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| Sam-I-Am | loquacities: moo | 00:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/security-doc: Add README.rst to security-doc repo https://review.openstack.org/279906 | 01:04 |
| Sam-I-Am | loquacities: we going to merge the install guide spec someday? | 01:07 |
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| loquacities | Sam-I-Am: yeah, i was waiting for the next APAC meeting | 01:34 |
| openstackgerrit | Matthew Kassawara proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Install: Glance updates for Mitaka https://review.openstack.org/280463 | 01:41 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matthew Kassawara proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Install: Glance updates for Mitaka https://review.openstack.org/280463 | 01:48 |
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| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/ha-guide: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/280507 | 06:00 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/ha-guide: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/280507 | 06:10 |
| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/280510 | 06:11 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: Imported Translations from Zanata https://review.openstack.org/280510 | 06:43 |
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| openstackgerrit | bighnaraj mishra proposed openstack/api-site: Adding the pagination and filter parameters https://review.openstack.org/280529 | 07:27 |
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| openstackgerrit | Manjeet Singh Bhatia proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: WIP: Add Network IP Availability API Extention https://review.openstack.org/278779 | 07:42 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: [nova-config-ref] Add interfaces.template information https://review.openstack.org/280339 | 09:10 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: Install: Glance updates for Mitaka https://review.openstack.org/280463 | 09:13 |
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| openstackgerrit | Matan Sabag proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: ScaleIO 2.0 supports OpenStack Mitaka. https://review.openstack.org/280567 | 09:32 |
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| openstackgerrit | KATO Tomoyuki proposed openstack/ha-guide: Add note about network nodes https://review.openstack.org/280244 | 10:29 |
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| openstackgerrit | jichenjc proposed openstack/api-site: Remove duplicate error code in volume https://review.openstack.org/278969 | 11:19 |
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| scheuran | hi AJaeger, I have a question regarding openstack-doc-tools, maybe you can help out... | 12:28 |
| scheuran | AJaeger, for a new network-guide page, I created some images with draw.io | 12:29 |
| scheuran | AJaeger, the source of those images are .xml files - in the docs the exported .png is used | 12:29 |
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| scheuran | AJaeger, however now the niceness tries to validate those source xmls as well | 12:30 |
| scheuran | AJaeger, is there a way to exclude the image source directory for this check? | 12:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | Tom Patzig proposed openstack/operations-guide: Added docu for flavor disk size -1 https://review.openstack.org/280648 | 12:31 |
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| AJaeger | scheuran: add them to doc-test.conf | 12:32 |
| AJaeger | Add a "file_exception" entry | 12:33 |
| scheuran | AJaeger, you're saying list each file separately? | 12:33 |
| scheuran | AJaeger, or is there a trick to exclude all in this dir? | 12:33 |
| AJaeger | scheuran: there's no trick to exclude everything | 12:35 |
| scheuran | AJaeger, ok thanks, I'll try. Do you also know by chance how to add my new scenario-guide to the toc-tree? | 12:37 |
| AJaeger | scheuran: add it to source/index.rst - or another page. | 12:41 |
| scheuran | AJaeger, perfect, thanks! | 12:42 |
| openstackgerrit | Tom Patzig proposed openstack/operations-guide: Added docu for flavor disk size -1 https://review.openstack.org/280648 | 12:42 |
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| thingee | loquacities: ping | 14:13 |
| AJaeger | thingee: better come back in 6+ (?) hours - after Australian sunrise ;) | 14:14 |
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| AJaeger | thingee: anything I can help with quickly? | 14:14 |
| thingee | AJaeger: I believe Lana is at the ops meetup as I? | 14:14 |
| AJaeger | thingee: Didn't know... | 14:14 |
| thingee | AJaeger: anyways I was wondering about the suggestion here http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2015-December/008062.html | 14:15 |
| AJaeger | best discuss with her... | 14:15 |
| AJaeger | basically the challenge we have is that the doc team is testing the Install Guide for each release | 14:16 |
| thingee | oh my mistake lana is not here | 14:16 |
| AJaeger | And with each project we take in, that test matrix growths - but the number of people updating and testing the Install Guide is not growing at all ;( | 14:16 |
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| Sam-I-Am | thingee: there's a patch for manila in the install guide? | 14:17 |
| AJaeger | thingee: asettle is there but she'S not involved with Install Guide. | 14:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | so that e-mail might be a bit out of date | 14:17 |
| AJaeger | thingee: and Sam-I-Am is Install Guide expert ;) | 14:17 |
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| dencaval | Guys, I found a bug in the packaging of manila for ubuntu. The start-stop service is not included for a manila process. What should I do? | 14:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | dencaval: you mean, an init script? | 14:20 |
| dencaval | Sam-I-Am, yes | 14:21 |
| AJaeger | dencaval: file a bug with ubuntu | 14:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | you'll need to open a bug for the ubuntu package version | 14:21 |
| asettle | AJaeger: you rang? | 14:21 |
| thingee | yup I just spoke to asettle | 14:21 |
| AJaeger | asettle: ;) | 14:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | dencaval: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/manila | 14:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | dencaval: you might also want to e-mail james page | 14:21 |
| asettle | Oh yo! | 14:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | dencaval: since... manila doesnt work without that | 14:22 |
| AJaeger | asettle: not really - just pointed out to thingee that you're at the OPS meeting but not loquacities AFAIK | 14:22 |
| dencaval | Sam-I-Am, Thanks, I'll report it. | 14:22 |
| asettle | AJaeger: gracias. I seem to be the rep for docs at the mo. I've had a lot of interest in docs, contributions, etc | 14:22 |
| thingee | ok so here's my thought. I'm in total agreement with having the install docs in individual project soure tree. But is there a plan to make those docs discoverable? | 14:22 |
| asettle | Been an interesting two days. | 14:22 |
| thingee | for example, those docs in tree are usually developer docs. | 14:23 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: thats... not the plan? | 14:23 |
| thingee | right that's my question is that the plan | 14:23 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: the idea is that projects incubate their install guides in-tree, then when all requirements are met for the central install guide, they can move to it | 14:23 |
| AJaeger | thingee: besides that email, I haven't seen much discussion, so we need to start it again and then form a plan | 14:24 |
| thingee | AJaeger: +1 | 14:24 |
| AJaeger | asettle: recruit them all ;) | 14:24 |
| asettle | AJaeger: doing the best I can. I have 2 new recruits thus far ;) although admittedly one is working with me on dev docs (i'm sorry!) | 14:24 |
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| Sam-I-Am | AJaeger: i met with the manila install guide folks at the meeting last week or week before to work out the details | 14:25 |
| Sam-I-Am | the requirements for moving to the central install guide are well-defined | 14:25 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am: great! | 14:25 |
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| thingee | Sam-I-Am: is this idea documented? :) | 14:25 |
| thingee | seems like there is confusion from the community | 14:26 |
| thingee | oh there is a doc spec! | 14:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: the per-release install guide spec more or less covers the requirements for getting into the install guide. however, it should be moved into a more permanent location. | 14:26 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: sounds good, thanks | 14:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: the tl;dr - because the guide relies on distro packages, we need all distros in the guide to provide packages for a project before we publish instructions for it. thats the biggest hurdle. the second one is trying to balance the limited resources a first-time installer might have vs. what a bunch of services require. | 14:28 |
| thingee | interesting feedback, there were only about three people who raised their hand at the ops midcycle that are using distro packages. | 14:29 |
| Sam-I-Am | sure. i get it. but for newbies, packages are usually familiar and the fastest way to install openstack. | 14:30 |
| Sam-I-Am | i wouldnt use distro packages in production either | 14:30 |
| Sam-I-Am | but we dont have a source option that wont make people's eyes roll back in their heads | 14:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | Major Hayden proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Network guide: LBaaS v2 configuration guide https://review.openstack.org/278128 | 14:32 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/openstack-manuals: [neutron] New linuxbridge config option https://review.openstack.org/272942 | 14:33 |
| annegentle | thingee: thanks for reporting from the midcycle! | 14:33 |
| dencaval | Sam-I-Am, I opened the issue: https://bugs.launchpad.net/manila/+bug/1546116 but I don't know the james page e-mail. | 14:35 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1546116 in manila (Ubuntu) "manila share process init script is missing" [Undecided,New] | 14:35 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: what's "it" in "it should be moved to a more permanent location" -- the spec or the doc or? | 14:36 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle: requirements for getting new projects into the install guide | 14:36 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle: along with what might cause projects to be dropped | 14:36 |
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| Sam-I-Am | dencaval: james.page@ubuntu.com | 14:37 |
| dencaval | Sam-I-Am, thanks | 14:37 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: so I think the requirement of distro packages is a catch-22. distro packages don't happen unless you're a mature project. The openstack project navigator says you're not mature, unless you have install docs. | 14:38 |
| AJaeger | thingee: you can fix the project navigator, can't you? ;) | 14:38 |
| annegentle | thingee: we have a contributor who has written an install-from-source guide, would that solve it really? | 14:38 |
| annegentle | (it meaning the catch 22) | 14:38 |
| annegentle | thingee: we've always historically (and I'm not one to not change because of history) had the install guide as a learning device. Install by hand 20 times. You learn. | 14:39 |
| thingee | annegentle: my original complaint was if development teams are being told to put their install docs in tree (http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2015-December/008062.html) | 14:39 |
| thingee | annegentle: those won't be easily discoverable. since usually those docs are dev docs, not operator docs. | 14:39 |
| annegentle | thingee: also can much of the 30 projects beyond the base six be installed without the base six? | 14:40 |
| annegentle | thingee: oh discoverability on the docs site is a problem I agree. | 14:40 |
| thingee | so if the docs.openstack.org site somehow does some thing to this those from each source tree, that would be awesome | 14:40 |
| annegentle | thingee: that's what I'd like too | 14:40 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: do you believe in that approach? the "from source compilation?" | 14:40 |
| thingee | so I was asking if there was a plan with that, or if people considered this problem | 14:40 |
| annegentle | thingee: a mere matter of resources | 14:40 |
| annegentle | thingee: we agree on the problem space, no doubt | 14:40 |
| thingee | annegentle: it's really popular by the ops folks of doing virtualenv packages instead of distro packages. | 14:41 |
| AJaeger | One option: We could add also an extra page to the install guide pointing to other documents that are in devref... | 14:41 |
| annegentle | thingee: is that possible with neutron? | 14:41 |
| Sam-I-Am | the problem with the in-tree install guides is they're crap | 14:41 |
| thingee | rackspace does it today to keep with master. bluebox also has their own solution they're making available in the big tent soon | 14:41 |
| annegentle | oh wait I misread "virtualenv" sorry | 14:41 |
| annegentle | thingee: ^^ | 14:41 |
| Sam-I-Am | they have no standard, often outdated, and they require using pip install or devstack, both of which break packages | 14:42 |
| annegentle | thingee: yes virtualenv would make sense | 14:42 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: what's they? | 14:42 |
| Sam-I-Am | this is why we came up with standards to get stuff into the central guide | 14:42 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle: in-tree install guides | 14:42 |
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| thingee | Sam-I-Am: again, I'm fine with them being out of tree. | 14:42 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: ah ok | 14:42 |
| Sam-I-Am | if we can come up with a streamlined way to do source install, i'm all for it | 14:42 |
| Sam-I-Am | but right now its just too involved for new users | 14:43 |
| Sam-I-Am | its come up quite a few times in the past that we should move away from packages | 14:43 |
| Sam-I-Am | lots of talk and no action | 14:44 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: here's the problem. Magnum has no install docs, but was mentioned in the keynote. Now operators are asking how to do this, but there are no install docs. Are we going to wait for distro packages to support that before we give people guidance? | 14:44 |
| masteinhauser | even within our own CI and dev practices, we (Blue Box) generally try to avoid source installs since it can so easily break at times. We're now basically package first, with testing of that and certainly in prod. Dev can easily be either, depending on how much pain we want that day. | 14:44 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: projects should be taking up packaging with distros | 14:45 |
| masteinhauser | if we could routinely do source, I think we likely would prefer it. We have our own needs on repeatability and such that most people likely do not require. | 14:45 |
| annegentle | masteinhauser: thanks for that input | 14:45 |
| Sam-I-Am | what we cant do is mix packages and pip | 14:46 |
| annegentle | masteinhauser: good to know | 14:46 |
| Sam-I-Am | because that breaks all the things | 14:46 |
| annegentle | I think there are two guides: one for base layer, one for any other interesting projects to you | 14:46 |
| annegentle | defcore and more if you will | 14:46 |
| Sam-I-Am | the install guide is the 'happy path' for new users of both openstack and existing users looking to try a new project. its not in-depth for any partcular project, but needs to work in its entirety. | 14:46 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: I'm going to put our package debate aside. Because projects today do not work with distro packages. It's a bit more politics than that with getting distros to support you. | 14:47 |
| thingee | regardless | 14:47 |
| thingee | If docs team is going to ask for projects to do them out of tree. they need to be discoverable | 14:47 |
| thingee | that's all I'm asking | 14:47 |
| annegentle | thingee: do you have access to web dev who could help with discoverability? | 14:47 |
| Sam-I-Am | what i dont want is "works in devstack" projects | 14:47 |
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| Sam-I-Am | if your install only works on a devstack all-in-one, its not a project | 14:48 |
| annegentle | thingee: cuz that's well beyond just install | 14:48 |
| thingee | annegentle: I can make stuff happen, but I'm discussing it with the team before I go off and do anything. | 14:48 |
| annegentle | thingee: sure, also please follow up with loquacities | 14:48 |
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| Sam-I-Am | there needs to be some level of quality for things linked from central docs | 14:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | because people are going to file bugs against openstack-manuals when it doesnt work | 14:49 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: I disagree. not having any docs leads to deployers using devstack plugins that the projects make available | 14:49 |
| openstackgerrit | Matan Sabag proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: ScaleIO 2.0 supports OpenStack Liberty. https://review.openstack.org/280740 | 14:49 |
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| thingee | so again, the docs team is going to suggest projects go do there own thing out of tree (http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2015-December/008062.html) then they should be discoverable | 14:50 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: this topic has come up rather frequently, and in the end boils down to resources | 14:51 |
| Sam-I-Am | the biggest barrier for the install guide now is distro packages | 14:51 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am: let'S make them discoverable but write up a guidance for what should be used for those so that projects have commono setup. | 14:51 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: this is not about resources. Manilla just proposed an install doc, and it was rejected. | 14:51 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: it... wasnt.... | 14:52 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: so I'm saying, if they put it in tree, it should be discovered | 14:52 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am: It was rejected before Christmas. | 14:52 |
| thingee | if they put it out of tree* | 14:52 |
| Sam-I-Am | the manila thing appears to be more of a mess than it really is | 14:52 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: that's not fair to people that want to use it when the developers are trying to make it accessible. | 14:53 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am: like thingee has been working on getting a standard for cinder drivers to follow for inclusion, we can also say, here's what projects do - and if they do, we prominently link to them from place X. | 14:53 |
| Sam-I-Am | there's a patch in review now for adding manila to the guide, and assuming dencaval can get the ubuntu packaging problem fixed (or we can at worst put a workaround) ... it goes in. | 14:53 |
| thingee | are you going to say the same thing to magnum? | 14:53 |
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| dencaval | Sam-I-Am, It's me | 14:54 |
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| annegentle | thingee: some of this is about accountability... should magnum be accountable for their install docs? | 14:54 |
| thingee | anteaya: I feel like I'm repeating myself :( | 14:54 |
| thingee | whoops | 14:54 |
| annegentle | thingee: I get that you're not saying we have to write it, but if we are saying, we don't write until packaged, then what is the magnum answer? | 14:54 |
| Sam-I-Am | lol | 14:54 |
| thingee | that was meant for annegentle | 14:54 |
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| annegentle | heh happens all the time | 14:54 |
| dencaval | Sam-I-Am, I did a workaround, but I was recommended to remove it... | 14:54 |
| dencaval | Sam-I-Am, brb | 14:54 |
| anteaya | annegentle: :) | 14:55 |
| annegentle | thingee: I'm genuinely curious, not arguing. | 14:55 |
| annegentle | anteaya: :) | 14:55 |
| * anteaya waves to -docs | 14:55 | |
| Sam-I-Am | dencaval: i recommended removal assuming it was fixed... or will be fixed by release. | 14:55 |
| * Sam-I-Am isnt trying to argue either | 14:55 | |
| annegentle | thingee: magnum can work on packaging and docs, or work on docs in their tree, or, something I haven't thought of | 14:55 |
| Sam-I-Am | if we could use a format for the install guide that removes the limitation of packaging, that's great | 14:56 |
| thingee | I'm asking for manilla, magnum or whatever ... they can write their docs in their own source tree. In the end, these should be available on docs.openstack.org | 14:56 |
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| thingee | if it's scary things to some people like using containers, virtual envs or whatever, they should be available. | 14:56 |
| AJaeger | thingee: they *are* available today on dosc.openstack.org - but they are not easy discoverable | 14:57 |
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| annegentle | AJaeger: do you think that's the root problem? Possibly. | 14:58 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: is a "collection" the discoverability factor? | 14:58 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: or search? | 14:58 |
| AJaeger | annegentle: I mean: Looking at manila, there'S http://docs.openstack.org/developer/manila/adminref/quick_start.html | 14:59 |
| asettle | AJaeger and annegentle - basically thingee would just like it to be *more* discoverable for usability. Which I can understand. | 14:59 |
| Sam-I-Am | i think of in-tree as developer-facing, docs.o.o as operator/deployer-facing | 14:59 |
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| AJaeger | But it's hard to find as thingee said | 14:59 |
| annegentle | thingee: AJaeger: when I search for "openstack magnum install" I get devstack, contributor docs, then posts that it's broken. So honestly it's testing as the root cause. | 14:59 |
| thingee | annegentle: that's not what I'm saying.. :( | 15:00 |
| annegentle | thingee: go on, help me understand | 15:00 |
| AJaeger | and "openstack manila install" gives me the link I just posted - cool! | 15:00 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: right. | 15:00 |
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| annegentle | AJaeger: and oh, it's a source install | 15:01 |
| AJaeger | annegentle: AS I said before: One option is to have a central index page linking to all of them | 15:01 |
| annegentle | interesting | 15:01 |
| AJaeger | annegentle: Could be a page in the current Install Guide, could be elsewhere. A deep link to the projects | 15:01 |
| annegentle | AJaeger: ok sorry I guess I missed that, is that "prominently link from X" | 15:02 |
| AJaeger | yes | 15:02 |
| AJaeger | If I don't use google, you go to docs.o.o find Install Guides - and then nothing for Manila, magnum... | 15:02 |
| AJaeger | So, then the question is: Where do they live? look for them, and check whether the Admin Guide is the right document.... | 15:03 |
| thingee | annegentle: ok so you found the magnum install devstack doc. That's what people are going to find. what I'm discussing here is *when* magnum decides to write their installation docs, in their source tree, docs.openstack.org should say "installation doc for magnum" | 15:04 |
| AJaeger | annegentle: but I'm open to other ideas as well... | 15:04 |
| thingee | there will also be "installation doc for manilla" | 15:04 |
| annegentle | thingee: ok, I think we agree, and then AJaeger's idea is those links would be collected in a single place | 15:05 |
| thingee | annegentle: yes | 15:05 |
| AJaeger | a single place that is easy to discover | 15:06 |
| annegentle | thingee: there's still a quality problem :) but I'm not sure how to handle that. In other words, if we link from this install landing page, who vouches that it works? I think the project team right? | 15:06 |
| thingee | annegentle: But what I don't agree with is the docs team having an opinion on how people should deploy their clouds. If people want to use methods that aren't traditional, that's there choice. but so far good examples of implementations are also not using packages. | 15:06 |
| thingee | /implementations/deployments/ | 15:06 |
| annegentle | thingee: all we do collectively is try to teach. Yes there are some opinions around :) | 15:06 |
| AJaeger | annegentle: We can document a few requirements and do a review before adding documents to the central place. | 15:07 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: at every ops meeting i've been at, i've asked ops to contribute how they're installing stuff, so we can improve our methods | 15:07 |
| annegentle | thingee: and that feedback should also go to loquacities of course, I'm merely trying to gather info. | 15:07 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: its all talk and no action | 15:07 |
| Sam-I-Am | i have seen zero contributions from operators to the install guide | 15:07 |
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| Sam-I-Am | being about the only person who contributes to the install guide, i barely have enough time to update it for the next release let alone rewrite and test another installation method | 15:08 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: good thing my example was from a developer, not operator https://review.openstack.org/#/c/276031/ | 15:08 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: I'm asking for a process to be defined, so when magnum comes around they're not confused, as ben was here | 15:08 |
| thingee | bswartz: | 15:08 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: thats fine, but it also assumes packages | 15:08 |
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| Sam-I-Am | what i'm talking about is re-writing the install guide to support projects that do not have packages | 15:09 |
| Sam-I-Am | the packaging barrier is annoying to everyone, including myself | 15:09 |
| AJaeger | thingee: that link is not fair! I gave a -2 for a single reason: Duplicate of https://review.openstack.org/273724 | 15:09 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: that's fine, because we're all about choice, right? | 15:09 |
| Sam-I-Am | distro packages are annoyingly buggy | 15:09 |
| thingee | AJaeger: fine here http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2015-December/008062.html | 15:09 |
| Sam-I-Am | and trying to get any of them to fix stuff is difficult | 15:09 |
| thingee | " | 15:10 |
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| thingee | If your main concern is increasing the maturity of the project, then publishing an Install Guide in your own source is certainly the easiest and most effective way to make that happen." | 15:10 |
| AJaeger | thingee: that one is fair ;) | 15:10 |
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| thingee | AJaeger: ok, so since loquacities already said this was fine, I'm just saying lets have this collected in one place, which AJaeger and annegentle seem to agree with | 15:11 |
| thingee | AJaeger: whoops that wasn't directed to you. more just putting that agreement out there | 15:12 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: really, i'm not trying to argue that we dont want more projects to be easily installable. :/ | 15:13 |
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| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: heh | 15:13 |
| Sam-I-Am | the key to getting there is removing the barrier of packages | 15:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | then we can install anything | 15:14 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: if you believe install docs shouldn't exist because the project doesn't have a distro package, that's an opinionated requirement. | 15:15 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: that requirement only exists for the central install guide because we dont have a method that supports source installs | 15:16 |
| thingee | and that's fine. I think if they go in their own tree they can be "crap", and you won't have to maintain them. | 15:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | frankly, after trying to make the install guide work with packages from 3-4 distros since havana... i'd be the first one in line for a non-package install guide | 15:17 |
| thingee | and I agree, they can get outdated, lack of help to make them better | 15:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | the key about the central install guide is that its often the first piece of documentation that potential openstack users see | 15:18 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: have you seen Phil's series about installing from source? Let me dig up the links. Maybe you all can discuss at your next install team meeting | 15:18 |
| Sam-I-Am | for a long time, prior to icehouse, the install guide was a 'reactive' guide | 15:18 |
| Sam-I-Am | and after spending a month trying to figure out how to use openstack, i still have scars | 15:18 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: that's fine, but when operators search for how to install magnum, they'll get the magnum wiki today about some devstack plugin :( | 15:19 |
| Sam-I-Am | so starting with icehouse, we began testing it... and making sure it actually worked so new users have a good experience, not the crappy experience i had. | 15:19 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: https://developer.rackspace.com/blog/install-openstack-from-source/ | 15:19 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: so if we put the docs that are developed in magnum tree on docs.openstack.org, that can be avoided. And yea, it may be limited by an opinionated configuration management, or style of using virtual environments. | 15:19 |
| Sam-I-Am | i have been confident that barring any typos, someone can reach the happy state of launching an instance and seeing it work. | 15:19 |
| thingee | and manilla, and so on | 15:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | the problem with in-tree stuff is i fear it will become reactive and frustrating to people. not always the case, but from what i've seen with in-tree docs... pretty common. | 15:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | and then people will file bugs on openstack-manuals for them | 15:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | which we cant address | 15:20 |
| Sam-I-Am | what we need is dedication from people on each project with any sort of install guide to make sure it works | 15:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | and we dont have that now | 15:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | i have seen zero contributions from any project for the docs.o.o install guide | 15:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | i just go figure it out every cycle | 15:21 |
| Sam-I-Am | now and then we get someone helping, but its rare | 15:21 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: I think projects like magnum are going to have to try to install their things (without devstack) when writing their docs. so I think that's the plan | 15:21 |
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| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am: Aodh came from ildikov - so from telemetry folks | 15:22 |
| Sam-I-Am | it would be nice if we could have some sort of standards for in-tree install guides (like not using devstack or AIOs) | 15:22 |
| Sam-I-Am | AJaeger: yeah... that's one. in 2.5 years. | 15:22 |
| Sam-I-Am | AJaeger: manila is the other | 15:22 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: Sam-I-Am: Hi | 15:22 |
| Sam-I-Am | the question is will they be updated for future releases | 15:22 |
| Sam-I-Am | or left to ... me | 15:22 |
| AJaeger | Sam-I-Am: You said "zero contributions for any project" ;) | 15:22 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: Should I read back and/or is there any question for me? | 15:23 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: they won't be left to you because they are in their own project tree. you can focus on the central guide with packages. | 15:23 |
| annegentle | https://developer.rackspace.com/blog/install-openstack-from-source/ | 15:23 |
| Sam-I-Am | ildikov: nothing for you here... :) | 15:23 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle: not contributed upstream | 15:23 |
| ildikov | Sam-I-Am: ok, cool :) | 15:23 |
| thingee | ok so my takeaway is, I can tell projects to do their own in tree thing, since they don't have packages. | 15:23 |
| Sam-I-Am | i dont see it on review.openstack.org | 15:23 |
| thingee | thanks! | 15:23 |
| annegentle | thingee: yes please and I am so glad you're there. | 15:23 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: if they dont have packages, thats the only thing they can really do. | 15:24 |
| AJaeger | ildikov: you were just mentioned as a role citizen ;) No need to backscroll or answer | 15:24 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: the only thing i can add is making sure those instructions work outside of devstack and support multi-node deployments if thats how the service works | 15:24 |
| ildikov | AJaeger: haha, cool, tnx :) | 15:24 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: in other words, the instructions deploy a reference arch that operators can build out | 15:24 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: most of the docs that you're referring to I believe are developer docs. | 15:24 |
| thingee | unless you have an example | 15:25 |
| AJaeger | It would be cool if magnum writes a guide that builds on top of the architecture in the install guide. | 15:25 |
| AJaeger | So, same setup for controller, compute node,... | 15:25 |
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| Sam-I-Am | AJaeger: also nice | 15:25 |
| AJaeger | That way they can say, setup as install guide, use this option - and then add... | 15:26 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: and the problem is all they have is developer docs that refer to devstack or vagrant. | 15:26 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: which isn't content directed to operators | 15:26 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle: that blog post only installs keystone and is considerably more complex than using packages for first-time users. we want people to know what they're doing, not bury it in system-level cruft and obscurew scripts. | 15:26 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: I think you'll people still end up that way with packages. | 15:27 |
| thingee | it's packages + their own patches | 15:27 |
| thingee | I can tell you as working at dreamhost my experience with packages was horrible. If you want the packages fixed, you can pay more money. | 15:27 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: there's definitely a lack of operator-oriented docs in the devref, but thats sort of the point of devref. admin/operator docs are supposed to be in openstack-manuals. | 15:27 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: understood but again loquacities just asked for them to be put in devref http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-docs/2015-December/008062.html | 15:28 |
| Sam-I-Am | the answer to all of this is write a source-based install guide that supports all packages, with committed resources from each project in the guide to maintain their content. | 15:28 |
| * thingee wonders how many more times he has to link to this point | 15:28 | |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: I'm not sure that sort of policy decision is up to you, let's talk to loquacities | 15:28 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: i dont agree with putting operator docs in the devref, but i can say why that suggestion was made. | 15:29 |
| annegentle | thingee: you know loquacities is in Brisbane, and won't be online for another 8 hours or so right? | 15:29 |
| Sam-I-Am | it all boils down to resources | 15:29 |
| Sam-I-Am | lots of talk, no contributions | 15:29 |
| thingee | annegentle: yes, these are pings for reference. | 15:29 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: right. and accountability means you can't complain about contributions instead you worry about your own accountability. | 15:29 |
| annegentle | thingee: ok good just making sure | 15:30 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: and take it to the install team for discussion | 15:30 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle: the install team is me | 15:30 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: that's problematic | 15:31 |
| Sam-I-Am | yep | 15:31 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: but may also indicate the choices you're making have driven others away. I honestly don't know, just making an observation and not a judgement. Investigate that further with cberendt please. | 15:31 |
| annegentle | thingee: keep me posted when you get to API info :) | 15:32 |
| Sam-I-Am | christian gave up the install guide due to work projects | 15:32 |
| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: also good info. then take it up with loquacities | 15:32 |
| annegentle | thingee: and microversions | 15:32 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: that's fine. I'm ok with doing this outside of the install team if this is how things are going to be. Thanks everyone for your time! | 15:32 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: 'how things are going to be' ? | 15:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | i thought we're on the same page here about why things are the way they are | 15:33 |
| thingee | again, I don't think you dictate how operators should deploy their cloud. | 15:33 |
| Sam-I-Am | we... dont? | 15:34 |
| thingee | and since there is a suggestion to do this out of the central install docs, because of distro packages only, I'm fine with working with developers on installations that may not use distro packages, that might be some other methods like containers or virtual envs. | 15:35 |
| Sam-I-Am | we need to get rid of distro packages in the install guide | 15:36 |
| Sam-I-Am | i've wanted to do that for a long time | 15:36 |
| Sam-I-Am | for two reasons... a) they're problematic b) they limit the main install guide to projects that have packages | 15:37 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: I'm very confused by this conversation. earlier you said it was a requirement, now you're saying you're open to the idea. | 15:37 |
| Sam-I-Am | thingee: thats why i'm thinking we have a misunderstanding... and trying to explain myself | 15:37 |
| thingee | ok. | 15:38 |
| Sam-I-Am | its only a requirement because thats how the install guide works NOW | 15:38 |
| Sam-I-Am | its always used packages | 15:38 |
| bswartz | thingee: pong | 15:38 |
| Sam-I-Am | right now, i can only find time to update the existing install guide for each release... which is mainly config updates and testing. significant testing, i might add. | 15:39 |
| thingee | Sam-I-Am: how about we see what the magnum people come up with. If it doesn't use packages and does some other solution (of course not devstack), let discuss it then and see what we can do. | 15:39 |
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| Sam-I-Am | we've been looking to drop packages for a few cycles now | 15:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | i've been hoping for some operator to contribute a source deployment mechanism to docs | 15:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | so i dont have to write one from scratch | 15:39 |
| Sam-I-Am | i've asked at the last couple of mid-cycle ops meetups | 15:40 |
| thingee | there are people here using openstack ansible and soon to be proposed for the big tent https://github.com/blueboxgroup/giftwrap | 15:40 |
| Sam-I-Am | if it works, and its clean, and not too overly complex for our audience of new users... lets adopt it. | 15:40 |
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| annegentle | just curious, why not osad? | 15:40 |
| asettle | Because it's so sad | 15:40 |
| asettle | OHHHH | 15:40 |
| asettle | Okay | 15:40 |
| asettle | Thanks guys | 15:40 |
| thingee | there's also kolla, not sure if anyone is using it yet | 15:41 |
| asettle | I'm out | 15:41 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle: because it doesnt teach people what's happening under the hood | 15:41 |
| annegentle | thingee: yeah | 15:41 |
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| Sam-I-Am | the point of the install guide is teaching people how openstack works, not pushing a button | 15:41 |
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| annegentle | Sam-I-Am: oh and will this giftwrap meet that need | 15:41 |
| Sam-I-Am | we have way too many people who install something like packstack... think it works... move it into production... and three months later are crying for help in #openstack because it died and they have no idea what to do | 15:42 |
| Sam-I-Am | the plan is manual install via install guide -> learn how to secure/HA it -> learn how to use deployment tools like openstack-ansible, kolla, whatever -> deploy | 15:42 |
| Sam-I-Am | the install guide is a training guide | 15:42 |
| Sam-I-Am | its not meant to deploy the most robust or secure openstack cloud | 15:43 |
| openstackgerrit | Stephen Finucane proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: flavors: Use openstack-client https://review.openstack.org/280771 | 15:43 |
| openstackgerrit | Stephen Finucane proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: flavors: Correct some formatting issues https://review.openstack.org/280772 | 15:43 |
| Sam-I-Am | its there for first-timers | 15:43 |
| Sam-I-Am | annegentle: i havent looked at giftwrap, but if its some sort of source-based packaging, it might work | 15:43 |
| openstackgerrit | Stephen Finucane proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Correct CPU policy flavor documentation https://review.openstack.org/280774 | 15:43 |
| openstackgerrit | Stephen Finucane proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Add CPU thread policy flavor documentation https://review.openstack.org/280775 | 15:43 |
| * AJaeger has to do some shopping now... | 15:45 | |
| masteinhauser | Sam-I-Am: giftwrap is for creating "packages" of source into virtualenvs. Packaging at that point is simply for shipping the bits, virtualenv is for decoupling from distro tools. Maybe helpful, but not entirely certain in greater overall workflow and design. | 15:45 |
| Sam-I-Am | masteinhauser: that sounds useful | 15:46 |
| masteinhauser | Sam-I-Am: I think we hope it is. It's also distro agnostic then too, well, mostly. Kicks out deb/rpm using fpm (which may make people rage, eh) | 15:47 |
| Sam-I-Am | haha. | 15:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | well, if you know how to make it work in the way the install guide works now, feel free to push a spec for N | 15:48 |
| masteinhauser | Sam-I-Am: but, it also tries to pull from and track upstream source to move far more quickly and layer in any forked patches (when needed) | 15:48 |
| masteinhauser | cool, I'll dig in and take a look. | 15:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | does it package all-the-things ? | 15:49 |
| Sam-I-Am | like... all projects in openstack | 15:49 |
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| masteinhauser | not currently, but it was written with core in mind and if others follow same process (as they should) it should be okay. | 15:50 |
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| Sam-I-Am | masteinhauser: its probably not asking TOO much of projects to package their stuff in a way that doesnt involve conventional distro packages | 15:52 |
| Sam-I-Am | there was some discussion a while ago about using CI to create distro packages that the install guide (and other people) could use, but... never happened | 15:53 |
| masteinhauser | yeah, not unexpected but glad to hear there was at least thought around it | 15:54 |
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| Sam-I-Am | masteinhauser: plenty of thought | 15:57 |
| Sam-I-Am | this conversation comes up at least once a cycle | 15:57 |
| Sam-I-Am | distro packages have their problems, but for the audience of the install guide... they work. however, they prevent new services from entering the install guide. | 15:57 |
| Sam-I-Am | hence why we need to use another method, but it all comes down to a) deciding on one without too much bike shedding b) finding the resources to implement and maintain it | 15:58 |
| masteinhauser | yeah, that's the nice thing of a fully "3rd party" tool that works _within_ distros but not specifically from them. | 15:58 |
| masteinhauser | specifically to allow for the immaturity that comes with new projects, tools, etc. | 15:58 |
| Sam-I-Am | yeah. i'd love to see all projects that are 'operator ready' in the install guide. | 15:59 |
| Sam-I-Am | its that stupid dependency on packages | 15:59 |
| masteinhauser | yeah, I think that's a solid goal to achieve. Within real installs and validation that the thing works as it says it should. That is extremely useful for users and actually retaining new ones. | 16:00 |
| masteinhauser | and that dep is the main thing giftwrap solves out of the box. That was the immediate design goal of it. | 16:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | retaining new ones was the motivator behind making the install guide proactive instead of reactive | 16:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | it Needs To Work, not wait for people to get frustrated and file bugs. | 16:01 |
| masteinhauser | yeah, because diving into docs and installing it is hard; but this entire community thing is at least 10x more difficult | 16:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Andreas Scheuring proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Scenario guide for macvtap ml2 driver + agent https://review.openstack.org/280332 | 16:04 |
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| Sam-I-Am | masteinhauser: well, i'm open to a spec | 16:08 |
| Sam-I-Am | probably with some pseudo-instructions so i can figure out how to make it work | 16:09 |
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| masteinhauser | Sam-I-Am: yes, exactly what I was thinking. I need to figure it out how it all pieces together for myself, but I can reference our engineers to get up to speed quickly. | 16:19 |
| openstackgerrit | Alex O'Rourke proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Update HPE 3PAR minimum client version https://review.openstack.org/280796 | 16:20 |
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| openstackgerrit | Andreas Scheuring proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: Scenario guide for macvtap ml2 driver + agent https://review.openstack.org/280332 | 16:34 |
| openstackgerrit | Andreas Scheuring proposed openstack/openstack-manuals: ML2 section update for macvtap ml2 driver + agent https://review.openstack.org/280801 | 16:34 |
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| openstackgerrit | Anne Gentle proposed openstack/fairy-slipper: WIP: Modifies index pages for API reference to hold OpenStack header https://review.openstack.org/279657 | 16:39 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, would you mind looking at this patchset? https://review.openstack.org/280801 My gut feeling says that I placed my content in the wrong place | 16:41 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, but haven't found a better one so far... | 16:42 |
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| Sam-I-Am | scheuran: thats pretty close | 16:45 |
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| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, the chapter mechanism does not refer to the mech driver, but to the combination of mech driver and l2 agent, doesn't it? | 16:47 |
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| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, and the agent section is meant for all non-l2 agents | 16:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | scheuran: btw if you're wondering, the color scheme for diagrams is 'solarized' | 16:48 |
| Sam-I-Am | scheuran: at this point we just need content in there | 16:49 |
| Sam-I-Am | we can reorg it later | 16:49 |
| Sam-I-Am | once we get a better idea of whats being put in there | 16:49 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, ok - but configuration is not what should be shown here - as it's getting autogenerated now, right? | 16:51 |
| Sam-I-Am | yeah. right now i just want to discuss the different drivers/agents | 16:51 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, regarding the color scheme - I did the drawings with draw.io - haven't found that scheme there | 16:52 |
| Sam-I-Am | and we might (eventually) want to provide an overview of specific config sections | 16:52 |
| Sam-I-Am | scheuran: oh, not sure if you can import one there | 16:52 |
| Sam-I-Am | in other words... what stuff you'd generally find in the ml2_conf.ini file... and why it only needs to be on the same node as neutron-server | 16:52 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, ok, but that's mechanism independent I think | 16:54 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, one idea that I have is #1 characterize the default implementations (mech driver + agents) that are available like I did with macvtap | 16:55 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, #2 having a table which combo supports which network types | 16:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | makes semse | 16:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | sense | 16:56 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, #3 having a table which combos support which other agents | 16:56 |
| scheuran | like l3,... | 16:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | i'm pretty much game for anything useful at this point | 16:56 |
| Sam-I-Am | anything that gets contributions | 16:56 |
| scheuran | :D | 16:57 |
| Sam-I-Am | truth is, that content should have been built out a while ago | 16:57 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, that's always the problem with docs :) | 16:58 |
| Sam-I-Am | tell me about it | 16:58 |
| scheuran | and if you have something - it's outdated again... | 16:58 |
| Sam-I-Am | its hard to find contributors for original content too | 16:59 |
| scheuran | ok, so let me try to come up with something later this week | 16:59 |
| Sam-I-Am | the networking guide being a completely original book | 16:59 |
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| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, btw, what's your real name? Couldn't find someone when looking out for Sam-I-Am in gerrit... | 17:00 |
| Sam-I-Am | scheuran: matt kassawara | 17:01 |
| Sam-I-Am | i think its under mkassawara@ | 17:01 |
| scheuran | Sam-I-Am, that unveils the secret ;) | 17:03 |
| scheuran | cool | 17:03 |
| scheuran | one last thing - is there a bug to commit general network doc updates against? | 17:03 |
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| Sam-I-Am | there's a spec | 17:04 |
| Sam-I-Am | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+spec/networkguide-mitaka | 17:04 |
| Sam-I-Am | wel, bp | 17:04 |
| Sam-I-Am | you can probably tag that | 17:04 |
| scheuran | perfect, thanks! | 17:04 |
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| AJaeger | dencaval: could you please rebase the manila change? It has a merge conflict and thus does not build. | 17:57 |
| AJaeger | dencaval: We cannot merge it and we cannot review it properly if it does not build | 17:57 |
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| dencaval | AJaeger, hm, ok. | 18:43 |
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| AJaeger | annegentle: time for joining #openstack-meeting for infra meeting | 19:35 |
| AJaeger | ah, you're threre - great | 19:35 |
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| AJaeger | Great! | 19:35 |
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