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| Eva-i | Hello. I'm looking at http://docs.openstack.org/contributor-guide/rst-conv/inline-markups.html manual. | 01:06 |
|---|---|---|
| Eva-i | And I still don't know how should I mark variable values "stable" and "unstable" in this expression: "You can set ``stability`` parameter either to stable or unstable". How should these variable values be marked? | 01:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/api-site: Update quotas extension https://review.openstack.org/245230 | 01:36 |
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| openstackgerrit | venkatamahesh proposed openstack/api-site: [Telemetry-v2-API] The types of few parameters are modified https://review.openstack.org/251009 | 01:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: Only restart Apache and memcache services https://review.openstack.org/249763 | 02:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Diane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: Add description of security group and rules https://review.openstack.org/249529 | 02:53 |
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| openstackgerrit | Diane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: Add DELETE method for os-server-password https://review.openstack.org/250252 | 03:23 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zhenyu Zheng proposed openstack/api-site: Fix incorrect references for os-flavor-extra-spec in Nova v2.1 API https://review.openstack.org/251178 | 03:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | KATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Convert compute db and rpc to RST https://review.openstack.org/251167 | 03:47 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zhenyu Zheng proposed openstack/api-site: Fix incorrect references for os-flavor-extra-spec in Nova v2.1 API https://review.openstack.org/251178 | 03:55 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zhenyu Zheng proposed openstack/api-site: Fix incorrect references for os-flavor-extra-spec in Nova v2.1 API https://review.openstack.org/251178 | 04:10 |
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| openstackgerrit | Akihiro Motoki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [user-guide] Fix markup for easier translation https://review.openstack.org/251635 | 04:44 |
| openstackgerrit | Akihiro Motoki proposed openstack/security-doc: Add bash to whitelist_externals in buildlang env https://review.openstack.org/251636 | 04:46 |
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| openstackgerrit | Diane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: (WIP) Spell-check and remove passive voice from api-site https://review.openstack.org/251467 | 06:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Gauvain Pocentek proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Convert telemetry sample-files.xml https://review.openstack.org/251509 | 06:09 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/security-doc: Add bash to whitelist_externals in buildlang env https://review.openstack.org/251636 | 06:12 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Remove unnecessary quotes https://review.openstack.org/251562 | 06:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Akihiro Motoki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [user-guide] Fix markup for easier translation https://review.openstack.org/251635 | 06:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Diane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: [WIP] Neutron QoS API Extension doc https://review.openstack.org/226834 | 06:25 |
| openstackgerrit | Zhenyu Zheng proposed openstack/api-site: Fix incorrect references for os-flavor-extra-spec in Nova v2.1 API https://review.openstack.org/251178 | 06:33 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/api-site: Add DELETE method for os-server-password https://review.openstack.org/250252 | 06:36 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/api-site: Update load balancer samples https://review.openstack.org/250135 | 06:37 |
| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/security-doc: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/251675 | 06:39 |
| openstackgerrit | Diane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: Add descriptions for snapshot parameters https://review.openstack.org/251065 | 06:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/251676 | 06:43 |
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| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/training-guides: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/251677 | 06:46 |
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| openstackgerrit | Zhenyu Zheng proposed openstack/api-site: Fix incorrect references for os-flavor-extra-spec in Nova v2.1 API https://review.openstack.org/251178 | 06:57 |
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| AJaeger | Eva-i: still around? | 07:05 |
| AJaeger | Use ``stable`` in the example | 07:05 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/security-doc: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/251675 | 07:07 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: [user-guide] Fix markup for easier translation https://review.openstack.org/251635 | 07:10 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/251676 | 07:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/training-guides: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/251677 | 07:14 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Convert telemetry sample-files.xml https://review.openstack.org/251509 | 07:18 |
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| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/api-site: Updated from openstack-manuals https://review.openstack.org/251684 | 07:28 |
| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/security-doc: Updated from openstack-manuals https://review.openstack.org/251685 | 07:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/security-doc: Updated from openstack-manuals https://review.openstack.org/251685 | 07:40 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/api-site: Updated from openstack-manuals https://review.openstack.org/251684 | 07:42 |
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| openstackgerrit | Christian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install] use user-name instead username for keystone_authtoken https://review.openstack.org/251240 | 07:57 |
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| openstackgerrit | Thomas Goirand proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install] Fix Ceilometer Debian install https://review.openstack.org/251707 | 08:45 |
| openstackgerrit | Thomas Goirand proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install] Glance + Ceilometer in Debian https://review.openstack.org/251708 | 08:47 |
| openstackgerrit | Thomas Goirand proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install] Ceilometer + Nova https://review.openstack.org/251709 | 08:48 |
| openstackgerrit | Thomas Goirand proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install] Ceilometer + Cinder https://review.openstack.org/251711 | 08:50 |
| openstackgerrit | Thomas Goirand proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install] Fix Debian and Ceilometer + Swift https://review.openstack.org/251712 | 08:52 |
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| openstackgerrit | venkatamahesh proposed openstack/api-site: [Telemetry-v2-API] Documented the response parameters of Alarms, Events https://review.openstack.org/251714 | 08:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | venkatamahesh proposed openstack/api-site: [Telemetry-v2-API] Documented the response parameters of Alarms, Events https://review.openstack.org/251714 | 09:00 |
| dguitarbite | berndbausch: hello. Evening. | 09:01 |
| berndbausch | dguitarbite: good morning :) | 09:01 |
| berndbausch | dguitarbite: what could I do to help porting the training labs to Liberty | 09:03 |
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| dguitarbite | berndbausch: I guess we should work on the same PR and do some pair programming (remote). | 09:04 |
| dguitarbite | remote-pair-programming if that makes any sense :D | 09:05 |
| berndbausch | dguitarbite: sounds interesting, never done it. | 09:05 |
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| berndbausch | two people modifying the same file at the same time | 09:06 |
| dguitarbite | Just made up the word :P but what I meant is that we work on the same PR and update different sections. | 09:06 |
| dguitarbite | do you have the links to the etherpad? | 09:06 |
| berndbausch | I am afraid I have nothing | 09:06 |
| dguitarbite | Follow this, check the liberty section | 09:08 |
| dguitarbite | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/training-labs | 09:08 |
| berndbausch | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_programming#Remote_pair_programming | 09:08 |
| berndbausch | There is nothing new under the sun | 09:08 |
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| dguitarbite | berndbausch: sounds awesome!. Can you check this etherpad out? https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/training-labs-liberty | 09:10 |
| dguitarbite | Lets track our work, tasks here so our work does not overlapp. | 09:10 |
| berndbausch | OK | 09:10 |
| berndbausch | not much done yet 8-) | 09:11 |
| dguitarbite | So, Im going to make a list of sections in install guides and link them with the relevant files in training-labs | 09:16 |
| dguitarbite | berndbausch: Then I could explain you the architecture a bit more in-depth :). | 09:18 |
| berndbausch | that would help | 09:18 |
| berndbausch | I can see where this goes :) | 09:21 |
| dguitarbite | berndbausch: Updated the etherpad. Tell me when you are back. | 09:22 |
| berndbausch | You mean I need to read all that =-O | 09:23 |
| berndbausch | OK not to worry. | 09:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Thomas Goirand proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install] Fix Ceilometer + Nova in Debian https://review.openstack.org/251709 | 09:23 |
| openstackgerrit | Thomas Goirand proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [install] Fix Ceilometer + Cinder in Debian https://review.openstack.org/251711 | 09:24 |
| berndbausch | dguitarbite: There is a lot of dependency, at least at the beginning. First environment, then identity, then glance, then nova, then neutron. Perhaps the rest can be done in parallel. | 09:24 |
| zigo | berndbausch: Fixed as you suggested, is it ok now? | 09:25 |
| openstackgerrit | France Berteloot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Migrate ceph-rbd-volume-driver.xml to rst https://review.openstack.org/251475 | 09:25 |
| dguitarbite | berndbausch: Yes, kind of. Lets figure that out :). | 09:27 |
| berndbausch | dguitarbite: For now I will dive into the code. Thanks. | 09:28 |
| dguitarbite | berndbausch: You are welcome:). I will send a patch soonish. | 09:28 |
| berndbausch | zigo: Are you sure you wanted to talk to me? | 09:28 |
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| zigo | berndbausch: Are you Christian Berendt? | 09:29 |
| zigo | I though you were, sorry. | 09:29 |
| berndbausch | zigo: No, Christian has left the building :) | 09:30 |
| zigo | berndbausch: Please fix your real name in your IRC client. | 09:30 |
| berndbausch | OK | 09:30 |
| Eva-i | AJaeger: thanks, will do | 09:31 |
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| berendt | can anybody have a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/251405/? would be nice to merge it. | 09:36 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Convert compute db and rpc to RST https://review.openstack.org/251167 | 09:48 |
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| openstackgerrit | France Berteloot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Migrate blockbridge-eps-driver.xml to rst https://review.openstack.org/251462 | 09:52 |
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| openstackgerrit | venkatamahesh proposed openstack/api-site: [Telemetry-v2-API] Documented the response parameters of Alarms, Events https://review.openstack.org/251714 | 09:54 |
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| openstackgerrit | France Berteloot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Migrate section_block-storage-sample-configuration-files.xml to rst https://review.openstack.org/251766 | 10:23 |
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| openstackgerrit | Christian Berendt proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Add cloudkitty to common and CLI reference https://review.openstack.org/251331 | 10:37 |
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| dguitarbite | berndbausch: Hi, you around?? | 10:44 |
| openstackgerrit | KATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Convert compute api and ec2api to RST https://review.openstack.org/251774 | 10:44 |
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| berndbausch | dguitarbite: Back from making dinner | 11:04 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Migrate ceph-rbd-volume-driver.xml to rst https://review.openstack.org/251475 | 11:18 |
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| openstackgerrit | Bernd Bausch proposed openstack/training-labs: Neutron L3 agent can only be started when OVS is fully up. So far this was handled by a simple sleep (1 sec), but it can take considerably longer than that. This patch adds a check for OVS to be up. https://review.openstack.org/251812 | 11:43 |
| openstackgerrit | Bernd Bausch proposed openstack/training-labs: Neutron L3 agent can only be started when OVS is fully up. So far this was handled by a simple sleep (1 sec), but it can take considerably longer than that. This patch adds a check for OVS to be up. https://review.openstack.org/251812 | 11:47 |
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| openstackgerrit | Bernd Bausch proposed openstack/training-labs: Add check for OVS to be up before starting L3 agent https://review.openstack.org/251812 | 12:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | France Berteloot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Migrate blockbridge-eps-driver.xml to rst https://review.openstack.org/251462 | 12:49 |
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| openstackgerrit | France Berteloot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Migrate blockbridge-eps-driver.xml to rst https://review.openstack.org/251462 | 13:03 |
| openstackgerrit | Silvan Kaiser proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Adds documentation for the Quobyte Manila driver. https://review.openstack.org/249829 | 13:06 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Update tables to fix wrong markup https://review.openstack.org/251867 | 14:33 |
| openstackgerrit | France Berteloot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Migrate blockbridge-eps-driver.xml to rst https://review.openstack.org/251462 | 14:36 |
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| openstackgerrit | Bogdan Dobrelya proposed openstack/ha-guide: Add a note about the Corosync/pacemaker services start modes https://review.openstack.org/235893 | 14:49 |
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| sc68cal | russellb: perhaps we need to make the networking guide modular so that people can drop in their content for their specific neutron solution | 14:59 |
| sc68cal | russellb: We've done something like this for the firstapp guide - each we made it so each SDK just drops into the content | 15:00 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: ^ what do you think | 15:00 |
| russellb | sounds complicated, heh | 15:00 |
| sc68cal | well frankly we don't benefit from having like 80 scenarios | 15:01 |
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| russellb | projects can have their own docs just fine | 15:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | moo | 15:01 |
| sc68cal | russellb: ok - am I mistaken in thinking that you wanted stuff in the networking guide for ovn? | 15:02 |
| russellb | i do | 15:02 |
| russellb | i think it's worth discussing an in/out line | 15:02 |
| Sam-I-Am | isnt ovn becoming the next reference arch for ovs? | 15:02 |
| russellb | and i think there's room for some more clearly community driven open source ones | 15:02 |
| Sam-I-Am | at least thats sort of what i was thinking | 15:02 |
| russellb | Sam-I-Am: you assume way more consensus than reality :) | 15:02 |
| russellb | it's pretty early for that sort of discussion | 15:03 |
| russellb | but that's certainly the desire from the OVS project | 15:03 |
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| russellb | to be clear, OVS itself would rather Neutron move to OVN than continue doing what it does with OVS manually | 15:03 |
| Sam-I-Am | right now ovs by itself it sort of blah - requires a linux bridge for secgroups, still needs conventional l3/dhcp agents, etc. | 15:03 |
| russellb | that's not an overnight thing | 15:03 |
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| * sc68cal sighs | 15:04 | |
| Sam-I-Am | so... | 15:04 |
| sc68cal | brb - gotta reboot because my crap laptop's ip6 stack is fubard | 15:04 |
| Sam-I-Am | pfft no one uses ip6 | 15:05 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: eat .... stuff | 15:05 |
| Sam-I-Am | lol | 15:05 |
| sc68cal | :) | 15:05 |
| sc68cal | brb | 15:05 |
| Sam-I-Am | you can pull my 32-bit ip out of my cold dead hands | 15:05 |
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| sc68cal | back | 15:10 |
| Sam-I-Am | front | 15:10 |
| Sam-I-Am | did you get your other 96 bits? | 15:10 |
| sc68cal | yeah | 15:10 |
| Sam-I-Am | so anywho... | 15:10 |
| Sam-I-Am | the underlying theme with neutron for a while now is release features without docs | 15:11 |
| Sam-I-Am | and this hasn't worked | 15:11 |
| sc68cal | yeah, and our API documentation is in not so good shape either | 15:12 |
| Sam-I-Am | so the idea with ovn, assuming it becomes the evolution of the ovs reference arch, is to create useful docs prior to release | 15:12 |
| Sam-I-Am | so far, and russellb knows more about this than i do, it seems like the first step is conventional-ish ovs with nb/sb databases... then replace dhcp agent... then replace l3 agent. all of this provides redundancy without dvr complexity. | 15:13 |
| * russellb looks forward to a point in time where the industry finally collapses down to not having 25 options here | 15:13 | |
| Sam-I-Am | sc68cal: no one wants to work on api docs :/ | 15:13 |
| sc68cal | russellb: but - then how am I supposed to get VC money for my doodad? | 15:13 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: right - but we have to figure something out because we have the api-site repo | 15:14 |
| russellb | sc68cal: you're late to that party | 15:14 |
| sc68cal | then inside neutron-specs we have some api stuff that got absolutely MURDERED when it was conveted to rst | 15:14 |
| russellb | for virtual l2/l3 networking anyway :) | 15:14 |
| russellb | sc68cal: so want to work on OVN with me? :) | 15:15 |
| Sam-I-Am | imo, current ovs has no benefits over linuxbridge, but ovn does | 15:15 |
| sc68cal | russellb: eventually. | 15:15 |
| russellb | i'll take it! | 15:16 |
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| Sam-I-Am | so whats the likelihood of ovn becoming The Thing? seems pretty reasonable to me. | 15:16 |
| sc68cal | it's got plenty of hype | 15:16 |
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| sc68cal | so the hype checkbox is checked | 15:16 |
| Sam-I-Am | russellb: theres not much we can do about the elevendyseven vendor add-ons and plug-ins for neutron | 15:16 |
| russellb | sc68cal: hype is a start! | 15:16 |
| russellb | we need NAT, sadly. | 15:17 |
| russellb | but native NAT support for OVS is up for review right now :) | 15:17 |
| sc68cal | russellb: indeed - now we just see if you can turn that into more people working on the code :) | 15:17 |
| russellb | that's the last major feature we're missing | 15:17 |
| russellb | sc68cal: don't need many people, honestly | 15:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | we gave vendors an opportunity to document their stuff in the central docs. some contributed, but then it all became a wasteland. no one assigned the job of maintaining it. | 15:17 |
| russellb | i'd like one or two more helping with neutron plugin | 15:17 |
| russellb | so I can work on OVN itself more | 15:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | and the docs team itself can't keep track of all these things | 15:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | (hence why docimpact changed too) | 15:17 |
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| russellb | we've got a good handfull working on both sides though | 15:18 |
| russellb | from several companies | 15:18 |
| sc68cal | yeah but OVS's docs suck | 15:19 |
| sc68cal | hard | 15:19 |
| Sam-I-Am | people dont like reading manpages with ascii diagrams. story at 11. :) | 15:19 |
| Sam-I-Am | hence... the network guide spec | 15:19 |
| sc68cal | I mean before the networking guide trying to figure out how OVS actually did stuff meant devstack | 15:19 |
| sc68cal | and about a year's worth of poking it | 15:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | lets take all the relevant content for operators and put it somewhere in a format they can understand with a sample architecture that works | 15:20 |
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| eduardo___ | AJaeger: could you help me with that table? I'm having some troubles to generate it | 15:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | when neutron says 'yay ovn ready' people can wrap their brains around it and use it which prevents development of FUD | 15:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | unlike... dvr, for example | 15:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | or really anything prior to the networking guide | 15:21 |
| russellb | sc68cal: documenting ovs is like documenting a programming language | 15:22 |
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| russellb | they have detailed reference docs, but they don't have recipes | 15:23 |
| AJaeger | eduardo___: which table? | 15:23 |
| russellb | recipes could be helpful too, but the reference docs are a critical pre-req | 15:23 |
| russellb | anyway, just my take | 15:23 |
| eduardo___ | AJaeger: | 15:23 |
| eduardo___ | AJaeger: that one that I'm trying to generate on this patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/245271/13 | 15:24 |
| russellb | i've been writing an OVN tutorial you can run in your terminal though, yay docs. https://github.com/openvswitch/ovs/blob/master/tutorial/OVN-Tutorial.md | 15:24 |
| russellb | :) | 15:24 |
| eduardo___ | AJaeger: the file is doc/common/tables/manila-hitachi_hnas.xml | 15:24 |
| russellb | mainly targeted at understanding what OVN does with various logical configurations | 15:24 |
| Sam-I-Am | russellb: and i think the networking guide will use some of this stuff | 15:25 |
| AJaeger | gpocentek can help best with these, eduardo___ | 15:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | we do teach conceptual stuff | 15:25 |
| AJaeger | But speak up what you need help with, I'll try | 15:25 |
| russellb | it gets pretty low level | 15:25 |
| russellb | assumes you know/care down to the level of OpenFlow | 15:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | the guide lacks a lot of it now, but the plan is to provide the most useful stuff to operators | 15:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | and if they need more, there's ovs docs | 15:25 |
| russellb | which people just trying to make stuff work probably don't care about | 15:25 |
| russellb | ... until it breaks :) | 15:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | its difficult to draw the line, but we've been good so far | 15:25 |
| russellb | cool | 15:25 |
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| eduardo___ | AJaeger: it is the file that u said that shouldn't exist at all. I've tried to chance some stuff on the manila.flagmappings file but it not worked | 15:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | the scenarios are a "how do i actually deploy this thing and understand where traffic goes and why" | 15:26 |
| sc68cal | well I think part of the thing was there was no good docs prior - especially on the OVS side | 15:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | without all the gobbly gook for ovs flows | 15:26 |
| eduardo___ | AJaeger: ok, I've been trying to talk with him but he hasn't answered yet | 15:26 |
| sc68cal | maybe with OVN we can point to those docs, from the networking guide | 15:26 |
| AJaeger | eduardo___: he might be off-line.... | 15:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | people saw ovs as a black box that works until it breaks | 15:26 |
| sc68cal | LB was in the same boat | 15:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | and neutron, for that matter | 15:27 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: ++ | 15:27 |
| eduardo___ | AJaeger: I sent an email to him last Friday | 15:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | now with the scenarios, people can at least figure out where traffic goes and what happens at each step | 15:27 |
| eduardo___ | AJaeger: but I'll try again. Thank you so much for all your help | 15:27 |
| AJaeger | eduardo___: send in a change with what fails and I can look at it later today | 15:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | even without getting into ovs flows, people can isolate their problems | 15:27 |
| eduardo___ | AJaeger: ok, appreciate it. | 15:28 |
| AJaeger | eduardo___: feel free to ask on the openstack-docs mailing list as well, so others can chime in. | 15:28 |
| * Sam-I-Am gets his paint out | 15:28 | |
| Sam-I-Am | russellb: i guess the main question is - whats the likelihood of ovn becoming the next ovs reference arch, and by what release. | 15:29 |
| russellb | I can't answer that question alone, but i can answer about OVN readiness for consumption timelines | 15:29 |
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| Sam-I-Am | russellb: who else can help with that question? | 15:30 |
| russellb | Sam-I-Am: the whole neutron community, it's a consensus thing | 15:30 |
| russellb | step 1 is making OVN ready | 15:30 |
| russellb | so people can use it, learn about it, try it, etc | 15:30 |
| russellb | I think we'll have all of what I consider core features done by Mitaka | 15:30 |
| Sam-I-Am | for me, 'try it' means using a real deployment rather than devstack | 15:31 |
| russellb | NAT is the last big thing AFAIK | 15:31 |
| russellb | yes | 15:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Martin Oemke proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Increase minimum hardware requirements https://review.openstack.org/251924 | 15:31 |
| russellb | you can try it now, but until we can actually replace the L3 agent without dropping something key like NAT, it's still WIP | 15:31 |
| russellb | but we're not far off | 15:31 |
| russellb | some things like this are rate limited because the work goes all the way down to the kernel level | 15:32 |
| russellb | so we have kernel work, ovs userspace work, ovn work, and networking-ovn work to do to implement the feature | 15:32 |
| russellb | security groups with ovs+conntrack was that same invasiveness | 15:32 |
| russellb | NAT is too | 15:32 |
| russellb | some misc features around implementing l3 required ovs userspace improvements before they could be done in OVN | 15:33 |
| russellb | like ability for a logical router built in ovs to be able to respojnd to ICMP | 15:33 |
| russellb | lots of really nice improvements being made in the stack as we go | 15:33 |
| russellb | anyway, i'm totally not answering your question | 15:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | question here too is how do people install the necessary version of openstack on the typical distros they use for deployment | 15:33 |
| russellb | my perspective: i think OVN is a natural evolution of neutron's OVS support, and it's what Neutron would have used from the beginning had it existed for OVS support | 15:34 |
| Sam-I-Am | historically, they've all included some ancient version that provides plenty of headaches (think dvr) | 15:34 |
| russellb | yes, it requires new OVS and new kernel stuff | 15:34 |
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| russellb | so this sort of transition isn't quick or clear cut | 15:34 |
| russellb | it's a gradual thing over time | 15:34 |
| Sam-I-Am | sure. but still makes sense to start docs now? | 15:35 |
| russellb | IMO yes :) | 15:35 |
| russellb | like anything else, docs just have to set expectations appropriately | 15:35 |
| russellb | introducing the new technology, how it differs, current status, how to try it, all that is goo | 15:35 |
| russellb | and appropriate now from my perspective | 15:35 |
| russellb | others asking "if OVN is in, what else can be in" is a valid question | 15:36 |
| russellb | so it's worth writing down some guidance | 15:36 |
| russellb | "non-vendor" probably isn't good enough | 15:36 |
| sc68cal | We should probably go ahead and do what firstapp does | 15:37 |
| Sam-I-Am | the biggest problem we've had with allowing third-party things in the central docs is sufficient committment to maintaining those docs | 15:37 |
| russellb | could start with http://governance.openstack.org/reference/tags/team_single-vendor.html | 15:37 |
| russellb | anything that fits that description doesn't go in | 15:37 |
| russellb | sc68cal: guess i'd have to look more | 15:37 |
| Sam-I-Am | a vendor might assign 1 person, get the job sort of done, then disappear | 15:37 |
| Sam-I-Am | then the docs team receives bugs about that stuff with no resources to address them | 15:37 |
| Sam-I-Am | and eventually we shitcan all of the content | 15:37 |
| russellb | good times | 15:38 |
| Sam-I-Am | we just went through and purged all of the third party stuff | 15:38 |
| russellb | sc68cal: but yeah, maybe you're right. would love to read a proposal so i can better understand | 15:38 |
| russellb | Sam-I-Am: defining third-party isn't clear cut | 15:38 |
| russellb | imo | 15:38 |
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| Sam-I-Am | tell me about it | 15:38 |
| russellb | :) | 15:38 |
| russellb | ovn is a separate git repo | 15:38 |
| russellb | it may even become a completely separate openstafck project based on a current -dev discussion | 15:39 |
| russellb | even less clear example is something like calico or mido | 15:39 |
| sc68cal | russellb: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/api-site/tree/firstapp/source/getting_started.rst#n88 | 15:39 |
| russellb | midonet | 15:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | with neutron, it sort of became 'not internally gated' | 15:39 |
| russellb | they're open source, but obviously primarily driven by one company | 15:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | e.g, the neutron team actively works on it | 15:39 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: check that link, basically use RST markup and the .. only tag | 15:39 |
| sc68cal | so we'd do .. only:: linuxbridge | 15:40 |
| sc68cal | .. only:: ovs | 15:40 |
| sc68cal | .. only:: ovn | 15:40 |
| sc68cal | etc | 15:40 |
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| russellb | and you render different versions of the same thing? | 15:40 |
| sc68cal | right | 15:40 |
| Sam-I-Am | what parses that? | 15:40 |
| russellb | but you still end up with everyone submitting their stuff to this guide, right? | 15:40 |
| russellb | which i thought was what you wanted to avoid? | 15:40 |
| russellb | or maybe i misunderstood | 15:41 |
| russellb | and you just want to have different renderings | 15:41 |
| russellb | so it's not all one giant rendered doc | 15:41 |
| sc68cal | right | 15:41 |
| Sam-I-Am | it does prevent people from seeing stuff that isn't current/complete, but it doesnt prevent bug reports about it | 15:41 |
| sc68cal | so for example | 15:41 |
| sc68cal | http://developer.openstack.org/firstapp-libcloud/index.html | 15:41 |
| sc68cal | so it'll eventually be | 15:42 |
| sc68cal | firstapp-<SDK-name>/index.html | 15:42 |
| russellb | interesting | 15:43 |
| sc68cal | networking guide could do something similar, work with URLs to do networking-guide-ovs, networking-guide-lb | 15:43 |
| russellb | Sam-I-Am: true, but at least the doc looks more independent, shrug.. | 15:43 |
| russellb | definitely an improvement over 20 things in one doc | 15:43 |
| * AJaeger hopes we need several variants of the networking guide... | 15:43 | |
| russellb | but what about a doc that lets you navigate all the networking guides? :-p | 15:44 |
| russellb | hm, there are 20 networking guides, which one do i go read ... | 15:44 |
| yamamoto_ | networking guides guide | 15:44 |
| Sam-I-Am | we all need a can of paint apparently | 15:45 |
| Sam-I-Am | or razors | 15:45 |
| sc68cal | I believe for the firstapp - they're linking to each one from developer.openstack.org - under each SDK | 15:45 |
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| russellb | Sam-I-Am: both, yes | 15:46 |
| sc68cal | so we'll just need an index page or something to show the list of neutron plugins, and link to the apropriate networking guide | 15:46 |
| * russellb nods | 15:46 | |
| sc68cal | (if available) | 15:46 |
| Sam-I-Am | ml2 covers a variety of things though | 15:46 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: right - but LB and OVS are both mechanism drivers | 15:47 |
| russellb | to summarize, i think there are 2 issues worth thinking more about and addressing. 1) how many things can come in, and what's the criteria. 2) if #1 is more than 2 or 3 (likely will be pressure for several if/when OVN gets added), then thinking of how to best manage and scale is good | 15:47 |
| russellb | the idea from firstapp seems like an improvement at least | 15:47 |
| sc68cal | i think that at least handles my concern | 15:47 |
| sc68cal | doing it the firstapp way, because it won't make a singular network guide that just explodes with content | 15:48 |
| russellb | yeah, wfm | 15:48 |
| russellb | with an index page, guide to guides :-p | 15:48 |
| russellb | painted turquoise | 15:48 |
| sc68cal | and we can handle it in the repo pretty easily with includes and other sphinx tricks - so stuff won't be thrown in a single directory | 15:49 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: what say you? | 15:49 |
| russellb | sc68cal: volunteering to build that? :) | 15:49 |
| russellb | and does it block ovn docs? | 15:49 |
| russellb | or just the ones after? or? | 15:49 |
| sc68cal | I think we should try and make ovn a first test/victim | 15:50 |
| russellb | k | 15:50 |
| sc68cal | I think the .. only :: tag is pretty straight forward - maybe I'll try making a .. only :: directive for OVS and LB | 15:51 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: that'd collapse 4 scenarios down to like 2 - 2 for lb and 2 for ovs right? | 15:51 |
| sc68cal | err - 3 | 15:52 |
| sc68cal | legacy x 2 | 15:52 |
| sc68cal | HA x 2 | 15:52 |
| sc68cal | provider nets x 2 | 15:52 |
| Sam-I-Am | sc68cal: had to step away | 15:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | i think this sort of makes sense. it would be the first time we do it in the docs repo i think. | 15:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | question is, does it make it harder for people to do a-b comparisons | 15:57 |
| Sam-I-Am | and if that even matters | 15:57 |
| annegentle | o/ if I may offer ... | 15:57 |
| Sam-I-Am | if we do this, ovn as a first victim makes sense | 15:57 |
| annegentle | so, it makes sense for firstapp, because a java dev isn't gonna read a .NET guide. | 15:57 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am: For me duplicating the guide is really a last resort, I prefer to have a single one... | 15:58 |
| annegentle | but for networking choices, it seems this stuff is nascent enough that people are in eval mode... asking questions to compare each | 15:58 |
| annegentle | for first app, there isn't comparison between languages | 15:58 |
| annegentle | for networking, there for sure is comparison | 15:58 |
| russellb | very good perspective annegentle | 15:58 |
| annegentle | so that's my two cents this mornin' | 15:58 |
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| russellb | if that's the case, it's back to "which ones to include" so it doesn't explode out of control ... open source? open source and a diverse contributor community (to what, the plugin and/or the networking tech itself?) ? | 15:59 |
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| sc68cal | annegentle: someone who wants Linux Bridge ain't gonna read OVS | 16:00 |
| sc68cal | I think most of the time people select an SDN and go - ok how do I use it with openstack | 16:01 |
| sc68cal | not - I'm going to use openstack now which SDN do I pick | 16:01 |
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| Sam-I-Am | i think linuxbridge and ovs are sort of special cases at this point | 16:03 |
| Sam-I-Am | a lot of nova-net folks think linuxbridge because they're familiar with it, but if ovn does all the things it says well and addresses things in a less complex fashion than dvr... its worth a read | 16:03 |
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| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: except they'd have to use open vswitch | 16:04 |
| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: not sure they're on board for that just yet | 16:04 |
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| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: the folks who want to use LB use it specifically due to issues with OVS | 16:05 |
| Sam-I-Am | or just ovs fud vs actual issues | 16:06 |
| Sam-I-Am | aight, i need to step away for a bit | 16:08 |
| Sam-I-Am | got a plane to catch in a bit | 16:08 |
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| annegentle | russellb: sc68cal: I think as a doc team we gave an edict that was "open source first priority" | 16:09 |
| * annegentle looks for that spec | 16:09 | |
| russellb | annegentle: there's a lot of open washing going on in this space | 16:09 |
| russellb | open source, technically | 16:09 |
| russellb | whether there's an actual open community as we define open in openstack is arguable | 16:10 |
| annegentle | heh | 16:10 |
| annegentle | ok, our line for neutron in http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/docs-specs/specs/kilo/move-driver-docs.html is this: "document ML2 plug-in with the mechanisms drivers OpenVSwitch and LinuxBridge" | 16:10 |
| openstackgerrit | France Berteloot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Migrate dell-equallogic-driver.xml to rst https://review.openstack.org/251941 | 16:11 |
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| sc68cal | annegentle: so what about sr-iov? or DPDK? or OVN? | 16:11 |
| sc68cal | or dragonflow? | 16:12 |
| sc68cal | or open contrail? | 16:12 |
| annegentle | sc68cal: bring-your-own-liaison, see http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/docs-specs/specs/kilo/move-driver-docs.html#full-documentation-by-vendors | 16:12 |
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| annegentle | sc68cal: vendor isn't quite right, could be "org" | 16:13 |
| sc68cal | annegentle: ok - and I think we have russellb at least onboard for OVN | 16:13 |
| annegentle | right | 16:13 |
| sc68cal | so ... are we saying no to ONV? | 16:13 |
| sc68cal | *OVN | 16:14 |
| russellb | yeah sign me up, i'm happy to help write and especially maintain and detail with bugs | 16:14 |
| russellb | deal* with | 16:14 |
| openstackgerrit | Bogdan Dobrelya proposed openstack/ha-guide: Add a note about the Corosync/pacemaker services start modes https://review.openstack.org/235893 | 16:15 |
| annegentle | sc68cal: nope, orgs can bring their own stuff | 16:16 |
| annegentle | nope to saying "no" | 16:16 |
| sc68cal | annegentle: ok - so if I were to make it more possible for russellb to contribute OVN specific content to the networking guide, we're OK? | 16:17 |
| sc68cal | similar to some of the sphinx wizardry that firstapp uses | 16:17 |
| russellb | sc68cal: i think she was just saying -1 to that, because people actually want to see all the networking options to compare/contrast | 16:22 |
| russellb | vs. dev of language A not giving a crap about the docs for other languages | 16:22 |
| openstackgerrit | Gauvain Pocentek proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Update the tables for manila hnas https://review.openstack.org/251947 | 16:22 |
| russellb | seems like a good point ... | 16:22 |
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| sc68cal | right - but my concern is having a networking guide that someone opens and there's like 20 scenarios | 16:29 |
| sc68cal | with very small differences between them | 16:30 |
| sc68cal | heavily duplicated content | 16:30 |
| annegentle | sc68cal: I can't really say we want more conditional guides, sounds like Andreas would agree. | 16:30 |
| annegentle | sc68cal: (.. only:: means conditional) | 16:31 |
| russellb | there are valid concerns on both sides here | 16:31 |
| russellb | unconditional, but strict inclusion criteria could be a compromise | 16:31 |
| annegentle | sc68cal: honestly why is it openstack's concern? | 16:31 |
| annegentle | sc68cal: those orgs/projects have docs | 16:31 |
| russellb | annegentle: it's docs for the openstack integration | 16:31 |
| russellb | the openstack integration is an openstack project | 16:32 |
| annegentle | sc68cal: I can think of reasons, of course, but would like your take | 16:32 |
| annegentle | russellb: so if the project is integrating with openstack why can't they host those docs? I've asked plenty of people plenty of times and get different answers :) | 16:32 |
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| russellb | why doesn't OVS itself document how to use OVS with Neutron? | 16:32 |
| annegentle | russellb: times 100 drivers, yes. | 16:32 |
| russellb | why doesn't Xen or KVM produce the docs for using those hypervisors with OpenStack? | 16:32 |
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| annegentle | russellb: I get different answers :) | 16:33 |
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| annegentle | russellb: I get it, I just don't want it necessarily. SDN could eat the world. | 16:33 |
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| russellb | basically, sounds like you were suggesting the networking guide shouldn't exist | 16:34 |
| russellb | if it should exist, there's probably an in/out line to be drawn | 16:34 |
| russellb | sc68cal is concerned about the in line including 25 things | 16:34 |
| russellb | and making the networking guide unwieldy and less useful overall | 16:34 |
| annegentle | russellb: and if there's "that much" to be gained by integrating with OpenStack, then don't drown the center, give everyone nice spokes in the wheels of the ecosystem | 16:34 |
| russellb | i don't understand what that means :) | 16:35 |
| annegentle | russellb: yeah I am really sad we have about six months without data/web stats for the networking guide. sc68cal that data could help us here | 16:35 |
| russellb | how so? | 16:35 |
| russellb | about how popular it is in general? | 16:35 |
| annegentle | russellb: the sphinx theme didn't have GA so we have no idea. | 16:35 |
| russellb | it's definitely been a benefit from my perspective | 16:35 |
| annegentle | :( | 16:35 |
| russellb | it's help clarify several parts of neutron for devs from other projects, at least | 16:36 |
| annegentle | it's hugely useful to have a set of links handy! | 16:36 |
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| annegentle | oh yes | 16:36 |
| annegentle | still, for this question, it's about users/installers/admins | 16:36 |
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| sc68cal | it has been extremely useful | 16:37 |
| sc68cal | the networking guide | 16:38 |
| sc68cal | based on my conversations in person with people at summits | 16:38 |
| * russellb nods | 16:38 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Diane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: Fix incorrect references for os-flavor-extra-spec in Nova v2.1 API https://review.openstack.org/251178 | 17:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | Diane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: (WIP) Spell-check and remove passive voice from api-site https://review.openstack.org/251467 | 17:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/security-doc: Glossary terms mark ups are added for few terms https://review.openstack.org/249050 | 18:03 |
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| Sam-I-Am | sc68cal: moo. | 20:07 |
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| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: [config-ref] Update manila Huawei driver https://review.openstack.org/252049 | 20:52 |
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| sc68cal | Sam-I-Am: hey - i'll hit you up again tomorrow - on my way out | 21:07 |
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| openstackgerrit | Diane Fleming proposed openstack/api-site: [WIP] Neutron QoS API Extension doc https://review.openstack.org/226834 | 21:49 |
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