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| *** ChanServ changes topic to "First official meeting is 1/15 at 19:00 UTC - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/diversity-wg-agenda" | 04:52 | |
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| spotz | amrith aprice cdent cmurphy eglute fungi ildikov jhebden lsell__ mkrai mrhillsman wendar - Meeting in 90 minutes agenda link is https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/diversity-wg-agenda | 17:32 |
|---|---|---|
| cdent | thanks for the reminder spotz | 17:33 |
| cdent | totally would have spaced it otherwise | 17:33 |
| spotz | cdent: No woorries, I know we might have reduced attendance just didn't want to skip another week | 17:33 |
| cdent | (and still may not be able to make it :( ) | 17:33 |
| spotz | cdent: Main thing is if you have comments on the older survey wording feel free to comment on the etherpad with them. The sooner we can get a revised survey out the better | 17:34 |
| * cdent nods | 17:35 | |
| fungi | spotz: did you see my reply on the ml regarding what "odd weeks" means from an openstack scheduling perspective? | 17:37 |
| spotz | fungi: Yeah I figured we'd discuss whether we want set weeks or rotating other weeks tooday which should address that | 17:38 |
| fungi | just didn't want there to be confusion | 17:38 |
| spotz | fungi: Yeah and we'll probably need to adjust the WoO meeting entry too:) | 17:39 |
| fungi | (specifically, confusion as to what dates the calendar on eavesdrop.o.o will claim are meeting days) | 17:39 |
| fungi | worst case, you use a "weekly" entry and then just skip off-weeks | 17:39 |
| spotz | fungi: Has the move to project channels helped with that? | 17:40 |
| fungi | no clue. most of the meetings i attend still use the central meeting channels rather than hosting them in their project-specific channels | 17:40 |
| spotz | fungi: Ahh, yeah I'm still on the channels and see them active, all mine are in normal channels though except for OUI | 17:41 |
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| cdent | Is it 90 minutes from 90 minutes ago? | 18:58 |
| ildikov | spotz: fungi: I like better the every second week rather than 1st and 3rd day of a month as I always lose track... | 18:58 |
| ildikov | cdent: yes :) | 18:58 |
| spotz | ildikov: yeah me too kinda:) | 18:58 |
| spotz | cdent - according to my reminder alarm you have 2 minutes:) | 18:59 |
| cdent | I can only know what it is if I know what it was last week | 18:59 |
| fungi | ildikov: by "every second week" you mean alternating weeks? that's my preference mainly just because we have a scheduling tool which supports that method | 18:59 |
| fungi | while we don't have a good solution at the moment for scheduling a meeting on "the first and third monday of each month" | 18:59 |
| spotz | Ok it sounds kinda unanimouos, just let me know how to fix the entry and I'll re-patch | 19:00 |
| fungi | but we shouldn't be a slave to our tools either, if there's a good reason to add support for the latter | 19:00 |
| fungi | spotz: it's what your entry already has | 19:00 |
| fungi | so shouldn't need fixing | 19:00 |
| spotz | fungi: Sweet, so I just need to remail the list:) | 19:00 |
| ildikov | fungi: yes, alternating what I meant | 19:01 |
| cmurphy | o/ | 19:01 |
| fungi | yeah, my correction when replying was that you mad mischaracterized what your patch actually did | 19:01 |
| fungi | s/mad/had/ | 19:01 |
| spotz | And let's get this party started | 19:01 |
| spotz | No mad is probably accurate:) | 19:01 |
| fungi | ;) | 19:01 |
| spotz | #startmeeting diversity-wg | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Jan 15 19:01:40 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is spotz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: diversity-wg)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'diversity_wg' | 19:01 |
| spotz | +topic Roll Call | 19:01 |
| cdent | o/ | 19:02 |
| ildikov | o/ | 19:02 |
| spotz | #topic Roll Call | 19:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: diversity-wg)" | 19:02 | |
| spotz | And just for reference | 19:02 |
| spotz | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/diversity-wg-agenda | 19:02 |
| spotz | So looks like with the holiday we'll be a small group. I think everyone who's here except maybe fungi has seen oouor first topic | 19:04 |
| spotz | #topic Mozilla Open Source Survey | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Mozilla Open Source Survey (Meeting topic: diversity-wg)" | 19:04 | |
| spotz | #link https://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/4077523/Diversity-Inclusion-in-Open-Source | 19:04 |
| spotz | I think that link will work for everyone, but the main thing I'd like us too look at is how soome of the questions are worded and the breakdowns they used especially gender | 19:05 |
| cdent | they did a really good job in that of never making me feel bad for not liking any of the options | 19:05 |
| ildikov | :) | 19:06 |
| spotz | Yeah and at the same time you weren't always choosing other and having to fill it in | 19:06 |
| cdent | yup | 19:06 |
| ildikov | I wonder how much typing we feel efficient for surveys | 19:07 |
| ildikov | otherwise I agree to the above | 19:07 |
| spotz | When we did the first survey I was hoping for something similar but we ended up with M/F/and I think other. That's something I'd like us to improve on this go around as it will ultimately give us better data to compare | 19:07 |
| aprice | o/ | 19:08 |
| aprice | Sorry I'm late | 19:08 |
| cdent | yeah, m/f/other is not going to inspire confidence in the rest of the survey | 19:08 |
| spotz | ildikov: I think we should always provide the opportunity for someone to give their opinion, but where possible have enough entries they can find their response so we don't have to go back and try to see if person A is really saying the same thing as person C | 19:08 |
| spotz | Hey aprice:) | 19:09 |
| aprice | Hello :) | 19:09 |
| ildikov | spotz: +1, my thought too | 19:09 |
| ildikov | spotz: also I think we get more people fill out the whole form if they don't necessarily have to type that much overall | 19:09 |
| cdent | yes, click instead of type good | 19:10 |
| spotz | ildikov: yeah and if you only type where you want to say something the typing will have more value | 19:10 |
| ildikov | spotz: +1 | 19:10 |
| spotz | So main reason for starting with the Mozilla survey is to bring it to everyone's attention and to get an idea of how we might change some of our questions especially gender. I'm not sure how we broke up age groups or if we necessarily want to renumber, unless it's in such a way we can still compare | 19:12 |
| spotz | Unfortunately the draft version of the first survey didn't have all the drop downs actually there | 19:13 |
| spotz | I can pull up the link if anyone wants to see the google doc, though the actual questions are on the etherpad. | 19:14 |
| spotz | #topic Revisions of original survey | 19:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Revisions of original survey (Meeting topic: diversity-wg)" | 19:14 | |
| spotz | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/diversity-survey-spring-2018 | 19:14 |
| cmurphy | those are the questions on the original survey? | 19:14 |
| spotz | So as far as I know these are the final questions, aprice if they're not can you up date the ether from what you found in surveymonkey? | 19:15 |
| aprice | Yep - I can take that action item | 19:15 |
| spotz | cmurphy: To the best of my knowledge. After our kickoff I sent the list an email with as much digging through the older material as I could | 19:15 |
| spotz | @action aprice - update the etherpad with any missing/wrong questions from the original survey | 19:16 |
| spotz | #action aprice - update the etherpad with any missing/wrong questions from the original survey | 19:16 |
| spotz | I can type I swear! | 19:16 |
| aprice | :) | 19:17 |
| spotz | So just working through what we do have. Do we still want to find out country of birth as well as country of current residence? | 19:17 |
| spotz | Main reason for this was that we were gooiong to ask if they fely like a minority I believe ooriginally | 19:18 |
| spotz | Yeah and my o is borked, I'll fix before i hit enter when I catch it:) | 19:18 |
| aprice | I think that current residence is more actionable and we should try to keep the survey as short as possible | 19:20 |
| spotz | I actually do like these questions (they'll have a drop down of all the countries) as I think it gives us some insight into relocations. If we thought it useful could follow up with did you move for work/personal/school | 19:20 |
| cmurphy | do any of us in this group have a background in sociology or similar? I know survey crafting is touchy and it'd be nice to have professional eyes on it | 19:21 |
| spotz | aprice unless there's more in survey monkey we're sitting at 14 with the what else question at the end so not too bad if we want to add | 19:21 |
| spotz | cmurphy: I did a survey foor my thesis about water quality and perceptions:) But that's also why I like adapting the Mozilla stuff where we can | 19:22 |
| cmurphy | spotz: awesome | 19:22 |
| fungi | do we know whether mofo engages sociologists and research scientists on their survey? | 19:22 |
| fungi | or whether they're just "winging it?" | 19:22 |
| spotz | we could also hit up Daniel from Bitergia and folks from CHAOSS as we'd like oour stuff to be integrated | 19:23 |
| spotz | fungi I can check with Emma | 19:23 |
| spotz | i actually invited her to join us as she's on the woO list | 19:23 |
| fungi | cool, i'd be wary of cargo-culting surveys based on the incorrect assumption that we're copying from someone who actually did what we're afraid we don't | 19:25 |
| spotz | fungi: I think that's also part of the driving force behind CHAOSS, to have goood questions that can be used between different communities and provide comparable data | 19:26 |
| ildikov | yeah | 19:27 |
| fungi | great | 19:27 |
| ildikov | and also really just the process to give a starting point to communities who would like to do surveys like this | 19:27 |
| spotz | So even if 75% of the questions become baselines and 25% is OpenStack specific I think we are doing the right thing for us as well as Open Source as a whole | 19:28 |
| ildikov | sounds good to me :) | 19:29 |
| spotz | So I've marked the first one (Couontry of birth) as maybe removoe for length, the second (reside) as a keeper. And if no one objects I'd like to mark the gender one as adapt from mozilla. Any objections? | 19:29 |
| cmurphy | +1 to the gender question from moz | 19:29 |
| spotz | I think with the mozilla oone we can combine questions 2 and 3 | 19:30 |
| spotz | err 3 and 4, sexuality and gender | 19:31 |
| cdent | no objections | 19:31 |
| fungi | yeah, about halfway through the mofo survey now, and agree the gender question was... lots of options. i couldn't think if any obvious omissions (plus there's always the write-in field) | 19:32 |
| spotz | So the next question is religious identity, I think this ties back to questions 1 and 2 to perhaps determine if someone might feel they were a minority based on religion | 19:33 |
| spotz | fungi yeah I think someone would be hard-pressed to not find themselves there | 19:33 |
| spotz | So do we feel this is still something valid to ask? | 19:34 |
| fungi | we did have a lengthy debate back when the original survey was done, suggesting that asking for religious or political identities was overreaching and unlikely to represent a significant insight | 19:35 |
| spotz | And I realize we may need to table answering that as maybe 3-4 religions might be present | 19:35 |
| spotz | fungi: Yeah and we did ditch the political one, I mean what one party is called in one country could be totally different in another | 19:36 |
| fungi | i'm curious, did we get any useful insights out of the religion question last time? | 19:36 |
| spotz | also if aprice finds it wasn't on the final survey monkey we can rip it out | 19:36 |
| ildikov | I'm a maybe with the religion, but no on the political one | 19:37 |
| spotz | I could have sworn I emailed out a link to a presentation done in Tokyo, give me 2 more minutes to see if I can find it quickly | 19:39 |
| aprice | With religion, I think it's helpful because religious holidays can affect participation. | 19:40 |
| cmurphy | i would think that religious expression could play a part in someone's comfort level in attending in-person events, e.g. comfort with traveling to certain countries or food options at events | 19:40 |
| cmurphy | aprice: ++ | 19:40 |
| ildikov | aprice: is that significant? | 19:41 |
| aprice | I think so | 19:41 |
| aprice | Because we want to make sure OpenStack events are as inclusive as possible | 19:41 |
| aprice | So we need to identify the religious holidays that may not be on our radar | 19:42 |
| ildikov | ok, from events perspective it makes sense | 19:42 |
| ildikov | however as the venue availability decides dates many times as well | 19:43 |
| spotz | Ok so religion stays in, we will put together a list of possibles to include and most likely an other unless we can find an all inclusive list like the Mozilla gender list | 19:43 |
| spotz | And slide deck froom Tokyo | 19:43 |
| fungi | should we instead ask whether contributors find that observance of their religious or national holidays hamper full participation in the community? | 19:43 |
| spotz | #link https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1pB-2YZDVyPDwSOgO7ASe6M8o3DOXyDHO4R5Jv9h7n34/edit?usp=sharing | 19:43 |
| spotz | fungi I think that would be a good way of wording it, maybe follow up with a blank or an optional drop doown to choose from? | 19:44 |
| ildikov | fungi: +1 | 19:44 |
| spotz | Only problem with optional questions is sometimes youo still have to fill them oout | 19:45 |
| aprice | fungi +1 | 19:45 |
| cdent | if we ask that question, and they say "yes" but we haven't asked them their religion, we can't do anything with the answer | 19:45 |
| cdent | I think the idea here it gather enough information to pre-emptively try to do the right thing? | 19:45 |
| cdent | s/it/is to/ | 19:46 |
| spotz | cdent which is my suggestion of using a folloow up | 19:46 |
| spotz | If it's not an issue move on, if it is we'd like to know what religion | 19:46 |
| fungi | cdent: to the contrary, even if we know their religion or nationality we don't know which specific holidays are creating the challenge | 19:46 |
| fungi | but yes, don't need to hash that out now | 19:46 |
| cdent | that presumes that that one issue is the holidays | 19:46 |
| cdent | we can't guess what matters, indeed the entire point of being inclusive is that we don't know, now | 19:47 |
| cdent | but with information we are more empowered | 19:47 |
| spotz | We've got 13 minutes left we can stay oon this for another 10, and then I'd just like to talk vancouver planning and PTG but I may not be there so will need someone to lead | 19:47 |
| cdent | I agree, however, that asking these questions can seem intrusive, so it is a balance | 19:47 |
| ildikov | I think we can always do follow-up surveys, so I wouldn't shoot for all the info at once | 19:48 |
| spotz | actually looking at fungi's we should break out national holidays possibly? | 19:48 |
| spotz | ildikov: That was the original plan as well as a resend to get more responses but neither happened | 19:49 |
| ildikov | like if many people feel that we're organizing events when they cannot participate we can dig deeper next time | 19:49 |
| ildikov | making everyone happy is the unreachable target | 19:49 |
| spotz | heheh | 19:49 |
| cmurphy | I think a y/n "does your religion affect your participation" + blank space to describe is the best way, as cdent said we can't really anticipate right now how to break it down specifically | 19:50 |
| spotz | Do you find that observance of their religious or national holidays hamper full participation in the community? - | 19:50 |
| spotz | Ok notes made on fingi's re-write are | 19:50 |
| fungi | i like cmurphy's idea | 19:50 |
| spotz | poossibly break into 2, also possible followup of what religion | 19:51 |
| fungi | it avoids the tricky business of asking people what their religion is | 19:51 |
| ildikov | I think "does your religion affect your participation" can easily be misunderstood | 19:51 |
| spotz | Ok so follow up with a blank space for please explain? | 19:51 |
| ildikov | or to phrase it another way I don't interpret it in a way as we talked about it above | 19:52 |
| fungi | "do you feel that your religion presents challenges for participation in the project?" | 19:52 |
| fungi | is that less easily misunderstood? | 19:52 |
| spotz | fungi: project or in OpenStack? | 19:52 |
| ildikov | I think we could add examples like how the Mozilla survey does | 19:52 |
| fungi | if we're only asking them about openstack, then in openstack is probably fine | 19:52 |
| ildikov | like holidays always overlap with conferences, or smth like | 19:53 |
| fungi | worth noting though that the mofo survey doesn't focus on their projects | 19:53 |
| spotz | ildikov: So unable to attend for religiouos oobeservance, unable to participate due to? | 19:53 |
| spotz | fungi: And neither really did we first time around, it was pretty broad | 19:53 |
| ildikov | spotz: it's better | 19:54 |
| fungi | also remember that we're headed down the path of the openstack foundation sponsoring multiple communities besides openstack itself, so could have a bit of an identity crisis for these sorts of efforts needing to decide whether they're openstack-specific | 19:54 |
| spotz | fungi: Well we could just say in the community? Then we couold re-use for openStack, kata, etc? | 19:55 |
| spotz | or we start off also with what communities under the fooundation do you participate in? | 19:55 |
| fungi | very good questions ;) | 19:56 |
| spotz | Ok I'll copy and paste those 2 comments on the end of the etherpad. I'd like to then move on to just a quick ptg/summit discussion | 19:56 |
| spotz | #topic summit/ptg | 19:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "summit/ptg (Meeting topic: diversity-wg)" | 19:57 | |
| spotz | So I may or may not make it to PTG, does the group want me to try to get us some space? I could always dial in | 19:58 |
| spotz | I do think even though the group is so new it would provide some benefit even if everyone just met for lunch | 19:58 |
| fungi | i'm happy to pitch in on discussions at the ptg if available, but also expect to be stretched thin so can't make any guarantees | 19:59 |
| cdent | ditto | 19:59 |
| cmurphy | I would +1 meeting for lunch, -0.5 on reserving space unless we have a set of goals we want to accomplish | 19:59 |
| cmurphy | ditto to being stretched | 19:59 |
| spotz | Ok so lunch/dinner meeting if possible | 20:00 |
| fungi | i will make participating in diversity discussions high priority at least, and lunch or dinner seems most likely to pan out for me | 20:01 |
| ildikov | +1 | 20:01 |
| ildikov | I vote for lunch :) | 20:01 |
| spotz | Ok Vancouover - we should definitely put in for a WG space when those open up. I am thinking about putting in a talk, hopefully to go over the survey responses but if not the survey itself and what we're hoping to gain. If anyone else would like to jooin on that let me knowo | 20:02 |
| spotz | And if someone know how to fix my o without going to the Apple store... :) | 20:02 |
| cdent | spotz: is it a new macbook pro? my keys are starting go after only 8 months | 20:03 |
| spotz | Is there anything else we should shoot for in Vancouver? | 20:03 |
| spotz | cdent yep, had an issue with 7 that fixed itself noow it's o | 20:04 |
| fungi | likely they need to pop in a new keyboard :( | 20:04 |
| cdent | feels like dirt | 20:04 |
| spotz | fungi: Yeah so Apple store time. | 20:04 |
| fungi | (for my older netbooks, i bought up a stack of replacement keyboards so i could replace them myself when the membranes started to wear thin) | 20:05 |
| spotz | Ok closing this oone down as it's time for Upstream Inst meeting. If anyone has any other thoughts for Vancouver or wants in on the proposal let me knoow. See everyone in 2 weeks! | 20:05 |
| spotz | #endmeeting | 20:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "First official meeting is 1/15 at 19:00 UTC - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/diversity-wg-agenda" | 20:05 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Jan 15 20:05:38 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/diversity_wg/2018/diversity_wg.2018-01-15-19.01.html | 20:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/diversity_wg/2018/diversity_wg.2018-01-15-19.01.txt | 20:05 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/diversity_wg/2018/diversity_wg.2018-01-15-19.01.log.html | 20:05 |
| spotz | I'm still about though:) | 20:06 |
| cmurphy | thanks spotz | 20:06 |
| spotz | thanks everyone for coming:) | 20:06 |
| cdent | thanks! | 20:07 |
| *** cdent has quit IRC | 23:17 | |
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