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| stevemar | ayoung: let me know what you think of the latest spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59848/ | 00:06 |
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| jamielennox | open question to anyone listening does it make sense to handle redirects as exceptions? | 00:54 |
| jamielennox | we already raise exceptions for 4xx responses, if we did the same for > 300 then we could save problems for people having to check that a valid response was returned | 00:55 |
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| jamielennox | though i guess when dealing with an API we are regularly checking for status_codes anyway | 00:56 |
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| Jokke_ | jamielennox: imho it doesn't ... redirects are not fault conditions after all | 00:57 |
| Jokke_ | at least hopefully | 00:57 |
| jamielennox | Jokke_: an that is how they are handled now - it's just i wonder how much client code will fail if it was to receive a redirect instead of a reply because we create exceptions from 4xx | 00:59 |
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| jamielennox | Jokke_: i'll probably leave it, but it's an interesting idea - though as you say a redirect isn't a failure | 00:59 |
| Jokke_ | jamielennox: would be better to fix the client code than try to stretch bubble gum on top of client mishadling ;) | 01:00 |
| jamielennox | Jokke_: true, dealing with an API we should always check for an expected status code as the first step | 01:01 |
| Jokke_ | after all redirects are pretty common, so clients should be able to deal with them without any bigger issues | 01:01 |
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| jamielennox | Jokke_: well a certain amount of redirect is handled internally, so it should only escape in the unusual case | 01:02 |
| Jokke_ | jamielennox: I agree. I think raising exceptions out of them would cause just more confusion and break things | 01:02 |
| jamielennox | Jokke_: and i'd have no idea how to make it compatible with the current models - which is essentially a deal breaker | 01:03 |
| Jokke_ | ;D | 01:03 |
| jamielennox | Jokke_: thanks | 01:03 |
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| Jokke_ | anytime | 01:04 |
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| zul | clarkb: paste.openstack.org is like no responsive for me | 01:30 |
| clarkb | zul: does it eventually load? I think we may need to make that a bigger host | 01:31 |
| clarkb | jeblair: ^ 1GB node feels small, swap comes into lay | 01:31 |
| zul | it eventually loads | 01:31 |
| jeblair | clarkb: yeah, if we're swapping, let's expand it | 01:32 |
| clarkb | free says we are 100MB into swap | 01:32 |
| clarkb | after I did my best to reduce swap use | 01:32 |
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| ayoung | stevemar, looking | 01:50 |
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| ayoung | stevemar, user.id user.name user.email are all viable, I think | 01:52 |
| ayoung | I actually ondomain | 01:52 |
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| retr0h | If the dhcp agent requires notification_driver set to rpc how do I prevent my notifications.info queue from filling up with network/subnet/port create/deletes ? | 01:58 |
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| stevemar | ayoung: reading your comments | 02:03 |
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| ayoung | stevemar, just a few first thoughts...I'm going to be shutting down here for the night... | 02:03 |
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| stevemar | ayoung, cool | 02:04 |
| ayoung | stevemar, I'm most concerned with the Regex documentation. We should probably find a good standard to go with as opposed to my hand-jammed one | 02:04 |
| stevemar | ayoung: trying to figure out a good test | 02:05 |
| stevemar | ayoung: that doesn't involve me create a huge set of dummy test data | 02:06 |
| ayoung | stevemar, we could just say "by the rules of python as that will be the default implementation" and leave it at that | 02:06 |
| stevemar | :) | 02:06 |
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| mriedem | bnemec: have you ever seen this? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/18357/ | 03:17 |
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| sumanthns | BobBall, hi | 05:25 |
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| sumanthns | BobBall, is nova compatible with Xenserver 5.5? Or does nova require a xenserver greater than any particular version? | 05:27 |
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| jamielennox | sumanthns: try #openstack-nova | 06:02 |
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| sumanthns | ty, jamielennox | 06:03 |
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| BobBall | sumanthns: Use XenServer 6.2 | 10:04 |
| BobBall | sumanthns: it's free and open source | 10:04 |
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| BobBall | sumanthns: and 5.5 is already EOL meaning no security updates etc | 10:04 |
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| sumanthns | BobBall, yeah, my scenario is bit different where I am trying to install compute on xenserver 5.5 and move to openstack management. I have some other difficulty/dependency in upgrading 5.5 to 6.2 as is. | 10:10 |
| sumanthns | BobBall, so wanted to know if nova supports 5.5. Apparently I am getting on xen plugins looking for some host keys which does not exist in 5.5 | 10:11 |
| sumanthns | wanted to know, if its worth chasing them. If there are so many other things which are not supported in 5.5, then I can forget this plan of getting nova on 5.5 | 10:12 |
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| BobBall | Almost certanily not sumanthns | 11:30 |
| BobBall | sumanthns: Check out the install guide | 11:30 |
| BobBall | sumanthns: http://docs.openstack.org/admin-guide-cloud/content/introduction-to-xen.html | 11:31 |
| BobBall | sumanthns: you have to isntall the plugins in dom0 | 11:31 |
| BobBall | sumanthns: actually http://docs.openstack.org/trunk/openstack-compute/install/yum/content/introduction-to-xen.html | 11:31 |
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| sumanthns | ty BobBall | 11:34 |
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| sdague | any swift folks have an opinion on this devstack change - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/48610/ ? | 11:37 |
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| sumanthns | BobBall, I had one more question around resize. What is the advantage of resizing in a same host and resizing to other host? Why would I choose one over other? | 11:38 |
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| dsantos_ | hi I'm trying to run glance with ssl but I'm getting an error. I found this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-glanceclient/+bug/1160520 but it doesn't seems to be fixed. The error that I got is "not all arguments converted during string formatting". Does someone know how can I fix this? | 12:15 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1160520 in python-glanceclient "Misleading error message when OS_CACERT is set incorrectly" [Undecided,In progress] | 12:15 |
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| BobBall | sumanth: if you can resize to a different host then you can resize even when there isn't room on the current host | 12:17 |
| BobBall | sumanth: but resizing to a diff host does include an rsync | 12:18 |
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| dsantos_ | hi cyeoh, I saw a comment you made in my patch about sync the logging changes in oslo with nova, but I don't know how to sync just a part of the code, since the document about oslo says that there's a script to sync the entire API | 12:47 |
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| dolphm | morganfainberg: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60415/ | 14:35 |
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| morganfainberg | dolphm, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57975 | 14:40 |
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| mtreinish | BobBall: ping | 14:53 |
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| morganfainberg | lbragstad, pong (yes i know delayed). | 14:58 |
| lbragstad | morganfainberg: :) no worries | 14:58 |
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| lbragstad | just had a quick question. | 14:58 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, sure thing | 14:58 |
| * lbragstad digs to find link | 14:58 | |
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| lbragstad | morganfainberg: I was taking another look at this and I remember we were talking about import classes, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/58311/2/keystone/tests/fixtures/__init__.py | 15:01 |
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| lbragstad | importing classes* | 15:01 |
| lbragstad | and you had mentioned a review that would break this? | 15:02 |
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| morganfainberg | lbragstad, that was a different case | 15:02 |
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| morganfainberg | lbragstad, In the one i was talking about there wasn't a #noqa and hacking was going to cause it to break. | 15:03 |
| lbragstad | morganfainberg: ahh ok, | 15:03 |
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| morganfainberg | lbragstad, yeah #noqa should be fine and especially in tests | 15:04 |
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| lbragstad | morganfainberg: ok, so for testing purposes we can import classes? | 15:05 |
| morganfainberg | lbragstad, i mean, you _can_ always import classes. but ideally we shouldn't unless there is a good use-case to do so | 15:05 |
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| dolphm | lbragstad: in init files, it's easier to justify because you want things in that namespace -morgan | 15:08 |
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| lbragstad | morganfainberg: dolphm cool, that helps. Thanks! | 15:10 |
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| bnemec | mriedem: I'm pretty sure that patch predates my involvement in Oslo. :-) | 15:24 |
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| mriedem | beekneemech: i thought it might | 15:31 |
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| notmyname | sdague: what's the use case for adding reseller admin? | 16:16 |
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| jgriffith | pixelb: ping | 16:17 |
| pixelb | jgriffith, hi | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | pixelb: hey there | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | pixelb: I wanted to ask you about https://review.openstack.org/#/c/56970/ | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | So you make a valid point regarding the improvement | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | in performance | 16:18 |
| jgriffith | but I guess one other question that I used when looking at this was risk | 16:19 |
| jgriffith | and frankly I think it's pretty low risk | 16:19 |
| pixelb | OK you have more insight on that. | 16:19 |
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| jgriffith | pixelb: well, I was wondering if you were seeing something that maybe I'm not? | 16:20 |
| pixelb | no | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | To be honest I'm not that invested in this particular change | 16:20 |
| jgriffith | but if users are complaining about the perf and we can make it better (even marginally) without a major patch/effort I figure why not? | 16:21 |
| pixelb | Note also we generally don't backport performance fixes as incentive for people to upgrade to the latest and greatest | 16:21 |
| jgriffith | pixelb: ok, well now that changes things then :) | 16:21 |
| pixelb | Given I'm still neutral, there may very well be enough +'s to get this in anyway | 16:22 |
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| sdague | notmyname: honestly, I have no idea. Hence why I wanted a swift team member opinion on the patch :) | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | pixelb: well you may sway me based on the no performance fixes policy | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | :) | 16:23 |
| notmyname | sdague: I mean nothing would break, but it's sorta like "can I get feedback on running everything as root". ya, it works, but why? | 16:23 |
| jgriffith | that's completely valid | 16:24 |
| jgriffith | pixelb: although I'd like to ammend that policy, to "after the first stable update" :) | 16:24 |
| pixelb | It's a slippery slope if we start that | 16:24 |
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| jgriffith | the first update thing? | 16:24 |
| jgriffith | agreed | 16:24 |
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| jgriffith | but in reality we don't get some valuable feedback until we actually release | 16:25 |
| jgriffith | pixelb: anyway... you now have me on the fence | 16:25 |
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| sdague | notmyname: right, it didn't seem obvious to me why you'd change that to be our opinionated default in devstack | 16:25 |
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| notmyname | sdague: the intent of the reseller admin is to let an auth identity have access to all accounts (including create and delete powers) for all accounts managed by that auth system | 16:25 |
| sdague | so I wanted to figure out if someone on the swift team could enlighten | 16:25 |
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| notmyname | sdague: I'm pretty opinionated on devstack's version of swift anyway ;-) | 16:26 |
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| sdague | notmyname: well, then express an opinion on the review :) | 16:26 |
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| sdague | if we don't get swift core team feedback on swift related patches... it isn't going to get better by magic faries | 16:28 |
| notmyname | sdague: devstack rejiggering is on my todo list (but way down). I don't have strong opinions on that particular patch. is there some function in devstack that doesn't work without it? | 16:28 |
| sdague | notmyname: not as far as I can tell | 16:28 |
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| sdague | based on this conversation it seems like I'd -1 for no real justification for the change | 16:29 |
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| notmyname | sdague: I'll drop a comment on it when I get done with what I'm currently working on | 16:29 |
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| sdague | jd__: so I'm actually confused by your comments on the oslo path | 16:36 |
| sdague | oslo locking patch | 16:36 |
| sdague | because the blocking isn't on the open | 16:36 |
| jd__ | sdague: I know, I replied, I think you didn't understand what's the puropose of O_EXCL | 16:38 |
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| jd__ | sdague: tell me if my latest comment makes more sense or/and if you need more pointer :) | 16:38 |
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| sdague | jd__: right, but that actually breaks locking in other ways | 16:40 |
| sdague | because if you have process death, then it can never start again | 16:40 |
| jd__ | ah, right | 16:40 |
| sdague | I get that there would be a completely different implementation of locking | 16:40 |
| sdague | that would do that, but it won't work with oslo implementation | 16:40 |
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| dolphm | dstanek: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59601/ | 16:44 |
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| jd__ | sdague: added a note on the review about that, thanks for this case, didn't think about it :) | 16:44 |
| sdague | ok, great :) | 16:45 |
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| jd__ | sdague: I wonder, do you _have_ to open the file in write mode to lock it? | 16:48 |
| sdague | yes | 16:48 |
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| flaper87 | sdague: thanks for reviewing the glance+devstack patch. I replied to your comment there. | 16:52 |
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| insanidade | hi all. has anyone here ever succeeded in installing ceilometer in devstack ? | 17:17 |
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| ekarlso | insanidade: yeah, just a few hours ago | 17:18 |
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| insanidade | ekarlso: did you have any issues? I have the instructions (variables I have to add to localrc) and I used them but I have the following issue: http://paste.openstack.org/show/54612/ | 17:19 |
| insanidade | ekarlso: I can manually connect - i.e.: issue the 'mongo ceilometer' command. | 17:21 |
| ekarlso | insanidade: nope | 17:21 |
| ekarlso | :) | 17:21 |
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| insanidade | it doesn't work if invoked by the script. | 17:21 |
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| jgriffith | new test in CI, dsvm? | 17:23 |
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| jgriffith | ahh... never mind | 17:24 |
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| shardy | ayoung: around? | 17:40 |
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| pcm_ | Hi all... I'm having some issues with stack.sh since the change to use git protocol git.openstack.org | 17:51 |
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| ayoung | shardy, yeah, | 17:51 |
| pcm_ | I get a timeout with network not reachable on the git clone operations of stack.sh. | 17:52 |
| shardy | Hey ayoung | 17:52 |
| shardy | I've been testing trusts via my tempest patch, and I have a question | 17:52 |
| pcm_ | If I manually issue the command to clone a repo, they work. I'm behind a proxy | 17:52 |
| ayoung | fire awat | 17:53 |
| pcm_ | Anyone have any ideas how to resolve? | 17:53 |
| ayoung | ]away | 17:53 |
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| shardy | When you list all trusts, what situation can result in the trusts not having any roles in the query? | 17:53 |
| ayoung | shardy, you mean without your patch? | 17:53 |
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| shardy | I've had to update my patch which does del['roles'] because not all elements have that key | 17:53 |
| shardy | ayoung: I didn't see this issue until I started tempest testing with my patch applied, but then before I never did list_trusts at all due to the 500 bug | 17:54 |
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| pcm_ | It looks like if I use http://github.com will work for now as a workaround. Just wondering how to fix. | 17:54 |
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| clarkb | jgriffith: we got sick of the super long test names :) | 17:54 |
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| shardy | ayoung: I'm just trying to figure out the pattern of which records don't have roles, and why | 17:57 |
| shardy | ayoung: Seems to only happen when you're admin and list all stacks with no query | 17:57 |
| ayoung | shardy, well, not a hard nad fast rule, but I would say that all trusts should have roles, otherwise they would be useless | 17:57 |
| ayoung | I'm not certain if we enforce that | 17:57 |
| shardy | ayoung: That's what I thought, but wanted to check before digging further for bugs | 17:58 |
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| shardy | ayoung: I've updated my patch to cope with either situation, since around half of the records in my tempest environment have no roles | 17:58 |
| shardy | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60301/4/keystone/trust/controllers.py | 17:59 |
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| shardy | I'm wondering if it's because something the trust references has been deleted in the DB, but need to dig further | 17:59 |
| ayoung | shardy, trusts should probably not have hard references in the DB...as that would cause a user role-assignment to be stuck on the user.... | 18:00 |
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| ayoung | shardy, IE: you can't remove a role assignment from a user as there is a trust that references that role assignment. That would be annoying | 18:01 |
| ayoung | and wrong | 18:01 |
| jgriffith | clarkb: yeah... took me a second :) | 18:01 |
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| shardy | ayoung: Ok, so what happens to the trust if you remove one of the role assigments which a user has delegated? | 18:01 |
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| ayoung | shardy, should be "non-executable" | 18:02 |
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| ayoung | there are tests for that, actually | 18:02 |
| ayoung | SO I am fairly certain we are OK | 18:02 |
| dtroyer_zz | pcm_: you should be able to set GIT_BASE=https://git.openstack.org in localrc and have it work also. | 18:02 |
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| shardy | ayoung: Ok, thanks for the info, sounds like a corner-case I don't yet understand, but hopefully that test in my patch will work OK regardless | 18:02 |
| pcm_ | dtroyer_zz: Thanks. So git protocol can't be used behind a FW? | 18:02 |
| shardy | ayoung: thanks for the info | 18:03 |
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| dtroyer_zz | pcm_: not without work and not with all proxy implementations. one way is at http://gitolite.com/tips/git-over-proxy.html | 18:05 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, any idea where I get a real Pycharm license? | 18:05 |
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| insanidade | is there anywhere - besides the screen logs - I could see other logging information from ceilometer ? I'm running it in devstack and it fails to load data to the dashboard. | 18:06 |
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| pcm_ | dtroyer_zz: Goot to know. I'm trying http://github.com (the old setting). Will that be OK? | 18:06 |
| pcm_ | dtroyer_zz: Or should I be using https://git.openstack.org? | 18:07 |
| dtroyer_zz | pcm_: yes, that's fine, it is effectively a mirror of git.o.o | 18:07 |
| dtroyer_zz | pcm_: at least as far as the git repos are concerned | 18:08 |
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| pcm_ | dtroyer_zz: Thanks. I haven't refreshed my setup in months. Having problems getting stack to startup. | 18:08 |
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| clarkb | dtroyer_zz: pcm_: correct. We are trying to move away from github as much as possible in documentation and such to not give the impression that we use github for anything more than a mirror | 18:09 |
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| dtroyer_zz | pcm_: weeks is a long time around here… ;) | 18:09 |
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| pcm_ | dtroyer_zz: yeah... it was the far end of my VPNaaS setup, and I'm just updating it now. The other end is working fine. Struggling to get the stack going on this end. | 18:10 |
| pcm_ | dtroyer_zz: I rebooted (this is on H/W), removed /opt/stack, and tried stack.sh. Is there anything else I need to "clean up"? | 18:12 |
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| dtroyer_zz | pcm_: clean.sh will mop up some system services (RabbitMQ specifically) that can be grouchy about restarting, that might be helpful. | 18:13 |
| pcm_ | dtroyer_zz: Cool... I forgot that existed. | 18:13 |
| pcm_ | dtroyer_zz: In the middle of a run right now. Will see if it comes up. | 18:14 |
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| insanidade | CRITICAL nova [-] [Errno 98] Address already in use <-- any help? | 18:16 |
| insanidade | I got that from n-api screen from devstack | 18:16 |
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| insanidade | anyone? http://paste.openstack.org/show/54615/ | 18:18 |
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| clarkb | insanidade: make sure nothing else is running on nova's ports | 18:19 |
| pmathews | Can I get some feedback on a change to Cinder? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59868/ | 18:20 |
| insanidade | clarkb: what ports would they be ? where could I find that out ? | 18:20 |
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| clarkb | insanidade: I don't know which ports nova uses, netstat -np will show you which ports are in use | 18:20 |
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| dtroyer_zz | insanidade: all of the API services list the ports they listen on when they start, right after the config dump. | 18:21 |
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| insanidade | dtroyer_zz: would that apply for devstack as well? I don't see any port info in the logs. | 18:25 |
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| dtroyer_zz | insanidade: yup, look in the screen output, or the screen logs | 18:27 |
| insanidade | dtroyer_zz: I'm looking at the n-api screen and, from the command that is issued until the end of the error log, I see no port information. | 18:28 |
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| insanidade | dtroyer_zz: http://paste.openstack.org/show/54615/ | 18:29 |
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| dtroyer_zz | insanidade: hmmm…ok, it dumps before printing that info… looking at other services running might help but more likely you have a detatched process running. netstat -nltp is your friend | 18:33 |
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| insanidade | dtroyer_zz: would that service be some sort of zombie from previous devstack executions ? | 18:34 |
| sandywalsh | harlowja, http://www.infoq.com/presentations/raft | 18:34 |
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| harlowja | sandywalsh thx, saw something about that on hacker news i think last night | 18:35 |
| dtroyer_zz | insanidade: possibly. I recall there was a condition where things didn't die properly, I don't recall exactly the conditions that it happened. clean.sh and a reboot are the best ways to start over without a new VM | 18:35 |
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| harlowja | sandywalsh https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6859101 | 18:35 |
| insanidade | dtroyer_zz: thanks for the info :) | 18:35 |
| harlowja | sandywalsh did u watch it (worthwhle?) | 18:37 |
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| SpamapS | morganfainberg: regarding your comment here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57975/5/keystone/token/backends/sql.py .. please note the next patch in the series. :) | 18:41 |
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| SpamapS | morganfainberg: or rather, the patch 2 levels away, which drops said index :) | 18:42 |
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| sandywalsh | harlowja, yeah, it's a great review of the algorithm and the issues | 18:44 |
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| harlowja | cool | 18:47 |
| harlowja | will def put that on my watching schedule sandywalsh :) | 18:47 |
| insanidade | dtroyer_zz: fixed | 18:47 |
| harlowja | btw, sandywalsh https://review.openstack.org/#/c/60499/ | 18:47 |
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| harlowja | *remember that locking/liveness summit session | 18:47 |
| harlowja | ^ first commit of tht is there | 18:47 |
| harlowja | *that | 18:47 |
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| harlowja | https://github.com/stackforge/tooz | 18:48 |
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| sandywalsh | harlowja, cool ... looking | 18:58 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: I'd like to get your input on the KDS group portion of the API. | 19:45 |
| nkinder | ayoung: A few things feel off to me in that area | 19:45 |
| brucem_ | It appears my company's firewall is blocking port 29418. Is there alternate way to access review.openstack.org when doing git review and such? | 19:46 |
| clarkb | brucem_: no | 19:46 |
| clarkb | you will need to go through a proxy | 19:46 |
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| clarkb | mordred: did you ever get HP folks to write up what that looks like? | 19:46 |
| mordred | aro? | 19:46 |
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| mordred | david-lyle: ^^ | 19:47 |
| clarkb | mordred: see brucem_'s question | 19:47 |
| mordred | david-lyle: and chance we have a publicly accessible write up of how to deal with stupid corporate firewalls? | 19:47 |
| david-lyle | mordred: no public writeup | 19:47 |
| mordred | brucem_: first step - go mock your corporate security people for having a firewall that blocks outbound traffic | 19:47 |
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| david-lyle | but I can send brucem_ something and work to post something on the openstack wiki | 19:49 |
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| brucem_ | david-lyle: Thanks, something to work with as a wiki write up will help me battle our IT folks. | 19:51 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, fire away | 19:59 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: Currently you can create a group (PUT) and delete it (DELETE). | 20:00 |
| nkinder | ayoung: there is no GET, as the only thing a group contains is it's name | 20:00 |
| ayoung | that always seemed a little off to me, but OK | 20:00 |
| nkinder | ayoung: internally, a short-lived key may get assigned to the group, but that's obtained through an entirely different call. | 20:00 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: what seems most off to me is the way that membership is handled | 20:00 |
| nkinder | ayoung: if the group name is "foo", then any destination matching "foo.*" is a member | 20:01 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: that isn't very flexible | 20:01 |
| ayoung | nkinder, should it be explicit? | 20:02 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: I'm wondering if we should have it so you define members in the group. They could be regex rules to handle the wildcard. | 20:02 |
| ayoung | like : you need to enroll in the group? | 20:02 |
| nkinder | ayoung: something like that (or an admin adds the rules) | 20:02 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: right now, you can't have two members that aren't named with the same prefix | 20:03 |
| ayoung | nkinder, so, without that, how does the group stuff even work? I have to admit, it seems to me that group really calls for asym crypto | 20:03 |
| nkinder | ayoung: so a sending party gets a ticket for a group. | 20:03 |
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| ayoung | right | 20:04 |
| nkinder | ayoung: inside of KDS, it sees that the destination is a group, so it generates a short-lived key and associates it with the group. | 20:04 |
| nkinder | ayoung: that short-live key is used to encrypt the keys that will get sent to the group members along with the message. | 20:04 |
| nkinder | ayoung: a group member then has to make a request to KDS to get the short-lived group key. | 20:05 |
| nkinder | ayoung: KDS returns the group key encrypted with the long term shared key that is associated with the individual group member. | 20:05 |
| ayoung | nkinder, can't that group member then sign things to? This means that there is no pub-sub, right? | 20:05 |
| ayoung | its just "someone in the group signed the message" | 20:05 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: the group member doesn't sign using the group key. It does verify the signature that the source made with a HMAC though. | 20:07 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, so HMAC is ok, but what about actual encryption? Is that not going to be allowed for groups? | 20:07 |
| nkinder | ayoung: a group doesn't send. | 20:08 |
| nkinder | ayoung: a single sender can send a message to a group. | 20:08 |
| ayoung | nkinder, someone sends to groups | 20:08 |
| ayoung | right | 20:08 |
| ayoung | HMAC is done how, exactly? | 20:08 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: the sender uses the signing key from the ticket | 20:09 |
| nkinder | ayoung: so let's go back to the ticket... | 20:09 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: a sender requests a ticket. | 20:09 |
| ayoung | nkinder, right | 20:09 |
| nkinder | ayoung: the ticket has a signing key and an encryption key. | 20:09 |
| ayoung | nkinder, symmtric keys | 20:09 |
| nkinder | ayoung: this key pair is short lived, and only valid for "source->destination" | 20:09 |
| nkinder | ayoung: yes, which it will share with the destination party | 20:10 |
| ayoung | nkinder, so that is secure for point to point | 20:10 |
| nkinder | ayoung: in one direction | 20:10 |
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| ayoung | I know I didn't send this message, it must have come from the only other person that has the key | 20:10 |
| nkinder | exactly | 20:10 |
| ayoung | nkinder, so once three people have the key there is ambiguity | 20:11 |
| ayoung | so all we know is "someone has the key and signed the message" | 20:11 |
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| ayoung | even if the key is tagged "single use" there is a race condition, so it means that someone in the group sent the message, but we don't know who. Right? | 20:12 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: there is a derive that needs to ocur on the destination though, and that takes the source/dest as an input. | 20:14 |
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| ayoung | derive? | 20:14 |
| nkinder | ayoung: the destination doesn't receive the signing and encryption keys exactly. | 20:15 |
| ayoung | ah. | 20:15 |
| nkinder | ayoung: it receives a random key that is used to derive them, and it needs to input the source and dest and timestamp from the message | 20:15 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: it's the expand function from HKDF | 20:15 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: we're getting away from my question though :) | 20:16 |
| ayoung | nkinder, but this is important | 20:16 |
| ayoung | I can | 20:16 |
| ayoung | 't answer your question yet, as I don't really understand the solution.... | 20:16 |
| nkinder | ayoung: Sure. The write-up I've done in the API doc will help you understand | 20:16 |
| nkinder | ayoung: I'll send you the latest that I have. It's not up for review yet. | 20:17 |
| ayoung | nkinder the brain cells I preallocated to hold that data were filled up by "you need to clear the de-vconditional-nack" flag in bugzilla | 20:17 |
| nkinder | ayoung: the first section provides the background you want I think | 20:18 |
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| harlowja | sandywalsh do u know if there is a good writeup of what the rackspace agent does (Architecutre, other...?) | 20:19 |
| harlowja | README.md has a start to this | 20:19 |
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| sandywalsh | harlowja, hmm, good question. I think it's stuff like change admin password. add/remove network, reboot, etc | 20:20 |
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| sandywalsh | harlowja, https://github.com/rackerlabs/openstack-guest-agents-unix/tree/master/commands | 20:20 |
| ayoung | nkinder, I kindof get the idea of using a Key derivation function, but I don't see how it allows publishing from a known source to a group, unless each group member gets a pre-shared key, and a deliberate message | 20:20 |
| ayoung | which is really just "point to point to a lot of points" | 20:20 |
| sandywalsh | harlowja, there's also a monitoring agent ... lemme see if I can find that | 20:20 |
| harlowja | sandywalsh right, sorta similar to what cloud-init offers | 20:20 |
| harlowja | *except cloud-init isn't currently an agent | 20:21 |
| nkinder | ayoung: I believe what you're referring to as the "pre-shared key" is the group key | 20:21 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: There's the key pair used to protect the messages, the sender has a long term key that's shared with KDS, and the group gets a short-term key that's shared with KDS (and the rest of the group). | 20:22 |
| ayoung | nkinder, how short term ? | 20:23 |
| nkinder | ayoung: So a group member needs to get the short-term group key to decrypt the random key that is used as an input to derive the key pair. | 20:23 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: implementation dependent :) | 20:23 |
| ayoung | nkinder, one message? | 20:23 |
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| sandywalsh | harlowja, https://github.com/racker/virgo | 20:24 |
| nkinder | ayoung: it's time based. Not sure how short Simo was thinking. | 20:24 |
| ayoung | otherwise, once the key is shared, what is to keep a group member from just replaying it | 20:24 |
| harlowja | sandywalsh interesting | 20:24 |
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| harlowja | lua, wow, ) | 20:24 |
| nkinder | ayoung: it needs to be valid long enough that each group member can request it from KDS. | 20:24 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: so it's created when the sender gets a ticket, and it needs to be valid long enough for all group members to receive the message and grab the key from KDS. | 20:25 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, ok, so unless it is single use, there is no way of knowing who sent the second or later message signed with that key? Or is there something I am missing? | 20:26 |
| nkinder | ayoung: I believe that the derive protects against the case you are thinking of. If the message comes from a different source, the derive will fail since the source is an input for the derive. | 20:27 |
| ayoung | nkinder, so they have to go through the derive process on each message, and the derive includes some portion of the message in it? | 20:28 |
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| sandywalsh | harlowja, yeah, other groups behind it | 20:28 |
| harlowja | sandywalsh all good, i understand why lua (i think, small binaries, small memory footprint...?) | 20:29 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: yes, the source and destination are included in the derive, and they need to be determined from the message. | 20:29 |
| jgriffith | adam_g: any chance of getting you to reconsider those cinder backports based on the perf chart? | 20:29 |
| jgriffith | adam_g: I don't see much risk here and a significant improvement | 20:30 |
| ayoung | nkinder, that doesn't seem possible. Unless there is a secret key that is used in the process, and if it is symmetric, it could be any secret key.....there is something I am not understanding. | 20:30 |
| nkinder | ayoung: take a look at the API doc | 20:30 |
| ayoung | nkinder, the review request? | 20:31 |
| nkinder | 20:31 | |
| nkinder | that's more recent than the review request | 20:31 |
| nkinder | ayoung: simo might be able to weigh in on this, though I'd recommend reading the spec first. | 20:32 |
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| nealph | Any Oslo folks hanging around? I'm running into an issue with oslo.config due to a "$" in one of our opt values. | 20:33 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, I'm reading it. But it doesn't seem to answer my question | 20:36 |
| ayoung | simo, when you have a chance...KDS group key question | 20:37 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, so I also am not sure how the group key stuff is supposed to be used, if the overhead of the KDS is going to outweigh the cost of asymmetric crypto. I think I need to understand simo's group argument....and it might help me answer your question | 20:38 |
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| ayoung | rustlebee, nkinder has a question about groups and KDS | 20:41 |
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| ayoung | rustlebee, the question is whether we need to make group membership explicit. nkinder does that sum it up? | 20:41 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, how is destination confirmed? as you said, foo.* so how would I go about saying "I am foo.sparticus" and be believed? | 20:44 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: sorry, got pulled into a side conversation. | 20:54 |
| ayoung | nkinder, I was worried my IRC client stopped working | 20:54 |
| ayoung | BUt I'm getting plenty of internal messages, so ... | 20:54 |
| nkinder | ayoung: it's not so much about being believed. I'm asking if we need a group that contains members "foo.blah" and "bar.blah". | 20:55 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, I don't know what that means. | 20:55 |
| nkinder | ayoung: the current approach requires that all members of a group use the group name as the prefix of their own name | 20:55 |
| simo | nkinder: ayoung: what is the question ? | 20:55 |
| ayoung | nkinder, in keystone, I would assume you were talking about user names | 20:55 |
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| simo | in the current KDS thing groups are strictly topics | 20:56 |
| ayoung | but in KDS, we are talking about the internal entities of Openstack | 20:56 |
| nkinder | ayoung: It'd be like saying you can create user groups as long as all members have the same first name. | 20:56 |
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| nkinder | simo: You caught us in a different conversation. | 20:56 |
| simo | but that's only because I used it only with messaging, it's an internal implementation detail of the KDS how you define memberships | 20:56 |
| ayoung | simo, so my question is, after the first message, can any group member impersonate the initial message sender and post to the topic? | 20:56 |
| nkinder | simo: ayoung is concerned that each group member has the shared signing and encryption keys, so one group member can impersonate the original sender. | 20:57 |
| nkinder | simo: I believe that the HKDF expand is protecting against this, as the source is provided as an input. | 20:58 |
| ayoung | nkinder, I just can't see how | 20:58 |
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| simo | ayoung: all group members are trusted at the same level | 20:58 |
| ayoung | simo, OK, so any group member can send to the topic? | 20:58 |
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| simo | ayoung: note that you send to group | 20:58 |
| simo | you do not receive messages from groups | 20:58 |
| simo | so the only effect here is that all members of the group can decrypt the message | 20:59 |
| ayoung | simo, so is it a series of point-to-points? | 20:59 |
| simo | ? | 20:59 |
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| nkinder | simo: ayoung is concerned that a group member can turn around and send a message to the group but spoof the original sender. | 20:59 |
| simo | but yeah each member of the group can forge messages to the group | 20:59 |
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| ayoung | OK, so I understand it correctly. | 21:00 |
| ayoung | simo, that would seem to me that we then need to tightly control group membership, no? | 21:00 |
| simo | nkinder: yes that's why I say all members of a group need to be trusted | 21:00 |
| simo | ayoung: it's in the admins hands | 21:00 |
| simo | you should advice to never create a group of compute. though of course | 21:01 |
| simo | or if you do that receiving a signed message to a compute node does not guarantee authenticity in any way | 21:01 |
| ayoung | simo, so I need to know how the Nova etc guys are planning on using this. | 21:01 |
| simo | ayoung: wehn a compute node send to scheduler | 21:01 |
| simo | it is fine | 21:01 |
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| simo | all the services named scheduler are strusted | 21:02 |
| ayoung | simo, but that is point to point, no? | 21:02 |
| simo | no compute nodes send to the schduler topic | 21:02 |
| simo | they do not address a specific scheduler | 21:02 |
| simo | the message can be delivered to any of them | 21:02 |
| simo | that's why we need groups in the first place | 21:02 |
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| ayoung | simo, so each compute node would get their own topic, and then the topic would be one compute node and all of the schedulers? | 21:02 |
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| ayoung | simo, it seems to me that a compute node would send a message to a single scheduler, and that scheduler would post to the topic. The group member must be trusted, and compute nodes are not trusted | 21:04 |
| simo | ayoung: not sure what you mean, but wait, an idea is forming in my mind to alleviate some of the impersonation issues ... | 21:05 |
| * simo thinks | 21:05 | |
| simo | ok I know how to avoid the impersonation issue | 21:05 |
| simo | I wonder why I had not thought about that before ... | 21:05 |
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| nkinder | simo: is there any protection against spoofing the sender on the messaging side? I know KDS itself doesn't supply anything here. | 21:06 |
| simo | it's just one more HKDF ... | 21:06 |
| simo | nkinder: I just thought how to do it ? | 21:06 |
| simo | let me think a little bit more | 21:06 |
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| simo | this may very well be worth adding | 21:06 |
| simo | (will need changes in KDS, but minimal) | 21:06 |
| ayoung | simo, seems to me that this is perfect use for asymetric crypto. Use symetric for the high volume point to point cases, but asym for group broadcast | 21:06 |
| ayoung | and trustd group can then use the group messaging | 21:07 |
| simo | ayoung: not necessary, give me a few minutes | 21:07 |
| ayoung | simo, fine....I'm interested to see what you come up with. | 21:07 |
| simo | what I am coming up is a way to make it impossible to spoof a different client to a group | 21:10 |
| simo | by deriving a key from the group key | 21:10 |
| simo | using the client identity to derive it with HKDF | 21:10 |
| simo | to the client we give only the derived key | 21:10 |
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| simo | ah wait | 21:11 |
| simo | nvm | 21:11 |
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| simo | I was wondering why I hadn;t thought of it before, clearly because it wouldn;t work :) | 21:11 |
| simo | well | 21:11 |
| simo | no it can work | 21:11 |
| simo | but only to avoid spoofing arbitrary clients | 21:12 |
| simo | you will still be able to spoof messages as sent from the speicfic client which is 99% of the badmess of it anyway | 21:12 |
| simo | ok nvm | 21:12 |
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| nkinder | simo: ok, I'll have to call this out as an API consideration then. | 21:14 |
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| simo | nkinder: yes it is extrememly important to make it clear | 21:16 |
| nkinder | simo: I was thinking of making group membership a bit more flexible. I know what you designed was enough for the messaging case, but it would be nice to explicitly define members in the group. | 21:16 |
| simo | ayoung: the problem is that public crypto works for signing, cannot work at all for encrypting | 21:16 |
| ayoung | simo, OK, I think we are at the same point. So, for "one sender, many listeners" we need to do something like how we use CMS in Keystone tokens | 21:16 |
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| nkinder | simo: regexes or wildcards could still be used to allow things like "scheduler.*" | 21:17 |
| simo | ayoung: I am afraid we'd need an hybrid system anyway to fix all use cases | 21:17 |
| ayoung | simo, private key signature of a message hash | 21:17 |
| ayoung | simo, that is fine. So long as we are clear of the limitations. | 21:17 |
| simo | nkinder: implementation specific *how* you do the grouping | 21:18 |
| simo | leave it out of the doc for now | 21:18 |
| nkinder | simo: well, we need an API to define how to set membership | 21:18 |
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| simo | nkinder: atm they are implicit by the name of the group | 21:18 |
| simo | ie only scheduler.something can be part of scheduler. | 21:19 |
| nkinder | simo: I know, and it makes the API odd from a REST perspective | 21:19 |
| nkinder | simo: there's no GET for a group, so creating a group with PUT can't return 201 with a Location | 21:19 |
| nkinder | there's no reason for a GET right now, as there's nothing to return other than the group name | 21:20 |
| ayoung | simo, the question is "how do those names map to how OpenStack names its internal resources" and I don't know the answer to that. Keystone does not know about individual compute nodes or schedulers | 21:20 |
| simo | nkinder: so ? | 21:20 |
| simo | ayoung: keystone is too dumb indeed | 21:21 |
| simo | ayoung: but why should I care about keystone ? | 21:21 |
| simo | kds manages this | 21:21 |
| nkinder | it makes the API odd, and it got me to thinking about the way grouping is done in KDS. | 21:21 |
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| simo | you have keys for scheduler.foo.bar and a group key for scheduler. | 21:21 |
| ayoung | simo, heh, I mean, I live in the Keystone world, so *I* don';t have the domain knowledge necessary. In this case, it isn't Keystone that is dumb, it is I. | 21:22 |
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| nkinder | simo: what I'm saying is that we wouldn't derive membership from the group name. A group would be comprised of a name and a list of member rules. A member rule would be something like "scheduler.*". | 21:22 |
| simo | nkinder: you can choose to make groups explicit, it will just add to maintenance, but would be fine by me | 21:22 |
| simo | nkinder: you'll be hard pressed them to add facility to automatically add members into groups based on regexes or something | 21:23 |
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| ayoung | simo, nkinder I don't think we should be defining this. THe naming of Cats is a difficult matter, as ALW stated. Lets find out from rustlebee and company what they actually need. | 21:23 |
| simo | nkinder: now that I think of it, I think explicit membership may be actually safer | 21:24 |
| nkinder | simo: I think it will be more flexible for other cases, and the API will be more normal. | 21:24 |
| simo | or we may want to change the way source and destination are defined for groups | 21:24 |
| ayoung | simo, that works for me, too. There is also the question of "how do you trust that someone is who they say they are when they ask for a key" | 21:25 |
| simo | nkinder: well at least for messaging you have no choice in how you make groups, they are 1-1 with topics | 21:25 |
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| simo | ayoung: they authenticate, that's how | 21:25 |
| simo | you can get a key for scheduler. only if your name is scheduler.foo.bar and you authenticates with the key belonging to cheduler.foo.baf | 21:26 |
| simo | *bar | 21:26 |
| ayoung | simo, so what you are saying is we really need Kerberos for all of this anyway. | 21:26 |
| nkinder | ayoung: no | 21:26 |
| simo | ayoung: kerberos does not do group keys at all | 21:27 |
| nkinder | ayoung: it already has this in the spec. Every individual party has a long term shared key with KDS. That's used to authenticate. | 21:27 |
| ayoung | nkinder, I know, I was just thinking that Kerberos/GSSAPI/SASL can be used to limit who can read from or write to a topic in QPID, which would solve the problem | 21:29 |
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| pabelanger | How about people create keystone users with the v3 API? python-keystoneclient shell doesn't support it | 21:35 |
| ayoung | pabelanger, you can use curl | 21:35 |
| pabelanger | ayoung: That's looks to be the only choice right now | 21:36 |
| ayoung | pabelanger, http://adam.younglogic.com/2013/09/keystone-v3-api-examples/ | 21:36 |
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| ayoung | pabelanger, python-keystoneclient supports it programmatically. Not from the command line, though. | 21:37 |
| pabelanger | ayoung: are you running policy.v3cloudsample.json for keystone by chance? | 21:37 |
| ayoung | pabelanger, not right now | 21:37 |
| ayoung | I'm not running a keystone server, though\ | 21:37 |
| pabelanger | ayoung: okay, let me read through your blog post. Thanks | 21:37 |
| dolphm | pabelanger: python-openstackclient w/ --identity-api-version=3 | 21:38 |
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| pabelanger | dolphm: Nice, I was just checking github to see if it supported it | 21:38 |
| ayoung | dolphm, can we make that the default? | 21:38 |
| dolphm | pabelanger: i'm not sure if v3 auth has been implemented on that side of the fence yet though, so you'll have to start with an existing token | 21:38 |
| dolphm | ayoung: working on it! | 21:39 |
| ayoung | I can see making 2 explicit, and 3 the expected version | 21:39 |
| ayoung | schweet! | 21:39 |
| dolphm | ayoung: with v3 auth in place, i think we should switch | 21:39 |
| ayoung | ++ | 21:39 |
| pabelanger | dolphm: okay cool, it will at least get me started | 21:39 |
| ayoung | dolphm, if you read up, you can see we had a long KDS discussion. Turns out there is something about groups that we need to rethink | 21:39 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, basically, with the existing spec, any group member can spoof a message to the group after it has received one message. | 21:42 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: so, you can't verify the sender's identity beyond it either being a member of the group or being a compromised key | 21:42 |
| ayoung | dolphm, correct | 21:42 |
| ayoung | dolphm, you can on the very first message, after that, it is all symmetric crypto | 21:43 |
| dolphm | ayoung: obligatory "that sounds like a feature for my use case so i'm going to take advantage of it" | 21:43 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: if that's the intended design, then doc it clearly so it's not a surprise? | 21:44 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, and I would think that even with the first message, there might be a race condition unless we have guaranteed in order message delivery | 21:44 |
| dolphm | ayoung: so don't bother making guarantees about the first sender either ;) | 21:45 |
| ayoung | dolphm, I think that is a question for, as topol likes to put it, "the stakeholders" | 21:45 |
| dolphm | ayoung: sure | 21:45 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: i assume this is because all group members have access to the private key, or... ? | 21:45 |
| ayoung | dolphm, yes, after the first message, they do. | 21:45 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: honestly sounds like a bit of a feature | 21:46 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: as long as it's not a surprise | 21:46 |
| ayoung | dolphm, if all of the group messages are trusted, then this is a very high speed way to send messages between the group memebers. It just doesn't confirm which member sent it. | 21:46 |
| ayoung | I just don't think that is the intention | 21:47 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, the use case simo mentioned was a compute node posting to a group of schedulers. THe schedulers would all be equally trusted, but I wouldn't think the same would be said for all compute nodes | 21:47 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, I am guessing we need a mix of asymetric crypto for authentication and symmetric for high volume point to point messages. Question is, without that, is KDS going to serve the needs of the Nova team. If we do KDS with no groups, or this limited group approach, is that OK? | 21:50 |
| ayoung | rustlebee, are you following? | 21:50 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: can members have guaranteed knowledge of how many group members there are somehow? | 21:52 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: worth hitting [nova] on -dev with the concern | 21:53 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, so that was nkinder's original question, that lead to this discussion. How do we determine if a consumer should have group membership. | 21:54 |
| nkinder | dolphm: not currently (at least not using the KDS API). | 21:54 |
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| nkinder | dolphm: Membership is determined by the group name. A group named "scheduler" will consider "scheduler.*" to be members. | 21:56 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, I'ma let you own this one, okay? | 22:06 |
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| dolphm | ayoung: if kds becomes a first class project, it needs a dumb name and i propose something to do with kites, because that's the tried and true safest way to get keys into the cloud. /me tips ptl hat | 22:11 |
| jamezpolley | *groan* | 22:11 |
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| simo | ayoung: mark and russell seemed ok with the limitation for a first version | 22:22 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, I love it, I propose Franklin | 22:24 |
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| simo | if we are into electricoity then I'd prefer Volta | 22:24 |
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| ayoung | dolphm, it also has the tie in with Pennsylvania, the Keystone state. | 22:24 |
| simo | but I could settle for machiavelli <g> | 22:24 |
| simo | the best part being americans won;t know how to pronounce it correctly :) | 22:25 |
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| simo | ayoung: does it need to be US centric ? | 22:25 |
| ayoung | simo, not at all...I was just riffing off dolphm 's pun | 22:26 |
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| * simo just realized kite, key, franklyn | 22:26 | |
| ayoung | http://www.codecheck.com/cc/BenAndTheKite.html | 22:26 |
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| ayoung | "several other would-be-scientists who performed this same kite experiment were electrocuted" | 22:28 |
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| nkinder | ayoung: I'll clearly spell out the limitation for now and we can work on moving forward. | 22:43 |
| ayoung | nkinder, ++ | 22:43 |
| nkinder | ayoung: the API doc is slowly getting beat into shape | 22:44 |
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| ayoung | nkinder, I just did another round on the revocation API doc myself....that is what I need to close out on before I2, and there are a lot of dependencies...for example, I think it is going to need morganfainberg 's reworking of KeyValues to be done. | 22:45 |
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| pmathews | Can I get some feedback on a change to Cinder? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59868/ | 23:07 |
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