Friday, 2015-01-30

« Thursday, 2015-01-29 Index Saturday, 2015-01-31 »
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adrian_ottoyuanying: still here?00:32
yuanyinghi00:32
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adrian_ottothanks for your reply on that question about keystone middleware00:32
adrian_ottoI think you answered my concern, but I want to be sure… so I will rephrase the question just to check00:32
adrian_ottowe have python-magnumclient and magnum in separate repos, right?00:33
yuanyingyes00:33
adrian_ottoif we set up magnum to use new keystone, and python-magnumclient is set to use an old one, then it would be imcompatible00:33
adrian_ottoare we confident that the version in the client would work with the changes you proposed to the server?00:34
adrian_ottoif you have set up the server with your code patched in, and it works with the current client, that's sufficient to satisfy my concern00:34
adrian_ottobut I don't think we have a functional test for that yet, so I can't be certain without trying that myself00:34
yuanyingok I will check again, whether tenant id is stored in context00:36
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yuanyingusing client00:36
adrian_ottothanks!00:36
adrian_ottohow are you doing?00:36
yuanyingI think ironic with micro os is difficult for me..00:37
adrian_ottoI hope you are feeling well… lots of colds and flu circulating this time of year00:37
yuanyingmy colleague had a cold. i should do a lot of office work..00:40
adrian_ottoyes!00:41
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flwangadrian_otto: ping01:07
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flwangyuanying: ping01:08
yuanyinghi01:08
flwangyuanying: i'm new for magnum, so i have a question about its position01:08
yuanyingok01:08
flwangI mean the difference of Magnum and nova-docker01:09
flwangwhat i can get from Mangum but nova-docker can't01:09
yuanyingwait a moment, it described in magnum spec..01:10
yuanyinghttps://github.com/stackforge/magnum/blob/master/specs/containers-service.rst01:11
flwangyuanying: cool, cheers01:11
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flwangyuanying: I just found this line "If cloud operators only want to offer basic instance features for their containers, they may use nova with an alternate virt-driver, such as libvirt/lxc or nova-docker. For those wanting a full-featured container experience, they may offer the Containers Service API as well, in combination with Nova instances that contain an OpenStack agent that connects to the containers service through a s01:21
flwangso what's the full-featured experience? could you pls take an example?01:21
flwangor what's the typical scenario magnum can cover, but nova-docker can't?01:22
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openstackgerritMotohiro/Yuanying Otsuka proposed stackforge/magnum: Don't use deprecated auth header  https://review.openstack.org/15116302:55
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openstackgerritMotohiro/Yuanying Otsuka proposed stackforge/magnum: Don't use deprecated auth header  https://review.openstack.org/15116303:09
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sdake_evening folks04:35
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openstackgerritJay Lau proposed stackforge/magnum: Enable multi tenant for get_xx_by_uuid  https://review.openstack.org/15065904:54
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openstackgerritJay Lau proposed stackforge/magnum: Enable multi tenant for get_xx_by_uuid  https://review.openstack.org/15065906:03
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openstackgerritJay Lau proposed stackforge/magnum: Enable multi tenant for get_xxx_list  https://review.openstack.org/15112706:35
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openstackgerritJay Lau proposed stackforge/magnum: Add project_id and user_id to pod  https://review.openstack.org/15155707:26
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openstackgerritJay Lau proposed stackforge/python-magnumclient: Update help message for baymodel operations  https://review.openstack.org/15157108:22
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openstackgerritJay Lau proposed stackforge/magnum: Enable multi tenant for get_xxx_by_id  https://review.openstack.org/15157909:15
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-openstackstatus- NOTICE: zuul is running again and changes have been reenqueud. seehttp://status.openstack.org/zuul/ before rechecking if in doubt16:12
apmelton_adrian_otto: when it comes to docker containers, are we planning to have two distinct types of bays? one that supports kubernetes and one that supports docker?16:13
apmelton_and thus two distinct heat templates?16:13
sdake_morning16:17
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apmelton_good morning sdake16:18
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sdakeapmelton_ that may make sense, considering the docker oriented bays will need different network handling16:20
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sdakethat would make a great discussion for design summit ;)16:20
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apmeltonso my worry about having different pods with different capabilities is communicating that to the user16:27
sdakeya controlling individual containers that are also being managed by kubernetes seems fraught with user failure16:28
sdakeviolates principle of least surprise16:28
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adrian_ottoyes, this is a good design summit topic16:34
adrian_ottoapmelton: it would need a different template, that's for sure. We could use something like a bay_type to discriminate between them16:34
adrian_ottothat could be set to the kubernetes type by default, but allow other values to be set upon bay creation.16:34
apmeltonhmmmm16:35
adrian_ottoI'm sure there are other approaches to consider as well16:35
adrian_ottoanother option might be to only allow one bay type at a time, and set it in a configuration directive in the config file which would determine which template gets used. That's probably not as good.16:36
adrian_ottoare there other solutions that you have thought of?16:36
apmeltonI guess my concern is how we represent in the api, the fact that with bay_type=k12s you interact with services and pods, but bay_type=docker you interact with containers16:37
adrian_ottoI think you meant k8s?16:37
apmeltoner yes16:37
adrian_ottook16:37
adrian_ottothat's right… but that's true for any type of plugins that have different designs16:38
adrian_ottothe user needs to understand how a given "backend" works to make use of it16:38
adrian_ottoone solution to this is to explain it in documentation16:39
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adrian_ottoyou could still work with services and pods if you wanted to…16:39
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adrian_ottoyou could use a pod with a single member in it rather than working with a container, but that seems convoluted to me.16:40
apmeltonI was thinking something similar, the functionality you can't get directly with the backend could be implemented in magnum16:41
apmeltonbut that just sounds like a bad idea16:41
adrian_ottoagreed16:42
apmeltonwould it be a fair statement to say that magnum's API has been designed to match kubernetes?16:42
adrian_ottoIt rationalizes things in compatible concepts, so I suppose.16:43
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adrian_ottothere are new developments happening with docker-cluster that are bringing docker into more of a parity with k8s16:45
adrian_ottoso that gap is likely to become more narrow over time16:45
apmeltonso, the way it seems magnum has two functions, 1) it spins up container management clusters and 2) is provides a common API to consume the functionality of those clusters16:47
apmeltonand I wonder what the benefit of 2) is if the user still has to know the functionality of the backend16:48
apmeltonat that point, why not let the user talk directly to the backend16:48
adrian_ottowe will let them talk to the backend16:49
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adrian_ottowe had discussion about having links to the backend APIs so you can even use the native tools with them16:49
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adrian_ottoI'm not sure yet how we will match multi-tenancy with those16:50
adrian_ottoas neither Docker nor k8s have multi-tenancy in them16:50
apmeltonat that point do they need multi-tenancy? we're providing multi-tenancy by spinning up clusters per-tenant16:50
adrian_ottoso in order to allow a multi-tenant use case with direct access to the backends, we would need to provision those services on a per-tenant basis, and not share them.16:51
apmeltonadrian_otto: so we plan to allow two separate tenants to use the same bay?16:51
adrian_ottothis approach works, but would be less efficient than an approach that would share the backend resources more.16:52
adrian_ottothe same nodes, not the same bay16:52
adrian_ottobut look, that's an optimization that we don't need to deal with initially16:52
adrian_ottogenerally speaking, I think it's a bad idea to try to use single tenant systems as the backend to a multi-tenant frontend.16:53
adrian_ottounless there is isolation of those single tenant systems such that they can not interact.16:53
adrian_ottothat's the current approach.16:53
adrian_ottodoes that make any sense?16:53
adrian_ottowe have multi-tenancy in Nova16:54
adrian_ottoif nodes come from Nova, then that problem is already solved.16:54
adrian_ottowhat we will probably not be able to do is share nodes between bays16:55
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apmeltonso, eventually, we're planning to have multiple customers with pods landing on the same bays?16:56
adrian_ottoin all honesty, we have not discussed that yet.16:57
adrian_ottoif we allow access to the backend api endpoints, then that arrangement would be problematic.16:57
apmeltonyes16:58
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apmeltonSo, I guess my concern is really about not only communicating support for features over different pods17:05
apmeltonbut also versions of pods17:05
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apmeltonlets say you have a docker pod that was spun up before our docker pod supported services17:06
apmeltonbut, all new docker pods support services17:06
apmeltonmaybe, I'm getting way too ahead of myself17:07
adrian_ottoin that case we would need to bump the API version17:08
apmeltonso as a deployer and operator, I will need to maintain versions of the magnum api for all active pods in my deployment?17:16
apmeltonand as developers we will need to maintain a conductor that can talk to different versions of pods?17:17
openstackgerritMerged stackforge/magnum: Don't use deprecated auth header  https://review.openstack.org/15116317:17
adrian_ottoapmelton: yes, I think that's right.17:18
apmeltonhmmmm17:19
adrian_ottois there a better way?17:29
apmeltonallow direct access to backend api, and if a user wants to stay on an old version, they just don't update their backend api client17:29
apmeltonso lets say we don't allow backend api access17:32
apmeltonand we have two bays, one running backend service v1 and another running backend server v2, each of them require a distinctly different client library17:33
apmeltonthat means we need to have a conductor advertising it can talk to v1, installed along side client library for v117:33
apmeltonand another conductor advertising it can talk to v2, installed along side client library for v217:34
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sdakeapmelton I have thought and thought how to get bay sharing going, so we can get out of the "bare metal per tenant" model17:36
sdakebut honestly, I haven' tcome up with anything that I think we can implement in the next 6 months17:36
sdakei think that is a multi-cycle thing tbh17:36
sdakesorry for missing thread btw, was afk in email land17:37
apmeltonsdake: I agree17:37
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apmeltonto be able to support this we're going to have to be very deliberate17:38
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apmeltonso adrian_otto, I see at least three high level tasks: 1) heat template to spawn docker cluster with swarm, 2) ability to select different bay_types at bay creation, 3) update docker conductor to use swarm manager's IP/Port for docker connection17:45
adrian_ottoterrific! Let's make blueprints for each of those, and give shirt sizes to each, and we can decide which to target in m217:46
sdakehow do we get swarm on the oS?17:47
adrian_ottowe can link them with the depends-on attribute in the BP17:47
sdakedoes it come in a container?17:47
apmeltonsdake: that's what I'm thinking17:47
apmeltondockerswarm/swarm17:47
sdakethe model I would liek to follow for agents is to put them in containers wherever possible17:47
sdaketha tmakes bootstrapping easy17:47
sdakeI think tackling swarm in m2 is unlikely - plate seems pretty full alread17:48
sdakey17:48
apmeltonsdake: I tested this out earlier today, basically you have two types of nodes, a master running swarm agent and swarm manager containers, and then N number of nodes running just the swarm agent17:48
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sdakewould be nice if the swarm agent goes in a container17:49
sdakeI really dont want us distributing custom images17:49
sdakeit was very painful for heat (the custom images part) to get heat-cfntools agents in17:49
sdakenot worth repeating imo :)17:49
sdakeby custom images, I mean custom os images17:49
apmeltonsdake: adrian_otto: agreed, the more I think about this the more I think the overarching BP is an XL17:49
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adrian_ottoagreed, please adjust that when convenient.17:50
apmeltonadrian_otto: it's getting to be lunch time for me, so I'll get all this updated when I get back17:51
adrian_ottoAre you willing to create the sub-blueprints, and list them in work-items of the parent BP when you return?17:51
adrian_ottoWe can start an ML discussion to get additional team input, and put it on the IRC meeting agenda to sum up that discussion.17:52
apmeltonadrian_otto: sure, hopefully I have permissions in LP to get everything linked up17:52
adrian_ottosdake and I can help if you have any difficulty17:52
apmeltonsounds good17:52
adrian_ottoI will be around all day17:52
sdakeI'm pretty swamped today - last day and all17:52
sdakeand I hvae a lunch appointment with a friend17:52
apmeltonalright, I'll be back in a bit17:53
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openstackgerritDigambar proposed stackforge/magnum: Fix and clean up Container api  https://review.openstack.org/15173318:39
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adrian_ottohongbin has been added to magnum-core18:41
diga_has he added this change ?18:41
-openstackstatus- NOTICE: Gerrit and Zuul will be offline from 1900 to 1930 UTC for project renames18:42
adrian_ottoI just added him in response to the votes on this thread http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-January/055477.html18:43
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diga_ok18:45
diga_I see18:45
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apmeltonadrian_otto: got the blueprints set up with dependencies: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/magnum/+spec/magnum-docker-backend-selection19:17
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adrian_ottoapmelton: Thanks, looks good!!19:35
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