Monday, 2015-11-02

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openstackgerritDiane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: Separate out status="200 203" for Identity API  https://review.openstack.org/24046200:12
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openstackgerritJaiveek Shah proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Networking Guide - Provider Network image misleading  https://review.openstack.org/24073600:55
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openstackgerritKATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/training-guides: Create translation tools  https://review.openstack.org/24073902:09
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openstackgerritKATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/training-guides: Create translation tools  https://review.openstack.org/24073904:58
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openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Imported Translations from Zanata  https://review.openstack.org/24076606:33
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Imported Translations from Zanata  https://review.openstack.org/24076607:09
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openstackgerritKATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Link to the docs specs section  https://review.openstack.org/24077307:15
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openstackgerritKATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Link to the docs tools section  https://review.openstack.org/24077807:38
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Remove Fedora from install guides  https://review.openstack.org/24071309:43
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openstackgerritShuquan Huang proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Disable port creation when invalid MAC address is provided  https://review.openstack.org/24081510:17
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Change service name to the official service name  https://review.openstack.org/24064811:32
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openstackgerritOlga Gusarenko proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Rewrite backporting description  https://review.openstack.org/24065711:36
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Rewrite backporting description  https://review.openstack.org/24065712:06
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Link to the docs specs section  https://review.openstack.org/24077312:38
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openstackgerritThomas Goirand proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: openstack-pkg-tools using openstackclient  https://review.openstack.org/23420312:56
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Fix guilabel markup example  https://review.openstack.org/24068313:47
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openstackgerritIevgeniia Zadorozhna proposed openstack/security-doc: Added a Security Guide for the Shared File Systems service  https://review.openstack.org/23154614:02
openstackgerritKATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Link to the docs tools section  https://review.openstack.org/24077814:04
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] add the link to doc bugs triaging  https://review.openstack.org/24068414:10
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openstackgerritKATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Link to the docs tools section  https://review.openstack.org/24077814:17
openstackgerritKATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Link to the docs tools section  https://review.openstack.org/24077814:19
openstackgerritMatthew Kassawara proposed openstack/docs-specs: Upgrades  https://review.openstack.org/24087914:32
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: [contributor] Link to the docs tools section  https://review.openstack.org/24077814:52
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uberjayhey docs people -- would it be possible to get a (hopefully final? :) review of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/239548/15:24
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Sam-I-Amuberjay: looks fine to me15:33
uberjayGreat, thank you so much. Just trying to wrap this up!15:34
Sam-I-Ami know that feeling15:34
Sam-I-Amjust make sure the docs stay updated :)15:34
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uberjayyes, definitely :)15:35
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sc68calSam-I-Am: I just browsed your spec for upgrades - I'm working on the Neutron side to make sure that neutron is upgradable15:55
sc68calSam-I-Am: we should collaborate :)15:55
Sam-I-Amsc68cal: woot!15:55
Sam-I-Amand yeah15:55
Sam-I-Amhow was tokyo?15:56
Sam-I-Amdid i miss anything... besides not losing another organ?15:56
sc68calSam-I-Am: I didn't go to docs track, so not sure on that side. Neutron has a lot going on (as usual)15:57
Sam-I-Ami saw some ovn stuff15:57
Sam-I-Amwere the neutron sessions feisty?15:57
sc68calalways are :)15:57
Sam-I-Amsome of the ones i watched had the usual peppering of people that just dont get it15:58
Sam-I-Ambut yeah upgrades... does my spec many any sense?15:58
sc68calSam-I-Am: yeah I think less rigid step-by-step sounds good - hopefully we can put in more context as to "why am I doing these steps"15:59
Sam-I-Amyeah15:59
sc68calSam-I-Am: I think though Neutron has some huge upgrade stuff so it'd be good to have either an appendix with all the tech nitty gritty, or an in depth neutron upgrade guide15:59
Sam-I-Ami'd like to cover the majority of stuff for each service in the main content, then if there's anything particularly gross... appendix, or ref the networking guide16:00
sc68calSam-I-Am: but I think same style as the networking guide - explain the concepts, nice diagrams, and also the in depth details16:00
sc68calSam-I-Am: cool, yeah that sounds good to me, I was going to put in "networking guide needs an upgrade section" as my comment for your spec, but I was thinking as a joke, upon review actually no maybe it does16:01
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Sam-I-Ami'd really like to see The One Guide that covers everything admin/oper organized by service... concepts, basic install, advanced stuff, upgrades, etc.16:01
Sam-I-Amthis multi-guide thing makes it hard to locate content16:01
sc68calyeah. Multi guide was because the toolchain made it hard16:01
sc68calsphinx is a lot better I think.16:02
Sam-I-Amyep. just trying to convince people we need to move that way is hard.16:02
Sam-I-Ami suspect it might come after all of the other guides are converted to rst16:02
Sam-I-Amthe easiest split is user and not-user16:02
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Sam-I-Amturns out the install guide contains a lot of stuff not available anywhere else, but people dont necessarily want to use the install guide arch16:03
Sam-I-Amso... content like that needs a better home16:03
sc68calSam-I-Am: ack16:04
Sam-I-Amand then there's all the projects that need better docs16:04
Sam-I-Amlike neutron16:04
Sam-I-Amso much technical debt16:04
Sam-I-Amlike ovn16:05
Sam-I-Amthat needs to be released WITH documentation16:05
Sam-I-Amnot long before docs, so people get a lot of FUD again16:05
Sam-I-Amand the ovs docs are terribad16:06
Sam-I-Amsince ovn is more of an ovs project and neutron just provides the api, i wonder how that works16:06
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* sc68cal sighs16:15
sc68calrusselb isn't here.....16:15
sc68calhang on let me fix that16:16
Sam-I-Amwat?16:16
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sc68calSam-I-Am: russelb is involved with ovn heavily16:17
Sam-I-Amyeah, and a few other people16:17
Sam-I-Amif ovn is going to be A Thing, it needs docs love16:18
sc68calSam-I-Am: ++16:18
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openstackgerritAtsushi SAKAI proposed openstack/openstack-doc-tools: Add kuryr and dragonflow to neutron config ref  https://review.openstack.org/24092216:19
russellbsc68cal: hi16:19
Sam-I-Amrussellb: howdy16:19
sc68calrussellb: we were talking s@!% about you16:19
Sam-I-Amhaving a little chat about ovens and stuff16:19
Sam-I-Amand how they make things warm16:20
russellb40884016:20
russellbyes, we're up to a toaster oven16:20
russellbupgrade from the ez bake16:20
Sam-I-Amheh16:20
russellbi read the backlog quickly16:20
Sam-I-Amyep, trying to figure out the docs strategy for ovn16:20
russellbstrategy: we should have docs16:21
Sam-I-Amultimate goal - release it with usable docs16:21
russellbmore seriously, i totally agree16:21
Sam-I-Amso, not like the rest of neutron :)16:21
russellbfocus so far has been getting the core feature set implemented16:21
Sam-I-Amthe networking guide had significant impact in neutron adoption, imo16:21
russellbwe're really close to having everything in OVN itself, networking-ovn not far behind16:21
Sam-I-Ammostly due to reducing fud16:21
russellbso by end of year, we should have core features16:21
russellband with that, we can get more serious on docs16:21
russellbyeah, i'd *love* to integrate with the networking guide16:22
Sam-I-Amhow does neutron treat ovn... e.g., does it fit more like in-tree plugins/agents or third-party?16:22
sc68calit has a devstack plugin!!!!16:22
russellbunless OVN bombs, i expect OVN to become a next gen way neutron supports ovs16:23
russellbthat's my personal opinion16:23
russellband we have to prove that it's actually good/better16:23
russellbbefore that's a more generally accepted stance16:23
Sam-I-Amwell, the theory makes sense16:24
* sc68cal wishes he was better at C++16:24
russellbbut in any case, i think it's fair to assume that we should document it along side reference impl stuff16:24
russellbbecause it's sort of an evolution of that16:24
russellbsc68cal: it's just C, way easier than C++ crap :)16:24
Sam-I-Amthe ovs docs are pretty terrible, so it seems like openstack might need to take on documenting how to make ovn work similar to the other network guide scenarios16:24
Sam-I-Amthe line is a little blurry in my head16:25
sc68calrussellb: oh, why did I think it was c++ - sheesh16:25
russellbwhen you say terrible16:25
russellbdo you mean it lacks a higher level guide to tie things together?16:25
russellbthey have pretty comprehensive man pages16:25
Sam-I-Amyeah, higher level16:25
* russellb nods16:25
Sam-I-Amhttp://openvswitch.org/support/dist-docs-2.4/16:25
Sam-I-Amthat is... blah16:25
russellbtough to write the higher level docs because ovs itself isn't high level16:26
russellbit's a low level component16:26
russellbthat can be used to do all kinds of stuff16:26
Sam-I-Amtrue, which is why i'm thinking neutron needs to take on the specific use case for ovn16:26
russellbyes16:26
Sam-I-Amand if people want to dive into ovs goop, they can16:26
russellbhave you seen what we have so far?16:26
Sam-I-Amfor docs?16:26
russellbyeah16:27
russellbit's not much, but http://docs.openstack.org/developer/networking-ovn/16:27
russellbtells you how to stand it up with devstack16:27
diazjf1hello everyone, I am new to docs and am trying to add http://docs.openstack.org/developer/castellan but I keep getting 404 even with this patch: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/238252/16:27
russellbOVN itself has pretty detailed docs on the architecture ... not really anything from the admin side yet http://openvswitch.org/support/dist-docs/ovn-architecture.7.html16:28
russellbi've also been writing this https://github.com/openvswitch/ovs/blob/master/tutorial/OVN-Tutorial.md16:28
russellbso, we're trying...16:28
Sam-I-Amyeah - those three things combined :)16:29
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russellbwithin the next couple months we should have OVN's native L3 integrated with openstack, and then we're mostly on to more serious testing / documenting / scale work16:29
Sam-I-Amwhat happened with dvr - the only docs out there when it was released was how to run it in a single-node devstack :/16:29
russellbheh16:30
Sam-I-Amso there's already more info with ovn than dvr, we just need to figure out how to organize and present it16:30
russellbcool16:30
AJaegerdiazjf1: let me check...16:30
Sam-I-Amthe sooner we can get started, the better16:30
russellbovn's L3 is way simpler than DVR ...16:30
russellbIMO16:30
Sam-I-Amthat doesnt take much :)16:31
Sam-I-Ami had to reverse-engineer dvr to write the docs for it16:31
AJaegerdiazjf1: castellan is setup in project-config with "openstack-client-publish-jobs" template, so it gets published only once there is a release.16:31
AJaegerdiazjf1: let's discusss on #openstack-infra since this is a project-config discussion16:31
Sam-I-Amif ovn works as it says it will and useful docs exist at release, i think adoption would increase significantly16:32
russellbSam-I-Am: i've also been trying to blog about specific pieces ... yet another piece / place for docs, like http://blog.russellbryant.net/2015/10/22/openstack-security-groups-using-ovn-acls/16:32
diazjf1AJaeger, thanks, I'll get on infra16:32
redrobotdiazjf1 doc jobs were broken,  have since been fixed.  Castellan needs a new release for the docs to be published for the 1st time.16:32
russellbSam-I-Am: cool, well i'll try to keep it in the fore front of mind ... and would love any help if you're interested :)16:33
Sam-I-Amrussellb: cool. speaking of kernel stuff, we'd also need to know which kernels support this integration16:33
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Sam-I-Ami doubt it would be backported to 3.13 in ubuntu 14.04, for example16:33
russellbSam-I-Am: right, that's a moving target16:33
Sam-I-Ambut would it make it into the next lts?16:33
russellbcan't speak for Ubuntu16:33
russellbwe're backporting it for RHEL and its derivatives16:33
Sam-I-Am7?16:33
russellbyes16:34
diazjf1redrobot, gotcha thanks16:34
russellbSam-I-Am: it'll be in Linux 4.3, whatever distro kernels distros backport to, and the out-of-tree kernel module ovs ships will also have it available as a backport16:34
russellbtheir backport will support rhel 7 and ubuntu 14.0416:34
sc68calrussellb: did you end up doing nat on each compute node, a-la-nova-network  for ovn's l3?16:35
Sam-I-Amlooking at the devstack instructions, how is ovn working on 14.04?16:35
russellbsc68cal: NAT isn't done :)16:35
Sam-I-Amrussellb: sounds like nat was the next step after getting acls working in ovs16:35
russellbbecause they're doing it a new way integrated into ovs16:35
russellbyep16:35
Sam-I-Amso what works in devstack now?16:36
russellbbut yeah, that'll be the first way it's supported i think16:36
sc68calrussellb: ok I'm curious, going to have to read some code now16:36
russellbit uses neutron L3 agent if you run devstack right now16:36
russellba hacked up combo of stuff16:36
Sam-I-Amwhat about acls?16:36
russellbsecurity groups are implemented using OVN ACLs (like that blog post)16:36
russellbwhich uses ovs+conntrack under that16:36
russellbthe devstack plugin compiles/installs a kernel backport16:37
russellbloads custom build of ovs kernel module16:37
russellbit has to compile/install ovs and ovn from ovs git master anyway, so why not throw a custom kernel module in the mix :)16:37
russellbso we'll have to do that until the conntrack integration backport is more widely available via distro kernel backports16:38
Sam-I-Amwheeee16:39
Sam-I-Amthat all sounds like much fun16:39
russellblife of the bleeding edge16:39
Sam-I-Ami was curious how you were getting new versions of ovs16:39
russellbit was just ovs git master ... it's actually a custom branch right now16:39
russellbsince we need those backports16:39
russellbwhich haven't merged into ovs master yet16:39
russellbso we're more bleeding edge that ovs master at this moment16:39
russellbthan*16:40
Sam-I-Amcool16:40
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russellbsc68cal: we were talking about distributed conntrack state last week ... that's needed to do smarter distributed NAT without eating up so many IPs16:41
russellbwe'll get there16:41
Sam-I-Amthats one of dvr's problems16:42
russellbright16:42
sc68calrussellb: where can I read up on that - ovs-dev ?16:42
russellbsc68cal: there isn't much to read about NAT16:43
russellbnothing posted yet16:43
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sc68calrussellb: ah.... discussed at the conf16:43
russellbsome lower level initial RFC patches posted for native NAT in OVS tohugh16:43
russellbthat's on ovs-dev16:43
Sam-I-Amrussellb: when do you think we should get a spec up for docs (somewhere) to make sure we're in step with development?16:44
russellbi don't know, you tell me16:44
openstackgerritvenkatamahesh proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update install guide version with Liberty version  https://review.openstack.org/24071616:44
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russellbbasically when we think it's ready for super early adopter production / POC usage?16:45
russellbi think it's fine to play with now, but i don't think it's worth anyone trying it too seriously until we finish the OVN L3 integration16:45
russellbwith openstack i mean16:45
Sam-I-Amcan we start documenting any of the architecture now?16:47
russellbyes16:47
Sam-I-Amseems like you have some diagrams in various places16:47
russellbwe could16:47
Sam-I-Ambtw, on a side note, did you see the install guide for liberty arch changes to use linuxbridge?16:48
russellbhttp://openvswitch.org/support/dist-docs/ovn-architecture.7.html gets pretty detailed, and is kind of dev focused16:48
russellbmaybe something like that from the admin perspective16:48
russellbfocused on the components, where you run them, what each one does16:48
russellbhow you configure them16:48
Sam-I-Amexactly16:48
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russellbi'm happy to help review and such, it'll probably be a bit longer before i prioritize that myself16:49
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russellbi'd like to aim to have really good admin docs by mitaka release though16:49
Sam-I-AmYES16:49
russellbi think that timing seems right16:49
Sam-I-Amaiming to make neutron the best documented project :)16:50
russellb:)16:50
russellbis the network guide docbook?16:50
Sam-I-Amrst16:50
russellbcool16:50
russellbeven better.16:50
Sam-I-Amyeah, the install guide is rst now too16:50
Sam-I-Ameverything is going rst16:50
russellbseems like a good move, easier to contribute to16:50
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AJaegerrussellb: yeah and easier tooling ;)16:51
Sam-I-Amrussellb: all the good things16:51
russellb:)16:51
russellbi subscribed to getting networking guide gerrit notifications16:51
AJaegerso, no more excuses from anybody to not contribute ;)16:51
russellbhaven't actually done anything useful with those notifications yet :(16:51
AJaegerrussellb: great, thanks!16:51
russellbbut you know, good intentions16:52
Sam-I-Amrussellb: so it sounds like openstack will take on documenting deployment of OVN from a more admin/oper-centric perspective16:52
Sam-I-Amvs. openvswitch16:52
russellbSam-I-Am: yes, largely16:52
russellbi think we want some of that in ovs/ovn too ...16:52
russellbbut we can be even more specific with openstack16:52
Sam-I-Amin that case i'll put a spec together in the docs-specs repo for adding it to the networking guide16:52
russellbgreat!!16:53
Sam-I-Amwe can fill out the content as it becomes available... for now maybe starting with concepts16:53
russellbthanks for looking out for this, much appreciated16:53
russellband i do want to help16:53
Sam-I-Ami need to get my head wrapped around ovn16:53
russellbOK16:53
russellbSam-I-Am: I'd start with our summit talks16:53
russellbwe did one in vancouver, and another in tokyo16:53
Sam-I-Amyeah, i've watched those16:53
russellbok16:53
Sam-I-Amwhich is sort of what spawned this conversation16:53
russellbah :)16:54
russellbif you want to grasp it a lower level, try that tutorial i linked to16:54
Sam-I-Amsure. i think a lot of the questions will start when we try to develop a deployment scenario16:54
russellbthe neutron plugin is conceptually simple16:54
Sam-I-Ambasically the minimum architecture you'd use for a POC16:54
russellbjust creating corresponding entries in the OVN northbound database16:55
russellbSam-I-Am: cool ... i think we really need an answer for NAT first16:55
russellbunless we want to document using the L3 agent16:55
russellbnot sure that's worth it thought, since we want to replace that ASAP16:55
russellbi'd wait16:55
Sam-I-Amdo you plan to release it without built-in NAT functionality?16:55
russellbyes16:55
russellbwithout built-in NAT, i'd call it not ready16:56
Sam-I-Amso we probably need to document that way16:56
Sam-I-Amdocs should reflect what works16:56
Sam-I-Amkeep in mind that will also need a l3 agent to built-in nat migration process16:56
russellbneed a general ml2+ovs to OVN migration16:56
Sam-I-Amthat too16:57
russellbi'm not worried about OVN+L3 agent migration, we should have the built-in solution before that matters16:57
Sam-I-Amthe ultimate goal is making it so people see X and can deploy X... and early adopters can feel secure in the ability to implement features as they roll out without rebuilding from scratch16:58
Sam-I-Amalso making sure this is all thoroughly tested in realistic environments16:58
Sam-I-Am(i.e., not devstack)16:58
Sam-I-Amdvr had a little 'issue' when it was released16:59
Sam-I-Amand that stigma hasnt left16:59
russellbheh17:02
AJaegerbtw. here're some networking-guide reviews for you: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/240086/ and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/239370/17:02
Sam-I-Amyeah :/17:02
russellbwell this should be simpler ...17:02
russellbSam-I-Am: right, i get where you're coming from.  i just don't want to push the L3 agent approach too much17:03
russellbbecause i'm not interested in debugging it if it breaks17:03
russellbsince it's just temporary while we bootstrap the project17:03
Sam-I-Amrussellb: so would it make sense to document this initially as provider network only?17:03
russellbthat's an interesting idea17:03
russellbthat part should work fine17:03
russellbwithout the L3 agent17:03
Sam-I-Amthere's a lot of interest in provider networking and the current ovs solution is a bit wonky, hence the push for linuxbridge docs17:04
russellbthough i kind of wonder how much of the push for provider net only is *because* the existing solution is wonky17:04
Sam-I-Amthe install guide configures provider networking by default now and then augments it with L3 functionality, so we could follow a similar approach with ovn instead of documenting a hack17:04
russellbsure17:05
Sam-I-Amdoes dhcp work without the agent yet?17:05
russellbpatches are up for review for native DHCP17:05
russellbbut not merged yet17:05
russellbsoooooon17:05
Sam-I-Ami think people push for provider networking for two main reasons - 1) it provides similar functionality to nova-net 2) it eliminates the classic bottlenecks and complexity in neutron (the l3 agent)17:06
russellbi've got to run for now ... need to grab lunch before meeting17:06
Sam-I-Amrussellb: aight, i know where to find you :)17:07
russellbSam-I-Am: look forward to chatting more!17:07
russellbttyl17:07
openstackgerritvenkatamahesh proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Fix spelling typo  https://review.openstack.org/24066817:08
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openstackgerritVictor Howard proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Stubbing out arch design rst working directory  https://review.openstack.org/24037617:42
openstackgerritVictor Howard proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Stubbing out arch design rst working directory  https://review.openstack.org/24037617:45
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openstackgerritVictor Howard proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Stubbing out arch design rst working directory  https://review.openstack.org/24037618:25
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openstackgerritVictor Howard proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Stubbing out arch design rst working directory  https://review.openstack.org/24037618:34
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openstackgerritVictor Howard proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Stubbing out arch design rst working directory  https://review.openstack.org/24037618:43
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openstackgerritVictor Howard proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Stubbing out arch design rst working directory  https://review.openstack.org/24037619:13
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openstackgerritVictor Howard proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Fixing typo in glossary rst file  https://review.openstack.org/24097419:40
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Stubbing out arch design rst working directory  https://review.openstack.org/24037620:47
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Add documentation for Nimble-Cinder driver  https://review.openstack.org/23951221:19
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: [arch-design] Change modules to services  https://review.openstack.org/23977521:19
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Fix spelling typo  https://review.openstack.org/24066821:19
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Fix docs mailing list address  https://review.openstack.org/24066421:20
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Update the project release links with liberty version release links  https://review.openstack.org/24065321:20
openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstackdocstheme: Add padding css property for td and th  https://review.openstack.org/24064621:21
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openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/api-site: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24099221:23
openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/ha-guide: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24099321:23
openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/security-doc: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24099421:23
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/security-doc: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24099421:31
openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/security-doc: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24099621:34
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/security-doc: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24099621:43
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/openstack-manuals: Add migrating of legacy routers to L3 HA docs  https://review.openstack.org/23369522:23
openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/security-doc: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24101022:27
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/security-doc: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24101022:33
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/api-site: Updated from openstack-manuals  https://review.openstack.org/24099223:10
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