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| openstackgerrit | Sahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: Add TOSCA assets https://review.openstack.org/289132 | 04:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: Add TOSCA assets https://review.openstack.org/289132 | 04:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | Omar Shykhkerimov proposed openstack/app-catalog: Create form for making assets https://review.openstack.org/288055 | 11:05 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: Add TOSCA assets https://review.openstack.org/289132 | 14:05 |
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| kfox1111 | so, whats the plan with tosca resources an the horizon plugin? | 17:40 |
| kfox1111 | how are we going to get that integrated? | 17:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | Omar Shykhkerimov proposed openstack/app-catalog: Create form for making assets. https://review.openstack.org/288055 | 18:32 |
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| kzaitsev_mb | wanted to give an update on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/288055/ =) Omar is an intern in Mirantis, and I have partial access to his time =) I've tasked him with making a simple uploading form for assets, while I'm tinkering with auth. | 18:45 |
| kzaitsev_mb | haven't had time to review his work yet, though — it's a holiday today in Russia and my wife and family demanded most of my attention today =). The joys of working in a multi-location company. | 18:46 |
| kzaitsev_mb | I've commented in the review, but had though it would be right to keep you, docaedo, kfox1111 updated here too. ^^ | 18:47 |
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| docaedo | kzaitsev_ws: hi, I have looked at it but have not provided feedback. I basically agree, there's no need to merge PoC code that won't be used in production, and I don't see how that form would be used in production without a *lot* of additional work around it | 19:10 |
| docaedo | so makes sense to have it for the PoC and also useful to share that work, but not sure about this approach | 19:11 |
| openstackgerrit | Sahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: Add TOSCA assets https://review.openstack.org/289132 | 19:48 |
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| kfox1111 | kzaitsev_mb: yeah. I'm ok with it being poc and maybe perpetially WIP'ed forever. but just want to make sure it doesn't go farther then that. Its kind of a dead end. Don't want to spend much review time on it knowing its doa. | 19:57 |
| kfox1111 | tosca question from above still needs discussion. | 19:58 |
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| kfox1111 | not sure how to handle it. I believe the patch is valid, but its not very useful to accept dead code with no current path. | 19:59 |
| kfox1111 | I'm kind of on the fence, but just over on the side where I think every new asset type needs to be supportable by the horizon plugin through some means or another. And I'm not sure what that would look like with tosca. | 20:01 |
| kfox1111 | has that been discussed while I've been away? | 20:01 |
| kfox1111 | Is it reasonable to block the new asset type until that discussion has been had? | 20:04 |
| kfox1111 | do we have a blueprint or something for tosca support? | 20:08 |
| docaedo | There is a blueprint for tosca stuff | 20:19 |
| docaedo | and I don't think it's reasonable to block it waiting for the horizon plugin to handle it, as it's not too difficult to add it to the web site | 20:19 |
| docaedo | and as great as the horizon work is, it's not the primary way people are consuming things from apps.openstack.org :) | 20:20 |
| docaedo | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/app-catalog/+spec/add-tosca-assets | 20:21 |
| openstackgerrit | Sahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: Add TOSCA assets https://review.openstack.org/289132 | 20:23 |
| kfox1111 | heh. I'm not sure how most users consume from the catalog honestly. do we have metrics? | 20:24 |
| kfox1111 | thanks for the link. | 20:24 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, the blueprint helps. thanks. | 20:24 |
| docaedo | np | 20:24 |
| kfox1111 | so, the first two workitems are done? | 20:25 |
| docaedo | yeah, first two work items on that BP are complete, need to update that section :) | 20:25 |
| kfox1111 | doesn't look like there is a work item for this change. hello world template. | 20:25 |
| kfox1111 | the reason I ask about the app catalog ui stuff, is how do we want to order things: * add new asset types to website, * add new asset types to horizon plugin, * merge unified python server code | 20:28 |
| kfox1111 | or * merge unified python server code, * add new asset type to unified code | 20:28 |
| docaedo | ah fair question - the way I see it, making changes to the web site to support TOSCA assets (the website as-is) will be relatively easy and even it their short term, it's a big benefit to get the catalog looking even slightly new before the next summit | 20:30 |
| docaedo | I know you were planning to work on using a common codebase between the site and horizon plugin, but no idea where that stands, or what the implementation is going to be like | 20:31 |
| docaedo | not to mention whether or not we're going to need to dig up a UI person or a designer to help make it pretty ;) | 20:31 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. well, thats kind of related. if tosca really wants to get in quickly, they could push to get the merge to happen. | 20:32 |
| kfox1111 | I'm guessing I'll have time mid august to work on the merge again. so maybe about a month out if no one can get to it before me. | 20:32 |
| kfox1111 | the UI person is a seperate issue. iether way, we need that. ;) | 20:33 |
| docaedo | mid-august is 6 months out? | 20:33 |
| kfox1111 | sry. April. | 20:33 |
| docaedo | but also it doesn't seem reasonable to me to say to a community that wants to share assets with the app catalog "ok sure, but before we accept this new stuff you need to do some other relatively unrelated work first" | 20:34 |
| docaedo | to me, continuing to improve the web site as-is (cosmetic stuff, plus adjust the layout so it more easily handles an extra asset type or two) seems like it's not a bad way to make progress | 20:35 |
| docaedo | meanwhile there's going to be work with glare stuff happening concurrently, plus the "common codebase for horizon and website" work can progress also in parallel | 20:36 |
| kfox1111 | heh. it hasn't stoped any other openstack project for blocking on cleanup.... they all do that. :/ | 20:38 |
| docaedo | true enough, luckily we're different :D | 20:38 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. I get that. just trying to figure out how to make progress on the blocked common catalog task, | 20:38 |
| docaedo | (also nobody else is dependent on us, unlike other projects - which is a *great* thing IMO) | 20:38 |
| kfox1111 | and the adding yet another thing that will be needed be ported makes the task take longer, not less time. | 20:38 |
| kfox1111 | and the precident thing. if we get solum finally show up or some of the other projects, thats yet more that would need to go through. | 20:39 |
| docaedo | Sure adds more time but should be incredibly minimal, because at the end of the day we are aiming to make the catalog a place for all/any assets, and the catalog shouldn't care too much about what the asset types are | 20:39 |
| kfox1111 | at what point do we pay off the technical debt? | 20:39 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, but the website today isn't built for infinite assets. really just 3. | 20:40 |
| docaedo | I agree that we need to work on the common codebase thing, and I think I could probably make time to start doing that. I still don't want to block adding TOSCA stuff though | 20:40 |
| kfox1111 | we need to ensure our plumbing supports it. I've tried to make it more easy in the shared code to add more asset types. but even it has a few technical debt things that need paying down. | 20:40 |
| kfox1111 | k. since they have shown up and willing to do some work, I won't block it. but how about this, no additional new types until the merge happens, and someone needs to commit to writing the website code first, before the asset is merged? | 20:41 |
| kfox1111 | AND.... | 20:42 |
| kfox1111 | they need to at least think through how the asset type can be added to the plugin. as is now, I'm really not sure how that's going to work. its a cli at the moment, right? | 20:42 |
| docaedo | I can agree with no additional new types for the moment (especially since I think we are in zero danger of that happening) - is there a start to the common codebase work somewhere? I'll admit I haven't even peeked at that new repo | 20:43 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. sec.... | 20:43 |
| docaedo | TOSCA has CLI and horizon stuff AFAIK | 20:43 |
| kfox1111 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/239560/ | 20:43 |
| kfox1111 | where's the horzion stuff? | 20:43 |
| kfox1111 | if that exists, then that would mostly answer the quiestion, and I'd feel alot better about it. | 20:44 |
| docaedo | wait, I might be conflating tosca with mistral | 20:44 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, mistral has a webui. not sure about tusca. | 20:45 |
| kfox1111 | tosca | 20:45 |
| kfox1111 | I think when we talked about it like a month or two ago, we were contimplating running the cli converter thingy on it to generate heat entries and maybe putting them in the assets instead of the raw tosca stuff. | 20:45 |
| kfox1111 | then it would work everywhere. | 20:46 |
| docaedo | yep - tosca parser takes a tosca template and spits out a heat template, but the issue is that if you run it locally, the translator can make a heat template that's tailored to your environment, rather than being a generic template that you'll likely need to adjust/fix | 20:46 |
| docaedo | so that's where that landed last time I talked to anyone about, but I think spzala has more info | 20:47 |
| kfox1111 | so the app catalog ui is totally client side, so you wouldn't be able to call the tosca cli from it. they probably need a horizon plugin. | 20:48 |
| kfox1111 | or we'd have to make a service on apps.openstack.org to do the conversion with the cli tool. but that's really ugly. :/ | 20:48 |
| docaedo | yeah I don't think it's something to worry about too much ATM, though I think there's potential value to having some services (for instance, have an additional link for TOSCA assets that says "run through translator to output heat template") | 20:50 |
| docaedo | similarly, running disk image builder as a service, to create disk images on the fly | 20:50 |
| docaedo | though .. that might actually count as distributing the base OS, which I know Ubuntu frowns on | 20:50 |
| spzala | Hi kfox1111: docaedo: so we have two projects in tosca space, tosca-parser is a just parser for tosca template and heat-translator is another project that takes parsed template in the form of graph and converts it to Heat HOT | 20:51 |
| docaedo | (though I think that would be an incredibly valuable thing to have) | 20:51 |
| spzala | heat-translator is a command line tool only. Last what we decided was for now, use app-catalog to host tosca templates (in yaml and CSAR format) | 20:52 |
| spzala | and that's it for initial support and once that is done. If I remember correctly, heat-translator being only CLI tool that was a problem to run it straight from app-catalog | 20:53 |
| spzala | (i.e. '...and once that is done, we can discuss if heat-translator can be invoked from app-catalog.') | 20:54 |
| kfox1111 | spzala: yeah. we have differering opinions in the group on how users are actually going to consume the app catalog long term. I think the majority of users are going to be consuming it via horizon. | 20:59 |
| kfox1111 | copy and pasting things from a website into a cli is really not user friendly. | 20:59 |
| kfox1111 | still better then nothing, but may cut out 90% of your potential users. | 21:00 |
| docaedo | for me part of the issue though is that the app catalog should always be an outward facing index of things for openstack | 21:00 |
| spzala | kfox1111: Thx. OK, agree. So for now, we can go with our initial plan of enabling hosting of tosca templates and binaries | 21:00 |
| docaedo | if people can only see that content after installing openstack and choosing to include the app-catalog-ui, then they're unlikely to see that | 21:01 |
| kfox1111 | docaedo: at present, yeah. I agree that's a problem too. something we need to really keep pushing hard. | 21:02 |
| kfox1111 | same goes for the website too. if they have to know to look for it, then we fail too. | 21:02 |
| kfox1111 | if its right their in their face in horizon, then we get users. | 21:03 |
| docaedo | sure but in that instance they are already openstack users. the app catalog website on it's own could (should!) bring in users of any cloud | 21:03 |
| docaedo | TBH the biggest problem is that we/openstack lacks a standard way of packaging an app | 21:04 |
| docaedo | so we're trying to solve the problem of getting attention as if we are a PaaS, but it's just on top of a IaaS and you still need to bring something else along to really use it like it's a PaaS | 21:05 |
| kfox1111 | IMHO, the biggest problem openstack has is it doesn't want to admit users that aren't developers are users.... not that I'm bitter about that or anything. :/ | 21:05 |
| docaedo | haha yeah I don't know if I'd agree it's the biggest problem, but lack of agreement on who the users are is definitely an issue | 21:06 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. I think once magnum grows an api that allows you to launch templates on your launched docker orchestration engine, then it will be very interesting. | 21:06 |
| kfox1111 | completely sidesteps nova's unwillingess to recongize users. | 21:07 |
| docaedo | true | 21:07 |
| kfox1111 | until that happens, I'm more and more worried about the app catalog use case being ignored too much. | 21:08 |
| kfox1111 | they have restricted the user definition to operators, and why do operators need an app catalog? they can deploy stuff themselves. | 21:08 |
| kfox1111 | its non ops folks that need the catalog the most. | 21:08 |
| docaedo | I agree on that point, though I think there are plenty of people that want to satisfy the needs of users. The problem is most of those conversations are happening in the working groups, and there's not enough connection back to the core project devs | 21:11 |
| docaedo | So you end up with the unfortunate appearance of a project manager from company X trying to tell a dev at company Y that they need to implement feature X ASAP | 21:12 |
| docaedo | er, make that "feature Z" I guess, in my clumsy analogy :) | 21:12 |
| docaedo | point being, devs are not swayed too much by the project managers trying to convince them what they should work on | 21:12 |
| docaedo | which is really a problem of open source software more than anything - lack of a dictator prioritizing stuff is what we see | 21:13 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. | 21:13 |
| docaedo | (with the natural dev response being "hey, it's open source - you want feature Z, jump in and write up some code!") | 21:13 |
| kfox1111 | heh. the thing that kills me is, | 21:15 |
| kfox1111 | I'm happy the rigt the code and write the feature. they just won't take it because they disagree with thedefinition of 'user'. | 21:15 |
| kfox1111 | I've written the same feature 3 times now. and its still no where close to being accepted. :/ | 21:15 |
| docaedo | oh yeah, I'm not saying that trite answer actually works, because of exactly what you've experienced | 21:16 |
| docaedo | "heat should have conditionals!" | 21:17 |
| docaedo | "OK, write it up, we're busy." | 21:17 |
| docaedo | "Hey, look I wrote this thing, would be great!" | 21:17 |
| docaedo | "Hmm... No thanks, we don't need conditionals." | 21:17 |
| docaedo | I think about this all the time :) it's unfortunately the worst aspect of OpenStack sometimes, the fact that we're so open | 21:17 |
| kfox1111 | just frustrated and blowing off steam... | 21:18 |
| kfox1111 | I think this is the nail that may close off openstack's coffin. :/ | 21:18 |
| kfox1111 | if the docker orchestration tools gain multitenancy, and is user friendly to non ops, openstack's niche shrinks drastickly. | 21:18 |
| kfox1111 | I think both are likely to happen. | 21:19 |
| docaedo | yeah .. the thing that I think is the biggest problem is that all the projects get to do things however they want, and any enforced interoperability happens through API feedback and global requirements | 21:20 |
| docaedo | The way we are doing it is the only way you can build a huge community of contributors, and continue to bring in more people (because they can see nobody is going to stop them from implementing stuff) | 21:21 |
| docaedo | but the side effect is what we have - an absurdly difficult to install and maintain IaaS | 21:21 |
| docaedo | vs. cloudstack (don't use it or you'll be sorry!) but .. it's unified | 21:21 |
| docaedo | far few options, but it's easy to install, easy to maintain, and all the parts are working happily together | 21:21 |
| kfox1111 | the problme is lack of common definitions amungst the whole though. since nova has defined users differently then other projects, it alows them to shrug off things that would make the "users" experience better by not acknologing the user exists rather then considering them. | 21:22 |
| docaedo | that's true and definitely has a big impact | 21:22 |
| kfox1111 | then to work around it, lots of other projects get spawned to fill in the gaps, making the operators life hell to deploy them all, | 21:24 |
| kfox1111 | or the cloud developers life hell waiding through all the clouds that have random collections of services installed on them. | 21:24 |
| kfox1111 | tosca cli for example (not trying to pick on anyone) | 21:25 |
| docaedo | true enough | 21:26 |
| docaedo | and yeah, that's the side effect, the only way to fill a gap is generally by making your own project | 21:26 |
| kfox1111 | exactly. :/ | 21:27 |
| kfox1111 | and that really is hurting openstack. | 21:27 |
| docaedo | hell, even look at the conversation around freezer/ekko | 21:27 |
| * kfox1111 nods | 21:27 | |
| docaedo | at least they're playing nice | 21:27 |
| kfox1111 | exactly. | 21:27 |
| docaedo | but still, easier to start ekko probably rather than try to convince whole freezer team to accept all the new stuff/ideas | 21:27 |
| docaedo | hah now you're gettin' me all worked up! :D | 21:28 |
| docaedo | well, I'm sure we'll solve all the things in Austin, so we have that to look forward to ;) | 21:28 |
| kfox1111 | heh yeah. ;) | 21:28 |
| kfox1111 | I think if we can get much closer integration into magnum, | 21:28 |
| kfox1111 | and push hard to get the horizon plugin into all of the distro's, | 21:28 |
| kfox1111 | we might be able to bring the others around. | 21:29 |
| kfox1111 | so that might be my goal for this summit. | 21:29 |
| kfox1111 | (if I'm going. still not sure yet) | 21:29 |
| docaedo | ah that would be a bummer if you couldn't make Austin | 21:29 |
| kfox1111 | I think I can make it, but not sure until tickets are in hand. | 21:30 |
| kfox1111 | the aproval process around here can be quite long. | 21:30 |
| docaedo | I'll keep my fingers crossed just the same, would be a huge help to the catalog to have you there in Austin :) | 21:31 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. I'll try my best. | 21:34 |
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| kfox1111 | there's also something else we can probably do... | 21:42 |
| kfox1111 | we talked about pulling in docker like asset types. | 21:42 |
| kfox1111 | if we continued to make the heat templates I have out on https://github.com/EMSL-MSC/heat-templates/tree/master/cfn/lib more generic, | 21:43 |
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| kfox1111 | we could have a docker heat template that just takes in a container name and launches it. | 21:43 |
| kfox1111 | then the asset could be a link to launch the docker container in the heat template for now, | 21:44 |
| kfox1111 | and when magnum matures, in kubernetes, or swarm, or wherever the user wants. | 21:44 |
| kfox1111 | hmmm... | 21:45 |
| kfox1111 | tosca question... the converter converts them to heat templates. | 21:45 |
| kfox1111 | and it may customize better if you have access to the service catalog... | 21:45 |
| kfox1111 | is the default still usable though? how much better is it? | 21:45 |
| kfox1111 | maybe we should just run the converter on all tosca assets, store them on apps.openstack.org and give them a link to the heat template instead of the tosca one if they say they don't have the cli or they are using the horizon plugin? | 21:46 |
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| docaedo | I would argue there's plenty of value in sharing TOSCA stuff as-is because many people will want to use that as the basis for their own specialized template | 21:51 |
| openstackgerrit | Mark Vanderwiel proposed openstack/app-catalog-ui: Lint cleanups https://review.openstack.org/289586 | 21:54 |
| kfox1111 | sure, but the same was said of heat, or murano, and how many entries have been added so far? | 21:55 |
| kfox1111 | open source projects tend to get developers grow from a small percentage of users. | 21:56 |
| kfox1111 | so say 100 users, one turns into a developer. | 21:56 |
| kfox1111 | we need to gain enough users to turn more into developers to help feed the users. :/ | 21:56 |
| kfox1111 | and with the openstack projects making it very hard for those develoeprs to write generic things, I totally get why they haven't sprouted. | 21:57 |
| kfox1111 | I still can't make a generic https server template thats secure! :/ | 21:57 |
| * kfox1111 grumbles | 21:57 | |
| docaedo | have you tried making one that uses letsencrypt? | 21:58 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. the plumbing isn't there.... | 21:58 |
| kfox1111 | how do I get a secret to the vm securely? | 21:59 |
| kfox1111 | can't be done in openstack today. :/ | 21:59 |
| kfox1111 | well, not in an automated way. | 21:59 |
| kfox1111 | sshing by hand and putting the secret in place does not count. | 21:59 |
| kfox1111 | bbiab. meeting next. | 21:59 |
| docaedo | I guess in this case the secret is generated automatically the first time, then automatically signed by letsencrypt - but that probably solves a different issue than what you're talking about | 22:00 |
| openstackgerrit | Mark Vanderwiel proposed openstack/app-catalog-ui: Lint cleanups https://review.openstack.org/289586 | 22:02 |
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| kfox1111 | last I read, lets encrypt was kind of about getting your own CA for your subdomain. | 22:40 |
| kfox1111 | not really at a per instance level. | 22:40 |
| kfox1111 | but I could have misunderstood. | 22:40 |
| docaedo | no it's just about giving out free signed SSL certs, that are accepted by any up to date browser | 22:49 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, but the handshake I thought involved delegating the subdomain to you, so you can create the ssl certs you need for your own domain. | 22:49 |
| kfox1111 | which woudl be trusted through their chain of trust. | 22:49 |
| docaedo | BUT to verify, the server requesting the cert has to be reachable (as the intention is to secure all the web servers) | 22:49 |
| kfox1111 | not strictly true. alternately, you can add some entries to dns establishing you own the dns server. | 22:50 |
| docaedo | I don't know about multiple sub-domains, only case I've used them for is just getting a cert for a single domain at a time | 22:50 |
| kfox1111 | the dns server at least has to be availabile in that case. | 22:50 |
| docaedo | true | 22:52 |
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