Friday, 2016-03-25

docaedoCongrats on the Murano PTL role kzaitsev_ws !00:13
kfox1111kzaitsev_ws: contrats! :)00:23
kfox1111oh... you beat me to it. :)00:23
kfox1111docaedo: and congrats to you to. :)00:24
docaedowhy thank you! I campaigned heavily and spend a great deal of money to make sure I could serve another term :P00:25
kfox1111it looks like we might finally get into rdo proper this time around.00:31
kfox1111we've been in delorean for a while, but never had the time to figure out how to get it into the final release for liberty.00:32
kfox1111looks like its just automatically going to happen from now on out. :)00:32
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docaedooh that's great!01:36
openstackgerritSahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: TOSCA web changes
openstackgerritSahdev Zala proposed openstack/app-catalog: TOSCA web changes
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kfox1111kzaitsev_mb: saw the articles on
kfox1111I'd really like to see the 20 click thing done with the app-catalog-ui in addition to murano-dashboard installed and see how many clicks that would be. I think it would be a lot less.18:43
kfox1111plus a lot less hoping around, pasting things in, having to know what an environment was to create one, etc.18:44
kfox1111I think we also should talk again at lengh at the summit about terminology. the murano = openstack app catalog thing and the community app catalog and glare is still really confusing to everyone. its bad enough that most devs kind of struggle with it, when our target audience is non devs.18:47
kfox1111murano is something akin to a local application/component catalog and application engine.18:48
kfox1111community app catalog is a shared/community supported application/component catalog.18:49
kfox1111and glare is a local catalog of components.18:49
docaedoI'm definitely up for continuing the conversation in Austin and will do my best to be aroud for some of the Murano stuff18:49
docaedoThe confusion sucks, but unlikely to get Murano team to abandon the phrase "application catalog"18:50
docaedoFrom the "app catalog PR" side, I'm thinking about prompting an updated mission statement (and dragging the TC into the conversation)18:50
docaedowhich would also get more publicity/coverage for what we're doing18:51
kfox1111they have renamed once....18:51
kfox1111Id say we all should probably all compromise and all abandon the term, and come up with new, non contentious ones maybe.18:51
kfox1111all the projects are important, and complementery,18:52
kfox1111but it doesn't seem that way due to bad naming/salesmanship.18:52
docaedoyeah I'm certainly up for the conversation :)18:53
kfox1111I think it helps murano in a lot of ways to get a name fitting to the things it actually buys users.18:53
kfox1111its way more then just a list of apps to run.18:54
kfox1111which makes it sound a lot more like what we're doing here.18:54
docaedoto me the value of murano is as an OpenStack-native Application PaaS18:54
kfox1111murano cloud application manager or something like that perhaps.18:54
kfox1111yeah, but I almost see it one step higher at SaaS.18:55
kfox1111you want a wordpress instance? bam. wordpress. :)18:55
kfox1111it can do paas level stuff too, but it really shines the most at turnkey apps.18:56
kfox1111we also should talk about moving forward with the thing we discussed last summit about making murano dashboard slide into the app-catalog-ui.19:01
kfox1111I think we should have time to do that this cycle finally.19:01
kfox1111that should greatly help reduce the confusion too.19:02
docaedoI'd definitely like to talk about that and see what direction makes the most sense19:04
docaedo(ie tighter connection to murano vs. work towards inclusion in Horizon)19:05
docaedoI don't think there's a way to do both, and the only way to get the app catalog ui piece to be "default" is move into horizon19:06
kfox1111I still don't want to merge into horizon that closly yet.19:07
kfox1111we'll have a hard time supporting older clouds if we do.19:07
kfox1111and add new features.19:07
kfox1111and horizon is pushing core stuff out of horizon, not pulling it in.19:07
kfox1111I think they recently spun off sahara and trove dashboards to their own repos?19:09
kfox1111well, trove-dashboard for sure in mitaka.19:10
docaedosure but those are different animals - a dashboard for a complicated local service vs. a panel that shows an external index with no local service requirements19:11
kfox1111sure. but in some ways a remote service requirement's a harder thing to target then a local one.19:12
kfox1111there's a reason google doesn't ship google play as an os level android thing. they ship it as an app, so they can upgrade it in somewhat close lockstep with their servers.19:12
kfox1111they support the local os for a long time, but the app store moves forward with the remote site.19:13
kfox1111I think app-catalog-common vs app-catalog-ui may help somewhat with that, but hard to say until we have the split done and use it for a while.19:14
kfox1111app catalog ui can provide the horizon base hooks, and frame, and then common can sit content into it. so might be easier to upgrade. but if we want to add new asset types for older clouds (likely), we'd probably have to be able to support newer app-catalog-ui's too.19:15
kfox1111having the conversation with the rdo folks a little bit, I think we may want to really stop targeting the 6 month cycle and just release features as needed, independent, like some of the other projects (ironic)19:17
kfox1111because our version 1.0 works with liberty & mitaka.19:17
docaedomuch depends on how complicated the UI piece is, and how much more it does on top of just accessing the index of things19:17
kfox11112.0, will probably work on liberty, mitaka, and newton, etc.19:17
kfox1111for example, if we were part of horizon in liberty, we'd have to support our app catalog v1 api until liberty horizon went away.19:18
kfox1111with seperate release, we can say, we can't suport v1 any more because ... X after this date. if your running liberty, upgrade just the app-catalog-ui component to 2.0 (supported) and things will work better.19:19
kfox1111some day, I think we will be stable enough to consider entering horizon's tree if they will have us. right now, I think the negatives outweigh the positives.19:20
docaedoyeah I can agree that it's not time right now19:20
docaedobut I do think it's key for widespread adoption19:20
kfox1111its the easiest way for widespread adoption for sure.19:21
kfox1111otherwise we have to push through the packaging/config management bits ourselves. which is hard.19:21
kfox1111but we've made some good progress there.19:21
kfox1111we need to keep pushing though. this summit I intend to make the rounds again and try further.19:22
docaedoI feel like the packaging is relatively minor compared to just plain getting exposure19:22
kfox1111I'm building kolla docker containers for work soon. which means I'll have to patch in the app-catalog-ui. so I can probably contribute that back.19:22
kfox1111the exposure thing is a chicken and the egg issue. we need content to attract users and developers. we need developers contributing to attract users. :/19:23
kfox1111and we need a bloody sane cloud in order to attract developers too. :/19:23
docaedoconvincing people to add the package to their deployment is 10 (100?)x harder than convincing them to flip a bit in horizon config19:23
kfox1111yeah, thats why config mangement part is important.19:24
kfox1111with ansible, puppet, kolla, it should just be a flag.19:24
docaedothe biggest problem I see is that there's no such thing as an OpenStack Application19:24
kfox1111the flag should just pull in the package and enable it.19:24
docaedoor, no concrete thing anyway - it's just a very vague hand-wavy thing19:24
kfox1111some lower level services consider it not to be a thing at all. :/19:25
kfox1111The more I move up the stack and do the things I do these days using containers, I think nova's going to get relegated to the plumbing layer they seem to want to be, and container orchestration will be the main interface users will use.19:26
docaedoyeah I see the same future19:26
kfox1111if that ends up being true, then the app catalog needs to target kubernetes/mesos/swarm+compose templates.19:26
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docaedowhich I think would mean tight integration with Magnum, and some common way to package all those bits19:28
kfox1111well, maybe...19:28
docaedowell .. guess if everyone assumes their docker piece is on dockerhub, that makes things easier19:28
kfox1111the containers already have reasonable packaging/deployment system.19:28
docaedobut you still need your base image for swarn nodes and so on...19:28
kfox1111its just the templates that need some packaging.19:28
kfox1111yeah. that part wont go away. but thats like a dep thing, and can be done basically automatically for the user.19:29
kfox1111magnum can work with the app catalog to pull the vm deps for launching if they don't exist locally already.19:29
kfox1111then workflow is something like, user searches for an app, finds, say a kubernetes one, hits launch,19:30
kfox1111we ask the user, do you want to run it on such and such existing kubernetes system in their tenant,19:30
kfox1111or if they want to kick off the magnum new cluster workflow19:30
kfox1111and then tell kubernetes to launch the template.19:31
docaedosounds like it would work nicely19:32
kfox1111even more awesome, if its done right with the new kubernetes deployments feature,19:33
kfox1111you should be able to add an 'upgrade' option if there is an existing running deployment, and then kick off the rolling upgrade. :)19:33
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docaedothat would be nice :)19:43
kfox1111so, we shoudl probably talk with the magnum folks at the summit too and talk through that idea.19:45
kfox111139 mb binary...19:52
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kfox1111interesting. he covers the different types of users appropriately.21:06
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docaedoskimmed, looks intereating and worth reading carefully, will do that shortly - thanks for sharing21:22
docaedointereating? .. interesting I mean :)21:32
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