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| veena | Hi, I cloned stable/icehouse code of neutron and ran ./run_tests.sh without changing any files. It has many errors, pasting the error in bin. http://paste.openstack.org/show/191221/ http://paste.openstack.org/show/191222/ http://paste.openstack.org/show/191223/ | 09:24 |
| veena | How do I solve these errors? | 09:24 |
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| gsagie | Hello all, i have a multi node devstack setup, controller and compute node, i am able to run the controller right but in the compute screen i see the following error "AMQP server on 10.100.100.4:5672 is unreachable" EHOSTUNREA (using neutron with ML2) , disabled all firewalls and i am able to ping between the hosts | 14:51 |
| gsagie | i double checked the configurations and they seems fine, anyone know what might be the problem? | 14:52 |
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| sdague | morganfainberg: you should check out the federated keystone section being poked at at - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PHL-ops-burning-issues | 18:25 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, thnx! | 18:25 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: I'm taking a stab at some "role" tags now, hope to have a draft up soon | 18:27 |
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| sdague | morganfainberg: thanks for jumping on there | 18:30 |
| morganfainberg | sdague, i'm in a meeting but will take a look | 18:31 |
| morganfainberg | sdague as soon as we're done | 18:31 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: role tags? | 18:35 |
| devananda | dhellmann: something attempting to answer "who's the intended audience" and/or "where does this fit in my stack" | 18:35 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: I'm going to sound like a broken record, but that seems like something we should be putting in a product guide, not a project governance repo | 18:44 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: if every project produced a product guide, how would an interested newcomber identify which product guides to go read? | 18:56 |
| dhellmann | devananda: OpenStack should have one product guide. We should list all of this info there. | 18:57 |
| devananda | and every project should contribute their own docs to it? or the doc team should write something covering all projects? | 18:57 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: I don't object to collecting it, just to making the TC do the collection and vetting and management | 18:57 |
| devananda | dhellmann: oh. I /definitely/ don't want the TC to do the collecting and vetting of it | 18:58 |
| dhellmann | devananda: Just like everything else - Some group of people who want the thing to exist should create it and solicit contributions. | 18:58 |
| devananda | dhellmann: I'd like the project PTL's to do that. | 18:58 |
| dhellmann | devananda: this would be a GREAT opportunity for the product working group or a group of operators | 18:58 |
| devananda | yup | 18:58 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: and I think tags, which they can manage, would address that | 18:59 |
| dhellmann | certainly the PTLs and other folks should be involved, but putting this all in the governance repo because we already have a list of projects there feels like we're using the wrong justification | 18:59 |
| dhellmann | devananda: tags are short-cuts for people who aren't willing to just go write a document :-/ | 18:59 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: tags are also short-cuts for people who dont want to go read a (bunch of different) document(s) | 19:00 |
| dhellmann | devananda: maybe I should just start it myself to show everyone what I mean, but I don't want to own it | 19:00 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: "audience" for a project has *nothing* to do with governance. The TC doesn't vote to say, "Yes, project X is intended for use by people Y." Why put that in a repo only the TC can approve changes in? | 19:02 |
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| dhellmann | put it in a project description in a product guide | 19:02 |
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| dhellmann | a product guide could include things like which package names to use under different distros, the age of the project, what it does, how it got started -- all sorts of things of interest to possible consumers that have nothing at all to do with the TC | 19:03 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: similar things could be said about release cadence | 19:04 |
| dhellmann | devananda: I'm pretty sure I've said them. :-) | 19:05 |
| devananda | heh | 19:05 |
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| dhellmann | we're fiddling around with taxonomy on things that just need writing down by someone -- they are facts, not things that need to be approved | 19:05 |
| dhellmann | it's like congress voting on science | 19:05 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: the tag template, and past discussions, all indicate that the TC can delegate approval of tag changes | 19:06 |
| devananda | except I dont think we should be voting on the tags themselves | 19:06 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: so the governance repos is no longer a place where we make decisions about how to run the project and is now a place where we describe components of the project? | 19:06 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: not the whole repo -- just tags. wasn't that their intent, to be descriptive? | 19:07 |
| dhellmann | devananda: the only tag proposal I've heard of that couldn't live in a Product Guide is the approval the TC needs to give for something to be considered for trademark use | 19:08 |
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| dhellmann | everything else could be handled as a description somewhere else, managed by people who know how to write those sorts of documents clearly and by people who want such a thing to exist | 19:09 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: ok, to be clear, your disagreement is with where tagging is stored, not with how tags are (proposed to be) used | 19:09 |
| devananda | yes? | 19:09 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: where they are and *who* is deciding on them. The TC should be approving projects and focusing the technical resources and direction of the project. Some members may want to contribute to a Product Guide, but we've spent way too much meeting time on this lately, and I'm worried we're losing sight of issues we should be addressing instead, like implementing some of the cross-project specs. | 19:11 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: I agree that we shouldn't require a TC vote for tags, but then, the template (and our past discussions) indicate that we can (and should) delegate that responsibility | 19:18 |
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| devananda | *for the tagging of projects with already-defined tags | 19:18 |
| dhellmann | devananda: can you explain why the TC should manage the list of tags at all? that's the thing I'm objecting to.. | 19:18 |
| devananda | dhellmann: the TC should delegate it, but also, different tag sets are likely to be delegated to different teams | 19:19 |
| dhellmann | devananda: ok, but if we're delegating management of the tags, why are we involved in defining what those tags are? | 19:19 |
| dhellmann | devananda: do you disagree that if someone created a Product Guide that would be OK and they could put all of this information into it without TC approval? | 19:20 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: because the tags themselves help to shape thinking around the projects, where we encourage (or discourage) the investment of time, and represent the types of committments that projects are expected to communicate up- and down-stream | 19:21 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: I don't think any of the tags I've seen do those things. Can you give an example? | 19:21 |
| devananda | dhellmann: at least, that's what I believe we set out to do, though we keep getting lost ... | 19:21 |
| devananda | dhellmann: release tags, for example, will inform distro packagers where to put their time, when to expect projects to create things they care about | 19:22 |
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| dhellmann | devananda: ok, but release tags are being defined by the release manager. he could have just put them in a README somewhere by now. | 19:23 |
| devananda | sure | 19:23 |
| devananda | and I'd expect the release manager to go on maintaining that list | 19:24 |
| dhellmann | again, I'm not arguing that the tags provide no value, just that they are not *governance* as much as product management | 19:24 |
| devananda | dhellmann: a description of the intended purpose of a project (user-interface, operator-tooling) would help newcombers quickly find the set of projects that might fulful their needs. | 19:25 |
| dhellmann | all of the discussions about tags seem to presume that the TC should be managing them, but then we talk about delegating the day-to-day stuff and so I wonder why be involved at all | 19:25 |
| dhellmann | devananda: we're going in circles | 19:25 |
| devananda | heh | 19:25 |
| devananda | so, I dont thinkg we're disagreeing actually | 19:25 |
| dhellmann | except that you still seem to think the TC should be tagging projects, and I still think we need someone to write us a product guide so we can go do things like decide how diverse teams should be before we allow them to be "official" | 19:26 |
| devananda | until you said "I don't think any of the tags I've seen do those things." -- and so I mentioned two sets of tags | 19:26 |
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| dhellmann | a taxonomy of release schedules is not a governance task | 19:27 |
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| devananda | isn't it? | 19:27 |
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| devananda | up until now, release scheduling was part of governance | 19:27 |
| dhellmann | not when one of them is "release whenever you want" :-) | 19:28 |
| dhellmann | meh, I don't know how to say this in different words. The wrong people are doing this work and the people doing it have other things that would be a better use of their time. | 19:28 |
| devananda | if a project didnt agree to have its releases managed by the rel-mgmt team, it couldnt be a part of openstack. changing that policy was, IMHO, clearly a TC level decision, and not something that should jsut be updated in a README | 19:29 |
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| devananda | but I agree - the folks working on this could definitley be doing other things :) | 19:29 |
| devananda | *a part of the openstack release | 19:30 |
| dhellmann | devananda: no, that's not right. Being a part of OpenStack does not imply that the release management team will manage the release. It very much does NOT imply that, because the release management team has to agree to take on that work. | 19:30 |
| dhellmann | sorry, misread what you said, yes changing that rule was a TC-level thing | 19:30 |
| devananda | dhellmann: I worded that poorly, sorry | 19:30 |
| dhellmann | but *now* it's not something the TC requires | 19:30 |
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| devananda | right | 19:31 |
| dhellmann | nah, I'm trying to follow 2 conversations at once | 19:31 |
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| devananda | another example real quick, and then I need to find food | 19:31 |
| dhellmann | right, so now that we've said "you're on your own for releases, see if the release team will help you" why do we need to "govern" the results? | 19:31 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: hmm. thinking about another example and I realized somethiing else instead | 19:40 |
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| devananda | dhellmann: we've been discussing tags around things that vary within our community, but not around the "youre in or youre out" sort of tags | 19:41 |
| dhellmann | devananda: and those are really criteria for accepting official teams, right? | 19:42 |
| devananda | dhellmann: by creating the release: set of tags, including the release:independent, the TC is clearly signalling to the community that something which was previously not ok ("if you do this, you're out") is now OK | 19:42 |
| devananda | dhellmann: but because it's OK, the TC no longer needs to judge it / watch it / curate it | 19:43 |
| devananda | so I'm wondering, is it precisely those things we're NOT tagging that the TC is implicitly setting up as "follow the status quo, or you're out" ? | 19:44 |
| dhellmann | devananda: is that not also made clear by dropping that from the list of requirements to be an official project, though? | 19:44 |
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| dhellmann | I do agree, it would be good for us to write down more of our expectations that we still hold. | 19:44 |
| devananda | dhellmann: maybe? does that list of requirements dovetail into tagging, though? | 19:45 |
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| devananda | eg, if we simply drop "releases managed by us" from requirements, there's no guidance left for projects | 19:45 |
| devananda | by creating a fixed set of tags, we're defining what is still OK | 19:45 |
| devananda | and then giving downstream consumers clear signals of how they can expect to consume things | 19:46 |
| devananda | I'm also reflecting back to when openstack was almost entirely IaaS projects -- and the inflection point where a lot of PaaS projects emerged | 19:46 |
| devananda | if we were applying the same governance tooling we have today, how would that have looked? would we have had changed the requirements, and created some tags instead? | 19:47 |
| devananda | eh, I really need food now... bbiab | 19:48 |
| dhellmann | devananda: ttyl | 19:48 |
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| bknudson | are people seeing a lot of test failures using testtools 1.7.0 ? | 20:42 |
| bknudson | I'm seeing several tests fail in keystone | 20:42 |
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| sigmavirus24 | bknudson: related to SkipTest not having a method/attribute? | 20:55 |
| sigmavirus24 | bknudson: if so, I'm seeing it in glance as well | 20:55 |
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| bknudson | sigmavirus24: that, and this: http://cdn.pasteraw.com/8wc90sw9lh8zdkg3zi8uk13yg1310pj | 20:56 |
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| jogo | tteggel: http://www.openstack.org/brand/openstack-trademark-policy/ 'We share the OpenStack Word Mark with the community for the purposes of open source discussion, development and support of the OpenStack project and technology. We understand that such use is mostly for non-commercial purposes and therefore we will allow the use of the OpenStack Word Mark, without a license, when used in a | 20:56 |
| jogo | referential phrase only to describe the OpenStack Project or the OpenStack code base, provided you comply with the following requirements:' | 20:56 |
| sigmavirus24 | bknudson: yes | 20:56 |
| sigmavirus24 | bknudson: /me was just remembering one of the false-positives he was seeing | 20:56 |
| jogo | ttx: although its not actually 100% clear to me if that applies to all repos under the TC | 20:56 |
| sigmavirus24 | lifeless: are you around? | 20:56 |
| jogo | ttx: or even if you can say 'hacking' is part of openstack | 20:57 |
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| jgriffith | jogo: not cool man | 20:57 |
| jogo | ttx: OpenStack™ | 20:58 |
| jogo | jgriffith: ? | 20:58 |
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| jgriffith | jogo: oh and even better... dansmith 's update | 20:58 |
| jogo | jgriffith: ohh that | 20:59 |
| jgriffith | jogo: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/159713/ | 20:59 |
| jgriffith | jogo: I'll never understand the attitudes | 20:59 |
| jgriffith | jogo: it's one thing to say "hey, I'm not totally sure about this with the unknowns" | 20:59 |
| jgriffith | jogo: but all the "buggy cinder code" "I'm -2 because it's a Cinder problem" blah blah | 20:59 |
| jogo | jgriffith: we are giving you the run around aren't we | 21:00 |
| jogo | sorry :( | 21:00 |
| jogo | take this to the nova room | 21:00 |
| jgriffith | jogo: then the flip flops between cores... "I want a config option" "I don't want a config option" | 21:00 |
| jgriffith | killin me | 21:00 |
| jgriffith | jogo: indicative of one of OpenStack's biggest problems if you ask me.... | 21:00 |
| jogo | jgriffith: well I was thinking a at least say this is for LVM or something | 21:00 |
| jgriffith | jogo: process to death and lack of concensus on anything | 21:00 |
| jogo | anyway lets go to -nvoa | 21:01 |
| jgriffith | jogo: sure | 21:01 |
| lifeless | sigmavirus24: hi | 21:01 |
| sigmavirus24 | lifeless: bknudson and I are seeing some problems with testtools==1.7.0. I've just added to my test-requirements to make sure it's testtools but it's producing failures that aren't failures | 21:02 |
| sigmavirus24 | lifeless: from bknudson: http://cdn.pasteraw.com/8wc90sw9lh8zdkg3zi8uk13yg1310pj | 21:02 |
| sigmavirus24 | And I'm seeing it in glance | 21:02 |
| lifeless | yeah, we're talking in -infra about it atm | 21:02 |
| sigmavirus24 | ah /me looks | 21:02 |
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| jogo | dhellmann: ping | 22:09 |
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| jogo | dhellmann: at this point it feels like the TC is beating around the bush for this big tent thing | 22:11 |
| dhellmann | jogo: ? | 22:12 |
| dhellmann | jogo: keep in mind, several key members were no present today, so we weren't going to be making any decisions today anyway | 22:13 |
| dhellmann | but afaict, we're right where we want to be: we asked for proposals so we could see what sorts of applications we would get, and now we're starting to evaluate them against our current ruleset | 22:13 |
| Kareesh | Hi Gents. I am recruiting for ZFUND. We are looking for 3 intermediate / senior developers. We have two positions available for HTML5 mobile ready developers and one position for a Graphics artist. We are offering the opportunity to stay in our 5 star resort in near-central Barcelona, Spain for the length of the project. We are offering a 3,000 – 4,500 euro wage depending on the skill and experience of t | 22:13 |
| Kareesh | he applicant. The villa is three minutes from the beach, all services and amenities are located near by and we have a gourmet/boutique chef in house. We estimate the length of the project to be around 2 – 3 months. If you wish you to apply for more information, please send your C.V to Georgeoustar@gmail.com. You may PM or Email me for more information. Thank you. George. | 22:13 |
| dhellmann | jogo: maybe that's just where I wanted to be, though :-) | 22:13 |
| jogo | true | 22:14 |
| dhellmann | jogo: it's late here, so I'm signing off, let's talk more tomorrow though | 22:14 |
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| jogo | sounds good, I am just surprised by the apparent lack of even remote consensus on this | 22:15 |
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| jogo | dhellmann: o/ | 22:15 |
| jogo | heck we don't even have the mechanics of adding non-tc managed tags in place | 22:16 |
| jogo | devananda: ^ | 22:16 |
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| devananda | jogo: at the moment, that's a shortcoming, indeed | 22:22 |
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| devananda | jogo: at the moment, I think that the definition of tags should be in governance/ -- but the application should be delegated, and whom it is delegated to depends on the tag | 22:23 |
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| jogo | devananda: sure, so what the mechanics of that? / do we even need to sort that out before dealing with new projects etc | 22:24 |
| devananda | jogo: eg, release: tags are delegated to rel-mgmt. the "use-case" tags that I started sketching out would be up to the PTLs | 22:24 |
| devananda | jogo: nah. we can address that in time, but not having addressed it does put a burden on the TC now | 22:24 |
| devananda | that incentivizes us to address it :) | 22:24 |
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| jogo | so I am still confused what the TC honestly needs to discuss before looking at the magnum application | 22:25 |
| jogo | in the old world model I understand what is needed | 22:25 |
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| jogo | but here, just not sure | 22:25 |
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| devananda | jogo: on one side, we dont need tags. on the other side, without tags, we're not communicating anything useful to folks by accepting it | 22:26 |
| devananda | the project (apparently) has only existed-as-code for 4 months | 22:26 |
| devananda | it's clearly not in the same category as Nova | 22:26 |
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| jogo | so that tradeoff about what being accepted into the openstack namespace means | 22:26 |
| devananda | no one's contending that it is -- but without having some means to communicate that, consumers will reasonably have a WTF moment when they see that we accepted it | 22:26 |
| jogo | was supposed to be an open and closed issue | 22:27 |
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| devananda | see my meeting comments re: ripping off the bandaid? | 22:27 |
| jogo | that ship sailed a long time ago IMHO | 22:27 |
| jogo | when incubated things just became simply 'openstack' things | 22:27 |
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| devananda | jogo: good point | 22:28 |
| jogo | and there in lies my confusion. This really sounds like a lot of second thoughts about the big tent | 22:30 |
| devananda | yup. it feels that way | 22:30 |
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| devananda | jogo: so really, I dont have any objection to adding Magnum. But also I think we need to have meaningful tags in place. | 22:30 |
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| jogo | which I totally get, I am still not a fan. but that isn't relevant right now | 22:30 |
| jogo | why? | 22:30 |
| jogo | devananda: also FWIW jeblair's response on the ML sounds like a solid one | 22:31 |
| * devananda points to lauren's email on the ML | 22:31 | |
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| devananda | jogo: lemme finish catching up on that thread ... | 22:31 |
| jogo | but tags are orthogonal | 22:31 |
| jogo | in some ways we are just discussing the application of a single 'tag' -- inopenstack | 22:32 |
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| devananda | jogo: one concern I have is that, not only is there no bar on quality, we aren't providing any means for anyone not involved in the day-to-day community development to guage the fitness of a project for use | 22:33 |
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| jogo | sure, we didn't have that in the old world in a really meaningful way either | 22:34 |
| devananda | no. but there was the *perception* of it | 22:35 |
| devananda | and there still is | 22:35 |
| devananda | moving to openstack/* still appears to bestow that blessing | 22:35 |
| david-lyle | just because the test wasn't successful in the old world, it was there to some degree | 22:35 |
| devananda | we're making it very clear thta it shouldn't by opening the doors | 22:35 |
| jogo | and that was one of the motivations for changing the tent model | 22:35 |
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| jogo | david-lyle: fitness of a project for use, how many openstack projects have you heard people complain about in major ways | 22:36 |
| david-lyle | I said the test wasn't successful | 22:36 |
| jogo | heat, AFAIK still has very fundamental issues, ceilometer is still struggling last I heard etc | 22:36 |
| devananda | but ALSO I think we (the TC) should be providing consumers (operators, users, distros, etc) with some way they can guage that fitness aside from "go run it yourself" | 22:36 |
| jogo | I just don't know to what degree it was really there | 22:36 |
| devananda | and we're not doing that | 22:36 |
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| jogo | at what point did big tent go from TC does less to TC should do more | 22:37 |
| devananda | yes, there are projects which graduated while still being, essentially, unusable at public cloud scale | 22:37 |
| devananda | jogo: eh? I'm not saying the TC is the source of that information | 22:37 |
| devananda | but we should provide a means for that information to be found | 22:37 |
| david-lyle | but it seems that there is still fundamental agreement at the bar for entry | 22:38 |
| Kareesh | Anyone looking for paid work? I need a graphics designer and a mobile website developer, pm me | 22:38 |
| devananda | dhellmann seems to think documentation is sufficient. I do not. I'd rather see tags whose moderation/application is delegated to responsible parties (which is probably not the TC) | 22:39 |
| jogo | david-lyle:yeah | 22:39 |
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| david-lyle | is it the 4 simple things in the governance docs, or are the architectural barriers to entry | 22:39 |
| jogo | david-lyle: AFAIK its that one simple doc | 22:39 |
| devananda | it should be that doc, and if it's not, the doc should be updated | 22:40 |
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| david-lyle | the meeting implied the latter, but those architectural questions are not in the one doc, which makes entry arbitrary | 22:40 |
| david-lyle | yes, if those are criteria, it should be documented | 22:40 |
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| david-lyle | but it's unclear if that is agreed upon criteria | 22:40 |
| david-lyle | how big of a tent was ordered? | 22:41 |
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| jogo | david-lyle: I believe it was a circus tent | 22:50 |
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| david-lyle | jogo: sounds right | 22:50 |
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