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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance_store: Handle swift store's optional dependency https://review.openstack.org/209744 | 00:26 |
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| openstackgerrit | Kent Wang proposed openstack/glance: Allows OVA/OVF package upload to Glance https://review.openstack.org/214810 | 02:59 |
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| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/glance: Updated from global requirements https://review.openstack.org/224610 | 03:32 |
| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/glance_store: Updated from global requirements https://review.openstack.org/224611 | 03:32 |
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| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/python-glanceclient: Updated from global requirements https://review.openstack.org/224668 | 03:36 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance: Fixed non-owner write-access to artifacts https://review.openstack.org/218379 | 03:58 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance: Fixed an HTTP 500 on artifact blob upload https://review.openstack.org/216180 | 04:15 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance: Prevent extraneous log messages and stdout prints https://review.openstack.org/224787 | 04:16 |
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| openstackgerrit | Sabari proposed openstack/glance: Add config option for importing subflows https://review.openstack.org/194898 | 07:05 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance: Use dictionary literal for dictionary creation https://review.openstack.org/210303 | 07:32 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance: reuse the deleted image-member before create a new image-member https://review.openstack.org/190895 | 07:32 |
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| openstackgerrit | Alexander Tivelkov proposed openstack/glance: Fixed the output of list artifacts API calls https://review.openstack.org/214600 | 07:44 |
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| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/glance: Updated from global requirements https://review.openstack.org/224610 | 09:17 |
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| ekarlso | a/buf42 | 12:04 |
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| openstackgerrit | Kairat Kushaev proposed openstack/glance: Validate empty location value for v1 api https://review.openstack.org/226295 | 12:25 |
| openstackgerrit | Darja Shakhray proposed openstack/glance: Fix 500 status code when we add in "depend_on" yourself https://review.openstack.org/220587 | 12:26 |
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| bunting | flaper87: ping | 12:35 |
| flaper87 | bunting: pong | 12:36 |
| bunting | Hey, i was just wondering your thoughts https://review.openstack.org/#/c/209051/ on how we could go about solving this problem | 12:38 |
| bunting | (not requiring the user to upload the whole image, before it tells them it has failed) | 12:38 |
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| openstackgerrit | Kairat Kushaev proposed openstack/python-glanceclient: Replace exception_to_str with oslo.utils function https://review.openstack.org/226303 | 12:41 |
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| openstackgerrit | Darja Shakhray proposed openstack/glance: Fix 500 error when we specify invalid headers when work with blob/bloblist https://review.openstack.org/221056 | 12:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | Nikhil Komawar proposed openstack/glance: Fix for Image members not generating notifications https://review.openstack.org/221307 | 13:35 |
| openstackgerrit | Lakshmi N Sampath proposed openstack/glance: Fix for Image members not generating notifications https://review.openstack.org/221307 | 13:36 |
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| openstackgerrit | Darja Shakhray proposed openstack/glance: Fix glance ignored a headers when created artifact https://review.openstack.org/220476 | 13:55 |
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| nikhil | Courtesy Glance Drivers' meeting reminder: nikhil_k, flaper87, sigmavirus24, rosmaita | 14:01 |
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| openstackgerrit | Flavio Percoco proposed openstack/glance: Prevent image status being directly modified via v1 https://review.openstack.org/226336 | 14:09 |
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| nikhil | o/ | 14:31 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 14:31 |
| rosmaita | o/ | 14:31 |
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| rosmaita | dhellmann: we really did think through a lot of this already | 14:31 |
| rosmaita | i guess the key mistake was no API WG yet | 14:31 |
| rosmaita | pre def core | 14:31 |
| rosmaita | and making the 'input' element a blob | 14:31 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 14:31 |
| dhellmann | rosmaita: yes! I hope I haven't given the impression that I think otherwise. I really do think the issue is communication, into and out of the team, rather than with the work per se. | 14:32 |
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| rosmaita | dhellmann: cool | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | having a clear spec, describing the use cases and which API(s) meet each of the requirements, would be a good first step at communicating out of the team | 14:32 |
| nikhil | agreed | 14:32 |
| nikhil | consolidation of the use cases too bar communication | 14:32 |
| dhellmann | and, as you say, there are some requirements that are new since the work started, and those may require changes/additions | 14:32 |
| rosmaita | and i have been thinking about the question you posed about why the 'input' must differ from deployment to deployment | 14:32 |
| rosmaita | dhellmann: ^ | 14:33 |
| rosmaita | and i am not sure i have a completely convincing answer | 14:33 |
| nikhil | dhellmann I echoed your words, thanks for stating that explicitly | 14:33 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: ++ | 14:33 |
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| nikhil | one thing that might be relevant is | 14:34 |
| dhellmann | rosmaita: I can certainly understand why allowing the inputs to be different can make some things simpler for implementation, and even deployment. | 14:34 |
| nikhil | if we are planning to support federation of clouds | 14:34 |
| dhellmann | rosmaita: it's less great for the cloud user, though :-) | 14:34 |
| rosmaita | dhellmann: i guess we were counting on excellent tooling | 14:34 |
| nikhil | then the details of the image may change per sub-domain in the federation | 14:34 |
| nikhil | dhellmann one question, I am bound to ask is | 14:35 |
| dhellmann | rosmaita: yes, I think defcore pushes the "usability boundary" back inside the project a bit | 14:35 |
| rosmaita | i think the primary consideration is that glance must be rock-solid in working with nova | 14:35 |
| nikhil | how to we define interoperability and communicate to the users | 14:35 |
| flaper87 | rosmaita: nikhil dhellmann I wrote down, on the etherpad, some requirements earlier today and I see mordred is adding more there. Would it be ok for you to keep collecting things there until there's enough to go to a spec? | 14:35 |
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| flaper87 | I'm happy to remove the rest of the contents from that etherpad | 14:35 |
| flaper87 | it's not really relevant | 14:35 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: as with flavors, I don't think you need the images in 2 clouds to be exactly the same as long as it is possible for a user to find the image they want/need | 14:36 |
| nikhil | dhellmann yeah, and the input element in the task provides a way for the user to define the specifications of that image | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: that said, you're thinking along the right lines -- how can the glance API make it easy for a user of one cloud to put some of their workload in a federated cloud if that workload relies on a specific image (specific in terms of its contents, not UUID or name) | 14:37 |
| nikhil | like whether they choose not to have a pre-specified image format, container format etc | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | flaper87: an etherpad is a good way to brainstorm | 14:37 |
| nikhil | exactly dhellmann | 14:37 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: cool, so we just need to standardize the "input" elements so that the user can (a) know what values can be passed and (b) pass the same values to 2 clouds and get the expected results | 14:38 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: I'm not sure why the user should care about image format once an image is in glance. Is that something they have to choose? | 14:39 |
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| nikhil | dhellmann I think that can be done as we have been debating on when the input validation needs to happen. I guess the next step is to find the use cases that are okay with such validation of that parm at the API level with correct BadRequest message back to users for consistent for each cloud. | 14:39 |
| nikhil | dhellmann the import of an image can provide a way to convert that image into a specified format | 14:40 |
| nikhil | conversion bit needs that in the input element | 14:40 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: is it possible to separate the discussion of how images get into the cloud and how an image of the right format is selected to deploy to create a given instance? because ultimately it would be nice if the user didn't have to care about format at either of those points, and there are many ways to make that happen | 14:40 |
| nikhil | I guess the discoverability needs to have the series of operations that need to/will happen on image when imported | 14:40 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance: Fixed the output of list artifacts API calls https://review.openstack.org/214600 | 14:41 |
| flaper87 | I'm still not fully convinced the tasks API is what we want to use for such an essential piece of Glance. The current task implementation doens't resolve the issue of the user being able to upload the image to glance | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | and I don't think image conversion needs to be part of the create API spec, since it can happen transparently | 14:41 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance: Remove duplicate name attribute https://review.openstack.org/210299 | 14:41 |
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| flaper87 | I think we should first think how the image bits are going to get into the cloud | 14:41 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: why does the user care about what is going to happen to the image after they import it? | 14:41 |
| flaper87 | We have a way to do that and we can't change it just like that because that would break backwards compatibilty | 14:41 |
| nikhil | dhellmann that was one of my main concern if we need to standardize the API then we should open a standarsize task vs. making import standardized -- one that has less of such customizations | 14:42 |
| flaper87 | On the other hand, we also want people to moe to the new way without breaking apps developed using the old way | 14:42 |
| flaper87 | Therefore these 2 need to be consistent somehow | 14:42 |
| dhellmann | flaper87, nikhil: you should think about this as though there is no existing API to figure out the requirements and what a good API would look like. Then as a second step, figure out how far the current API is from that ideal. | 14:42 |
| flaper87 | dhellmann: exactly! | 14:42 |
| openstackgerrit | Stuart McLaren proposed openstack/glance: Prevent image status being directly modified via v1 https://review.openstack.org/226355 | 14:42 |
| nikhil | dhellmann if the operator chooses to support multiple type of virtualization and user wants to select one of those, then the image format helps | 14:43 |
| dhellmann | because both existing APIs definitely have issues, and while we can't drop them we don't want to lock ourselves into keeping them around forever | 14:43 |
| nikhil | dhellmann but if that use case is still in demand from the SuperUser would be my next question | 14:43 |
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| dhellmann | nikhil: I should be able to upload an image of any format one time and then deploy it to any hypervisor transparently without having to know any of those details. I shouldn't have to tell the cloud how it is deployed. | 14:43 |
| nikhil | dhellmann agreed, both have issues | 14:43 |
| nikhil | dhellmann but a cloud may choose to bill you differently based on the format of the image | 14:44 |
| nikhil | and that format could affect the performance of the virt | 14:44 |
| nikhil | the choise won't be on scheduling | 14:44 |
| nikhil | but at the level of deciding what's most value for money for booting my instance | 14:44 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: "may choose to" or "does actually choose to"? | 14:45 |
| nikhil | dhellmann may choose to | 14:45 |
| dhellmann | because it's terrible from a usability standpoint to make a user think about that at any point other than when they are making an instance | 14:45 |
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| dhellmann | ok, I posit that no one would ever actually charge me differently to store a raw image or an OVA image except that one might be a different size than the other, but they *would* charge me differently to run on a server where a raw image is required or a VM where an OVA image is required | 14:46 |
| nikhil | dhellmann I am not sure how we can/should expose this to users . the dashboard could hide such details from them | 14:46 |
| nikhil | again, the is the exact reason I want it to be a non-defcore API | 14:46 |
| rosmaita | i see mclaren has arrived on flaper87's etherpad | 14:47 |
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| nikhil | dhellmann in a hybird cloud setting this may be actually req | 14:47 |
| flaper87 | rosmaita: :P | 14:47 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: I should not have to upload an image twice to support a hybrid cloud. | 14:47 |
| nikhil | say pub cloud support virt of type A and private support virt of type B | 14:47 |
| nikhil | dhellmann so, would you expect a behind the scenes image conversion and record creation for this use case? | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: yes | 14:48 |
| rosmaita | so that adds to boot time | 14:48 |
| nikhil | that breakes the immutability clause of the images | 14:48 |
| nikhil | breaks* | 14:48 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: perhaps "an image" should have a 1:N relationship with "the place where image contents are stored" and that place has a format | 14:48 |
| nikhil | the image format, container format, size, metadata on the image can vary in that case | 14:49 |
| nikhil | and those are immutable attrs | 14:49 |
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| dhellmann | what metadata other than the formats would change? | 14:49 |
| nikhil | also, is the user has digital signon the image then that would fail miserably | 14:49 |
| nikhil | if* | 14:50 |
| nikhil | dhellmann say virtual size | 14:50 |
| rosmaita | dhellmann: this was a use case for artifacts, and artifact could "point to" multiple images that would otherwise be singular | 14:50 |
| nikhil | EXACTLY! Thank you rosmaita ! | 14:51 |
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| dhellmann | ok. I think your mental model of what an image is differs from the mental model of users of the cloud. | 14:51 |
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| rosmaita | dhellmann: very possibly | 14:52 |
| dhellmann | there are clearly some existing requirements I don't understand, so having those documented together with the new ones will help me continue the discussion | 14:52 |
| mordred | nikhil: I agree with dhellmann | 14:52 |
| nikhil | sure | 14:52 |
| mordred | "may choose to bill you differently based on the format of the image" makes no sense to me as an end user | 14:52 |
| mordred | as an end user, an image is a bundle of a filesystem, and if a cloud wants it in a different format, I'd like for them to do that magically without me knowing | 14:53 |
| dhellmann | right | 14:53 |
| nikhil | and that for image model is creating a new image | 14:53 |
| mordred | I conver images to vhd for rackspace not because I've made a decisoin bout format, but because I have no choice | 14:53 |
| nikhil | what image conversion can do for you | 14:53 |
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| dhellmann | nikhil: right, so it's limited today, and that's fine. Let's design an API that allows us to remove that limitation in the future. | 14:54 |
| mordred | ++ | 14:54 |
| nikhil | mordred sure, and not all virtualization standards will support all image formats | 14:54 |
| dhellmann | whether that is the artifacts API or something else, I don't know | 14:54 |
| mordred | if I uploaded a qcow2 image and the image was converted to vhd as it was stored | 14:54 |
| nikhil | dhellmann sure | 14:55 |
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| mordred | I would not, as a user, consider that my image had been modified | 14:55 |
| flaper87 | mordred: ++ | 14:55 |
| rosmaita | mordred: but some users care about that a lot | 14:55 |
| nikhil | mordred well, it really depends on the user | 14:55 |
| mordred | really? | 14:55 |
| rosmaita | CERN cares a lot | 14:55 |
| nikhil | for a user who care about the immutability of image data it matters | 14:55 |
| mordred | why? | 14:55 |
| nikhil | so do other research labs | 14:55 |
| rosmaita | all the image sig stuff indicates that people care | 14:55 |
| jokke_ | mordred: how do you verify that as your own tools and your cloud tools provide you different checksum on that image? | 14:56 |
| nikhil | yep | 14:56 |
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| dhellmann | jokke_: by looking at the contents of the image in a format-independent way | 14:56 |
| mordred | can you explain what it is that they care about? | 14:56 |
| nikhil | dhellmann and that will slow down boot times | 14:56 |
| dhellmann | I can make a tarball and a zipfile of the same directories and get a different checksum, but the contents are the same | 14:56 |
| mordred | dhellmann: ++ | 14:56 |
| nikhil | the question is who verifies that | 14:57 |
| rosmaita | mordred: with CERN they need to know that the distributed computations are done by identical systems with absolutely no differences | 14:57 |
| nikhil | I doubt if nova would like to do that at the pre-boot process | 14:57 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: then maybe it shouldn't be done at boot time. Maybe I should be able to sign an image myself, to know that the checksum of the format it's being kept in has not manipulated the contents | 14:57 |
| mordred | ok. so - let me make a suggestion | 14:57 |
| flaper87 | (folks, I'm sorry but I have to step out, I'll read the logs and the etherpad) | 14:57 |
| mordred | the cloud should be able to tell me what image formats I can upload an image in | 14:57 |
| rosmaita | mordred: that i agree with entirely | 14:58 |
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| jokke_ | mordred: that I do agree | 14:58 |
| dhellmann | there you go, if the cloud is going to convert to some format and I can upload in that format then I can do the checksum myself | 14:58 |
| mordred | it should also tell me what image format it prefers | 14:58 |
| rosmaita | we have left that to documentation | 14:58 |
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| mordred | and it should let me upload an image and say "please convert this to the right format for me" | 14:58 |
| mordred | or to upload it in the preferred format myself | 14:58 |
| mordred | yeah? | 14:58 |
| dhellmann | so users who don't care about signatures can choose any format and users who do care can chose the default format | 14:58 |
| dhellmann | mordred: ++ | 14:58 |
| mordred | yup | 14:58 |
| mordred | because _I_ would love to not have to run a patched version of vhd-util in my image create process. BUT - it makes total sense from what you say that other people may prefer to do that rather than have their cloud modify their upload | 14:59 |
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| dhellmann | right, so that's a new API endpoint to get the list of supported image formats, possibly with details like links to documentation for them, and some indication of which is the preferred for a given region, zone, flavor, etc. | 15:00 |
| mordred | and I'd like to argue for making is simple for all clouds ot accept qcow2 as a format that they will have an opt-in convert-from thing for, but I don't need to die on a hill for it | 15:01 |
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| jokke_ | The preferred format would also make sense when we go to signed or encrypted images. If the user wants to make sure their image does not change between upload and boot, they should have clear indication in what format they are expected to have the image | 15:01 |
| mordred | (this is largely because qcow2 is ubiquitous in terms of making and also smaller than the other formats so there's less network transit) | 15:01 |
| mordred | jokke_: ++ | 15:01 |
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| dhellmann | is someone capturing this in the etherpad? | 15:02 |
| jokke_ | if not, this channel is logged | 15:02 |
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| dhellmann | jokke_: well, yeah, but we're putting stuff in this etherpad so it's in one place | 15:02 |
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| dhellmann | I didn't want to duplicate it and I haven't been following the editing | 15:02 |
| mordred | for context - the ubuntu-trusty image that infra uploads as the base for devstack jobs is 5.8G in qcow2 and 16G in both raw and VHD format | 15:03 |
| * nikhil back after irc troubles... | 15:03 | |
| rosmaita | mordred: what's the compression method with acow2 ? | 15:03 |
| mordred | when you combine that with 4 different base images and the fact that we upload daily, the difference in size is non-trivial | 15:03 |
| mordred | rosmaita: I have no idea. it's just whatever spits out of qemu-img | 15:04 |
| rosmaita | ok | 15:04 |
| rosmaita | so OVA would be good, but glance currently isn't architected to handle it (too dangerous) | 15:05 |
| rosmaita | all the tgz attacks | 15:05 |
| mordred | nod | 15:05 |
| jokke_ | dhellmann: my point was if no-one is capturing this real time it's not gonna be lost | 15:05 |
| nikhil | so, I think for a case where we have standard format for an image and then there are versioned formats for that image say qcow2 , vhd, etc | 15:05 |
| mordred | I mean, end of the day, if the format everythin accepted was RAW - it would still be an improvement because I wouldn't have 3 different copies :) | 15:05 |
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| dhellmann | jokke_: ok | 15:06 |
| nikhil | mordred right and in that case, it makes sense to version that image | 15:06 |
| mordred | nikhil: I'm not sure I follow the concept of versioning an image? | 15:06 |
| nikhil | my image foo has version foo-qcow2 (Standard), foo-vhd (version 2), foo-raw(version 3) ... | 15:06 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: as a user, I do not care about those differences once the image is in the cloud | 15:07 |
| jokke_ | rosmaita: qcow2 uses zlib for compression | 15:07 |
| nikhil | sure, but if we decide on a single standard format of an image | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: we are not doing that, though | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | we're saying that a *given* cloud might have a *default* | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | and that should be discoverable, specifically to handle the signed image use case | 15:08 |
| jokke_ | ++ | 15:08 |
| dhellmann | but that it should not be *required* for folks who don't care about signed images | 15:08 |
| nikhil | so, for a federated cloud that can't be consitent for priv and public | 15:08 |
| rosmaita | jokke_: ty | 15:09 |
| mordred | well. I'm arguing for a single format that all clouds would accept as an input into the "convert it for me" case | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: it will not be the same, but because it is discoverable in a consistent way tools can deal with it | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | mordred: oh, I just thought we'd want any-to-any conversion | 15:09 |
| mordred | which is "here is an image, I do not care what you do with it, I just want its contents there where I boot it" | 15:09 |
| mordred | dhellmann: I DO want that | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | but sure, if we want to set a minimum for that, that's a good start | 15:09 |
| nikhil | mordred yep, so I was saying that everyone needs to upload into this standard raw format | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: no! | 15:09 |
| mordred | nikhil: but I thnk that's a hardship for the CERN case | 15:09 |
| nikhil | and version that image to an acceptable format of your deployment | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | the cloud must support upload and conversion in that format, but users must not be required to use that format | 15:10 |
| mordred | dhellmann: right | 15:10 |
| nikhil | the clouds would use what's suitable for the HV | 15:10 |
| mordred | it's a convenience baseline that people should alwyas be able to count on, even if it's inefficient | 15:10 |
| nikhil | dhellmann So, you are saying that we do not enforce this for the image-signing? | 15:10 |
| mordred | yes | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: if the upload process gives me a UUID as an identifier for the image I am creating, then I need to be able to use *that* UUID when booting an instance, not a different UUID for the "right version" of an image | 15:10 |
| rosmaita | so ... if you try to import a windows image to AWS, they install some licensing stuff on it ... do we foresee anything like that happening in an openstack deployment? | 15:11 |
| mordred | rosmaita: wouldn't it be friendlier to have the cloud expose licensing stuff into config-drive and let windows-cloud-init consume it? | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: "be liberal in what you accept" -- allow the user to upload in (a) a least-common-denominator format (b) the preferred format for a given cloud (c) any other format -- and for cases where (a) and (c) do not match (b) the cloud should convert for me | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | where the any-to-any conversion required by (c) can be done in a later cycle | 15:12 |
| mordred | by that I mean, I _never_ want the cloud to modify my content (which is why file injection was such a bad idea) | 15:12 |
| dhellmann | actually, all of this image conversion can be done later, but... | 15:12 |
| nikhil | but that simply breaks the immutabiliy clause | 15:12 |
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| dhellmann | nikhil: option (b) gives you immutability | 15:12 |
| nikhil | yes | 15:13 |
| rosmaita | mordred: i kind of agree, but we also want things to "just work" for users | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: many of your users care far far less about your definition of immutability, and will happily use (a) and (c) | 15:13 |
| mordred | rosmaita: indeed. I have less of a person background in windows images | 15:13 |
| mordred | rosmaita: so I don't have a good pov on which thing is better/worse | 15:13 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: so now you're giving your users a choice between convenience [(a) and (c)] and hard-line immutability (b) | 15:13 |
| nikhil | so, that the tradeoff we need to hit | 15:13 |
| mordred | rosmaita: I just know that in linux file injection makes things break | 15:13 |
| mordred | rosmaita: because my cloud will helpfuly overwrite things my config management system has put there :) | 15:14 |
| dhellmann | I propose that we concentrate on (b) for this cycle, with an eye on making sure we don't make it impossible to have (a) | 15:14 |
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| mordred | and "injectinting some license stuff" reminds me of that - but I'm not sure what's the norm in windows admin land | 15:14 |
| rosmaita | dhellmann: that sounds reasonable | 15:14 |
| mordred | rosmaita: you know ... | 15:14 |
| rosmaita | mordred: i'm not completely sure either | 15:14 |
| dhellmann | mordred: do you agree with deferring image conversion for now? | 15:15 |
| nikhil | dhellmann does it matter what our SuperUsers want? It would be nice to get some feedback from users on that immutability clause. number of users vs. strong adopters | 15:15 |
| mordred | dhellmann: do you mean deferring the decision? | 15:15 |
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| dhellmann | mordred: no, deferring supporting that as a feature as long as the API doesn't preclude it | 15:15 |
| mordred | dhellmann: yes. I agre with b | 15:16 |
| rosmaita | i think end-users don't care about immutability until they realize that it's important | 15:16 |
| rosmaita | anyway, b sounds reasonable to me, too | 15:16 |
| nikhil | yeah | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: I think we're talking past each other. I have described how we can support immutability if that is what the user wants, and convenience if that is what they want. | 15:16 |
| mordred | yah. also - for different things | 15:16 |
| rosmaita | ok, next question is the actual upload | 15:16 |
| mordred | I do not care about immutability for nodepool images at all - I would care more about immutable/signed images if I uploaded base images for our control plane | 15:16 |
| dhellmann | right, so it's an image-by-image concern rather than all or nothing | 15:17 |
| nikhil | agreed | 15:17 |
| mordred | (although to be clear - I think we should break immutability into two facets - immutability of content and immuntability of form) | 15:17 |
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| dhellmann | mordred: yes, different levels of guarantee makes sense | 15:17 |
| rosmaita | mordred: that's conceptually clear, but can it be done in practice? | 15:18 |
| mordred | I care about immutability of content everywhere, (no file injection) but I recognize it's hard to trust a cloud-provided guarantee of that if I have allowed the cloud to mutate form | 15:18 |
| nikhil | and should it be done in glance too is my question | 15:18 |
| mordred | rosmaita: no. it's not provable in practice | 15:18 |
| rosmaita | exactly | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | nikhil: I'm not sure what you mean? | 15:18 |
| mordred | rosmaita: but - if I cannot trust my cloud to not lie to me | 15:18 |
| mordred | rosmaita: then I'm screwed | 15:18 |
| mordred | rosmaita: becauseyou could store my checksum when I upload and then boot something else without telling me | 15:19 |
| rosmaita | well, not really | 15:19 |
| rosmaita | there is a workaround | 15:19 |
| nikhil | I know for large scale boot processed non-immutability (mutating image behind download transactions) can be very dangerous and result into waste of cloud resources | 15:19 |
| mordred | rosmaita: my cloud provider has root access to the machines my vms are running on | 15:19 |
| nikhil | processe* | 15:19 |
| mordred | at a certain point, I have to trust them somewhat | 15:19 |
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| nikhil | dhellmann I was asking about the faceting of immutability concerns ... | 15:20 |
| mordred | nikhil: sorry | 15:20 |
| mordred | nikhil: I was mainly mentoining that in terms of our conversations about the topic | 15:21 |
| mordred | not in terms of a concept that should be exposed pe se | 15:21 |
| mordred | per se | 15:21 |
| nikhil | Ah I see :) | 15:21 |
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| * nikhil is listening | 15:21 | |
| mclaren | just lurking :-) | 15:21 |
| openstackgerrit | Lakshmi N Sampath proposed openstack/glance: Fix for Image members not generating notifications https://review.openstack.org/221307 | 15:21 |
| dhellmann | this has been a really good conversation, but unfortunately I have to go to a meeting and then do some release things | 15:21 |
| * nikhil iswith some n/w lag now... | 15:22 | |
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| dhellmann | nikhil, rosmaita, flaper87, jokke_, mordred : thanks, I think we're all starting to understand the multiple perspectives better as a result of talking today | 15:22 |
| nikhil | mordred yeah, that makes sense. And Artifacts is what I think is the solution to this problem | 15:22 |
| mordred | dhellmann: ++ | 15:22 |
| rosmaita | dhellmann: cool, next thing we need to settle is the upload parameters | 15:22 |
| rosmaita | i mean what is acceptable | 15:23 |
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| mordred | rosmaita: ++ | 15:23 |
| nikhil | and it's another big conversation topic | 15:23 |
| nikhil | dhellmann ++ | 15:23 |
| mclaren | missed the party, sorry | 15:23 |
| rosmaita | mclaren: cheers | 15:23 |
| nikhil | rosmaita I think that would depend on the winning use cases afait | 15:24 |
| mordred | mclaren: I'm sure there will be more parties | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | mclaren: the scrollback is worth a read-through | 15:24 |
| mclaren | sure | 15:24 |
| rosmaita | mclaren: conversations started in this channel at 15:00 UTC | 15:24 |
| mclaren | ack | 15:24 |
| nikhil | To me the puzzle seems to be of two main divisions -- 1. Number of users who do not care about certain clauses viz. immutability, upload mechanism etc 2. SuperUsers who has certain specific requirements to each ofthose. Would be good to settle in on such. | 15:25 |
| nikhil | have* | 15:25 |
| nikhil | mclaren there's some more from driver's meeting | 15:26 |
| mclaren | nikhil: ok, plenty of bedtime reading | 15:26 |
| mordred | nikhil: agree. the balance between meeting the needs of the people who do care and not burdening the people who do not care is key | 15:26 |
| nikhil | mordred well put! cloud be today's status :-) | 15:27 |
| nikhil | ha | 15:27 |
| nikhil | I meant could be | 15:27 |
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| * nikhil running to wind up Liberty ... | 15:27 | |
| * nikhil thanks all for the sync | 15:28 | |
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| openstackgerrit | Lakshmi N Sampath proposed openstack/glance: Fix for Image members not generating notifications https://review.openstack.org/221307 | 17:55 |
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| openstackgerrit | Venkatesh Sampath proposed openstack/glance: Fix server start ping timeout for functional tests https://review.openstack.org/225391 | 18:23 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/glance: Prevent image status being directly modified via v1 https://review.openstack.org/226336 | 18:34 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 18:36 |
| flaper87 | hey folks, sorry for stepping out earlier. Did I miss all the fun? | 18:36 |
| sabari | flaper87 Looks like the party's over :) | 18:38 |
| flaper87 | sabari: :( sad panda | 18:38 |
| sabari | haha | 18:39 |
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| openstackgerrit | Giridhar Jayavelu proposed openstack/glance_store: VMware: Fix missing space in error message https://review.openstack.org/226506 | 19:04 |
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| openstackgerrit | Lakshmi N Sampath proposed openstack/glance: Fix for Image members not generating notifications https://review.openstack.org/221307 | 19:09 |
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| sabari | what's the reason to still have the sample conf s in the source? nikhil jokke_ | 23:42 |
| sabari | I keep forgetting - I knew there was some reason for it. | 23:42 |
| nikhil | i think devstack uses it | 23:42 |
| nikhil | also may be other small deployments | 23:43 |
| sabari | ah thanks Nikhi ! | 23:43 |
| sabari | though not sure if I understand the small deployments case. | 23:44 |
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