IP address of the caller is X. GO to neutron, lookup the IP address of the node: is is X. OK, sign certificate | 19:53 |
| zaneb | ayoung: sounds like you need kfox1111's instance users feature ;) | 19:54 |
| ayoung | zaneb, trying to support that, yes | 19:54 |
| ayoung | zaneb, although, not 100% | 19:54 |
| ayoung | in this case, the signing of the cert could then be used to confirm the instance user, but could also be used against other, not keystone like things | 19:54 |
| zaneb | we are talking about the certificate part of the Fernet key rotation thread, right? | 19:55 |
| ayoung | zaneb, to support that too | 19:56 |
| ayoung | zaneb, also for the HA use case, where two or more nodes need to share a cert for HA proxy HTTPS | 19:56 |
| zaneb | so we're talking about the tripleo undercloud specifically | 19:57 |
| ayoung | zaneb, that is where it starts, yes | 19:57 |
| zaneb | it _might_ be possible to do a middleware thing on the undercloud | 19:58 |
| ayoung | zaneb, so let's say I made a really limited project, and gave the newly booted node keystone creds on that project, It could then call Heat. I assume that is necessary in order to create the software delopyment you just suggested? | 19:58 |
| zaneb | it's not possible on clouds in general because usually the VMs will be behind NAT | 19:58 |
| ayoung | talking to Metadata is on some sort of locked down interface, though | 19:59 |
| ayoung | I guess that is different than Heat, though | 19:59 |
| zaneb | I think you're referring to the nova metadata server. that works with some magic networking stuff. trouble is, it's read-only | 20:00 |
| ayoung | yeah, that is what I was thinking about. Node to Heat would go via the public interface, wouldn't it? | 20:00 |
| zaneb | yes, correct | 20:00 |
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| zaneb | re "so let's say I made a really limited project, and gave the newly booted node keystone creds on that project, It could then call Heat. I assume that is necessary in order to create the software delopyment you just suggested?"... | 20:01 |
| zaneb | that's not what I meant | 20:01 |
| ayoung | zaneb, who would create the software deployment then? | 20:02 |
| zaneb | you would create the software deployment on the undercloud, using the undercloud admin's credentials | 20:02 |
| ayoung | ah | 20:02 |
| ayoung | zaneb, so event API has no payload, I thought? | 20:02 |
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| zaneb | you mean signal API? | 20:02 |
| zaneb | it does have a payload | 20:02 |
| zaneb | so you can get outputs from a sw deployment http://docs.openstack.org/developer/heat/template_guide/openstack.html#OS::Heat::SoftwareDeployment-attrs | 20:03 |
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| zaneb | you get a status code and the stderr + stdout from whatever you ran | 20:04 |
| ayoung | zaneb, I was looking at http://developer.openstack.org/api-ref-orchestration-v1.html#resource_signal | 20:04 |
| ayoung | "This operation does not accept a request body and does not return a response body. " | 20:04 |
| zaneb | hmm, looks like a docs bug. the operative bit is "The contents of the request body depends on the resource to which you send a signal." | 20:05 |
| ayoung | But I see above it: " The contents of the request body depends on the resource to which you send a signal. | 20:05 |
| ayoung | " | 20:05 |
| ayoung | yep | 20:05 |
| ayoung | zaneb, OK, so assuming we are using this for an openstack overcloud deploy, we would want the node to post the public kety as early as possible. | 20:06 |
| zaneb | ayoung: yeah, I'd do it inside the Controller node template | 20:07 |
| ayoung | heat would get that, do some majik to confirm (hand wave for now) and add the signed certificate into the metadata to be picked up shortly there after. At the same time, it could post anything that needs to be encrypted with that public key | 20:07 |
| ayoung | I would almost be tempted to make a certmonger plugin that is automatically kicked off as soon as cloud-init runs that makes the heat call, and knows how to fetch the cert from metadata. | 20:08 |
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| zaneb | ayoung: I'm not sure that the magic is really necessary. each server gets its own pre-signed URL with which to post back to the signal API anyway | 20:21 |
| ayoung | zaneb, AH...signed URLs. | 20:21 |
| ayoung | zaneb, and those are transmitted via the metadata, right? | 20:22 |
| zaneb | it's not bulletproof, but if your controller nodes have already been pwned that early in the process you have bigger problems ;) | 20:22 |
| zaneb | ayoung: there's different types of metadata | 20:22 |
| zaneb | I'm not 100% sure if that part goes through the nova metadata server, but I suspect not | 20:23 |
| zaneb | stevebaker would know | 20:23 |
| zaneb | he'll be around in a hour or so | 20:23 |
| ayoung | zaneb, regardless, it is a link that is generated and only communicated to the node, so that no other would have the value | 20:23 |
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| zaneb | that's certainly the idea | 20:24 |
| ayoung | zaneb, OK, so you mentioned "do it inside the Controller node template" | 20:24 |
| zaneb | yep | 20:25 |
| ayoung | there is something that triggers the node posting the event right now...Is that the stage 1-5 stuff I saw in the template? | 20:25 |
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| ayoung | zaneb, such that I could modify that code and add in a public key or CSR or something at that point? | 20:26 |
| zaneb | when you create the deployment resource, it makes the deployment data available to os-collect-config. that will run the deployment and immediately post back the results. when the results arrive, the sw deployment resource is marked COMPLETE and the results are available as output from it | 20:27 |
| zaneb | so when is runs is governed by where the deployment resource falls in the Heat dependency graph | 20:28 |
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| ayoung | zaneb, OK, I have an undercloud deployed right now. Let me see what it looks like | 20:30 |
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| ayoung | ControllerLoadBalancerDeployment_Step1 overcloud-ControllerNodesPostDeployment-lwd42m66o5pm-ControllerLoadBalancerDeployment_Step1-geyovzbza5qs | 20:33 |
| ayoung | zaneb, so I guess it is overcloud-ControllerNodesPostDeployment I want | 20:34 |
| zaneb | I would put it right in http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/tripleo-heat-templates/tree/puppet/controller.yaml | 20:35 |
| zaneb | just make a new deployment in there | 20:35 |
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| ayoung | zaneb, so, say something like | 20:37 |
| ayoung | ControllerCertificateRequest: | 20:37 |
| ayoung | depends_on: ControllerDeployment | 20:37 |
| zaneb | yep | 20:38 |
| ayoung | type: OS::TripleO::CertificateRequest | 20:38 |
| ayoung | and we would need to create a new puppet type for ^^ | 20:38 |
| zaneb | nah, just use type: OS::Heat::SoftwareDeployment | 20:38 |
| ayoung | zaneb, what, like an embedded shell script? | 20:39 |
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| zaneb | sure, or include the script using {get_file: } | 20:40 |
| zaneb | no need to involve puppet unless you want to | 20:40 |
| ayoung | zaneb, heh, no desire on my part to do puppet stuff | 20:40 |
| zaneb | lol | 20:40 |
| ayoung | ok, so I write a small shell script or python executable, and that becomes part of the deployment. get_file needs to be able to get that out of metadata? | 20:41 |
| ayoung | I see things like /usr/share/openstack-tripleo-heat-templates/extraconfig/tasks/pacemaker_common_functions.sh | 20:42 |
| zaneb | when you use get_file, the heat client will automatically find your script and pass it to Heat, and Heat will inline it into the template for you | 20:43 |
| zaneb | example: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/heat-templates/tree/hot/software-config/example-templates/example-script-template.yaml | 20:46 |
| ayoung | $ locate config-scripts | 20:47 |
| ayoung | /usr/share/openstack-heat-templates/software-config/example-templates/config-scripts | 20:47 |
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| ayoung | so those URLs in a Tripleo (RPM based) deploy are based on some $PATH type environ I guess | 20:47 |
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| ayoung | OK... I should be able to do a POC based on that. | 20:48 |
| ayoung | that at least would get the key from the node to the Heat server | 20:49 |
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| ayoung | well, how would that script know what URL to call? Where does the signed URL get passed> | 20:49 |
| ayoung | ? | 20:49 |
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| zaneb | magic | 20:55 |
| zaneb | your script doesn't have to call anything, just print to stdout | 20:56 |
| zaneb | setting group: script will make the heat-config-script hook run it, collect the output and signal back to the correct URL | 20:57 |
| zaneb | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/heat-templates/tree/hot/software-config/elements/heat-config-script/ | 20:58 |
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| ayoung | zaneb, OK...I need to try this out. But, let's say it does signal back to heat. How do I kick off a workload at that point? | 21:05 |
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| zaneb | ayoung: do you mean a (Mistral) workflow? | 21:06 |
| vgridnev | one more time: hello people. can you explain why heat is running integration tests in upgrade script during grenade job? my understanding that upgrade should just upgrade service, but should not run any tests | 21:07 |
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| vgridnev | I mean https://github.com/openstack/heat/blob/master/devstack/upgrade/upgrade.sh#L89 | 21:08 |
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| zaneb | vgridnev: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/heat-specs/specs/liberty/upgrade-tests.html | 21:09 |
| vgridnev | zaneb, and what is that? | 21:10 |
| vgridnev | I asking about reasoning of running tests in upgrade | 21:10 |
| zaneb | and I just posted a link to the spec that I believe (I haven't read it) explains the reasons | 21:10 |
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| vgridnev | zaneb, I understand how grenade works (mostly). I mean, WHY heat is running integration tests in upgrade script? the purpose of upgrade is just upgrading the service, and nothing else | 21:12 |
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| zaneb | vgridnev: I don't understand what you're asking. are you saying it's in the wrong place? | 21:14 |
| stevebaker | ayoung: let me know if you have any questions | 21:16 |
| stevebaker | vgridnev: other grenade jobs would run tempest using whatever standard pattern - that pattern is not useful to us so we run our own test after the upgrade | 21:17 |
| stevebaker | vgridnev: I've just replied to your comment https://review.openstack.org/#/c/349741/5/devstack/upgrade/upgrade.sh | 21:19 |
| stevebaker | could cores please review the rest of this series - its over 2 months old now https://review.openstack.org/#/c/323614/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/330800 | 21:21 |
| zaneb | stevebaker: ooh, is that going to fix our annoying gate bug? | 21:22 |
| stevebaker | zaneb: the thread cancel one? I doubtit | 21:22 |
| vgridnev | stevebaker, first, it's not guaranteed that all services are upgraded; I think that probably verify phase is more appropriate for that. But anyway, what is the profit of executing absolutely same jobs after upgrade? What case of upgrade it covers? | 21:22 |
| zaneb | stevebaker: then no reviews for you! | 21:22 |
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| stevebaker | zaneb: but it will mean I can start working on sqlalchemy 2nd level cache things, which is why I did it in the first place | 21:23 |
| stevebaker | instead of caching at the versioned object layer https://review.openstack.org/#/c/317221/ | 21:23 |
| stevebaker | vgridnev: This is the first time I've touched the grenade scripts, but I assume that running the same test pre and post upgrade is just a smoke test to confirm things are not completely broken by the upgrade | 21:25 |
| vgridnev | but moreover, it's right now heat integration tests are blocking sahara-grenade job because of issues with quotas | 21:26 |
| ayoung | stevebaker, so far so good. I know how to trigger the workflow I want from the node now, thanks to zaneb . I'll have to give it ta try. However, once the node posts the certificate signing request (CSR) back to Heat, I need something to pick it up and do something with it | 21:27 |
| ayoung | it sounds like I need something running on the undercloud node that is listening for this signal notification, and zaneb suggested mistral | 21:27 |
| vgridnev | so, probably you should just provide ability of disabling that; it's a little bit annoying: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/353585/ | 21:27 |
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| stevebaker | ayoung: actually there is probably full integration available for you right now to use to define mistral tasks which create software deployments. What version of tripleo are you developing against? | 21:29 |
| stevebaker | vgridnev: yes, that sounds fair enough | 21:30 |
| ayoung | stevebaker, I was hoping to do this with Mitaka, but If I need to go to Newton, that is OK | 21:30 |
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| ayoung | I see that the mistral packages are installed, but there is no mistral process running | 21:31 |
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| stevebaker | yeah, it may be newton onwards. Here is the mistral bit https://review.openstack.org/#/c/310966/11/tripleo_common/actions/deployment.py | 21:34 |
| stevebaker | and a workflow which uses it https://review.openstack.org/#/c/313953/9/workbooks/deployment.yaml | 21:34 |
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| vgridnev | stevebaker, ok, thanks for understanding. waiting for some reviews on 353585 | 21:39 |
| vgridnev | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/353585/ | 21:39 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jason Dunsmore proposed openstack/heat: Allow a stack with invalid resolved properties to be updated https://review.openstack.org/324898 | 21:40 |
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| ayoung | stevebaker, zaneb thanks. I think I can piece together an approach from this. Taking notes. I'll try to write it up somewhat coherently. | 22:07 |
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