Thursday, 2015-02-26

« Wednesday, 2015-02-25 Index Friday, 2015-02-27 »
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openstackgerritAnish Bhatt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Fix accidental change in neutron id  https://review.openstack.org/15930200:30
openstackgerritMatthew Kassawara proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Migration of l3ha-ovs scenario in Networking Guide  https://review.openstack.org/15898300:30
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openstackgerritMatthew Kassawara proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install-guide] allow guest access for rabbitmq  https://review.openstack.org/15930700:39
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openstackgerritDarren Chan proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Migration of cli sections in End User Guide  https://review.openstack.org/15727001:33
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openstackgerrityuji hagiwara proposed openstack/api-site: Fix Incorrect parameters for Neutron Port APIs  https://review.openstack.org/15932302:47
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openstackgerritTakanori Miyagishi proposed openstack/api-site: Fix a incorrect parameters for "Create/Update router"  https://review.openstack.org/15900505:31
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openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/api-site: Imported Translations from Transifex  https://review.openstack.org/15900606:02
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openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Imported Translations from Transifex  https://review.openstack.org/15934606:14
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openstackgerritLiu Xinguo proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update huawei driver configuration  https://review.openstack.org/15076107:06
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/api-site: Imported Translations from Transifex  https://review.openstack.org/15900607:20
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Imported Translations from Transifex  https://review.openstack.org/15934607:21
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openstackgerrityuji hagiwara proposed openstack/api-site: Fix missing parameters for Neutron security group API  https://review.openstack.org/15893907:25
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openstackgerritSayali Lunkad proposed openstack/training-guides: Modifies osbash files to use osbash ssh keys  https://review.openstack.org/15866807:33
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openstackgerrityuji hagiwara proposed openstack/api-site: Fix missing parameters for Neutron security group API  https://review.openstack.org/15893907:45
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: [install-guide] allow guest access for rabbitmq  https://review.openstack.org/15930707:54
openstackgerrityuji hagiwara proposed openstack/api-site: Fix missing parameters for Neutron security group API  https://review.openstack.org/15893907:57
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openstackgerritAlexis GUNST proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Add Debian image default user  https://review.openstack.org/15939310:02
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openstackgerritIldiko Vancsa proposed openstack/api-site: Add Samples endpoint to the Telemetry API Reference  https://review.openstack.org/15917710:23
openstackgerritIldiko Vancsa proposed openstack/api-site: Add Capabilities endpoint to Telemetry API Reference  https://review.openstack.org/15939810:23
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openstackgerritSayali Lunkad proposed openstack/training-guides: Modifies osbash files to use osbash ssh keys  https://review.openstack.org/15866810:59
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openstackgerritDarren Chan proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Edits to the launch instances section  https://review.openstack.org/15941311:18
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openstackgerritDarren Chan proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Edits to the launch instances section  https://review.openstack.org/15941311:24
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openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update CLI reference for python-glanceclient 0.16.0  https://review.openstack.org/15943312:08
openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update CLI reference for python-ceilometerclient 1.0.13  https://review.openstack.org/15943412:10
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openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update CLI reference for python-cinderclient 1.1.1  https://review.openstack.org/15943512:17
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openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-doc-tools: [commands] fix generator for latest python-openstackclient  https://review.openstack.org/15944813:08
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openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update CLI reference for python-openstackclient 1.0.2  https://review.openstack.org/15945213:11
openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-doc-tools: [commands] fix generator for latest python-openstackclient  https://review.openstack.org/15944813:15
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openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-doc-tools: [commands] fix generator for latest python-openstackclient  https://review.openstack.org/15944813:27
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openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-doc-tools: [commands] fix generator for latest python-openstackclient  https://review.openstack.org/15944813:40
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Sam-I-Ammornings13:56
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Sam-I-Ammmmmeeting?13:59
AJaegermorning, Sam-I-Am !14:00
Sam-I-Amhi14:00
AJaegerWhere's annegentle?14:00
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Sam-I-Amhm i dont know14:01
Sam-I-Amjust e-mailed her14:01
AJaegerIs she disguised as notsogentle or guest today? ;)14:02
Sam-I-AmAJaeger: thanks for the nodes on that past.14:02
Sam-I-Amnotes14:02
Sam-I-Ampatch. mobile typing is not working :)14:02
AJaeger;)14:02
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Add Debian image default user  https://review.openstack.org/15939314:02
Sam-I-Amfigured we might see some issues with the teme14:02
Sam-I-Amthere's anne14:02
AJaegeryeah...14:02
AJaegergood morning, annegentle14:02
annegentlehey all14:02
annegentlesorry I'm late14:02
annegentlewe have a meetbot in here so let's do this14:02
annegentlehm14:03
annegentlethat didn't work14:03
AJaegerReally a meetbot? I doubt it.14:03
AJaegerannegentle, just a way to publish to eavesdrop14:03
annegentle#startmeeting docteam14:03
openstackMeeting started Thu Feb 26 14:03:31 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.14:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:03
annegentlethere we go14:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'docteam'14:03
annegentle#topic Action items from last meeting14:03
Sam-I-Amoh, its in here.14:03
Sam-I-Amfancy14:04
AJaegercool14:04
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annegentlewelcome nickchase14:04
annegentlethe last meeting had14:04
annegentleasettle to investigate arch guide as a project for a docs swarm14:04
nickchaseMorning, all.14:04
annegentleshe emailed me and I think it's a great idea, so sure!14:04
annegentleShe's also looking for a location for them to meet up informally on the other side of the world14:05
annegentleand then someone from RedHat is booking a spot for their swarm Aug 13-1414:05
annegentlefrom 2 weeks ago we had no action items14:05
annegentleso, let's talk about review guidelines14:06
annegentle#topic Review guidelines14:06
annegentleanyone want to start or do you want me to do a recap?14:06
nickchaseI think a recap is probably in order.14:06
annegentleOkay, how far back? We've had difficulties with people being frustrated with doc reviews for a while, going to Tom's ranty rant after the summit :)14:07
annegentleThen last week nickchase also expressed frustration on the mailing list -- with nit picks mostly14:07
Sam-I-Amthe review guide on the wiki goes back pre-paris14:07
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Fix accidental change in neutron id  https://review.openstack.org/15930214:08
annegentleah yes Sam-I-Am14:08
annegentlewe had a discussion in Atlanta that resulted in the Wiki page at:14:08
annegentle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/ReviewGuidelines14:08
Sam-I-Amit was  intended to make the juno install guide go in nice and easy during the rush period14:09
annegentleany other context or history14:09
AJaegernot as an excuse, just to set perspective: Compared to some integrated projects, it's very easy to get patches into the manuals14:09
AJaegerBoth from the setup perspective as well as how we review stuff14:10
annegentleyes I agree completely, and was wanting to bring that up as well14:10
AJaegerThat's why we get many new folks - and some that only do a single patch14:10
Sam-I-Amyeah we're easy :)14:10
AJaegerSo, we help onboarding other contributors into OpenStack.14:10
annegentleour timing is good, is our accuracy good?14:10
nickchaseThat's one way of looking at it. :)14:10
AJaegerIf they get scared by us, they wouldn't survive the integrated projects ;)14:10
annegentleheh we're the nice ones14:11
AJaegerStill I would love to have them onboarded14:11
nickchaseYes, you know, that's a great way to think about it.14:11
Sam-I-Ama lot of people get their ATCs with docs14:11
annegentleyeah there are definitely people with info in their heads that we need out of their heads14:11
annegentleSam-I-Am: really? I don't think it's statistically significant?14:11
AJaegerI'm not saying we can rest, I think we're all convinced that we can improve14:11
nickchaseagreed.14:11
annegentleyes14:11
Sam-I-Amannegentle: i know of a few14:12
annegentleso what are some of the solutions?14:12
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AJaegerwe also have to balance whatever we do with the work it puts on us.14:12
nickchaseMaybe we should have a boilerplate email for first time contributors.  When we do a review...14:12
annegentleSam-I-Am: it's less than 1% I'm sure of all ATC badges14:12
Sam-I-Amwe're probably the least-encumbered project. you can patch an isolated thing in docs and not go through a whole gating process.14:12
AJaegernickchase, we have already14:12
annegentlenickchase: we do14:12
nickchaseof their first patch, we should maybe send them an email that explains....14:12
nickchasewhat we're doing and why so they don't get freaked out.14:12
nickchaseI'm not familiar with this initial email.14:13
Sam-I-Amthere is one, but maybe it could use some updates14:13
nickchaseEveryone knowing it exists would be good. :)14:13
Sam-I-AmAJaeger: do you know what manages it?14:13
annegentlenickchase: I'll find one, we've had a lot of new contributors to api docs lately14:13
AJaegerSam-I-Am, some infra magic14:14
annegentle#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/154484/14:14
annegentlenickchase: look at the "Welcome, new contributor!" line for the text14:15
annegentle"don't be concerned if requested to make corrections"14:15
annegentle"be paitent and be available"14:15
nickchaseyes, I was just looking.14:15
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nickchaseI'm thinking there are definitely some things that could be added.14:15
AJaegerThe text was written by Tom fifieldt14:15
fifieldthola14:15
AJaegerIt'S the same text for all projects14:15
nickchaseHey, fifeldt14:16
annegentlenickchase: yes, just grep for key phrases in the infra repos14:16
nickchaseaha.14:16
annegentlehey fifieldt14:16
AJaegeryeah, me summoned fifieldt ;)14:16
* fifieldt tries to catch up with scrollback14:16
nickchaseok, so that answers my next question: is this for initial DOCS contributions or for their first contribution period.14:16
AJaegernickchase, first contribution to openstack overall14:16
annegentleeveryone, all projects14:16
nickchaseOK, so what I was hoping for was something doc-specific.14:17
annegentlenickchase: I'll fight you to keep it "just like code"14:17
annegentle:)14:17
annegentlenickchase: we really don't want to set up "other" or docs ghetto14:17
Sam-I-Amannegentle: just a heads up, the bus internet is flaky :/14:17
annegentlenickchase: I feel so strongly about it that I can hardly type enough :)14:17
nickchaseWell, then I'll go back to my first thought: maybe we need an email that "mentors" can send to first time contributors.14:18
nickchaseWhich is what I was thinking in the first place.14:18
annegentlenickchase: I really like the mentoring idea14:18
annegentlenickchase: it's more personal than a bot14:18
fifieldtbtw, if you want a custom "Welcome, new Contributor" just for docs, we can probably do that14:18
nickchaseexactly14:18
annegentlefifieldt: I'd block it, honestly. I feel very strongly that as we go to team's self service we need to not set apart docs from any other type of contribution.14:19
fifieldtworks for me14:19
Sam-I-Amdo we want to reach out to people, or tell them to reach out to us if they want to contribute more?14:19
AJaegerI'm with annegentle14:19
annegentleteams are going to get less and less support from us in the way of reviews anyway14:19
openstackgerritSayali Lunkad proposed openstack/training-guides: Modifies osbash files to use osbash ssh keys  https://review.openstack.org/15866814:19
annegentlebut we do have to train reviewers of docs specifically14:19
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annegentleso I do think we should noodle on what a doc mentoring pairing would be like14:20
annegentleI think the specialty teams are one way this is happening already, people are meeting each other due to common knowledge areas14:20
Sam-I-Amonboarding for both contributions and reviews makes sense14:20
AJaegerthere'Re some people that need mentoring - and some just grab it easily ;)14:20
annegentlesome of the discussion does have to lead to our own agreement on what we review -- content, conventions, technical accuracy14:21
AJaegerbut even the later ones have questions...14:21
annegentleagreed AJaeger14:21
nickchaseagreed14:21
annegentleI also strongly feel that anything that leads to another doc bug being filed is broken.14:21
annegentlewe have way too many doc bugs and no clear assignees14:22
nickchasedisagreed :)14:22
annegentlenickchase: I know :)14:22
annegentleand prioritizing cleanup over content is also problematic for our end goal of providing accurate docs14:22
nickchaseI'll go back to my original assertion:  if people with the skills for the hard stuff could leave the "monkey work" to someone else there would be fewer of the hard bugs you're worried about.14:22
nickchaseagreed.14:23
annegentlewhat I see in the API docs is that the patch needs to be very clean because NO ONE will clean it up, two case in points that came up this week are the Firewall aaS and VPN aaS docs.14:23
annegentlelast updated in 2013, warned since last August they were going away, just yesterday noticed that they were gone.14:23
fifieldtI think WADL is quite a different beast to other docs14:23
annegentlefifieldt: true that :)14:23
Sam-I-Amagreed on that14:23
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nickchaseWe NEVER have a surfeit of low-hanging-fruit.14:24
annegentleso nickchase I am interested in identifying ways to clean up14:24
fifieldtI believe most of what we're talking about here is not api site stuff14:24
AJaegerfifieldt, it's the extreme end but shows the problem14:24
Sam-I-Ami suspect un-encumbered rst with an easier too chain will reduce some of the overhead for any kind of patch, even fix-ups14:24
annegentleand, with the mentoring idea, we WILL need more low hanging fruit14:24
nickchaseyes.14:24
openstackgerritMerged openstack/api-site: Fix a explain of "Create subnet" Remove following sentence.  https://review.openstack.org/15816014:24
AJaegeryeah, setting up maven and getting docbook right is not that trivial14:24
Sam-I-Amquestion is... does non-impactful edits need bugs?14:25
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AJaegerSam-I-Am, clear no from my perspective14:25
tarothfrom my perspective: no14:25
fifieldtat the moment we track quite a lot of these sorts of things with generic bugs14:25
fifieldtlike one per book14:25
Sam-I-Amyeah, or a bp/spec14:25
AJaegerSam-I-Am, I mean: IF you notice something, no need to open a bug.14:25
fifieldteg https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/121750314:26
openstackLaunchpad bug 1217503 in openstack-manuals "Apply document markup conventions to source XML files" [Wishlist,In progress]14:26
annegentleis there a way to have low hanging fruit without bugs?14:26
AJaegerAnother problem is if you know something is wrong and cannot fix it directly - how to record that?14:26
annegentlethe bug thing makes me worried14:26
nickchaseOK, hang on, I have a very basic question:14:26
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AJaegerannegentle, we can always track it elsewhere - or as part of a single bug.14:26
Sam-I-Amannegentle: maybe an ongoing low-hanging-fruit bug that keeps a list of particular places that need attention?14:27
nickchaseCall me crazy -- and I'm not suggesting that tracking as a single bug is a Bad Thing -- but why (aside from statistics) are more bugs so terrible?14:27
Sam-I-Am"first time contributor bug" heh14:27
annegentlenickchase: for a few reasons14:27
annegentle1) projects will need to track their own doc bugs in the big tent14:27
fifieldtwill they?14:28
fifieldt:)14:28
annegentle2) bugs for "shared" project docs are already too high with over 50014:28
annegentle3) more bugs means less trust of docs14:28
annegentlefifieldt: it remains to be seen :)14:28
fifieldt3 is clearly moot - there are already more bugs in docs than neutron :)14:28
Sam-I-Ammost of our bugs are these docimpacts people throw over the fence14:29
fifieldtso since #1 is still debatable, that leaves #214:29
annegentleha14:29
Sam-I-Amwhat we need is more of those people contributing14:29
fifieldtand #2 can be combated by making a separate launchpad project or (laugh here) a special category on storyboard14:29
nickchaseSam-I-Am: agreed14:29
annegentleSam-I-Am: right and the current mailing list discussion of rolling releases doesn't give me hope many will contribute :)14:29
Sam-I-Amwe're not here to understand the intricacies of all projects. we're here to make the docs usable.14:29
annegentleSam-I-Am: we can also debate "which docs" usable14:29
annegentleSam-I-Am: if we narrow the scope to only what we have now, what might change about our reviews?14:30
* nickchase is feeling bad because after that whole "template" discussion we had in Atlanta he never got it done.14:30
annegentlenickchase: no worries, someone else did it right?14:30
Sam-I-Amnickchase: we all have our dumpster fires14:30
annegentleso another idea14:30
annegentlefor each deliverable, have smaller review teams14:30
nickchaseannegentle:  not that I know of14:30
annegentleget rid of the central docs-core and have cores on individual books. Go.14:31
nickchasehow does that help, though?14:31
annegentlebetter yet. -- only track bugs against one deliverable14:31
fifieldtdoes anyone feel like we're starting to mix issues here? "The Way Forward" Big thinking, with a current issue on review narkyness :)14:31
AJaegerannegentle, independed of this: let's cleanup docs-core of people that didn't review anything in the last 6 months. We have a few of these AFAIR14:31
annegentlethen we'll know which ones are the most "in trouble"14:31
Sam-I-Amfifieldt: timecube :)14:32
annegentleAJaeger: sure, and there are lots of people wanting to be core, but it might be easier for them to become core on a single book at a time14:32
nickchasefifieldt:  I don't think so14:32
KLevensteinannegentle: books core = more formal version of the "specialty team"?14:32
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fifieldtit's not a terrible idea14:32
annegentleKLevenstein: right. The Security Guide team does this already, where only security team members can actually publish that book.14:32
AJaegerannegentle, we can only have cores per repository.14:32
annegentleit's a handshake right now, as in, AJaeger and I "know" not to publish their book.14:33
annegentleThere's also a balancing act between "protection of publish rights" and "speed of change"14:33
AJaegerI'm not yet completely convinced that all the special teams do work great...14:33
AJaegerEach needs a driving force behind it14:33
nickchaseok, so that I feel is off track.14:33
nickchase:)14:33
annegentleI think that it's part of what nickchase was struggling with though.14:33
annegentlenickchase: you can't override a core's decision14:34
annegentleor is it the "anyone's -1 blocking"?14:34
Sam-I-Ami think each subteam will have their qualms for their specific document14:34
Sam-I-Amtheres general review guidelines, sure14:34
nickchaseIt's the "anyone's -1 blocking".14:34
annegentlemany of the suggestions revolve around "don't block, fix"14:34
annegentleand the only difficuly I had with one of the "fix" suggestions was log a bug.14:35
nickchasethat's true.14:35
annegentleI guess I can relax a bit and know we'll always have more bugs than the team.14:35
AJaegerannegentle, I find it important that we have a shared team - overlapping - so that knowledge gets exchanged. Not every special team should reinvent their own conventions.14:35
Sam-I-Amsometimes its easier just to slurp someone's patch and fix it rather than go through a bunch of -1s, especially for new contributors.14:35
annegentleAJaeger: very true, that.14:35
fifieldtAJaeger, agreed14:35
fifieldtand we'll also still have our beloved common directory ;)14:35
nickchaseAJaeger: agreed14:35
annegentle(know we, docs, will have more bugs than individual project teams)14:35
Sam-I-Amquestion is... are the issues bad enough to keep it from being published.14:36
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AJaegerand anybody can take the patch and fix it. So, if I do a -1 and don't have time to fix it, nickchase can fix the patch up properly.14:36
nickchaseIf it's marked so I can FIND it, sure.14:36
Sam-I-Ammight be possible to partial-bug something that needs fixups rather than generating a new bug14:36
Sam-I-Amthen closes-bug once its fixed14:36
fifieldtone issue with fixing a patch for a newcomer is ensuring education about what they should do if they subsequently need to update it14:36
fifieldtotherwise it can be confusing as hell14:36
AJaegerAre we in a hurry to publish patches?14:36
fifieldtso probably worth getting some generic text in order for that14:36
fifieldtto explain what we've done and why14:36
fifieldtand how to update their own repo14:36
nickchaseOK, so I think fifieldt hits on where we started: communication.14:36
AJaegerfifieldt, exactly: So, what I do sometimes: Do a proper review and then mark it as WIP with a note "Let me fix this for you...."14:37
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sldfifieldt: are you talking about cherrypicking, or simply pulling in updates to re-edit files?14:37
nickchaseRight.  If you tell someone to update their patch, in general, unless they're really experienced, you will get a blank stare.14:37
fifieldtsld: review -d 89789078907; git commit -a; git review14:37
sldah14:37
AJaegerI think fifieldt is saying that we should tell them how to fix their patch, we should help them doing the second iteration of it14:37
nickchase+114:38
fifieldtno14:38
fifieldtwhat I'm saying is if we are fixing their patch14:38
fifieldtwe need to explain the process we're taking14:38
AJaegerAh...14:38
nickchase+1 on that too. :)14:38
sldlol14:38
Sam-I-Amexplaining is +++14:38
nickchaseI think either way it's better than what we have now.14:38
annegentle#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo#How_to_amend_a_review-in-progress14:38
fifieldtjust looking for some text that says "hey, there's this stupid thing. I'm going to fix it for you quickly so you don't have to waste your time. This is going to break your local repo, so do this: btw this is what I did"14:39
annegentleI've started pasting that into the review when it needs patching14:39
sldfifieldt: awesome idea14:39
annegentleI'll add to it what to do when someone else patches your patch14:39
AJaegernickchase, I think you're only seeing a few bad examples, there's a lot of good work already happening14:39
AJaegerand especially fifieldt'S communication is great14:39
fifieldthttps://etherpad.openstack.org/p/docs-fixed-it-for-you <-- anyone care to edit14:39
nickchaseAJaeger: I'm glad, but if people don't know that we have a problem.14:40
nickchaseSo ok, let me recap for a moment, if that's OK...14:40
nickchaseWe agree that we need to do something, and communication seems to be the best answer.  We are crafting a "standard" message that we can give to newbies when we fix their stuff https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/docs-fixed-it-for-you with the idea that ...14:41
annegentlethe idea that we communicate "this is how we work, welcome!"14:41
nickchaseit will get things in quickly, not frustrate people, and not tick them off or make them feel stepped on, while still educating them on what it is that they can do better next time.14:41
annegentleyes, education is key14:42
AJaegerso, when do we fix and when do we just comment?14:42
Sam-I-Amone of the things we discussed was how docs makes things look pretty after the actual meat is done. so editing other people's patches should be weird.14:42
nickchaseI think that's a judgement call on the revieiwer.14:42
AJaegerI think a rule of thumb would be if it'S less than 3 edits, fix yourself, if it's more than 10 - let the author do it...14:42
Sam-I-Amsomeone does the hard work of configuring X thing, and we make it pretty.14:42
nickchaseAnd there's definite value in that.14:43
annegentleSam-I-Am: WE DO NOT MAKE IT PRETTY NEVER SAY THAT IN MY PRESENSE AGAIN14:43
annegentledead serious14:43
nickchaseAre you objecting to ...14:43
AJaegerSam-I-Am, yes, we can do this as well - but that's something we should *arrange* and communicate before14:43
nickchasethe notion that we clean things up, or the word "pretty"?14:43
annegentlewe make things consistent and more readable, therefore more usable14:43
nickchase(also dead serious)14:43
nickchaseAh, so "pretty".14:43
Sam-I-Amnotion that we know our nitpicky conventions that keep everything presentable and sane14:44
annegentleit  might be a "girl" thing but that is the fast track to the docs ghetto.14:44
annegentlewe know how to make the contribution fit with the rest of the docs, which naturally we are more accustomed to and familiar with14:44
* Sam-I-Am transfer to phoneirc14:44
KLevensteinannegentle: fwiw agreed, "pretty" does can an implication of "looks nice, not much there"14:44
annegentleright.14:45
KLevenstein*can have an; valkyrie needs coffee14:45
nickchaseannegentle: maybe I'm the weird one, I just think "pretty" in the context of "pretty-print".  But that's probably just me.  Connotations acknowledged.14:45
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annegentleheh14:45
nickchaseOK, so let me go back for a moment...14:45
fifieldttext @ https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/docs-fixed-it-for-you is a little less informal now for y'all if desired14:45
nickchaseto "we make things consistent and more readable, therefore more usable" ...14:46
nickchaseAre you referring to conventions here?14:46
annegentlenickchase: yes14:46
annegentlenickchase: also better writing, less meandering is easier to read14:46
nickchaseSo you're saying there that WE handle the conventions.14:47
nickchaseWhich is different from making the author handle the conventions.14:47
nickchaseAlso that we fix the "writing"14:47
nickchasewhich is useful when we are trying to get information out of engineer brains.14:47
nickchaseWhich brings me back to...14:47
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Sam-I-Amin other words, if someone docs a new swift feature, no one here really know the internals of swift, but we can make it conform and presentable like the other docs14:47
annegentlenickchase: sometimes. it's a judgement call, which is why I'd like us to train more people on good judgement.14:47
nickchasemy original assertion: that we should let them focus on the stuff that's only in their brains.14:48
Sam-I-Amwith rst i think well get a lot more "engineer" contribs14:48
nickchaseI agree, which is why it's REALLY important that...14:48
annegentleSam-I-Am: that's the hope, and swift already does all their docs in rst really14:48
nickchasewe use this opportunity to encourage those people and not drive them away.14:48
AJaegernickchase, we can do this in special cases - but not for each and every patch14:48
annegentlebut with RST we will still have markup conventions14:48
Sam-I-Amswift was a bad example14:49
Sam-I-Ami hope our rst isnt as cumbersome14:49
fifieldtbottom line: we want every review on every patch to be encouraging that patch submitted to become the #1 docs contributor14:49
Sam-I-Amrst is designed to be light14:49
fifieldts/submitted/submitter/14:49
sldfifieldt: i like that ideology / concept. :)14:50
nickchasefifieldt: it sounds sappy, but, well, yeah.14:50
sldthe more someone is encouraged, the more they contribute.14:50
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Sam-I-Amthe more they dont have to waste time on nits14:50
nickchaseI have a suggestion:14:50
berendtwhat about an easy and light step-by-step guide "how to commit to openstack documentation in 10 minutes"? At the moment we link to https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo on http://docs.openstack.org/. This is a complex and long document and as a first time contributor I do not know if i have to read the whole document, what are the relevant parts, and so on.14:50
annegentleberendt: it is long, isn't it?14:50
fifieldthttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/HowTo/FirstTimers14:51
fifieldtsomething like that?14:51
sldyeah14:51
nickchaseUnfortunately, there are a LOT of steps that are actually necessary.14:51
nickchasebut14:51
Sam-I-Amberendt: our conventions are a mile long too14:51
AJaegerThere's also http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/14:51
fifieldtrandom idea:14:51
fifieldthmm14:51
fifieldtmaybe not14:51
AJaegernot doc specific - but the new generic information for OpenStack contribution14:51
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nickchaseOK, I have a potential compromise:14:52
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nickchaseWe want people to not be frustrated or bogged down, but we don't want a preponderance of new bugs.  One way to do that would be ...14:52
berendtI think there should be a light document for a first time contributor making it really easy to push a first commit. I do not think that any new contributor reads the linked document before the first commit.14:53
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nickchaseIf we institute a policy that if you see something simple, it's OK to just fix it with the text in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/docs-fixed-it-for-you . If it's more complicated....14:53
AJaegerDuring reviews, I often link to special sections of the conventions14:53
sldAJaeger: +1 - it's been immensely helpful, too. :)14:54
annegentleAJaeger: me too14:54
annegentlenickchase: yep, I think that's the way.14:54
nickchasethen we tell the author that this is what it needs, but if they are willing to file a new bug and paste the URL in the comments, then we can close this one.  (I'm assuming these are non-impactful) bugs.  The hassle of filing a new bug...14:54
AJaegerand I even got this week a comment: I would have loved to know about the markup conventions before I did my first patch..14:54
annegentleAJaeger: yeah! from Robin I think?14:55
nickchasewill discourage most people and encourage them to do the right thing and just do the fix, but in extreme cases we will have a smaller number of new bugs that a first-timer can patch.14:55
annegentlegreat summary14:55
nickchaseWould that be OK?14:55
KLevensteinso, in fact—I wrote a lightweight “how to contribute to openstack” doc for my team at rackspace to try and simplify what’s at the main page. would be happy to share it.14:55
AJaegerannegentle, don't remember who it was14:55
berendtKLevenstein: cool14:55
tarothKLevenstein: great14:55
annegentleKLevenstein: cool14:55
annegentlesorry we'd better get to the other topics!14:55
nickchaseKLevenstein: definitely14:56
KLevensteinI don’t know how much simpler it actually is, but.14:56
nickchaseOK, so do we agree on this, then?14:56
AJaegerKLevenstein, let's share and look14:56
annegentleYes.14:56
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Update CLI reference for python-openstackclient 1.0.2  https://review.openstack.org/15945214:56
nickchaseEXCELLENT.14:56
annegentle#agreed institute a policy that if you see something simple, it's OK to just fix it with the text in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/docs-fixed-it-for-you14:56
Sam-I-Amrst toolchain should make it lighter14:56
annegentleKLevenstein: do you want an action item to share that?14:57
KLevensteinannegentle: sure14:57
annegentle#action KLevenstein to share a lightweight “how to contribute to openstack” doc14:57
annegentleOkay14:57
annegentlenot sure I need another agreed statement on the more complex policies?14:58
annegentleSomething like14:58
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Update CLI reference for python-cinderclient 1.1.1  https://review.openstack.org/15943514:58
annegentle#agreed for balancing a contributor's frustration level with publishing ease, please use good judgement and seek out guidance14:58
annegentleOkay better get to User Guides new specialty team14:58
nickchaseannegentle:  sorry to be nitpicky, but I don't see the part about enabling a person to get a bug closed by filing a new one if they're motivated to do that.14:59
annegentle#topic User Guides new specialty team14:59
nickchaseIf that's implicit, fine.14:59
annegentlenickchase: that was complex to me :)14:59
annegentlenickchase: and a judgement call14:59
nickchaseok, let's move on.  I'll post a proposed statement to the list.14:59
annegentleok thanks15:00
annegentletaroth: thanks for joining us, sorry we didn't get to the User Guide for long15:00
tarothannegentle: np15:00
annegentletaroth: and I do owe you an email back on your excellent questions about the user guide and admin guide15:00
annegentlealso15:00
annegentle#topic Installation Guides split for Kilo15:00
annegentlewe no longer publish install guides to /trunk/15:00
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annegentleand it is open to kilo now, right Sam-I-Am?15:01
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annegentleheh no one else has to use this meeting room bwah hah ha15:01
AJaegerannegentle, did you remove /trunk/install-guides and /trunk/training-guides as well?15:01
nickchase:)15:01
AJaegerwe should announce that it's open15:01
sldAJaeger: remove = .htaccess or actual filesystem file removal .. or both?15:02
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slderr .htaccess redirects15:02
annegentleAJaeger: oh I can do that today since I'm home15:02
AJaegersld, rm -rf docs.openstack.org/trunk/{install-guide,training-guides} - and add proper redirects15:02
sldah15:02
fifieldtthe magical password that only exists on Anne's PC at home :D15:02
annegentlefifieldt: actually it's about the network15:02
AJaegerfifieldt, the one she wanted to share? ;)15:02
fifieldtoh, right, I see :)15:02
fifieldtI'm just having vague recollections15:03
annegentlefifieldt: I sorted the other by phoning infra :)15:03
fifieldtof amusement15:03
fifieldtWho you gonna call :)15:03
annegentleghostbusters!15:03
sldannegentle: that's my line! lol15:03
AJaegersld, that was the password ;)15:03
taroth:)15:03
annegentleOkay, I did want to bring up https://review.openstack.org/#/c/157303/ since there's a concern this merged too fast15:03
annegentleit wasn't tested, and doesn't tell the user to change the API version15:04
annegentleit's fairly safe since it's not published, though, but, this is where "it's a judgement call" comes in -- did anyone log a bug about it?15:04
annegentleSam-I-Am: you noticed it, can you log a bug for investigation?15:04
fifieldtis trunk still broken for cinderclient, Sam-I-Am?15:05
annegentlehe's on his phone so might have difficulty, I'll follow up and let us end the meeting!15:05
nickchasethanks everyone!15:05
AJaegercan we talk about the driver docs spec?15:05
AJaegerhttps://review.openstack.org/#/c/133372/15:05
annegentleThe doc tools update is on the mailing list too, so that's all for now15:05
annegentleAJaeger: oh yes. What are your thoughts now?15:05
* AJaeger likes to hand over the spec to somebody else...15:06
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Update CLI reference for python-ceilometerclient 1.0.13  https://review.openstack.org/15943415:06
AJaegerfifieldt raised a point during review that we might have good documentation that won't be that easy to move to vendor docs.15:06
annegentleI am frankly surprised at how little vendor doc there is on _their_ sites15:06
annegentleit's like we made TOO good a docs site. ha.15:07
AJaegerI was thinking whether we should make "maintenance" of the doc a requirement15:07
berendtAJaeger: +115:07
annegentleSo I'm feeling a little like our proposed solution wouldn't work anyway, to link to vendor sites.15:07
AJaegerSo, either they do a minimal spec that needs no maintenance15:07
annegentle#topic Driver docs spec15:07
AJaegerOr if they want something more flashed on our side, we need one contact person and an update for each release...15:07
AJaegerand if nothing happens and the content is outdated, we revert it to the minimal doc15:08
annegentleI feel like we already have a carrot, a great docs site that many people just use as "the place" to find out how to use a driver.15:08
berendtwe should also note that we will remove content if the contact person is not responsive and if there is no update after a release15:08
annegentleso the stick is removing the content, right?15:08
AJaegerannegentle, yep15:08
annegentleAJaeger: ok so is the spec saying that currently? I don't recall15:09
AJaegerNo, it'S not - the spec currently says we will have minimal doc for everything.15:09
annegentleAJaeger: I think the spec has been very valuable to find out the facts.15:09
fifieldt+115:09
annegentleAJaeger: and has done its job of finding a good solution.15:09
AJaegerBut seeing the recent feedback, I'm considering changing it.15:09
annegentleAJaeger: thanks so much for doing the work of discovery15:09
annegentleAJaeger: yes, I agree15:09
AJaegerAnd the stick is one approach ;)15:09
annegentleI think we found out important aspects that gave us both carrot and stick :)15:09
AJaegerIf anybody has a better one, please tell.15:09
fifieldtsounds like AJaeger has things under control as usual :)15:10
annegentlewhat sucks, honeslty, is that even teh stick creates work15:10
annegentleit's maddening15:10
AJaegerfifieldt, this has been going on for far too long for me ;(15:10
fifieldtabsolutely15:10
annegentleAJaeger: yeah let's get resolution15:10
AJaegerWhat about the following plan:15:10
fifieldtsorry for the lengthy reply times, but I think this is quite important to do right15:10
AJaegeraction for me to update the spec15:11
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AJaegerWe review quickly and annegentle makes a last call in her weekly doc status mail15:11
annegentlesounds good15:11
AJaegerand next wednesday it gets approved15:11
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fifieldtworks for me15:11
annegentle#action AJaeger to update the docs driver spec at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/133372/15:12
* Sam-I-Am has internet again15:12
annegentle#action annegentle to make a call for final review in the weekly docs status update post15:12
AJaegerWElcome back, Sam-I-Am !15:12
annegentleSam-I-Am: great! Was just asking if you had logged a doc bug for the cinder client testing for the install guide to close that loop.15:12
annegentle#action annegentle to update .htaccess and then delete /trunk/install and /trunk/training-guides15:13
annegentleI think that's it15:13
annegentlethanks all for joining and going over, sorry about that.15:13
Sam-I-Amannegentle: no, i havent..15:13
AJaegerannegentle, also check the index pages for any mention fo these15:13
Sam-I-Amannegentle: i think we'll be trying the openstack client for kilo... it might work better :)15:13
annegentleAJaeger: got it15:13
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AJaegerthanks, annegentle !15:14
annegentle#endmeeting15:14
openstackMeeting ended Thu Feb 26 15:14:18 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:14
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-02-26-14.03.html15:14
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-02-26-14.03.txt15:14
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/docteam/2015/docteam.2015-02-26-14.03.log.html15:14
annegentleyay meetbot15:14
annegentlenow back to your regularly scheduled openstack-doc programming15:14
annegentleI have an awful headache and will be away from glowing things today, sorry.15:14
AJaeger;)15:14
KLevensteinfeel better!15:15
AJaegerAnd I was jsut hoping you would fix the theme to make Sam-I-Am happy ;)15:15
tarothannegentle: get better soon :)15:15
AJaegerGet well, annegentle !15:15
Sam-I-Amannegentle: feel better :)15:16
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openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update huawei driver configuration  https://review.openstack.org/15076115:26
openstackgerritChristian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Automatically generated cinder_backups_swift table  https://review.openstack.org/15917015:30
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openstackgerritOlena Logvinova proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Adds swift_store_cacert option to config reference  https://review.openstack.org/15953616:51
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openstackgerritNathaniel Dillon proposed openstack/security-doc: Adding clarification to Networking's security guide references.  https://review.openstack.org/15716217:12
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openstackgerritAndreas Jaeger proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Use git.openstack.org  https://review.openstack.org/15955918:09
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AJaegerannegentle: ping18:22
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openstackgerritAndreas Jaeger proposed openstack/docs-specs: Create guidelines for vendor drivers  https://review.openstack.org/13337218:31
AJaegerfifieldt: could you review the spec again, please?18:31
openstackgerritAndreas Jaeger proposed openstack/docs-specs: Create guidelines for vendor driver documentation  https://review.openstack.org/13337218:33
openstackgerritAndreas Jaeger proposed openstack/docs-specs: Create guidelines for vendor driver documentation  https://review.openstack.org/13337218:36
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openstackgerritAJAY KALAMBUR proposed openstack/training-guides: Fix interface bringup command to work for Ubuntu 14.04 This bug changes service networking restart command to ifup <interface> since service networking restart does not work anymore on Ubuntu 14.04  https://review.openstack.org/15957218:45
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openstackgerritAndreas Jaeger proposed openstack/docs-specs: Create guidelines for vendor driver documentation  https://review.openstack.org/13337218:50
openstackgerritAJAY KALAMBUR proposed openstack/training-guides: Fix interface bringup command to work for Ubuntu 14.04 This bug changes service networking restart command to ifup <interface> since service networking restart does not work anymore on Ubuntu 14.04  https://review.openstack.org/15957218:58
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openstackgerritAnne Gentle proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Adds and corrects redirects for released location of training-guides  https://review.openstack.org/15959520:02
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openstackgerritSayali Lunkad proposed openstack/training-guides: Changes pre-config files to use new ssh keys  https://review.openstack.org/15866720:54
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openstackgerritDanny Wilson proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update of Pure Storage Cinder document for Kilo  https://review.openstack.org/15963622:32
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openstackgerritAlexandra Settle proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Removal of passive voice from chap 4, arch guide  https://review.openstack.org/15964823:00
openstackgerritAlexandra Settle proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Removal of passive voice from chap 4, arch guide  https://review.openstack.org/15966023:16
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openstackgerritShail Bhargava proposed openstack/security-doc: MySQL SSL transport config example  https://review.openstack.org/15966823:40
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openstackgerritShail Bhargava proposed openstack/security-doc: MySQL SSL transport config example  https://review.openstack.org/15966823:49
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