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| openstackgerrit | Flavio Percoco proposed openstack/governance master: Document voting process for `formal-vote` patches https://review.openstack.org/463141 | 00:34 |
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| ttx | I missed the first part of the session, but this is how I understood it as well ("select for proposal to the TC") | 07:19 |
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| Anticimex | ref deprecating postgresql, I LOL:ed @ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/427667/ -- "This works on mysql with unpredicable result, but don't for other RDBMS." | 09:24 |
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| Anticimex | so let's accept broken SQL syntax and rmeove any RDBM:s which doesn't let it slip through :D | 09:25 |
| * Anticimex cries over the decaying programmer SQL knowledge and wonders if a SQL driving license should be required to write SQL code | 09:26 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Sean Dague proposed openstack/governance master: deprecate postgresql in OpenStack https://review.openstack.org/427880 | 12:18 |
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| mordred | Anticimex: ++ | 13:18 |
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| openstackgerrit | John Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Stop requiring public IRC meetings https://review.openstack.org/462077 | 16:18 |
| openstackgerrit | John Garbutt proposed openstack/governance master: Stop requiring public IRC meetings https://review.openstack.org/462077 | 16:19 |
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| dims | cdent : smcginnis : please update this? https://www.openstack.org/foundation/tech-committee/ | 16:20 |
| dims | mtreinish : thingee : ^^ | 16:20 |
| cdent | how? | 16:20 |
| sdague | dims: I'm pretty sure that's off the foundation CMS | 16:21 |
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| dims | ttx : fungi : know someone who can help? ^ | 16:22 |
| dims | thanks sdague | 16:22 |
| dims | cdent : i remember updating my Bio, looks like listing is not in git as sdague mentioned | 16:22 |
| cdent | dims: I think I updated my foundation bio a while ago, and it should still be mostly good (for the time being), but beyond that I think it is stuck on the foundation doing something. | 16:23 |
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| dims | y, based off of inc0's question, i was checking if we publish the current roster of irc nicks | 16:24 |
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| dims | looks like this one is good - https://governance.openstack.org/tc/ | 16:25 |
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| fungi | dims: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-org/+filebug or https://github.com/OpenStackweb/openstack-org/pulls if it's in a static file (rather than maintained in the cms backend db) | 16:33 |
| fungi | cdent: sdague: smcginnis: ^ | 16:33 |
| mordred | sdague: is there an appropriate channel to discuss os-api-ref ? | 16:35 |
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| mordred | sdague: (I couldn't find any channels that were getting patch notifications for it) | 16:35 |
| dims | fungi : not a static page - added a launchpad bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-org/+bug/1691175 | 16:37 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1691175 in openstack-org "Update list of TC members" [Undecided,New] | 16:37 |
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| sdague | mordred: here | 16:38 |
| fungi | jamesmcarthur: ^ request for tc membership update on the foundation site | 16:39 |
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| sdague | it's just me and mugsie more or less | 16:39 |
| sdague | so we did it all adhoc here | 16:39 |
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| sdague | mordred: oh, I thought we were pushing to #openstack-sdk on changes | 16:41 |
| mugsie | sdague: I thought it was going to -docs :) | 16:42 |
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| sdague | mugsie: oh... maybe? | 16:42 |
| sdague | I'm not in -docs | 16:42 |
| mugsie | no - I am in there, and there is nothing | 16:42 |
| mugsie | and I just rebased a few patches, so there shoudl be some activity | 16:42 |
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| sdague | mordred: I lost track of where this is even set | 16:44 |
| mugsie | mordred: you want to talk about the sub elements patch ? | 16:44 |
| mugsie | sdague: https://github.com/openstack-infra/project-config/blob/master/gerritbot/channels.yaml | 16:45 |
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| mugsie | looks like we dont push notifications anywhere | 16:45 |
| smcginnis | dims, fungi: Anything we need to add to that bug report? Or just wait and see? | 16:45 |
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| fungi | smcginnis: probably just wait. i can pester people via backend communication channels of necessary, but i expect they're exhausted/buried in the wake of the summit (i know i am too) | 16:47 |
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| dims | fungi : ack, no rush | 16:47 |
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| smcginnis | fungi, dims: +1, thanks. Wass wondering how/when that page would be updated. I agree, no rush. | 16:48 |
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| ttx | mordred: yes, #openstack-dev. Which is why I'd prefer a dedicated #openstack-tc channel. | 17:18 |
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| mordred | ttx: ++ | 17:20 |
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| notmyname | mordred: sdague: I was reading over the ML thread on the api keys. as I was going through it, the idea of limited or restricted use keys and create-able without needing to talk to an LDAP admin stuck out | 17:42 |
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| notmyname | mordred: sdague: that reminded me of the tempurl feature that's in swift. tempurls give time-limted access to a specific API verb for a specific resource, and they're authorized via an HMAC with a shared secret. are you familiar with this feature in swift? do you think something similar could be used to solve the stated problem? | 17:43 |
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| sdague | notmyname: it did come up in the room, the issue with it is that you'd have to teach every service how to do that | 17:53 |
| sdague | and the kinds of resources that exist on some of the services aren't quite as straight forward as uploading objects | 17:53 |
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| notmyname | it's no more "teaching every service" than any other cross-project initiative, is it? | 17:54 |
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| sdague | notmyname: it's a lot of plumbing | 17:55 |
| sdague | much more than "this is another thing that keystone says 👍 to" | 17:55 |
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| notmyname | yeah, to do the signed reuqests, all the plumbing is getting the shared secret in the right places | 17:57 |
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| notmyname | I'd live to have the ability to fetch from keystone, as a service, a secret that can be used to sign/validate requests | 17:57 |
| notmyname | as it is, keystone doesn't have that ability (AFAIK), so we store the shared secret in metadata in swift itself. it's pretty easy for swift to get that info ;-) | 17:58 |
| notmyname | so for other projects, it's trickier because of the interdependencies of the resources, but isn't that where the keystone can come in? providing the secret | 17:58 |
| sdague | notmyname: which then needs to be passed around between services? | 17:59 |
| notmyname | it could even be something like the token id itself, I suppose (might need to add the concept of a second valid token in order to allow rotation) | 17:59 |
| notmyname | yeah | 17:59 |
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| sdague | a big part of this as well is things that can be baked into instance images, that give them the ability to act as a user | 18:00 |
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| sdague | there is an instance users spec that's been circling for a couple of years on that front | 18:00 |
| sdague | that this moves us closer to | 18:00 |
| notmyname | eg user knows the token id, generates a signed request to launch an instance in nova. nova fetches the token id from keystone and validates the sig. alternatively, nova passes the sig to keystone and keystone does the validation, but that removes one of the advantages of the signed requests | 18:01 |
| sdague | notmyname: so, the reality is, I think that everyone that's pushing on this has a model of how the apikey flow would work | 18:01 |
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| sdague | but, the tempurl flow, not as much. | 18:01 |
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| notmyname | do we have a particular use case (ie user/customer somewhere) that is specifically needing it? | 18:02 |
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| sdague | notmyname: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/447031/5/resolutions/20170317-cloud-applications-mission.rst is a reasonable starting point, zaneb has worked through a lot of this in feedback with users | 18:04 |
| mordred | notmyname, sdague: fwiw, I do grok the tempurl flow too - so I'll be sure to include a write up in the next rev of the spec | 18:04 |
| notmyname | cool | 18:04 |
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| mordred | it's not unsimilar - but we can actually make a decent amount of headway with no additional code anywhere except in keystone wiht the current thinking on apikeys | 18:05 |
| mordred | we'll need to do per-service work to take futher steps | 18:05 |
| notmyname | sdague: is that the right link? I get a manefesto vibe from that, not a "I have a production problem that can't be solved until you implement this feature" | 18:05 |
| mordred | but we can move hte ball down the field at the very least | 18:05 |
| mordred | notmyname: the main use cases are: | 18:05 |
| notmyname | mordred: sdague: to be clear, I'm not suggesting that swift's tempurls perfectly solve the stated problem or should be used for this. only that the discussion reminded me of something that's already been implemented and working successfully in one case | 18:06 |
| mordred | notmyname: * I want to spin up a VM to perform work that includes manipulating OpenStack APIs but I do not want to put my main account credentials into that vm | 18:06 |
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| mordred | notmyname: * I have a federated auth system, such as AD/LDAP and I don't want to put my corporate AD login into automation scripts, but I do want to be able to do some automated tasks | 18:07 |
| mordred | notmyname: and yes- I totally tihnk the tempurl is a great example of a solution to at least parts of this problem and should definitely be included in the discussion | 18:07 |
| * mordred has to hop on call real quick ... | 18:07 | |
| notmyname | mordred: yeah, those are great things. I want them for my apps too! thanks for spelling it out :-) | 18:08 |
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| mordred | notmyname: sure thing! if we can get there, I think we'll all be happier :) | 18:09 |
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| zaneb | notmyname: we also have signed urls in Zaqar. sometimes they're the Right Thing | 18:49 |
| notmyname | cool | 18:49 |
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| zaneb | notmyname: but as a general solution they're fairly unmanageable for the app developer, especially when you get into services calling other services | 18:50 |
| zaneb | they work best for one-shot kind of stuff | 18:50 |
| notmyname | yeah, depends on what's exposed, I guess? eg if the "give me an instance" api call is signed, but behind the scenes it does the Right Thing for calling other services with it's own(?) creds, and all that's hidden from the user, then maybe it would work? | 18:51 |
| notmyname | but I gather that is *not* how that api works today. instead, the app dev has to know a lot more about each individual service | 18:51 |
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| sdague | notmyname: and there are a bunch of different ways that you might want to build instances, including provisioning volumes / networks up front | 18:54 |
| sdague | so, it would definitely add a whole complexity to having to manage all of that. It feels like it might be a better approach for data services than control/orchestration services. Makes a ton of sense that zaqar also has it. | 18:55 |
| notmyname | to riff on douglass adams... " and there are a bunch of different ways that you might want to build instances". This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1-the-story-so-far-in-the-beginning-the-universe-was) | 18:55 |
| notmyname | sdague: ya | 18:56 |
| sdague | notmyname: yeh, maybe, but people already have a lot of existing infrastructure this has to coexist with | 18:56 |
| notmyname | would be a lot easier if we didn't have users ;-) | 18:56 |
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| sdague | or hardware | 18:56 |
| sdague | :) | 18:56 |
| notmyname | true | 18:56 |
| notmyname | :-) | 18:56 |
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| mugsie | /win 55 | 19:10 |
| mugsie | -_- | 19:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/governance master: cap sphinx below 1.6.1 https://review.openstack.org/465154 | 19:16 |
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| lbragstad | johnthetubaguy: are you planning on attending the policy meeting tomorrow? | 19:38 |
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| openstackgerrit | Flavio Percoco proposed openstack/governance master: Drop Technical Committee meetings https://review.openstack.org/459848 | 20:22 |
| openstackgerrit | Flavio Percoco proposed openstack/governance master: Document voting process for `formal-vote` patches https://review.openstack.org/463141 | 20:22 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: cap sphinx below 1.6.1 https://review.openstack.org/465154 | 20:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Remove the proxying section from charter https://review.openstack.org/463140 | 20:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance master: Change the target for this goal to uWSGI not Apache mod_wsgi https://review.openstack.org/460951 | 21:03 |
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| mordred | dhellmann, sdague (or anyone else) ... I've had a few things recently in shade that feel like they should be more like a "spec" and less like a normal bug. I dont think the shade team is big enough to warrant an extra repo though - so I was thinking about just putting them in shade's normal sphinx docs ... that's different from all the other teams though, and I don't want to be gratuitously different | 21:55 |
| mordred | how important/not-important do you think the distinction is in this case? | 21:56 |
| dhellmann | mordred : seems like a reasonable experiment | 21:56 |
| cdent | mordred: sounds a lot of like nova's devref stuff: lengthy explanations of "why" | 21:56 |
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| mordred | cdent: yah - I think that's the thing I'm aiming at - "the API-WG has a spec on version discovery, here's what that means in shade, why, and how it should be implemented" | 21:58 |
| mordred | dhellmann: cool | 21:58 |
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| edleafe | mordred: explanations are very much at home in code, especially code that is dependent on externals | 22:02 |
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| mordred | cool. I like it when my thinking isn't super off-base | 22:03 |
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| xarses | mordred: I've run into some oddity using os_client_config. I'm making a script that uses it. if I set OS_CLOUD in the shell It then anything that calls through os_client_config.make_config() fails to pull the env. Asking for a cloud="somename" works, as does the argparse example | 22:20 |
| xarses | https://docs.openstack.org/developer/os-client-config/#argparse | 22:21 |
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| xarses | sorry os_client_config.get_config | 22:21 |
| mordred | xarses: hrm. that does seem to be a bug - lemme try to reproduce it locally real quick | 22:22 |
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| mordred | xarses: http://paste.openstack.org/show/609726/ it's working for me- can you paste code? | 22:24 |
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| xarses | ya, I'll write it up for you, I was hoping I was doing something stupid | 22:24 |
| xarses | oh, also on 1.27.0 | 22:24 |
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| mordred | yah- that should be good | 22:25 |
| mordred | xarses: sorry I don't have a quicker answer... but you are definitely describing a thing that _should_ work | 22:25 |
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| inc0 | dhellmann: hey, since we're still using this channel:) I was reading log from tc meeting | 22:34 |
| inc0 | and was kinda wondering why did you say "no feedback besides we want to do this"... | 22:34 |
| inc0 | what feedback can I give you? I think I already iterated benefits for users | 22:35 |
| inc0 | this is, in fact, probably most requested feature for Kolla | 22:35 |
| inc0 | other communities outside openstack does that freely | 22:35 |
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| inc0 | and CVE/packaging/"support" can be dealt with by creating manifesto of versions per container with track of CI jobs, which we wanted to do anyway | 22:36 |
| inc0 | what else can I say? | 22:37 |
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| xarses | mordred: https://gist.github.com/xarses/55e2517bd49903df2c5ec7ff5f697d74 | 22:41 |
| xarses | the short is, get_config() doesn't want to run twice | 22:42 |
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| xarses | and it works fine if OS_CLOUD isn't used in the traditional openrc style | 22:43 |
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| fungi | inc0: is the feedback that your users want upstream-supported images suitable for production deployment, or convenient images produced upstream they can use for quick demos and proof of concept environments? | 22:44 |
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| fungi | inc0: the latter is pretty easy to cover as long as we communicate the limitations of voluntary support for upstream-produced images | 22:45 |
| mordred | xarses: awesome thanks! I think we should make that able to be called multiple times | 22:45 |
| inc0 | fungi: I agree, and I'd be happy to send this message | 22:46 |
| inc0 | that's my point all along | 22:46 |
| fungi | the challenge there, i think, is making sure the communication is effective | 22:46 |
| inc0 | thing is, if they want to test/stage these images, there is no good reason why they will be any worse than locally built | 22:47 |
| inc0 | and more likely will be, in fact, better | 22:47 |
| bkero | Not sure if this is known. novnc URLs are broken when using not-from-package in devstack. | 22:47 |
| bkero | vnc_auto.html doesn't exist. There's vnc.html and vnc_lite.html. Changing the URL manually works. | 22:47 |
| inc0 | fungi: well, we can provide README's, warnings | 22:47 |
| fungi | not being a user of container technologies myself, i don't really know the extent to which people blindly trust things they find on dockerhub or view them with the same skeptical eye as other non-distro package ecosystems | 22:47 |
| bkero | The package used in the devstack gate works though. | 22:47 |
| inc0 | fungi: well, depends on person really imho, but fact of life is these images are set of already maintained packages in distro | 22:48 |
| fungi | bkero: maybe bring it up in #openstack-qa so the devstack maintainers are more likely to see it (or file a bug)? | 22:48 |
| inc0 | I don't want to say what people should or shouldn't trust | 22:48 |
| bkero | fungi: Yeah, I should do both. | 22:48 |
| bkero | Just need to find the time. | 22:49 |
| inc0 | I want to let them know exactly what images are and that's it | 22:49 |
| mordred | inc0: sure- but I think what we're trying to uncover is what, if any, implied assumptions exist | 22:49 |
| inc0 | well, I think assumptions are personal. As Sean said in ML, there are people running devstack prod | 22:50 |
| inc0 | did we warn them? yes we did | 22:50 |
| inc0 | but ultimately it's up to users | 22:50 |
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| inc0 | and while there will be people who misuse this, well, nothing we can do about that | 22:50 |
| mordred | so- right. but we're trying to learn which things we need to communicate and how | 22:51 |
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| mordred | and which things we might be communicating to people unwittingly | 22:51 |
| xarses | mordred: ya, me too. looking closer https://gist.github.com/xarses/55e2517bd49903df2c5ec7ff5f697d74#file-gistfile2-txt looks like its the second instance of OpenStackConfig that is causing the problem | 22:51 |
| inc0 | mordred: we have number of ways | 22:51 |
| xarses | I'll file a bug on lp | 22:51 |
| inc0 | my personal favorite is doc, readme in dockerhub | 22:51 |
| inc0 | and each container manifesto with version list and CI-path | 22:51 |
| inc0 | if we need more info, let's provide more info | 22:52 |
| mordred | inc0: yah. I totally understand - and that may well be what we wind up doing - but I feel like perhaps the context from which some of these questions are being asked isn't quite coming across fully clearly | 22:52 |
| inc0 | maybe, because I really can't quite understand what exactly are we trying to protect ourselves from | 22:53 |
| inc0 | running opensource puts responsibility on person who runs it | 22:53 |
| mordred | yah. I owe an email to the list on this thread - I will try to explain the background | 22:53 |
| fungi | so anyway, if the desire from your users is for upstream support of images (to the same level of diligence as a commercial distro), and the ones who just want minimally-supported upstream built images for non-production purposes is small, then it's not a great justification | 22:54 |
| fungi | s/is small/are few/ | 22:54 |
| inc0 | fungi: I still think a lot of people will actually build their images after a while | 22:55 |
| mordred | inc0: that is not the only place where responsibility lies. open source communities also participate in security remediation and providing security updates to things that have been published | 22:55 |
| mordred | I believe we're trying to understand to what extent and via what mechanisms such expectations lie | 22:55 |
| inc0 | yes, but we are responsible for code we own | 22:55 |
| fungi | if you have a way of figuring out whether the users asking for it are wanting supported-for-production images from you, that would help inform the decision | 22:55 |
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| inc0 | fungi: there are multiple groups | 22:55 |
| inc0 | and yes, I know people who will use these images on prod | 22:56 |
| inc0 | but these people knows exactly what they're signing up for | 22:56 |
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| inc0 | and they are happy to take that risk because frankly? There is little no clear added risk as opposed to build locally | 22:57 |
| mordred | use in production and supported-for-production are the differences ... so if people who are using these in prod are not expecting us as an upstream community to respond as if the images are "production supported" - then that's fine (and similar to how people consume stuff we publish to pypi) | 22:57 |
| fungi | and are willing to rebuild on their own or live with vulnerabilities if we have delays in our ci from time to time (or worse, if we later decide to stop producing images for whatever reason)? | 22:57 |
| inc0 | and, in fact, there is less risk | 22:57 |
| inc0 | fungi: yes | 22:57 |
| inc0 | also worst case scenerio, kolla community can help too | 22:58 |
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| xarses | mordred: https://bugs.launchpad.net/os-client-config/+bug/1691294 . Thanks! | 23:00 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1691294 in os-client-config "multiple OpenStackConfig().get_one_cloud() calls fail when using OS_CLOUD" [Undecided,New] | 23:00 |
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| inc0 | let's manage expectations, not block progress please | 23:01 |
| inc0 | there are some very real negative impact that lack of images will cause for us | 23:01 |
| inc0 | and I'm talking of kolla community, not users even | 23:01 |
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| mordred | inc0: sure. not trying to block progress - trying to understand implications | 23:02 |
| mordred | so that we can manage expectations, etc | 23:02 |
| inc0 | so way I think it could work is: | 23:03 |
| inc0 | CVE is published in let say, mariadb | 23:03 |
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| inc0 | we don't follow it, but mariadb with fix is releaed in upstream repo of centos | 23:04 |
| inc0 | since we rebuild every day, it takes at most 24hrs for this to land | 23:04 |
| inc0 | unless infra is down, which can happen | 23:04 |
| fungi | (at best within 24 hours... at worst it could be weeks!) | 23:04 |
| mordred | what about older tags? | 23:04 |
| inc0 | then people who notices that can either come to #openstack-kolla and raise | 23:04 |
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| inc0 | mordred: that's up to how are we going to handle dockerhub, entirely up to us, easiest would be only daily and let people decide what they want to keep | 23:05 |
| inc0 | fungi: if that happends, we can always trigger this manually | 23:05 |
| mordred | inc0: so one of the options being that we don't really have historical tags and instead just push up latest frequently and go from there? | 23:06 |
| inc0 | I wanted to start from that, yes | 23:06 |
| mordred | nod | 23:06 |
| inc0 | and figure it out as we go, since dockerhub will store it, we can work on this | 23:07 |
| fungi | so anyway, what i was trying to express on the ml is that if the way users of these images should figure out whether they need to upgrade is to subscribe to security notices from the underlying distro vendor(s) for the packages being aggregated and compare an accompanying package manifest against their cve trackers, then that needs to be documented and communicated clearly to them | 23:07 |
| inc0 | fungi: I couldn't agree more | 23:07 |
| mordred | ++ | 23:08 |
| inc0 | we will slowly grow all the tooling for that kind of introspection | 23:08 |
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| mordred | inc0: cool. I'll send an email to the list when I get up tomorrow (doing that thread is top of my morning todo list) | 23:09 |
| inc0 | thank you mordred | 23:09 |
| fungi | took me a while to read through all of it myself. i was taking the first few days of this week off and it snuck up on me while i wasn't looking | 23:10 |
| mordred | yah | 23:10 |
| inc0 | it's a lengthy thread | 23:10 |
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| inc0 | all started today so it's not your time off;) | 23:10 |
| fungi | well, it's also proof i'm not doing such a great job of taking time off :/ | 23:11 |
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| inc0 | I think that's problem of most of us here.. | 23:11 |
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| inc0 | problem we're trying to solve (among other things) is that people, on their own, aren't rebuilding containers often enough | 23:13 |
| inc0 | and don't build any CI systems | 23:13 |
| inc0 | 80% of OpenStacks are sub-100 nodes | 23:14 |
| inc0 | we can actually help them there.. | 23:14 |
| mordred | xarses_: https://review.openstack.org/465195 | 23:14 |
| mordred | xarses_: I think that should fix you | 23:14 |
| mordred | xarses_: thanks for the bug report | 23:15 |
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