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| hongbin | Hi all, our team meeting will start in about 7 mins | 02:53 |
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| hongbin | Qiming: ping. Team meeting if you have chance | 03:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | ChangBo Guo(gcb) proposed openstack/higgins: Don't include openstack/commmon in flake8 exclude list https://review.openstack.org/332012 | 08:41 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Gerrit is being restarted now to apply an emergency security-related configuration change | 16:05 | |
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| hongbin | harlowja: dims : FYI, there is a discussion at yesterday meeting about if Zun should support COEs or not | 19:00 |
| harlowja | uh ohes | 19:00 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:00 |
| hongbin | The topic extend to if Zun should compete with existing COEs... | 19:00 |
| harlowja | k | 19:00 |
| harlowja | i have a genuine feeling that it might be easier to just work with something like k8s instead of doing that :-P | 19:01 |
| hongbin | In general, I let the team to work on this etherpad to resolve the debate | 19:01 |
| hongbin | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions | 19:01 |
| hongbin | Yes, the development efforts is minimize if we work with COEs instead of re-inventing the whole things | 19:02 |
| hongbin | However, there are cons that has been pointed out | 19:02 |
| hongbin | I am divided right now | 19:02 |
| dims | hongbin : let's let it run its course | 19:03 |
| harlowja | and don't forget to take your laxatives | 19:03 |
| dims | hongbin : watching the dirty-sausage-making in kubernetes, it's a monster to do a COE | 19:03 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:04 |
| harlowja | thou does not want to watch sausage-making | 19:04 |
| hongbin | yes | 19:04 |
| dims | not to mention docker orchestration announcements from yesterday. we'd be marginalized pretty quickly | 19:04 |
| harlowja | yup | 19:04 |
| harlowja | unless we have an army appear overnight | 19:05 |
| harlowja | (developer army) | 19:05 |
| harlowja | i don't see that existing, lol | 19:05 |
| hongbin | :) | 19:05 |
| hongbin | Better to avoid direct competition. That is my feeling | 19:05 |
| harlowja | depends on your ambitions :-P | 19:06 |
| harlowja | and reality of those ambitions, ha | 19:06 |
| hongbin | ... | 19:06 |
| harlowja | i mean, these COE things are in all honesty, not super-complicated, u just have to have the right core pieces, and its all the same afterwards | 19:08 |
| hongbin | harlowja: dims appreciate if you have chance to cast your comments on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/zun-architecture-decisions | 19:08 |
| harlowja | sure | 19:09 |
| hongbin | ok | 19:09 |
| dims | hongbin : done | 19:16 |
| hongbin | dims: thx :) | 19:17 |
| hongbin | dims: you don't like option 4? | 19:19 |
| hongbin | dims: Interest to know your opinions about that | 19:19 |
| dims | hongbin : i'd prefer we go and contribute where there is a community already. it's counter productive just to fork something | 19:22 |
| hongbin | I see | 19:22 |
| hongbin | But we might come up with several OpenStack specific patches, that might not be easier to be acceptted | 19:23 |
| harlowja | tis life | 19:24 |
| harlowja | life tough, but that's ok | 19:24 |
| hongbin | :) | 19:24 |
| dims | hongbin : yep, totally, "community over code" | 19:25 |
| harlowja | now i know its not easy, but meh, people say the same when they have patches to openstack, its a urge/feeling imho that u have to get over | 19:26 |
| hongbin | That is true | 19:26 |
| * dims looks up his list of abandoned patches :) | 19:27 | |
| harlowja | lol | 19:27 |
| harlowja | i don't want to look at mine | 19:27 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:27 |
| hongbin | There is another difficulties to work with existing COEs. That is multitenancy | 19:31 |
| hongbin | COEs generally didn't follow the OpenStack multitancy model | 19:31 |
| dims | hongbin : right. so i was looking at options for authentication/authorization and multitenancy in k8s and it's not pretty | 19:31 |
| dims | kevin fox is doing a LOT of work around this in Kubernetes | 19:33 |
| harlowja | dims well the only kind of multitenancy that i think can start to work in k8s is the namespace stuff, and u basically have to expand namespaces to have/be more powerful tenancy | 19:33 |
| hongbin | mapping a namespace to Keystone tenant, maybe | 19:33 |
| harlowja | ya, its not imho sufficent but its a start | 19:34 |
| harlowja | u almost need like a /<tenancy-paths-here/tree>/<users-namespaces> | 19:34 |
| harlowja | if u want to map it that way, or perhaps it just needs a better model (inside of trying to morph namespaces into that0 | 19:34 |
| harlowja | *into that) | 19:35 |
| harlowja | now maybe thats an oppurtunity for this group | 19:35 |
| harlowja | to fill those gaps | 19:35 |
| hongbin | I wonder if Hypernetes already did that | 19:35 |
| harlowja | they put a thing in front of kube to do that afaik | 19:37 |
| harlowja | hyper-api or something | 19:37 |
| hongbin | I see | 19:37 |
| harlowja | but imho that's a solution, although sorta imho, not the best one (the best one requires working with the k8s for a native solution) | 19:37 |
| dims | hongbin : harlowja : https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=%20author%3Akfox1111%20keystone | 19:38 |
| harlowja | yup | 19:38 |
| dims | see the one about authorization | 19:38 |
| harlowja | ya 'In future PR's, I hope to implement full Multitenancy so that additionally, one k8s cluster could be used for the entire OpenStack Cloud, and Projects are isolated from each other though some mechanism (perhaps mapping keystone project = namespaces?)' | 19:38 |
| harlowja | i need to get those details from kevin | 19:38 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:38 |
| harlowja | overall all of this is how i found that k8s == not simple at all | 19:39 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:39 |
| harlowja | in my ideal pretty world, k8s folks would of actually worked with openstack when making k8s, cause alot of the crap is the same | 19:39 |
| dims | what? blasphemy! | 19:40 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:40 |
| harlowja | someone took my keyboard over that typed that | 19:40 |
| harlowja | that was weird | 19:40 |
| harlowja | lol | 19:40 |
| harlowja | having higgins work with those folks to fix that working-together-problem/situation, could be useful | 19:41 |
| harlowja | but it depends on the group imho | 19:41 |
| hongbin | yes, depends on the team :) | 19:42 |
| harlowja | ya, and i don't know really how k8s stuff will work out; i can't stand github PR for example, lol | 19:42 |
| harlowja | *mainly the UI around github really starts to feel bad for k8s (which is to big) | 19:43 |
| hongbin | :) | 19:44 |
| harlowja | so ya, hongbin its not an easy choice here :-P | 19:50 |
| harlowja | imho its one magnum avoided (but times were different then) | 19:51 |
| hongbin | I will just let the team to decide | 19:51 |
| harlowja | k | 19:52 |
| hongbin | My personal take is we can just folk COEs to start, and contribute it back if we can (seems like another Hypernetes ...) | 19:53 |
| harlowja | my personal take would be to pick k8s as the COE we will work with, work with the existing groups that are forming to do that integration, and hope for the best | 19:53 |
| harlowja | that decision though wouldn't be a 'make an abstraction over COE's or ...' | 19:54 |
| harlowja | i'd be making the tough choice of picking one | 19:54 |
| harlowja | and accepting that fate | 19:54 |
| harlowja | (whatever it ends up being) | 19:54 |
| hongbin | ack | 19:54 |
| harlowja | but i'm also biased | 19:54 |
| harlowja | if its an idea that people want to run with, i'm happy to help introduce to people that i know, help get things setup and such | 19:56 |
| hongbin | harlowja: How the Hypernetes folks doing. Did k8s community accept their code in upsteam? | 19:56 |
| harlowja | sooo | 19:56 |
| harlowja | https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/kubernetes-sig-openstack/XbN1RB_Cv-k | 19:56 |
| harlowja | the hyper folks changes @ | 19:56 |
| harlowja | Here is a list of changes made by Hyper: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BKQrURk31R4BvgQdCZ8LlHT9Z-bN6bEtUEQ4Il4yWXA/edit?usp=sharing , | 19:56 |
| harlowja | which is based on our commits here https://github.com/hyperhq/hypernetes/commits/master | 19:56 |
| harlowja | so no, imho they are trying to not have there startup die vs doing the k8s upstream stuff :-P | 19:56 |
| harlowja | (or that's my general feeling, lol) | 19:57 |
| harlowja | they want that to happen (which is good), i'm just not quite sure if they have the resources to do that (upstream the changes, work through the process/changes...) | 19:57 |
| hongbin | The list is huge | 20:00 |
| harlowja | :-P | 20:00 |
| hongbin | I guess it is hard to push them all to upstream | 20:00 |
| harlowja | its probably not there highest priority imho | 20:00 |
| harlowja | (for better/worse) | 20:00 |
| harlowja | the good thing about the k8s stuff imho is there is https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iAQ3LSF_Ky6uZdFtEZPD_8i6HXeFxIeW4XtGcUJtPyU (a working group trying to better the openstack integrations) | 20:01 |
| hongbin | The list is expanding or shrinking in your observation? | 20:01 |
| harlowja | hongbin the list just got published a week ago, so unsure ;) | 20:01 |
| hongbin | I see | 20:01 |
| harlowja | i can think of a few things that k8s needs to do better at | 20:02 |
| harlowja | multi-tenancy is one | 20:02 |
| harlowja | how it would/could/should integrate with nova (or ironic or?) to get 'minions' (the things that run containers) is another | 20:02 |
| harlowja | how it would/could/should work with keystone (in a non-experimental way) | 20:02 |
| harlowja | and then there is cinder as well (what is that plan) | 20:03 |
| hongbin | The idea of integrating with Nova is cool | 20:03 |
| harlowja | well it unravels the question of multiteancy at that point | 20:03 |
| hongbin | Yes | 20:03 |
| harlowja | not a bad problem, but one that needs likely a bunch more work vs an experimental keystone thing | 20:03 |
| harlowja | (that work is a good start, obviously) | 20:04 |
| hongbin | Frankly, it is hard to doing everything (nova, keystone, multitenancy, cinder) in upstream | 20:04 |
| harlowja | def | 20:04 |
| hongbin | Unless do it in a folk | 20:04 |
| hongbin | Like Hypernetes, or kubernetes-mesos | 20:04 |
| harlowja | ya, connecting two communites that haven't been connected before is somewhat akin to surgery on brains and connecting 2 brain-halfs | 20:05 |
| harlowja | although i am not a doctor | 20:05 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:05 |
| hongbin | yes | 20:05 |
| hongbin | you are not a doctor :) | 20:05 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:05 |
| harlowja | but i could be | 20:05 |
| hongbin | oh | 20:05 |
| harlowja | who wants me to join there brain-halfs | 20:05 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:06 |
| harlowja | dims u ok with being my guinea pig? | 20:06 |
| hongbin | :) | 20:06 |
| * dims is not here :) | 20:06 | |
| harlowja | u likely won't be after surgery either | 20:06 |
| harlowja | lol | 20:06 |
| harlowja | so ya, overall this question isn't easy to weigh, its not easy in any of the choices IMHO :-P | 20:07 |
| harlowja | 10 choices, pick one, lol | 20:08 |
| hongbin | ... | 20:08 |
| harlowja | (each with there unknowns) | 20:08 |
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