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| beekhof_mb | asettle: ping? is today a good time? | 09:39 |
|---|---|---|
| asettle | beekhof_mb: heyo! | 09:44 |
| asettle | Yep :) | 09:44 |
| asettle | Brb two seconds, just going to run off and grab some water and then I'm all yours. Wanna jump on a hangout or shall we just message? | 09:44 |
| beekhof_mb | i'll be honest, red tape is really not my thing. my brain starts to shut down when people say the words spec and blueprint | 09:44 |
| beekhof_mb | lets see how irc goes | 09:45 |
| asettle | Hahahaha in all honesty, it takes about 15 minutes if you're just jotting down things. We have a template ;) | 09:46 |
| asettle | Give me five, and i'll get it all up | 09:46 |
| asettle | Okay beekhof_mb let's give it a name | 09:47 |
| beekhof_mb | i got nothin :) | 09:48 |
| asettle | Amazing ;) | 09:48 |
| asettle | Haha okay, so are we going for like | 09:48 |
| beekhof_mb | "make it better" | 09:48 |
| asettle | A revamp, restructure, Improvement | 09:48 |
| asettle | ... improvement it is ;) | 09:48 |
| asettle | Alright, best options is to start out with a bit of a 'why' are we doing this | 09:49 |
| asettle | Give me your best (and i'll add my thoughts too as we go) | 09:49 |
| asettle | If aspiers is around, feel free to join in with thoughts | 09:49 |
| aspiers | I might be able to join | 09:50 |
| asettle | Cheers aspiers :) | 09:50 |
| beekhof_mb | the existing one isnt finished, is out of date wrt. current best practices and includes unnecessary info | 09:51 |
| asettle | Sweet | 09:52 |
| beekhof_mb | !finished == lots of todos as you notices | 09:52 |
| openstack | beekhof_mb: Error: "finished" is not a valid command. | 09:52 |
| beekhof_mb | !finished == lots of todos as you noticed | 09:52 |
| openstack | beekhof_mb: Error: "finished" is not a valid command. | 09:52 |
| beekhof_mb | wha? | 09:52 |
| asettle | WOW I DID NOT KNOW IT DID THAT | 09:52 |
| aspiers | :) | 09:52 |
| asettle | Anyway, works for me. | 09:52 |
| asettle | Let's move on, proposed change - hit me beekhof_mb | 09:52 |
| beekhof_mb | rework my github doc into guide form :) | 09:53 |
| asettle | HAHA detailed description as per email, please :p | 09:53 |
| beekhof_mb | focus on non-active/active services that underpin OS | 09:53 |
| aspiers | are we doing this in an etherpad? | 09:53 |
| aspiers | if not I think it would make sense to | 09:53 |
| aspiers | open to better ideas though | 09:53 |
| asettle | aspiers: I'm currently writing the spec as we speak. But good suggestion, let me transfer the template into a etherpad for typing | 09:53 |
| asettle | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ha-guide-spec | 09:54 |
| beekhof_mb | eg. database, messaging | 09:54 |
| aspiers | thanks | 09:54 |
| asettle | No problem | 09:54 |
| beekhof_mb | secondary goal, annoy aspiers | 09:54 |
| beekhof_mb | take out all the bits he likes | 09:54 |
| aspiers | goal unlocked, congratulations! | 09:54 |
| beekhof_mb | :) | 09:55 |
| asettle | *head desk* | 09:55 |
| aspiers | ;) | 09:55 |
| asettle | "work on the HA guide, they said" | 09:55 |
| beekhof_mb | other info we need to add/keep | 09:55 |
| aspiers | haha | 09:55 |
| beekhof_mb | - monitoring | 09:55 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: can yo relink me to your github thingo? | 09:55 |
| beekhof_mb | - how to add things to a cluster manager if thats your thing | 09:55 |
| beekhof_mb | https://github.com/beekhof/osp-ha-deploy/blob/master/ha-openstack.md | 09:55 |
| asettle | Are you guys watching this as I type to ensure it's accurate? | 09:59 |
| aspiers | trying to | 10:00 |
| beekhof_mb | sort of, also watching tv with my wife :) | 10:00 |
| asettle | How very dare you have a life :P | 10:00 |
| beekhof_mb | sorry :) | 10:00 |
| asettle | Hahaha don't be | 10:01 |
| asettle | Just ensure that the content I'm writing is correct | 10:01 |
| aspiers | beekhof_mb: so you're proposing a rip-and-replace? I don't think I like that | 10:01 |
| aspiers | especially if the replacement is based entirely on Red Hat stuff | 10:02 |
| beekhof_mb | god no | 10:02 |
| aspiers | oh ok | 10:02 |
| aspiers | so maybe line 24 should be reworded | 10:02 |
| beekhof_mb | for the core bits, i see two sections | 10:02 |
| asettle | Yeah, so, my concern about using this github doc as a basis is that people will push back on the idea of it being based on a Red Hat specific doc | 10:02 |
| beekhof_mb | 1. discussion of what needs to happen | 10:02 |
| asettle | aspiers: please go ahead and edit | 10:02 |
| beekhof_mb | 2. here's some commands | 10:02 |
| beekhof_mb | i have no issue if the 2nd section has both a crmsh and a pcs version | 10:03 |
| beekhof_mb | 2. here's some commands [that implement it] | 10:03 |
| aspiers | I'm fine with that too (although I still don't understand why pcs exists) | 10:03 |
| beekhof_mb | oh god, not this again | 10:04 |
| aspiers | well I arrived in the HA world late and never heard an explanation | 10:04 |
| beekhof_mb | you should have asked me at dinner in barcelona | 10:04 |
| aspiers | so in my ignorance of the history all I know is that it looks like it's doing the same thing as crm | 10:04 |
| beekhof_mb | some other night | 10:04 |
| aspiers | hah ok, next time then | 10:04 |
| beekhof_mb | the crmsh arch imposes certain limitations that not everyone agreed to | 10:05 |
| * aspiers opens the HA guide | 10:06 | |
| asettle | Okayyyyy soooooo *points to spec* | 10:06 |
| beekhof_mb | looks good. ship it! | 10:06 |
| asettle | Hahahhaa that's all? Even with line 24? | 10:06 |
| aspiers | I'm wondering if a simpler way of handling this would be to file bugs for the issues with the current guide | 10:07 |
| asettle | Now, before I ship this beekhof_mb I guess I have to ensure that as the team lead for the HA guide you're dedicated to make this happen? I'm cool writing the spec, but this will land on your plate afterwards :) | 10:07 |
| aspiers | seems more incremental than thinking of it as a rewrite | 10:07 |
| asettle | aspiers: pretty much already done, but bugs are ignored. Heavily. | 10:07 |
| asettle | https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bugs?field.tag=ha-guide | 10:07 |
| aspiers | ah right | 10:07 |
| aspiers | well maybe that's the problem we need to tackle then :) | 10:08 |
| asettle | A spec tends to get more attention with docs, and it gives people a 'project' to concentrate on, which, oddly works very well for docs. | 10:08 |
| beekhof_mb | yeah, i can make it happen | 10:08 |
| aspiers | I see | 10:08 |
| aspiers | ok, well I'm definitely not objecting to a spec | 10:08 |
| asettle | aspiers: so, that was my intention at first. So I will be writing an inclusion in the spec to ensure taht these bugs are triaged and covered. I think it's a top priority that someone goes through this list and decides if they're still relevant or not before we go and work on the guide. | 10:08 |
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| asettle | And implement beekhof_mb 's plan. | 10:09 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: cheers :) | 10:09 |
| aspiers | ok | 10:10 |
| beekhof_mb | i was going to start today, but then i read we had to do a spec | 10:10 |
| aspiers | haha | 10:10 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: sorry dude :P | 10:10 |
| aspiers | I really want to help with this but this week is pretty much the worst week possible to start thinking about it | 10:10 |
| aspiers | am in firefighting mode right now | 10:10 |
| beekhof_mb | i have one week before i'm done for the year too | 10:10 |
| asettle | Nein problemo, this will be up for a little while while people look and check if they are happy with the proposal. | 10:10 |
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| asettle | That's okay, this doesn't have to be Ocata. | 10:10 |
| asettle | But I will propose the spec for Ocata. Work can begin in the new year. | 10:11 |
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| beekhof_mb | ok | 10:11 |
| beekhof_mb | aspiers: i guess "based on my doc" was supposed to mean the knowledge in said doc. not the exact commands | 10:11 |
| beekhof_mb | that make you feel better? | 10:11 |
| asettle | I'll add a caveat for that | 10:12 |
| aspiers | beekhof_mb: yes, thanks | 10:12 |
| beekhof_mb | the less we have about specific implementations... the easier this is going to be to maintain | 10:12 |
| aspiers | beekhof_mb: e.g. if we have nothing about implementations, we have nothing to maintain? ;-) | 10:13 |
| aspiers | SCNR | 10:13 |
| beekhof_mb | cat /dev/null > ha-guide.txt | 10:13 |
| aspiers | boom, *done*! | 10:13 |
| * aspiers resolves all the bugs | 10:14 | |
| beekhof_mb | zarro boogs | 10:14 |
| aspiers | I have the feeling we are not being very helpful to asettle | 10:14 |
| asettle | ;) | 10:14 |
| asettle | Lucky I'm super good at making things up as I go along. | 10:14 |
| beekhof_mb | but in general... ditch all the "this is how you install package X" stuff | 10:15 |
| beekhof_mb | if you dont know that, our guide isn't going to help much anyway | 10:15 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: you might want to look at how I'm writing the 'work items' - this is how I believe the guide should be worked on, but since it's your guide, you may very well disagree. | 10:15 |
| aspiers | work items looks good | 10:15 |
| aspiers | lines 22-28 not so much | 10:16 |
| asettle | aspiers: yes I really don't know what to do here | 10:16 |
| asettle | I need the two of you to write this | 10:16 |
| aspiers | can one of you change etherpad colour | 10:16 |
| aspiers | ? | 10:16 |
| aspiers | ok | 10:16 |
| asettle | This is something I cannot include | 10:16 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: yo homie, switch yo colour | 10:16 |
| asettle | Nvm | 10:17 |
| aspiers | thanks | 10:17 |
| asettle | Jesus I'm blind now | 10:17 |
| aspiers | haha | 10:17 |
| aspiers | argh my eyes | 10:17 |
| beekhof_mb | i was getting to that | 10:17 |
| aspiers | etherpad colour palette is awful | 10:17 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: Wthat is not a colour hahahah | 10:17 |
| asettle | It really fucking is | 10:17 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: could you worderise what you just said properly? :) | 10:17 |
| asettle | "properly" don't I sound like a school matron. | 10:18 |
| asettle | Go team! | 10:18 |
| aspiers | asettle: I'd rather start the Proposed change section with the goals not with a reference to one particular document without any context | 10:19 |
| beekhof_mb | better? | 10:19 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: much :) | 10:19 |
| asettle | aspiers: please adjust :) | 10:19 |
| asettle | Good suggestion | 10:19 |
| asettle | Alright, how we feeling about this, folks? | 10:20 |
| aspiers | what is line 30 trying to say? | 10:20 |
| aspiers | distro agnosticism? | 10:20 |
| beekhof_mb | no | 10:20 |
| beekhof_mb | opinionated, but tollerant of other's opinions | 10:20 |
| asettle | aspiers: literally do not know, at that point I was trying too hard to figure out what you were saying in chat :P | 10:20 |
| asettle | We should probably reword it. | 10:21 |
| aspiers | I'll try that | 10:21 |
| asettle | Thanks aspiers | 10:21 |
| beekhof_mb | if you care enough to write and maintain a version for distro X, there should be a place for that | 10:21 |
| asettle | beekhof_mb: place for that in the spec? Or place int he guide? | 10:21 |
| asettle | the* | 10:21 |
| beekhof_mb | in the guide | 10:21 |
| beekhof_mb | i need to head out pretty soon | 10:22 |
| asettle | We can probably add a caveat later in the actual guide :) | 10:22 |
| beekhof_mb | sure | 10:22 |
| asettle | No problem beekhof_mb - if you're more or less okay with this, I'll publish this up and put it on the ML | 10:22 |
| asettle | Once aspiers has finished, of course | 10:22 |
| beekhof_mb | it will be enough to get people talking/complaining | 10:23 |
| asettle | That's all we need ;) | 10:23 |
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| beekhof_mb | i think we also want to include a section that justifies the arch | 10:24 |
| aspiers | hmm | 10:24 |
| aspiers | "Proposed change" section is more than that, currently | 10:24 |
| aspiers | it's higher-level goal for the guide | 10:24 |
| beekhof_mb | this is _why_ we use pacemaker, haproxy, etc | 10:24 |
| aspiers | beekhof_mb: yes | 10:25 |
| asettle | Ahuhhhh | 10:26 |
| aspiers | I added that as the first point | 10:27 |
| asettle | aspiers: yep makes sense | 10:28 |
| asettle | This looks good, thanks for your help guys :) | 10:28 |
| aspiers | 1 sec | 10:28 |
| asettle | Go for it | 10:28 |
| aspiers | I guess there should be more focus on use cases | 10:30 |
| asettle | So, there is a lot of push back against use cases at the moment. We can't maintain them. | 10:30 |
| aspiers | oh? | 10:30 |
| aspiers | "As a cloud operator, I want to learn more about deployment of OpenStack HA so that ..." | 10:30 |
| aspiers | How are they less maintainable than any other docs? | 10:31 |
| asettle | We're trying to remove them out of the user guides. Yeah... we get great use cases but the problem is, unless they are 'general' and can be updated by someone who is not a HA specialist, that's fine. But they are hard. | 10:31 |
| aspiers | I don't mean putting use cases *in* the guide | 10:31 |
| aspiers | I mean the use cases *for* the guide | 10:31 |
| asettle | AH | 10:31 |
| aspiers | to put in this spec | 10:31 |
| asettle | As you were. | 10:31 |
| asettle | Sorry, misunderstood. | 10:31 |
| asettle | I don't think we need too much more content than this. | 10:31 |
| aspiers | this spec does not yet consider the intended audience | 10:31 |
| asettle | Specs are not highly detailed usually. | 10:31 |
| aspiers | or what they want | 10:31 |
| aspiers | which ideally would drive the whole initiative | 10:32 |
| asettle | If you'd like to put in that kind of info, please go ahead. It would probably help the case :) | 10:32 |
| asettle | Brb :) | 10:35 |
| aspiers | asettle: aren't lines 7-8 a duplication of the next section, more or less? | 10:38 |
| aspiers | beekhof_mb: can you check lines 22-29 quickly? | 10:38 |
| beekhof_mb | sure | 10:39 |
| beekhof_mb | so you want to make sure the guide never gets updated? | 10:40 |
| aspiers | hah | 10:40 |
| aspiers | if noone objects to the spec then consensus is reached | 10:41 |
| aspiers | consensus about the goal of the guide, not the content of the guide | 10:41 |
| aspiers | BIG difference | 10:41 |
| aspiers | if we can't reach consensus on the goal of the guide, we might as well give up right now | 10:41 |
| beekhof_mb | ok, giving up :) | 10:42 |
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| beekhof_mb | ok, i'm out | 10:45 |
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| asettle | Sorry, ran away | 10:57 |
| asettle | aspiers: a little, yeah. They can be removed | 10:57 |
| asettle | So uh, what was the consensus? | 10:59 |
| aspiers | asettle: I think the consensus was to run away | 10:59 |
| asettle | Beautiful. | 10:59 |
| asettle | I'll patch this up. | 10:59 |
| asettle | Let me just give it a quick review | 11:00 |
| asettle | We can iterate, it's just a patch :) | 11:00 |
| asettle | aspiers: https://review.openstack.org/408558 | 11:05 |
| beekhof | what? someone has been impersonating me! | 12:19 |
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| asettle | beekhof: how does it feel? | 13:23 |
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| beekhof | i guess its fine as long as i'm the one getting the credit | 20:50 |
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| aspiers | lol | 21:36 |
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