Tuesday, 2016-02-09

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SamYaplelk/win 3601:48
SamYapleoops01:48
SamYapleignore me!01:48
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openstackgerritKevin Carter proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Updated config parsing for listOPS  https://review.openstack.org/27766002:31
openstackgerritKevin Carter proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Updated config parsing for listOPS  https://review.openstack.org/27766102:32
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openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs: Fact caching  https://review.openstack.org/27750302:43
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logan-it seems like the <service>_bin variables taht the sudoers template uses do not get set correctly when venvs are disabled02:53
logan-they all point to the venv paths02:54
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logan-oh I see, it drops the sudoers file in _pre_install and then sets the nova_bin fact in _post_install02:58
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-ansible-galera_client: Remove Xtrabackup from Galera client role  https://review.openstack.org/27718603:09
openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs: Multiple store backends in Glance  https://review.openstack.org/27767203:10
mhaydenohai2u neillc03:14
neillcheya mhayden :-)03:14
neillchello everyone o/03:14
cloudnulllogan-: is that a bug ?03:16
logan-yep.03:16
cloudnull:(03:16
cloudnullis it an ordering issue ?03:17
logan-i assume sudoers is dropped in preinstall because it needs to be there when the services start, and the fact can't be set until all of the services are installed because it is just using `which` to find the dir03:17
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logan-so maybe after pip packages are installed, but before init setup, the fact should be set and then sudoers dropped03:18
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logan-that fact needs to be there before sudoers is built otherwise you just get the default, which is venv path03:19
cloudnullseems like we can move https://github.com/openstack/openstack-ansible/blob/master/playbooks/roles/os_cinder/tasks/cinder_pre_install.yml#L92-L101 to post install03:19
cloudnullyea moved to after https://github.com/openstack/openstack-ansible/blob/master/playbooks/roles/os_cinder/tasks/cinder_post_install.yml#L8503:21
cloudnullwould do it03:21
logan-yep03:21
logan-looks like it03:21
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logan-should the fact be set at the beginning of post_install? I don't know if any of the roles use *_bin in the other templates03:22
logan-it seems like that might avoid problems down the road even if there are no templates besides sudoers relying on it right now03:22
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openstackgerritKevin Carter proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Changed the ordering for sudoers where used  https://review.openstack.org/27767403:27
cloudnull^ logan-03:27
cloudnulltry that and let me know how it fairs03:27
logan-ok thanks, picking it now03:29
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openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs: Centralized logging  https://review.openstack.org/27767503:31
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mhaydenneillc: i wonder if we can s/Image service/glance/03:34
neillcI would have no problem with that03:35
neillcbut, I really feel like I'm being excessively picky anyway03:35
neillcAt least it proves I'm actually reading what I review?03:35
mhaydenhaha03:36
mhaydenperhaps we could say "Image service (glance)" one time03:36
mhaydenand then use glance after that03:36
neillcworks for me03:36
mhaydeni'll defer to karen or odyssey4me  on that one03:37
mhaydenbut i'm glad to know i'm not crazy03:37
* mhayden puts an arm around neillc03:37
neillcprobably wise03:37
mhaydenor well, at least not crazy on this particular issue03:37
* neillc backs away slowly...03:37
* neillc making soothing sounds03:38
mhaydenhaha03:38
mhaydenneillc: things good in AU?03:38
neillcyep, gradually getting back up to speed. was at linux.conf.au last week which is always fun03:39
mhaydeni still need to make it down there sometime03:39
mhaydeni've heard LCA is awesome03:39
neillcdefinitely, and yes way awesome - my favourite conference03:39
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openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs: Cinder backups in Ceph  https://review.openstack.org/27767703:50
cloudnullim off to sleep. see you all in the morro w03:50
mhaydenenjoy, cloudnull03:50
cloudnullill try :)03:50
cloudnullill leave this here, but if any would be reviewers are around I'd love to get this looked at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/271423/03:52
* mhayden ganders03:52
cloudnullcheers all03:52
mhaydenoh this review has my name on it03:53
mhaydenso i must look :)03:53
neillcooh scary review03:53
mhaydenah, i think i looked at a previous rev of this review03:55
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openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs: L3HA  https://review.openstack.org/27768004:14
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openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs/Reno: Keystone config updates for liberty  https://review.openstack.org/27768204:34
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openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs: Manual nova_spice_console removal  https://review.openstack.org/27768605:18
openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs/Reno: Updated repo build process  https://review.openstack.org/27768905:26
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v1k0d3nnot sure if anyone is here, but i have a question on services in openstack-ansible...07:14
v1k0d3ni'm typically used to restarting ubuntu services with service xxx restart, or by using a script in /etc/rcx.d/xxxx restart...but i can't seem to find what i'm looking for. :-/07:15
odyssey4memorning v1k0d3n07:15
v1k0d3ni want to restart nova services for each of the nova running containers07:15
v1k0d3nhey man, good morning. back your time already?07:15
v1k0d3nlol07:15
odyssey4mev1k0d3n we have configured everything with upstart, so the scripts should be there07:15
odyssey4mev1k0d3n yep, it's 7:16am07:16
v1k0d3ni'm still learning...thanks for being patient07:17
v1k0d3ni'll have a lot of questions...esp coming from a RH background07:17
v1k0d3nah, that was it. thank you odyssey4me!07:19
v1k0d3noh wait..i spoke too soon...07:21
v1k0d3ni'm not familiar with upstart07:22
odyssey4mev1k0d3n you can use start <service name> - ir the init style 'service <servicename> start' - either should work07:22
odyssey4mewhich service are you trying to start/restart?07:23
odyssey4meeach nova container will have a different service name, just to confuse the heck out of you :p07:23
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v1k0d3nwell, i made changes in nova conf to configure a different domain than openstacklocal (/etc/nova/nova.conf)07:23
odyssey4mev1k0d3n did you implement that as a user_variable, or change them manually?07:24
v1k0d3nso i was thinking that i could either go into the container and issue service nova-xxx restart and that would work.07:25
v1k0d3nmanually...was really just testing the way i knew from before...07:25
odyssey4mewell, it's worth noting that there are two user vars that pertain to that as the domain name goes across two services - nova and neutron07:26
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v1k0d3nright, i didn't mention neutron, but i have that one too07:26
odyssey4meso there's nova_dhcp_domain and neutron_dhcp_domain, but we have a convenience var called 'dhcp_domain' that'll be used in both by default07:26
v1k0d3nstarted with nova07:26
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odyssey4mebut anyway07:27
v1k0d3nstill learning, this will make more sense as i spend time with it.07:27
v1k0d3nbeen only a week so far...07:27
odyssey4meso the nova services are - you may have to refresh my memory if I miss one of the containers07:27
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odyssey4mebut they'll be nova-api-os-compute, nova-api (I think?), nova-compute, nova-consoleauth07:28
odyssey4menova-conductor, nova-api-metadata07:28
odyssey4methis sets up the init files: https://github.com/openstack/openstack-ansible/blob/liberty/playbooks/roles/os_nova/tasks/nova_upstart_init.yml07:29
v1k0d3ninteresting, i thought a status-all would've displayed that...07:29
v1k0d3ndid seem to though07:29
v1k0d3nlet me check again, make sure i have it right. it's really late, so i could be going a little wacky right now.07:30
odyssey4megrep playbooks/roles/os_nova/defaults/main.yml for '_program_name' for the list of possible services07:30
v1k0d3nawesome, that is super helpful.07:34
v1k0d3nso recommended is to obviously use variables for this in the future...07:34
v1k0d3nthis project is just incredible. i'm so amazed at the work that goes into this...07:34
v1k0d3nRDO is so different, but this is by far my favorite distro and distro method.07:35
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odyssey4mev1k0d3n yeah, the vars ensure that when you re-run the play (to get an updated version) then your environment remains consistent08:48
odyssey4mesorry, was driving to work :)08:49
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odyssey4mehughsaunders can you make head or tail of http://logs.openstack.org/60/277660/1/check/gate-openstack-ansible-linters/03da9ae/console.html#_2016-02-09_02_32_21_594 ?08:56
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Resolve bashate violation E005 and add notes about bashate E006 exception  https://review.openstack.org/27661509:16
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Add bashate E040 exception  https://review.openstack.org/27774709:27
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Resolve bashate violation E005 and add notes about bashate E006 exception  https://review.openstack.org/27661509:29
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Update bashate lint checks re: E005, E006, E040  https://review.openstack.org/27661509:30
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Update bashate lint checks re: E005, E006, E040  https://review.openstack.org/27661609:32
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odyssey4memattt hughsaunders any objections to https://review.openstack.org/277747 before I apply the exception across all repositories?09:34
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evrardjphello everyone09:39
evrardjpodyssey4me: you're there?09:39
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odyssey4meo/ evrardjp - good morning!09:43
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evrardjpgood morning09:48
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evrardjpCould someone give me an input on this one? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/26486211:24
evrardjpbefore rewriting it, I'd rather have another view11:24
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openstackgerritJean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Workarounding the upstream apt bug temporarily  https://review.openstack.org/27779911:48
evrardjpodyssey4me: ^ for you as a PoC, that's what you meant right?11:48
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odyssey4meevrardjp will take a look - just reviewing some other stuff right now12:03
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odyssey4meevrardjp done :)12:38
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evrardjpodyssey4me: I'll adapt the commit to add all the others which behaves the same way12:42
evrardjpbut you're ok with the idea, so that's fine12:42
odyssey4meevrardjp yep - I'd like to see whether it actually works as well - did you test it?12:43
odyssey4methe gate check is still running12:43
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evrardjphard to say, my cache was recent when this ran12:43
odyssey4meso it skipped in your test - maybe try a really short timeout (like 0 or 1) ?12:43
odyssey4meconfirm that it actually does the update12:44
evrardjpyeah, it's still WIP, I'll try with a short timeout12:44
evrardjpit was just to make sure you're ok with the idea12:44
evrardjpbecause we are adding a unusual variable name, etc.12:45
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mhaydenmornin'13:10
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mhaydenodyssey4me: FWIW, i have a branch together for getting octavia deployed with OSA -> https://github.com/major/openstack-ansible/commit/47c013219e885af9bf0e1a1d378d04de2b46412013:19
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mhaydenit works, but building the amphora vm is still manual for the moment13:19
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cloudnullmorning13:25
mhaydenOHAI2uthere cloudnull13:25
cloudnullodyssey4me mattt hughsaunders andymccr stevelle d34dh0r53 when you guys get a chance, we need https://review.openstack.org/#/c/277579/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/277660/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/277661/ -- it was discovered yesterday that if you set a listOP using the config template oslo config is not processing the list item with brackets in it which causes the service to stacktrace and die.13:28
cloudnullsigmavirus24_awa: found that ^13:28
hughsaundersoh dear13:28
cloudnullthe code exists in oslo config to do it, however because of an oversight there its never reached13:29
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evrardjpmorning mhayden cloudnull hughsaunders13:32
cloudnullo/ evrardjp13:32
hughsaundersword evrardjp13:32
hughsaundersI clicked your link earlier but realised you want an opinion from someone who isn't me..13:33
evrardjpisn't you or miguel IIRC13:33
evrardjpit's not personal, just to have more eyes on it13:34
openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs: Centralized logging  https://review.openstack.org/27767513:35
mhaydenweird... sphinx keeps segfaulting in my python 2.7.11 venv13:35
mhaydenas well as my 2.7.10 venv13:35
* mhayden scratches his head13:35
odyssey4memhayden time for us to make use of https://github.com/openstack/ansible-role-diskimage-builder ? pabelanger would really like that :)13:35
openstackgerritJean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Only update apt cache if necessary  https://review.openstack.org/27779913:35
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hughsaundersmhayden: the sphinx wants to be free13:36
mhaydenhughsaunders: it cannot have that much freedom13:36
mhayden:P13:36
mhaydenodyssey4me: ah, didn't know that repo existed :)13:36
* mhayden tips his hat to palendae13:36
mhaydenerr pabelanger13:36
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evrardjpmhayden: I'd be happy to learn how to make use of ansible-role-diskimage-builder13:42
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mhaydenodyssey4me: i understand about the upgrade section -- what did you mean about list items?13:50
mhaydenhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/277682/1/releasenotes/notes/keystone-config-update-liberty-43b3d4a2b3d20fbc.yaml13:50
mhaydenodyssey4me: ah, nevermind -- found the link for the fully parsed release notes and i see what you mean13:53
pabelangermhayden: odyssey4me: nice. What are using it for?13:54
mhaydenpabelanger: i think odyssey4me mentioned it in the context of octavia/amphora13:54
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evrardjpinteresting work on octavia mhayden13:57
mhaydenthanks13:57
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pabelangermhayden: ah. Never used octavia / amphora yet13:59
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mhaydenit's... interesting14:00
mhaydeni also stumbled upon astara after investigating octavia14:00
mhaydendamn, fixed my segfaults in sphinx by using clang with pyenv14:00
evrardjpdon't know astara will check14:01
mhaydenfrom what a fellow racker tells me, it replaces neutron's l3 bits14:01
mhaydenneutron still does l214:01
mhaydenbut astara does the l3 routing, vpnaas, fwaas, lbaas14:01
mhaydeninside a vM14:02
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evrardjpit's a replacement of the curent neutron l3 agents part then?14:04
openstackgerritKevin Carter proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-plugins: Updated config parsing for listOPS  https://review.openstack.org/27757914:05
evrardjpI remember cloudstack when I hear a l3 vm :)14:05
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openstackgerritKevin Carter proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-plugins: Updated config parsing for listOPS  https://review.openstack.org/27757914:06
odyssey4memhayden yeah, it looks pretty interesting14:07
openstackgerritKevin Carter proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Updated config parsing for listOPS  https://review.openstack.org/27766014:08
odyssey4mecloudnull we need https://review.openstack.org/277747 to merge, then https://review.openstack.org/276616 and https://review.openstack.org/276615 to follow in order to land more patches14:08
odyssey4mehughsaunders ^14:08
openstackgerritKevin Carter proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Updated config parsing for listOPS  https://review.openstack.org/27766114:09
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cloudnullhughsaunders: updated the listOP patches w/. the bug info14:09
odyssey4meotherwise the listOPS patches won't merge, thanks to lint failure introduced by a new bashate14:10
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cloudnullodyssey4me:  done14:11
odyssey4mecool, thanks14:12
cloudnullodyssey4me:  with cross project linking, do we need to do the ceremonial -2 while waiting on a master patch ?14:13
cloudnullreferring to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/277660/14:13
odyssey4mecloudnull if the master patch may change, yes - that's why premature backporting is discouraged14:14
cloudnullbeing that many things exist cross project now due to IRR i dont think that practice is needed any longer if the "Depends-On: ..." key word is used14:14
odyssey4methere is no telling whether the actual patch in master may require changes, and having to verify that the backport is consistent adds an extra burden on reviewers14:14
cloudnullhowever its not really premature any longer .14:15
cloudnullits not a backport14:15
cloudnullthe changes in liberty and kilo are within their own code path.14:15
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cloudnulljust raising the question14:15
odyssey4methe point is to have an agreed solution in master before trying to introduce the solution into other branches14:16
matttif they're not straight backports then i wouldn't think it's necessary14:16
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cloudnullodyssey4me:  liberty to kilo is a backport the solution in master will never agree or directly port/cherry-pick so long as the change exists within an IRR role14:17
cloudnullthe code may be shared but liberty and kilo are stand alone when compared to master.14:17
odyssey4mefrom http://docs.openstack.org/developer/openstack-ansible/developer-docs/contribute.html#backporting - "Backporting is defined as the act of reproducing a change from another branch. Unclean/squashed/modified cherry-picks and complete reimplementations are OK."14:17
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cloudnullanother branch being the key word14:17
cloudnullthese are other projects.14:17
odyssey4meit's not about the cherry pick - it's about agreeing on the final solution before we go ahead with implementing it in another branch14:18
odyssey4methe same principle applies to me14:18
cloudnullopenstack-ansible-plugins / galera_server are standalong projects14:18
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cloudnull*stand-alone14:18
odyssey4meI have no problem with having the review there, but not until the final solution is agreed to - doing it beforehand increases the burden of review on the reviewers.14:19
odyssey4meonce a solution is agreed to and finalised (ie committed), then it's easier to compare14:19
cloudnullI agree with you as long as its a change within the same project. i think its a bit of a misnomer to be applied cross project.14:20
cloudnulli think its worth getting sorted14:21
cloudnullbecause this will come up more and more14:21
evrardjpI agree14:22
odyssey4meit's tackling the same code, and therefore a solution must be final before being applied to the same code elsewhere14:22
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odyssey4meI don't see why this makes no sense.14:22
odyssey4meit's only seperate projects now because some roles are seperated and some aren't - in effect the solution is being applied to the same code14:23
matttodyssey4me: i agree w/ that14:23
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mattti initially thought if separate repos then why not -- but you are right if the review changes dramatically in master then a) reviewers have more work to do and b) it wastes the committer's time as they have to update all in flight reviews to be consistent14:24
matttso based on that i'd rather see it land in master and then trickle down14:24
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cloudnullthe point is that the roles match now.14:25
cloudnullwhich will change.14:25
odyssey4meyes, and in that case the concept still applies14:25
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odyssey4methe solution should be agreed to in the lead development branch of whichever roles/repos they affect14:26
odyssey4meonce those are merged, then backporting fixes can take place14:26
odyssey4methe backports may be of an entirely different form, if they need to be14:26
odyssey4mebut fixes need to start at the head14:27
evrardjpsorry to interrupt the conversation, but isn't it something worth a point on the next meeting?14:27
* odyssey4me one better - we can discuss at the mid cycle: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-ansible-mitaka-midcycle14:28
odyssey4mesee 'contributor documentation update'14:28
cloudnullthat'd be a good forum for this14:28
odyssey4mealso see 'Independent Role Release Strategy'14:28
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evrardjpI have a strong opinion on this for contributor's sake :D I'll join this talk!14:30
cloudnullI can already see the roles diverging from whats in liberty and more so in Kilo and so a "backport" cant work in the same sense as a cherry-pick/backport within the same project which is why I think we have to start using cross project linking14:30
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evrardjpand thank you everyone for jumping on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/26486214:30
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matttcloudnull: yeah but the gist of the change should remain consistent14:30
matttirrespective of how it's implemented (IRR, etc.)14:30
odyssey4mecloudnull yes, we defined backport as not necessarily a cherry pick - it could be a whole reimplementation14:30
evrardjpI'll rewrite now :)14:31
odyssey4mebut the concept still stands - get the solution into head first so that all review discussion is ironed out and concerns are covered... then other solutions can e looked at14:31
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cloudnullmattt:  i agree the gist should remain the same however this is like vendoring oslo changes in glance, nova, and keystone. i know its all under the same OSA umbrella but we have cross project changes now and working directly on head doesnt really make sense when the code no longer exists in the respective branches.14:33
cloudnullthis is the same problem neutron has with its various sub-projects14:33
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cloudnullso we might be able to pull prior art from them14:34
matttcloudnull: all that aside -- you are perfectly happy if feedback is added to one review to go and have to rework the other remaining reviews?14:34
matttwhat benefit do you get having these reviews open in tandem ?14:35
matttall i see is more work, both from whoever submits the reviews and those who have to review14:35
cloudnullthe change isnt forgotten14:35
matttwell that's dumb14:35
mattt:)14:35
matttwe should fix the problem then!14:35
cloudnullif its added into an IRR role, the likely hood that it never makes it back to liberty / kilo is really high14:36
odyssey4mebackports are not a given thing that must happen for every bug fix14:36
odyssey4mestable branches aren't stable if every fix is backported14:36
cloudnullthis is trueish14:36
matttcloudnull: i totally know what you mean, but i think adding all that work is the wrong way to approach this14:36
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cloudnullodyssey4me:  we dont have stable branches14:37
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-ansible-plugins: Updated config parsing for listOPS  https://review.openstack.org/27757914:37
cloudnullmitaka may be our first stable branch if you release it that way14:37
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cloudnullbut until now we have feature branches14:37
mattti think this method of creating reviews up front wastes people's time14:38
odyssey4mecloudnull yes, but deployers are expecting stability from what is produced from the project14:38
matttand people could spend review time more effectively if they're not reviewing stuff that is likely to chain due to another review14:38
cloudnullstability in the tags, i agree14:38
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mattts/chain/change/14:38
cloudnullmattt:  that can be achieved simply by only reviewing changes, cross project, in master14:39
cloudnullhttps://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:%255Eopenstack/openstack-ansible.*+branch:master+status:open,n,z14:39
odyssey4methere was not a single bug registered for that issue - which means that no-one encountered the issue in production - which means that there actually isn't a need for it to be backported14:39
cloudnulland only those changes. then reviewers arent worried about whats in liberty/kilo14:39
odyssey4meif someone did hit it, it could be backported at that time and released in the next tag14:39
cloudnullodyssey4me: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154358814:40
openstackLaunchpad bug 1543588 in openstack-ansible "using a listOP with config_template in an INI file will break openstack services" [Medium,Fix released] - Assigned to Kevin Carter (kevin-carter)14:40
cloudnullif we're still talking about that issue in particular14:40
odyssey4mecloudnull yes, you registered that after being asked to by hughsaunders :)14:40
cloudnullyup14:40
cloudnullbut there is a single bug14:40
cloudnull:)14:40
mattti think we're done here14:41
odyssey4me:p14:41
mattt:P14:41
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cloudnullpoint being that we're adding blockers to changes that may relate but are different.14:42
cloudnulland i think that process is more work14:43
cloudnullby itself14:43
odyssey4meand in my view, what you're doing creates more work for the reviewers14:43
cloudnulli disagree. especially if the review has a depends on key word14:44
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cloudnulla review can know, from the commit message, that there are cross project dependencies before ever reviewing any code14:45
cloudnullso no additional work needed14:45
matttwe should discuss this in the meeting14:45
matttwould be good to get more opinion14:45
cloudnull++14:46
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cloudnullsimply put IMHO -- the changes match now, but they wont soon and re-implementation from an IRR role into openstack-ansible (the main repo) isn't a backport as we have it defined today.14:47
evrardjpprepare your points on an etherpad, and put it as a subject to a meeting. Then answer questions in the meeting, and vote at the end. case closed ;)14:48
evrardjppreparing the points on an etherpad is good for the readers14:49
evrardjpand for decision making14:49
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evrardjpjust my opinion14:50
cloudnull+114:50
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cloudnullodyssey4me mattt i almost think we need to adopt something like http://docs.openstack.org/developer/neutron/stadium/sub_project_guidelines.html14:55
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cloudnulland if we enfore the change in HEAD before re-implementing in liberty/kilo thats fine however I think we need something to spell that out.14:57
cloudnulland guard against a few other things that we're likely to run into14:58
BjoernHi folks, do we have any plans when OSA adopts ansible v2 ?14:58
matttBjoern: is this regarding ceph-ansible?  :)14:58
Bjoernyeoo14:58
Bjoernyepp14:58
matttBjoern: hehe, yeah saw that issue also14:59
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Bjoernadded my opinion to postpone v2 on ceph-ansible15:01
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odyssey4mecloudnull that's exactly what I'd like us to discuss and put together at the mid cycle15:02
odyssey4meit's long overdue15:02
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cloudnullBjoern: odyssey4me may have more on that -- but i wouldn't say it'll be first class in mitaka15:03
odyssey4meBjoern Ansible v2 will be next cycle15:03
cloudnullodyssey4me:  i updated the etherpad15:03
odyssey4meBjoern all we aim for now is to be Ansible 2 compatible, and thanks to jmccrory we should be15:03
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* cloudnull driving in15:04
Bjoernare we already using the new find module to get rid of the ls shell commands ?15:04
odyssey4meBjoern we will use nothing that doesn't work in Ansible 1.915:05
odyssey4menot until the next cycle15:06
Bjoernmitaka or post ?15:06
odyssey4meBjoern next cycle is Newton15:06
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Bjoernok15:07
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openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs/Reno: Keystone config updates for liberty  https://review.openstack.org/27768215:27
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gparaskevasodyssey4me: cloudnull -> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/276672/  && https://review.openstack.org/#/c/276712/ :))))15:31
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odyssey4meevrardjp one more change to https://review.openstack.org/277799 and we're good, then the other repositories need similar changes15:37
openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs/Reno: Updated repo build process  https://review.openstack.org/27768915:38
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evrardjpodyssey4me: sure15:40
evrardjpplease don't validate it directly it's not tested enough :p15:41
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openstackgerritMajor Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs/Reno: Updated repo build process  https://review.openstack.org/27768915:42
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openstackgerritJean-Philippe Evrard proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Only update apt cache if necessary  https://review.openstack.org/27779915:45
evrardjpodyssey4me: I got no time remaining. ^ is my last version for today, you can continue if needed15:46
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mhaydeni have a weird minor upgrade question15:54
mhaydenif i go from 12.0.5 -> 12.0.7, do i need to rebuild the repo server?15:54
mhaydenthe new pip configs dropped on containers seem to look for a 12.0.7 directory on the repo server (which doesn't exist)15:54
Bjoernafaik, yes you have to build pips for every single release15:55
mhaydenalrighty15:55
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Check local and upstream repo for pip before using pypi  https://review.openstack.org/27790515:56
odyssey4memhayden yes, every tag has updated pip wheels so it does require the repo to be updated15:56
mhaydenthat makes sense15:56
palendaemhayden: Yeah, minor versions will carry their own wheels in order to maintain consistency15:56
palendaeOr at least try15:56
mhaydenodyssey4me: imma make a docs bug :)15:56
odyssey4memhayden FYI http://docs.openstack.org/developer/openstack-ansible/install-guide/app-minorupgrade.html15:56
palendaegiven ^ is the docs bug, "i didn't read the docs"? :p15:57
mhaydenam i missing the step there to rebuild the repo server?15:57
* mhayden rereads15:57
palendaeAh, yeah, you're right15:57
palendaeIt doesn't explicitly call out rebuilding the wheel repo15:57
odyssey4meuh, setup-infrastructure does that15:58
palendaeThat's in setup-infra15:58
mhaydenwould that be 'openstack-ansible repo-install.yml' ?15:58
odyssey4mebut I see numbering is broken :)15:58
mhaydenodyssey4me: well, step 1 is really long15:58
mhaydenso long, that step 8 comes next15:58
odyssey4merepo-build, technically15:58
palendaeodyssey4me: Right, setup-infra has it, but that's still not explicitly calling it out unless you read that play15:58
odyssey4mebut all the plays were added there to cover possibilities for other bugs being fixed too15:58
mhaydeni guess that should come after 'cd playbooks'?15:59
openstackgerritGeorge Paraskevas proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-rabbitmq_server: Create Rabbitmq admin user for web administration  https://review.openstack.org/27667215:59
palendaeSo yes, it's in there if you know that setup-infra has repo-build in it15:59
odyssey4menope, it must be done in the order presented15:59
odyssey4methe instructions are complete15:59
mhaydenso there's no bug?16:00
odyssey4menope, just the numbering needs fixing16:00
palendaerepo-install.yml is the 2nd play in setup-infrastructure in master16:01
mhaydenah16:01
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palendaeWhich will call repo-build16:01
odyssey4meright, so bug triage everyone :)16:01
mhaydenhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154364516:01
openstackLaunchpad bug 1543645 in openstack-ansible "Minor upgrade numbering in documentation is broken" [Undecided,New]16:01
gparaskevasodyssey4me: Hello Jesse thanks for the comment, i am working on them. About adding a reelase note how do i do that?16:01
michaelguginohere16:02
odyssey4mefirst up: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154053116:02
openstackLaunchpad bug 1540531 in openstack-ansible "Upgrade issues with 'Create log aggregation links'" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to Nolan Brubaker (nolan-brubaker)16:02
palendaeodyssey4me: Working on it now, I have a suspicion it's a teardown.sh bug16:02
odyssey4mepalendae ok cool - will leave it as-is for now then16:02
odyssey4menext: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154212116:03
openstackLaunchpad bug 1542121 in openstack-ansible "swift container-reconciler error connecting to memcached" [Undecided,New]16:03
odyssey4meandymccr ^16:03
andymccrlooking quick.16:04
andymccri'll take that16:05
odyssey4meok cool, thanks16:05
odyssey4menext up: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154239116:06
openstackLaunchpad bug 1542391 in openstack-ansible "ceilometer swift pollster returns 403" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to Miguel Alejandro Cantu (miguel-cantu)16:06
odyssey4mealextricity25 I see that you have this16:06
odyssey4menext up: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154251316:07
openstackLaunchpad bug 1542513 in openstack-ansible "use of config_template plugin breaks ceilometer.conf" [Undecided,New]16:07
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odyssey4mestevelle are you around?16:08
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odyssey4mestevelle this may be fixed by https://review.openstack.org/277579 ?16:09
odyssey4menext up: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154314616:09
openstackLaunchpad bug 1543146 in openstack-ansible "Repo sync not complete before attempting to install packages" [Undecided,New]16:09
odyssey4meI know that hughsaunders is working on a fix for that16:10
odyssey4meit happens when the repo gets really big, and we've discussed a good way to get that resolved.16:10
hughsaundersyep16:10
odyssey4menext up: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154361516:10
openstackLaunchpad bug 1543615 in openstack-ansible "haproxy multiple config file failures" [Undecided,New]16:10
automagicallyThat looks like an enhancement/feature request more than a bug16:11
automagicallyShould be part of the systemd blueprint plans maybe16:11
odyssey4meyeah, seems like it16:11
odyssey4mewe should perhaps revert to using an haproxy role from ansible galaxy - or otherwise I know that evrardjp was working on something better16:12
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odyssey4meok, it's linked to the systemd and haproxy blueprints16:13
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odyssey4menext up: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-ansible/+bug/154364516:14
openstackLaunchpad bug 1543645 in openstack-ansible "Minor upgrade numbering in documentation is broken" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to Ala Raddaoui (raddaoui-ala)16:14
odyssey4mewow mhayden that was picked up quickly16:15
mhaydenodyssey4me: yeah, mr. raddaoui is all over it16:15
odyssey4mewoohoo!16:15
mhayden(i offered cookies)16:15
mhaydenor perhaps there is cake16:15
odyssey4mealright, that's bugs done for this week16:16
odyssey4menote to everyone that mid cycle proposed sessions can still be proposed - I've added some: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-ansible-mitaka-midcycle16:16
odyssey4meplease add proposed sessions or vote for those that are already there16:16
stevellebtw, no that review does not address that bug odyssey4me16:16
stevelleceilometer is NOT using a single-line list format, and will not accept that format16:17
odyssey4mestevelle :/16:17
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v1k0d3nhey, have a question...16:18
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odyssey4mestevelle that's odd though, because part of the justification of the patch was because the oslo library for config in openstack use the format supported by that review16:19
v1k0d3nnoticed that ironic is not yet supported as a role yet...16:19
odyssey4mestevelle so is ceilometer bucking the trend?16:19
stevelleodyssey4me: predates16:19
odyssey4mev1k0d3n it's in development already - https://github.com/mrda/openstack-ansible-ironic16:19
openstackgerritAndy McCrae proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Move swift memcache conf into separate file  https://review.openstack.org/27792816:20
v1k0d3noh that'a awesome!16:20
odyssey4mestevelle so does that mean it's something that Ceilometer needs to change?16:20
v1k0d3nis this going to be merged soon, you think?16:20
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odyssey4meand thus we need to figure out a workaround in the meantime16:20
odyssey4mev1k0d3n when the authors are comfortable for it to be imported into the openstack namespace, yes - we hope to release it with Mitaka16:21
stevelleodyssey4me: I cannot speak for telemetry on this, but they are urls and putting them in single line format is not practical16:21
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v1k0d3nthat's awesome. is there documentation on how to add projects like these to current deployments for testing purposes?16:21
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odyssey4mestevelle but the format is along the lines of http://pastebin.com/ChjnKv3y16:22
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odyssey4mev1k0d3n http://docs.openstack.org/developer/openstack-ansible/developer-docs/extending.html#adding-galaxy-roles16:22
odyssey4mev1k0d3n you can have your own role requirements file, and set the env var so that bootstrap-ansible uses it16:23
odyssey4memhayden that section could probably do with a little more detail :)16:23
mhaydenodyssey4me: which?16:24
odyssey4memhayden the dev docs section about adding additional galaxy roles16:24
odyssey4meit might be good to explain, as an example, how one would add an ntp role/playbook16:24
mhaydenah, it probably could16:24
odyssey4memichaelgugino have you managed to get a link to the work on DVR that automagically and the rest of us can review and see where we can help?16:25
michaelguginoit's on my todo list for today16:26
automagicallymichaelgugino: Awesome16:26
cloudnullstevelle / odyssey4me: was just talking to alextricity25 about that bug. ceilometer is using MultiStrOpt which is another bug all together.16:26
cloudnullwell not a bug, but is an issue ...16:27
stevelleodyssey4me / cloudnull right16:27
odyssey4meit's a hard one, because the whole point of configtemplate is to allow overrides of anything that may already be there16:27
cloudnullthey expect a string to be set as16:27
cloudnullkey = var116:27
cloudnullkey = var216:28
cloudnulletc16:28
cloudnullthey dont follow comma seperated or \n16:28
cloudnullalextricity25: just gave both a go...16:28
jmccrorycloudnull problem is configparser using http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5396144/python-config-parser-duplicate-key-support/5396653#5396653, so it's just going to enforce unique keys16:28
odyssey4memaybe the action plugin needs an extra setting to allow key duplication?16:28
jmccroryusing a dict*16:28
cloudnulljmccrory:  i actually attempted to subclass the ordered dict to allow for list extend when multi string op is found and while it worked it didnt write the values out as i'd expect16:29
cloudnullalso as an override its hard to know if the list is comma seperated or MultiStrOpt16:30
stevelleit's nasty, but we could specify keys which should be treated as multistropt in the ansible task16:33
cloudnulljmccrory odyssey4me i gave this a go late yesterday but it wasnt working16:33
cloudnullhttp://cdn.pasteraw.com/msfyiffyxp22qxd4b3bjb84k94e1jmu16:34
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cloudnulli mean it read the config in however writing it back out wasn't what i was expecting16:34
mhaydenwhoa, HA DVR finally merged -> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/143169/16:34
mhayden85 patchsets! they beat me on the ansible bootstrap :|16:34
cloudnull:)16:35
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odyssey4mehaha, nice!16:35
palendaemhayden: I think I've seen stuff with 100+16:35
odyssey4meand there's a releasenote too :)16:35
cloudnullodyssey4me stevelle jmccrory we need to figure out support for https://github.com/openstack/oslo.config/blob/master/oslo_config/cfg.py#L68-L7816:36
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cloudnullthe hard part is knowing the difference between list and multistring16:37
odyssey4megit-harry you've been digging into some of this recently - thoughts?16:37
cloudnullthe changes just merged now properly support the listop but multistring is a whole different thing ...16:38
odyssey4meperhaps the easiest way is to use a particular yaml structure for each16:38
odyssey4me?16:38
cloudnullthat would work, but that would mean the ini overrides have a different data structure than the rest of json and yml overrides.16:39
cloudnullwhich may be ok16:39
alextricity25are you saying we read in INI files as yaml?16:40
stevellemultistr undermines config_template16:40
stevelleit's just nasty16:40
cloudnullalextricity25: kinda, its {section: {key: value} }16:41
cloudnullwe have no notion of "type"16:41
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odyssey4mecloudnull another option would be to have an 'openstack_template' action plugin that uses the oslo module to understand what the data should be based on the context16:42
cloudnullthat works for reading data from a config file but not overriding options within it16:42
cloudnullwe almost need something like {section: {key: value, key_cftype: multistring, key_cftype: list }16:44
odyssey4menow if only we expressed configuraiton in XML :p16:44
cloudnull:|16:44
stevellehah16:45
cloudnullbut the hard part of all of this is to write16:45
cloudnullreading is easy16:45
odyssey4mebut yes, perhaps optional keys would be useful - the only trouble is that we risk conflicting with keys in the target16:45
stevelleI'd default to type of list cloudnull16:45
stevelleotherwise I see that working16:45
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odyssey4meyeah, default to list - but have a special key name 'ye-i-really-know-what-im-doing'16:46
cloudnullyou almost have to do it always. because if the op is multistring and is set in the default template then you have to deal with the syntax issues16:47
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cloudnulleven if you're not overriding an option16:47
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stevelle{template_meta: {multistrings: [ messaging_urls ] } }16:49
jmccroryis this one option the only place openstack configs use multistring?16:49
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-ansible: Update bashate lint checks re: E005, E006, E040  https://review.openstack.org/27661616:50
alextricity25cloudnull said earlier that neutron uses it too16:51
alextricity25uses multistrops16:51
cloudnullyes https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/e3a531a1fa681d7a4aa169b9420f22f068691cbd/neutron/services/provider_configuration.py#L31-L3616:53
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alextricity25I like the idea of having the deployer explicitly define that this option is a MultiStropt16:55
alextricity25Maybe as part of the overrides datastructure(e.g. ceilometer_ceilometer_conf_overrides16:56
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alextricity25then add in the logic in config_template.py to write out that option multiple times in the right section16:56
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stevellemy snippet above is my suggestion of syntax to be added to the overrides structure16:57
alextricity25+116:57
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odyssey4mestevelle ah, so you're suggesting that it be an entirely different var fed into the module which identifies the list of multistrings17:00
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-ansible: Update bashate lint checks re: E005, E006, E040  https://review.openstack.org/27661517:01
cloudnullmost frustrating about all of this17:01
cloudnullservices that support multistrop http://cdn.pasteraw.com/5962shd34yymotua0kthsog1liv4bqe17:01
stevelleodyssey4me: either a different var or it's nested into the override opts themselves as a meta section17:02
cloudnullservices that support listop http://cdn.pasteraw.com/fpkfhnhy7ms72vo6gbk6gj505w8b2x917:02
stevellenot a long list...17:03
odyssey4mebut it's an option that any could use17:03
cloudnullstevelle:  yea and the services that use multistrop we only have to be concered with about 5 total vars17:04
stevelleodyssey4me: yeah, and we can add that list of places to the os roles easily enough to just do this in one place (for now)17:04
stevellenot one place, at one time17:04
cloudnulljmccrory stevelle odyssey4me if you guys have cycles to hack on it i'd appreciate it .17:04
cloudnullim off to my daily beatings (meetings)17:04
stevellemeetings continue until borale improve17:05
odyssey4mestevelle it makes sense on a per template basis as this is something we can derive and populate - we could even possibly derive it on the fly by using oslo.config to generate a list of options which are such, I'd guess?17:07
stevelleI dont think you want to try to do it on the fly17:07
stevellevalue / effort too low17:07
odyssey4meso basically we execute something based on the code we've put down, it gives us a list, we feed that list to the config_template17:08
odyssey4mebut sure, that may be a bit complex for now17:08
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odyssey4memhayden aren't there already other drivers for octavia?17:22
-openstackstatus- NOTICE: Gerrit is restarting now, to alleviate current performance impact and WebUI errors.17:23
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odyssey4megit-harry see https://review.openstack.org/27790517:27
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mhaydenodyssey4me: i think so17:34
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-apt_package_pinning: Revise bashate file finder and add E006,E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799218:00
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-apt_package_pinning: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799218:01
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-galera_client: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799318:02
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-galera_server: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799518:04
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-lxc_container_create: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799718:05
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-lxc_hosts: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799818:06
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-memcached_server: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799918:07
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-openstack_hosts: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27800218:08
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-pip_install: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27800318:10
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-pip_lock_down: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27800418:11
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-py_from_git: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27800618:13
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cloudnulldid we not do a bug triage today ?18:25
cloudnullnevermind18:25
mhaydencloudnull: i think it happened earlier18:25
cloudnulli was in my regularly scheduled beating18:26
odyssey4mecloudnull yep, did it earlier18:27
odyssey4mewhat's up?18:27
cloudnullyea i was afk18:27
cloudnullnothing18:28
cloudnullwas just curious18:28
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-rabbitmq_server: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27801518:29
cloudnullwas looking at our open bugs18:29
cloudnullthats all18:29
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-repo_server: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27801618:30
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-rsyslog_client: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27801718:32
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-rsyslog_server: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27801818:32
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-security: Add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27801918:34
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-lxc_hosts: Set container apt sources to use a configured list of components  https://review.openstack.org/27803318:57
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-ansible: Add bashate E040 exception  https://review.openstack.org/27774718:58
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mhaydenah, they opened up voting for summit talks!19:01
mhaydenhere's mine if anyone wants to vote: https://www.openstack.org/summit/austin-2016/vote-for-speakers/Presentation/704319:01
openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Set AIO host apt sources to use a configured list of components  https://review.openstack.org/27803719:04
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odyssey4merelocating - bbl for the cross-project meeting19:11
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michaelguginoautomagically: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/osa-neutron-dvr19:56
michaelguginoLots to do.  I'm going to start with integrating openvswitch_agent in place of linux_bridge agent.  If I can get a working deploy doing that, then I'll start moving on other things.19:57
automagicallymichaelgugino: Nice, will take a look19:58
michaelguginoDon't get too excited, not much really 'done'.  I was hoping to have OVS integrated by today, but lost time last week fighting with systemd integration.19:59
automagicallymichaelgugino: Fair enough. I think the key thing to hammer out at this point, is how tasking could be separated out so you can get additional contributors from the OSA community working in parallel20:00
automagicallyI’m happy to contribute but don’t want to duplicate effort/step on toes of work you already have in motion/planned20:00
odyssey4meyeah, getting OVS integrated in the same architecture as LB is the first step20:01
odyssey4methat should be just additional packages in some places (net node and compute node I think) and a different ml2 config for the alternative agent20:02
odyssey4meI would guess20:02
odyssey4mehaving that up as a review would be a great start, and allow us to engage with the neutron cores for advice on any changes we may need to make to improve things20:03
odyssey4mewhat might be worth doing is for automagically to work on that, while you continue your DVR PoC hack ?20:04
odyssey4memichaelgugino ^20:04
michaelguginoI was going to do the OVS integration, at least try to.20:05
odyssey4meok, perhaps there's a way that the two of you can bounce work between each other? ie some sort of hand-off20:06
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automagicallyPerhaps, though parallel paths may be easier at first20:06
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odyssey4me:) I'll leave it to the two of you to figure out. Shout if you needs assistance or advice.20:07
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michaelguginoI have uploaded all (might have missed one or two) config files to gh in my repo20:07
automagicallyCool, once I get a chance to read through the repo, I’ll add any thoughts, proposals for task breakdown, etc into the Etherpad20:08
michaelguginothey contain our lab config data (IP's, etc), but we'll need to figure out if we want to converge the templates, or maybe do different templates for each?20:08
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-apt_package_pinning: Update tox config and add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799221:05
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matttsigmavirus24: thanks for updating that bug for me!21:28
sigmavirus24mattt: lifeless and I might have a work around21:28
sigmavirus24mattt: always happy to help21:28
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openstackgerritTravis Truman (automagically) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-openstack_hosts: Correcting role variable commentary to remove outdated value  https://review.openstack.org/27812322:23
sigmavirus24mattt: how high of a priority is that patch because it looks like lifeless wants to defer to me to write the patch22:27
matttsigmavirus24: so mitaka deprecates one of teh wsgi scripts we use now in favour of some wsgi_scripts22:29
matttwe could carry them by hand, it's not a problem ...22:29
matttsigmavirus24: so i'd say it's not crazy urgent22:30
sigmavirus24mattt: can you add a card for all of this tomorrow when you get into the office?22:35
openstackgerritTravis Truman (automagically) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Docs: Removing manual target host steps that are automated  https://review.openstack.org/27813222:38
openstackgerritAla Raddaoui proposed openstack/openstack-ansible: Fixing some typos in documentation  https://review.openstack.org/27813322:39
matttsigmavirus24: yeah suer!22:42
mattt*sure22:42
sigmavirus24Thanks mattt22:45
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openstackgerritJesse Pretorius (odyssey4me) proposed openstack/openstack-ansible-galera_client: Update tox config and add bashate E006, E040 exceptions  https://review.openstack.org/27799323:07
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automagicallyodyssey4me: Hope that latest tox lint change passes gates, was just looking at that myself trying to figure out why they were all failing23:19
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odyssey4meautomagically yeah, I'm doing some more tweaks - there is still some brokenness23:39
odyssey4meI'm trying to also normalise them as much as possible so that they're mostly the same to make it easier to compare23:39
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