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| openstackgerrit | Anne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions https://review.openstack.org/579668 | 19:00 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions https://review.openstack.org/579668 | 19:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anne Bertucio proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions https://review.openstack.org/579668 | 20:46 |
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| notmyname | cdent: you said, "If there is a already a niche of tool that provides useful and mature functionality don't reinvent it and don't use something weird. The classic example here in OpenStack is using the eventlet-based web server." Can you help me understand this? I'm not sure if this is pro or anti eventlet | 21:34 |
| cdent | notmyname: it's anti use the eventlet based web server that some of the services have used for their apis (notably nova-api until recently). And by proxy it is anti-eventlet. | 21:36 |
| cdent | I'm trying to say: if you're making a web service and it's just a web service use mod_wsgi/uwsgi/gunicorn/etc | 21:37 |
| notmyname | so using eventlet is the "us[ing] something weird" instead of apache/modwsgi | 21:37 |
| notmyname | ok. thanks for the clarfication | 21:38 |
| cdent | well, these days I wouldn't recommend apache/modwsgi, but essentialy yes | 21:39 |
| cdent | any advice on how to make that a bit ore clear? | 21:39 |
| notmyname | just be explicit. adding your second comment ("if you're making a web service...") would be good to make your meaning clear | 21:40 |
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| cdent | thanks. most of that what transcribed from handwritten notes while sitting outside | 21:41 |
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| notmyname | when I read it, and a coworker, neither of use were sure if you were saying eventlet was a "niche tool that provides useful and mature functionality" or not. I think you'll find advocates for both perspectives on eventlet :-) | 21:44 |
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| cdent | notmyname: I think eventlet is an abomination... | 21:46 |
| cdent | any other observations or things I can clear up? | 21:46 |
| notmyname | another eyebrow-raiser was the "mocks considered harmful" perspective | 21:47 |
| notmyname | I don't think you were unclear on that point. just, like eventlet, not an opinion we share :-) | 21:47 |
| cdent | mocks are the worst thing I've ever seen for creating maintainable code | 21:49 |
| notmyname | (except for eventlet, amiright?) | 21:49 |
| notmyname | ;-) | 21:49 |
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| cdent | they are nice for testing existing code, but if you need them for creating new code then bad smell | 21:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Doug Hellmann proposed openstack/project-team-guide master: fix a few formatting nits in new cycle highlights section https://review.openstack.org/579698 | 21:49 |
| notmyname | I don't know what you mean by using mocks for creating new code | 21:50 |
| cdent | If you're working on a new class or function and are writing tests for it and the natural flow of the tests requires mocks, then in my experience that means the class should be designed differently | 21:51 |
| notmyname | I normally see mocks for stuff like socket operations and disk/file operations. in those cases, they often make the code and tests quite a bit more readable. my experience is different than yours | 21:54 |
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| cdent | and that difference is entirely why I frontloaded the post with so much "the point here is discussion" | 21:57 |
| cdent | I don't really want to say "nobody should ever use mocks ever" but instead "for me, they've proven dangerous" | 21:57 |
| cdent | and where your experience and my experience meet we get something good | 21:57 |
| smcginnis | I've found mocks invaluable in being able to actually be able to test a unit of code rather than a large chunk of interacting code, but I've certainly seen it abused in horrible ways. | 21:58 |
| smcginnis | And of course there are the large groups of tests we have that test that mocking something returns the mocked result. | 21:59 |
| cdent | bingo. | 21:59 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: Adds Cycle-Highlights directions https://review.openstack.org/579668 | 22:01 |
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| cdent | notmyname, smcginnis : did either of you have any concrete reaction to the bits about maintainership? | 22:05 |
| notmyname | heh | 22:05 |
| smcginnis | cdent: Very strong agreement on the need to take care of bugs and refactoring before features. | 22:07 |
| notmyname | I respect your opinions that you wrote, but I don't personally think they lead to a sustainable project. yes, bug fixing and refactoring is important, but new features can't be deferred | 22:08 |
| smcginnis | But as the usual, no good ideas as to how to encourage that to happen when everyone getting paid to work on OpenStack is being paid by companies that want their cool new feature added. | 22:08 |
| smcginnis | I think with better focus on bugs and things, it actually can accelerate getting new features in. | 22:08 |
| cdent | notmyname: my point wasn't to deter features, but to change who does them | 22:09 |
| smcginnis | So maintainers help guide people trying to land new features, not be the ones trying to land new features. And fix bugs. ANd do code reviews. And refactor that thing you've been meaning to refactor for the last three cycles. | 22:10 |
| cdent | I tend to think that those of us who are effectively maintainers already need to make the responsibilities more visible to our employers. I'm not sure how. | 22:10 |
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| notmyname | in my experience, "maintainers" are active participants in landing new features. and the features often have a strong maintenance perspective. I think it's a false dichotomy to separate "maintainers" from "feature developers", as if one is more important or even as if they are different people | 22:11 |
| cdent | notmyname: I don't know for certain, because I've not spent much time, but I've always felt that swift managed to keep a tighter focus on what it was and was trying to do than most of the rest of openstack | 22:12 |
| cdent | and that appeals for more "maintainers" is the result of the lack of clarity and focus in vision | 22:12 |
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| cdent | also (and perhaps I should have made this more clear) but the term comes from the forum session in vancouver that rocky tried to hold about making opensack more maintenance oriented | 22:15 |
| notmyname | when I hear "maintenance", I think of the ability to understand the code, find bugs, and cleanly add new features. this is distinct from being easy to maintain in production (ie an ops role) | 22:16 |
| cdent | yes | 22:16 |
| cdent | the idea that I was working from was that people who are maintainers are engaged in maintaining the health of the code and community related to it, like gardeners | 22:17 |
| cdent | ecosystem fluffers | 22:18 |
| notmyname | heh, I had a garden metaphor in my mind, too | 22:18 |
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| cdent | and a lot of that is aesthetic: making sure incoming visitors do not recoil in terror | 22:18 |
| cdent | or if they must, they at least have a soft landing | 22:19 |
| cdent | notmyname: our timezone mismatch is proving problematic once again, I really need to get to bed. If you've got more thoughts I'd love to hear them, either as a comment on the post, or on the email thread that it references | 22:20 |
| notmyname | ok. talk with you later | 22:21 |
| * cdent waves goodnight | 22:21 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-team-guide master: fix a few formatting nits in new cycle highlights section https://review.openstack.org/579698 | 23:56 |
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