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| jogo | mordred: https://review.openstack.org/163660 | 00:59 |
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| jogo | mordred: is that too crazy of an idea? | 00:59 |
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| jogo | devananda: ^ | 01:01 |
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| devananda | jogo: mmmmm. I mean, it connotes stable maintenance, which isn't actually what you mean | 01:02 |
| devananda | jogo: i like s/core/?/ but not sure what ? is | 01:03 |
| clarkb | I don't think maintainer accurately reflects the job of core | 01:03 |
| jogo | erp forgot to put the actual resolution in there | 01:03 |
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| jogo | clarkb: any other ideas? | 01:04 |
| devananda | jogo: if I have time, I'm hoping to get to proposing fungi's requested tags tomorrow. feel free t othrow any furhter ideas on that my way, or comment on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/163236/ | 01:04 |
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| jogo | devananda: ack, will review em tomorrow | 01:04 |
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| jogo | devananda: just looked at the commit message | 01:07 |
| jogo | not sure about the second set of tags | 01:07 |
| jogo | user vs operator facing | 01:07 |
| jogo | don't know what is only operator facing | 01:07 |
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| devananda | jogo: ceilometer? ironic? | 01:08 |
| devananda | jogo: but yea, I'm not sure either. which is why it's WIP :) | 01:08 |
| jogo | I don't think there are enough of those to need a tag really | 01:08 |
| jogo | plus don't know if ironic will stay operator facing only | 01:08 |
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| jogo | anyway time for a run. I am interested in hearing what you think we should rename core as | 01:09 |
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| jogo | ohh essence or at least the thesaurus recommends that | 01:10 |
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| devananda | essense reviewer ? hmm | 01:10 |
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| jogo | ironic-essense | 01:48 |
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| jogo | devananda: just read your spec | 02:37 |
| jogo | devananda: more confused then ever on tags | 02:37 |
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| frobware | is there a means of reusing previously built venv packages? e.g. /opt/stack/.wheelhouse/cffi-0.9.1-cp27-none-linux_aarch64.whl | 10:46 |
| frobware | I'm bringing up a machine from scratch, installing devstack and I would like to make the install go a little faster. | 10:46 |
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| YorikSar | ianw: ping | 10:58 |
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| YorikSar | ianw: Could you please remove -2 from https://review.openstack.org/107386 ? New implementation of Neutron integration is almost there and I'd like devstack side to be ready too. | 10:59 |
| YorikSar | ianw: I'll keep it WIP until Neutron side is landed. | 11:00 |
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| fungi | devananda: thanks--i would have proposed them myself because i don't want to be one of those people who just complain they don't exist without helping, but it sounded like you and others already planned to knock it out so i'm avoiding duplicating work ;) | 13:01 |
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| TEST__ | Hi guys... | 15:09 |
| TEST__ | Need your help | 15:09 |
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| TEST__ | http://ask.cloudbase.it/question/356/boot-failed-not-a-bootable-disk-no-bootable-device/ | 15:10 |
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| jogo | ttx: ping | 16:03 |
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| ttx | jogo: in meeting, will ping you when done (30min) | 16:07 |
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| jogo | ttx: sounds good | 16:10 |
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| jogo | ttx: wanted to chat about the tag thing | 16:12 |
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| ttx | jogo: I should have 5-10min now | 16:15 |
| jogo | ttx: cool | 16:16 |
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| jogo | ttx: on the diversity side of things, looking at the current set of projects in openstack and they all have some diversity | 16:17 |
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| jogo | digging up when things got added to /openstack isn't very easy though | 16:17 |
| clarkb | jogo it should be tracked in git | 16:18 |
| jogo | clarkb: Jul 21 2014 is during Juno right? | 16:18 |
| clarkb | yes | 16:18 |
| jogo | so Manilla had diversity before it joined | 16:18 |
| ttx | jogo: yeah, integrated projects had a diversity requirement, and incubated ones were quite succssful at attracting contributors | 16:18 |
| jogo | ttx: but manilla attracted diversity before being incubated | 16:19 |
| jogo | anyway we can talk about this on the review easily | 16:19 |
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| jogo | so tags | 16:19 |
| jogo | are you saying deployers can't look at a project and figure out if it runs next to or on top of nova? | 16:19 |
| ttx | I thihnk the project that struggled the most with diversity-at-incubation-time was Designate | 16:19 |
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| jogo | are tags just a bunch of attributes that we think may be interesting to folks. so we wan them documented well? | 16:20 |
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| ttx | jogo: I'm saying (1) newcomers / prospective users arriving on the OpenStack ecosystem can't be presented a list of 150 code repositories, they need basic guidance on the most basic use cases | 16:20 |
| jogo | 150 repos but 21 programs | 16:21 |
| ttx | (2) that seasoned ops (as represented at the ops meetup) were VERY insistent that we define such tags (that surprised me too) | 16:21 |
| ttx | tags apply to repos though | 16:21 |
| jogo | why would deployers care about repos per se? | 16:22 |
| ttx | (3) that there is confusion about what the minimal set of projects to do openstack compute is | 16:22 |
| jogo | don't there care about what we ship | 16:22 |
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| ttx | we ship code tarballs. Those come 1:1 with code repos | 16:22 |
| jogo | and I don't think we can honestly answer that in an absolute way | 16:22 |
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| jogo | we don't shipp -specs | 16:22 |
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| jogo | etc. | 16:22 |
| clarkb | jogo: we kinda do | 16:23 |
| ttx | I discussed that earlier today with dhellmann, as we were discussing moving tags to a project-catalog repo | 16:23 |
| clarkb | we ship the implementation of specs (not that tags necessarily help map that onto the implementations but we do ship spec related items) | 16:23 |
| jogo | if tags are a way of making important attributes easier to find for users awesome | 16:23 |
| jogo | lets treat it as such | 16:23 |
| ttx | it might only make sense to talk about deliverables which may map 1:n to code repos in some extreme cases | 16:23 |
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| ttx | in which case we would apply tags to those deliverables | 16:23 |
| jogo | so this really sounds like something that belongs in docs | 16:24 |
| ttx | and ignore non-software-deliverables-generating repos | 16:24 |
| jogo | and not under the TC | 16:24 |
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| ttx | jogo: the project-catalog would not be under the tc | 16:24 |
| ttx | well, not more than any other project | 16:24 |
| ttx | The question is more, when to spin-off | 16:24 |
| jogo | now | 16:24 |
| jogo | so taking a step back for a second | 16:25 |
| ttx | I kinda wanted us to show the way and bootstrap the process, rather than throw a hot potato at a new group forming | 16:25 |
| jogo | well not sure if we need a new group, this is docs right? | 16:25 |
| jogo | we just need to add extra resources and work with them | 16:25 |
| ttx | but people seem to worry that this (documentation) work currently lands in a repo named 'governance' | 16:25 |
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| ttx | well, except that the work on this repo is VERY different from the work the doc team usually does | 16:26 |
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| ttx | since the data is maintained by the people who know best about each tag | 16:26 |
| jogo | my hunch is a lot of this confusion is around the notion that by lowering the barrier to code joining openstack the notion the value that something gets when being added decreases significantly | 16:26 |
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| jogo | and so the way around that is to use tags to help balance things out, so the power now moves to tags | 16:27 |
| jogo | but just not sure it will work that way | 16:27 |
| ttx | I prefer to call it "crowdsourcing description of projects" than "documentation" basically | 16:27 |
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| ttx | since this is not about writing prose as much | 16:27 |
| ttx | But then, I'd definitely want doc people in that team | 16:27 |
| jogo | that is a fair point a lot of this isn't writing prose | 16:28 |
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| ttx | Some of that info will be porovided by the TC, some by the ops etc | 16:28 |
| jogo | ttx: so do we expect down stream consumers to eventually say something like: | 16:28 |
| ttx | the release tags maintenance will be done by the release management team for example, etc | 16:29 |
| jogo | I only use projects that have the following tags: QA, diversity, stableAPI, etc. | 16:29 |
| ttx | jogo: I think each downstream consumer will have different requirements, and ideally they would use tag combination to describe them and navigate our ecosystem | 16:29 |
| ttx | so, yes. | 16:29 |
| jogo | right, so going back I honestly don't see how the layer matters in this | 16:30 |
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| jogo | it sounds like a different but related problem | 16:30 |
| jogo | why would an operator say I only deploy things that are part of nova-ring | 16:30 |
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| jogo | wouldn't it be better to clearly document what services each project depends on? | 16:31 |
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| ttx | jogo: ask them. In that session they all wanted a tag that describes a minimal "compute-cloud-with-persistence" | 16:31 |
| ttx | So we shall provide | 16:31 |
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| ttx | or even better, let them provide | 16:32 |
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| ttx | meeting restarts | 16:32 |
| jogo | that sounds like a deployer guide | 16:32 |
| ttx | brb | 16:32 |
| jogo | so at first tags are trying to replace the quality metrics we loose from the big tent model | 16:32 |
| jogo | and then we go off and solve unrelated issues with them | 16:32 |
| jogo | that just sounds off topic | 16:32 |
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| ttx | jogo: the tags are not (only) trying to replace quality metrics. They were initially addressing the fact that integrated release means too many different things. | 16:40 |
| ttx | Amongst those things is the notion of a base set of project | 16:40 |
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| ttx | and losing that facet was actually worry #1 for ops at the ops summit tag session | 16:40 |
| jogo | ahhh that makes more sense | 16:41 |
| ttx | Tags are about describing attributes of our projects that happen to be useful to our downstream users | 16:41 |
| jogo | so its less about what is cloud native as devananda calls it and more about the base set | 16:41 |
| ttx | Frankly, I didn't expect that they would care so much about that one, and was (like you) on the fence | 16:41 |
| jogo | I would add in tags are about making information easily accessible because that info is really already there | 16:42 |
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| ttx | oh, totally. If the information is not there somwhere it would be difficult to make objective tags | 16:42 |
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| ttx | tags are just a way to precisely define what words and to which projects they apply | 16:43 |
| ttx | rather than bitch forever about what cloud-native might mean | 16:43 |
| ttx | you define a cloud-native tag using a precise description of what that means, justify addition by explaining wht users would care about it, and go and list projects that correspond | 16:44 |
| ttx | Now, a lot of facets of the integrated-relase /are/ quality minima. | 16:44 |
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| ttx | so we should define some quality-oriented tags too | 16:45 |
| ttx | At the very minimum we need to cover the factes I described in http://ttx.re/facets-of-the-integrated-release.html, before we can retire the integrated-release comboconcept | 16:46 |
| ttx | facets* | 16:46 |
| jogo | I think russellb is right, the first sets of tag should replace the previous concepts we had | 16:46 |
| russellb | ttx: yeah, i liked the list you made in your blog post, good breakdown | 16:47 |
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| ttx | russellb: it didn't touch on implied meaning from our TC requirements though | 16:47 |
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| ttx | more on a downstream usage of the comboconcept | 16:47 |
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| russellb | yep | 16:47 |
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| russellb | but that's really the important end goal anyway | 16:48 |
| ttx | but I think that's actually what matters the most in this exercise | 16:48 |
| russellb | focus on what people really need/want to know | 16:48 |
| ttx | right | 16:48 |
| russellb | :) | 16:48 |
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| ttx | And I also agree we can't really retire the integrated-release until that deconstruction work into separate tags is completed. I just differ on the idea that freezing project team applications will help us there | 16:49 |
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| jogo | possible tags: Stable API, Upgrades tested, integration testing, | 16:49 |
| ttx | jogo: so on stable API... I discussed at the ops summit how to convey "stability" | 16:50 |
| ttx | (in the sense of I won't cut a feature from under your feet" | 16:50 |
| jogo | right, that is what we really want to say | 16:50 |
| ttx | Currently we have a (mostly unwritten) rule about deprecation | 16:50 |
| russellb | yeah we should write that down | 16:50 |
| ttx | one size fits all, 2 cycle deprecation | 16:50 |
| jogo | ttx: sort of the semver stuff from 0.x to 1.x | 16:50 |
| russellb | ttx: you had a nice ML post about a sane deprecation workflow for APIs | 16:50 |
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| ttx | I think we should turn that into various contracts | 16:50 |
| ttx | and then let projects pick what they want to commit to | 16:51 |
| ttx | basically if swift wants to say "we'll never ever deprecate an API or remove a feature" they should be able to commit to a very strict contract | 16:51 |
| ttx | Nova could stick to an intermediary version | 16:51 |
| ttx | and nascent projects could convey that they may cut anything anytime | 16:51 |
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| ttx | now THAT is useful for deployers | 16:52 |
| ttx | so that they know what they are getting into | 16:52 |
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| russellb | yes | 16:52 |
| jogo | yup | 16:52 |
| Tuxinator | Hi guys... Need your help > http://ask.cloudbase.it/question/356/boot-failed-not-a-bootable-disk-no-bootable-device/ | 16:52 |
| ttx | maybe that can be done as for the release tags, by defining 3 models and let people pick | 16:52 |
| jogo | also something that isn't easily discoverable | 16:52 |
| ttx | jogo: right, at that point the tag drives new documentation basically | 16:53 |
| ttx | jogo: hope that clarifies | 16:53 |
| ttx | I may not make total sense, I just jumped from a eastward intercontinetal flight | 16:54 |
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| jogo | ttx: heh that does make sense | 16:54 |
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| ttx | fwiw I also discussed "deprecation" with sdague in light of the EC2 situation | 16:55 |
| jogo | tags are really a tool to drive documentation in a consistent manor no? | 16:55 |
| ttx | and jim meyer had a great way of redefining it, where deprecation is deconnecvted from obsolescence | 16:55 |
| jogo | on items we think are important to make easily discoverable | 16:55 |
| ttx | jogo: it is a way to precisely define terms and precisely report where they apply | 16:56 |
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| sdague | ttx: actually, most projects are under a 1 cycle deprecation model, and only extend it for stuff they are really concerned about freaking folks out on. | 16:57 |
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| ttx | sdague: I think there is lack of clarity on that, at the very least | 16:57 |
| ttx | and in all cases if we define stability contracts, it would be >= | 16:57 |
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| ttx | i.e. "at least one cycle" | 16:57 |
| russellb | sdague: though perhaps more strict for REST API features | 16:58 |
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| ttx | sdague: especially if we embrace jim meyer's napkin concept | 16:58 |
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| russellb | hopefully more strict even | 16:58 |
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| jogo | ttx: well said | 16:59 |
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| ttx | (for the audience, the napkin described how deprecation (as in announcement by devs that code is abandoned) is separated from defining when the thing will be removed (obsolescence)) | 16:59 |
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| sdague | russellb: oh, yeh on API. | 17:00 |
| ttx | (and was the result of me confusing the two concepts into one and therefore rejecting the idea of "deprecating EC2 support") | 17:00 |
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| jogo | ttx: interesting, that is a good definition | 17:00 |
| ttx | let me post that image somewhere | 17:00 |
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| sdague | I should rev the deprecation patch now that I think we're generally agreed on that, also because it needs code change to work in the new oslo.log world | 17:03 |
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| ttx | jogo, russellb, sdague: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ThierryCarrez/posts/gu6FxSi4BcH | 17:05 |
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| ttx | I found some use for G+ as a pastebin | 17:06 |
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| ttx | wow, I win, Google can't say where I live. "6 people you know live in Austin, TX. Do you live there ?" | 17:07 |
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| jogo | ttx: napkin plan looks good! | 17:08 |
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| sdague | ttx: fyi, here is the new revision of the ec2 deprecation patch - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/150929/2 your commentary there would be appreciated to help move it forward | 17:28 |
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| gatuus | Hi, I want to know if/how I can create a Call for Speakers for the #OpenStackDayLatam ?? =) | 19:54 |
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| reed | gatuus left the chat too early | 21:22 |
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| reed | interesting topic being discussed on the list, about release announcements | 21:23 |
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| reed | I'm tempted to chime in and rant about the abuse of emails in many levels... | 21:24 |
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| linuxmaniac | is gerrit down or is just me? | 21:29 |
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| clarkb | I think its just you | 21:31 |
| linuxmaniac | ack, thanks | 21:31 |
| clarkb | double check there isn't a proxy between you and it killing connections? | 21:33 |
| clarkb | also it does have a AAAA dns record so ipv6 will likely be attempted if you have a local addr | 21:33 |
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| jogo | morganfainberg: ping | 23:59 |
| morganfainberg | jogo, pong | 23:59 |
| jogo | morganfainberg: does keystone log response times anywhere? | 23:59 |
| morganfainberg | jogo, uhm.. not that i'm aware of... | 23:59 |
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