Monday, 2014-10-13

« Sunday, 2014-10-12 Index Tuesday, 2014-10-14 »
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rdopieralskihello gentledevs07:32
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NikitaKonovalovhi everyone, can someone review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/125927/ please, this is important for Sahara UI07:47
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nikunj2512rdopieralski: Hi11:47
nikunj2512rdopieralski: As You know i already submitted a patch for this bug - https://launchpad.net/bugs/1156433 (It is for notfiying the user for older browser versions)11:48
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nikunj2512rdopieralski: But it is stuck until the patch to add the package in the global-requirements file gets approved.11:49
nikunj2512rdopieralski: So, i was thinking until that happens, can i use jquey-migrate plugin to detect the brower type and version and notify the users??11:50
rdopieralskinikunj2512: I have no idea11:50
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nikunj2512rdopieralski: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/110067/11:50
nikunj2512rdopieralski: this is the review, if possible please take a look and it might jog your memory :)11:51
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rdopieralskinikunj2512: I don't think I want to get involved in that12:09
nikunj2512rdopieralski: ok12:09
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Thank You, So, can you point me to the right person whom i can ask for advice??12:10
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rdopieralskinikunj2512: maybe the mailing list?12:12
rdopieralskinikunj2512: but I doubt you will find much interest in that feature12:12
rdopieralskiit seems wrong to tell the users to change their browsers12:13
nikunj2512rdopieralski: OK but this feature is related to a bug.12:13
rdopieralskinikunj2512: a bug in an unsupported browser12:13
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Yes, that is what we have to tell the user that the browser is unsupported12:13
rdopieralskiwe do, in the documentation12:14
nikunj2512rdopieralski: OK12:14
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rdopieralskinikunj2512: another thing that is wrong is checking for browser make and version, instead of checking if the feature that we require works12:15
rdopieralskinikunj2512: that's not future-proof12:16
nikunj2512rdopieralski: But tell how many of us read documentation before using any product :)12:16
rdopieralskiin case of openstack it's not possible to use it without reading the docs12:16
sambettsrdopieralski++12:16
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok12:17
rdopieralskinikunj2512: don't get me wrong, it's great that you are contributing and I can see it's hard12:18
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nikunj2512rdopieralski: No, i can understand Your point of view but i had seen many bugs related to same issue where user either don't read or read the documentation incomplete and file for a bug12:19
rdopieralskinikunj2512: also, I'm not going to get in the way of that feature if someone thinks it's important12:19
rdopieralskimaybe there is a better solution than sniffing the version12:19
rdopieralskifor instance, graceful degradation12:20
nikunj2512rdopieralski: And we have a feature that notifies the end-user once they login, it will help everyone in long run and also thinking why things are not working12:20
nikunj2512rdopieralski: what does graceful degradation means?12:20
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nikunj2512rdopieralski: i got it.. Google :)12:21
sambettsSomething like a little message saying, you might not have a great experience with this browser could be interesting12:22
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rdopieralskinikunj2512: for instance, just don't display those graphs12:22
doug-fishrdopieralski:  sometimes I feel like if Google were suddenly no longer available I could no longer do my job.  :-)12:22
nikunj2512rdopieralski: But won't it be an cucumbersome solution. Because then we have to implement this thing for evey other thing which is not supported in order browsers ??12:23
nikunj2512doug-fish: yes, same here :)12:23
rdopieralskinikunj2512: yes, but then it will work for browsers in which only some of the things are supported12:23
nikunj2512sambetts: But that same thing we can have it with browser detection, a small message saying you might not have a great experience with this browser12:24
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sambettsin a previous project I worked on, we added browser detection on the backend side, looking at the user agent then injected a banner into the login template, with something simply like this "this browser is unsupported, for supported browsers see <documentation link>"12:27
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok but what about the css with is not supported in old browsers?? And i am really sorry for draging this conversation but i am trying to understand what can be the best for this problem with Yours and others help.12:27
robcresswellnikunj2512: Ideally you'd use a combination of both... gracefully reduce the feature set, with a small non-intrusive message (on login, perhaps). The issue, as always, is code bloat.12:27
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bradjonessambetts: I remember that project ;) I think that would be a nice addition12:28
nikunj2512sambetts: Yes, this can also be a good way to tell user12:28
nikunj2512robcresswell: Yes, we can use both but the gracefully reduce we can use for big features like canvas svg or other  and browser detection we can use for small features12:29
robcresswellA small notification of reduced support would be good. Graceful degradation is a separate decision - How far to support this etc...12:29
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nikunj2512robcresswell: Yes, that is what i am trying to convey :). A small notification using browser dectection. And later we can add Graceful degradation support forbig features12:31
robcresswellnikunj2512: +112:31
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nikunj2512robcresswell: Thank You :). Please sambetts, bradjones & rdopieralski, what are views??12:34
sambettsA simple message with a link to the docs is all I think we need to see right now, maybe the other should be brought up at the summit12:36
nikunj2512sambetts: Ok. i think that will enough for now12:37
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bradjonesnikunj2512: A simple message seems like a good addition, any browser detection should be done by looking at the user agent string in the request rather than in js IMO12:38
nikunj2512bradjones: Ok, this means using backend to identify the  browser type and version like sambetts told earlier and then injecting the message into the base template??12:39
rdopieralskibradjones: people have a tendency to change their user agent strings, expecially when they use non-standard browsers12:41
sambettsthats why I think we should look at them, because if someone has changd their user agent string, surly thats what they want12:42
bradjonessambetts: ++12:42
robcresswellrdopieralski: I dont think we should be held accountable for people choosing to alter their user agent though... It won't change site functionality, just whether a message appears.12:43
sambettslike if I change my phone browser to pretend its the desktop one12:43
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rdopieralskinikunj2512: have you looked as stuff like http://modernizr.com/ ?12:43
nikunj2512rdopieralski: yes, i have looked into the modernizr JS library and i know it detects specific feature not the browser version but my concern is also comes when we have break in css with old broswers12:44
rdopieralskinikunj2512: it also detects css features12:45
sambettsit says on the left hand side that it includeds yesno.js for conditional loading of css and js too12:45
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Yes but isn't defect most all the css features which will going to break in older browers like IE 6 will be headache??12:45
rdopieralskino idea, I never tried12:46
rdopieralskibut my hunch is that most problems are not critical12:46
rdopieralskiI mean, I can live without shadows or rounded corners12:47
rdopieralskibut I can't live without display: inline-block12:47
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Sorry, i am not as much expericed as you guys but won;t it be good to detect big features using Modernizr and using browser detection just finalize a minium workable browser version??12:47
rdopieralskialso, I'm still againts displaying any messages to the user on every page load12:48
rdopieralskithis is just an annoyance12:48
rdopieralskiespecially for the users who can't change their browsers12:48
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok. we can implement what ever community thinks will be good for the user, that is why i started this conversion:)12:48
rdopieralskibecause of a company policy12:48
robcresswellrdopieralski: I dont think the intention is on every load. Perhaps on login, or just a small banner on the login screen. I agree, every page would incredibly annoying.12:48
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok then can we only display message on the login page once12:49
nikunj2512??12:49
rdopieralskirobcresswell: hmm, a small notification on the login screem might actually work12:49
rdopieralskinikunj2512: but then you don't need js, do you?12:49
rdopieralskinikunj2512: just two lines of python to check the agent string?12:49
nikunj2512rdopieralski: yes, i need js but i can use jquery-migrate and css12:49
bradjonesrobcresswell, rdopieralski: I agree small message on the login screen, anything more would become an annoyance12:50
nikunj2512rdopieralski: ohh.. You want to use python, that can be done also :)12:50
rdopieralskiI'm not sure if we don't want to drop jquery-migrate at some point12:50
nikunj2512I also agree with small message12:50
rdopieralskiie when we actually migrate all our code and deps12:50
robcresswell+1 to python implementation. The less reliance on js, the better.12:51
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok. Than from your point of view, it will best to implement this in python side??12:51
nikunj2512robcresswell: Ok12:51
rdopieralskinikunj2512: I don't have an opinion, but robcresswell and sambetts seem to both suggest that12:51
rdopieralskiit would be still prudent to use a library for that, though12:52
rdopieralskiuser agent string parsing is... tricky12:52
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Yes. Ok but jquery-migrate is already included in the global-requirements.12:52
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rdopieralskiwe might want to drop it12:53
nikunj2512rdopieralski: ohhh... Ok12:53
john-davidgePython implementation ++. A simple message on login like "It appears that you are using an older web browser. For the best experience, please upgrade to the latest version."12:53
john-davidgeunintrusive but informative12:53
sambettshttps://github.com/selwin/django-user_agents for the django side12:53
sambettsor this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22374985/parse-http-user-agent-string-in-django12:54
nikunj2512sambetts: i liked the second approach. with this no need to include additional django app12:55
rdopieralskinikunj2512: I would reach out to the UX guys about how the message should look like and be worded12:55
rdopieralskinikunj2512: best, join #openstack-ux and ask12:56
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok. thank You. That will great and helpful. So, in the meantime what should, i do?? just implement it or do someone have to submit a bug or blueprint for this??12:56
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok. Thank You12:56
rdopieralskinikunj2512: a blueprint would be nice12:56
rdopieralskinikunj2512: as for speed, we have 6 months to the next release...12:57
sambettsyeah this isn't something thats going to make RC212:57
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok. Thank You. may i start the this talk in ux channel or will You?? Ok12:58
rdopieralskinikunj2512: I'm not even there, and I don't want to get involved12:59
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok. But You said you will "reach out to the UX guys about how the message should look like and be worded".13:00
rdopieralskino, I said you should do it13:00
nikunj2512Thank You everyone for the discussion13:00
rdopieralskiI would do it if I were you13:00
nikunj2512rdopieralski: Ok, Thank You13:00
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tsufievrdopieralski, jpich: Hi! I've made a follow-up to discussion of QUnit/Jasmine/Sinon.js testing frameworks on the last meeting http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-October/048301.html13:04
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tsufievtl;dr both Jasmine and Sinon.js IMO seem good things to have in Horizon :)13:05
rdopieralskitsufiev: awesome, reading now13:06
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rdopieralskitsufiev: you are right about the xstatic package for jasmine not containing ajax.js13:10
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rdopieralskitsufiev: I also agree with your conclusion that if we have to add a package to have that, we can as well choose the better one13:11
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rdopieralskitsufiev: but I don't think your conclusion about reqriting qunit into jasmine is properly motivated or explained ;)13:11
rdopieralskirewrtitting*13:12
rdopieralskiargh13:12
rdopieralskican't type13:12
tsufievrdopieralski, personally, I don't like QUnit very much13:12
rdopieralskiit's not perfect, but it's better than the natural-language-pretending jasmine13:12
tsufievrdopieralski, well, if we care about lessening the number of supported dependencies, why not try drop something :)?13:12
rdopieralskiwhich tries to look like it's stateless, when it obviously isn't13:13
rdopieralskitsufiev: it would be awesome to have one well documented way of writing js tests, with a rich set of examples for different situations -- no matter what library that uses13:14
rdopieralskitsufiev: by examples I mean existing tests13:14
rdopieralskialas, we only have a handful of tests for the stuff that was easiest to test13:14
tsufievrdopieralski, that means such document should stick to the syntax of some existing framework13:14
rdopieralskiand no real guidelines or examples13:15
tsufievrdopieralski, or do you suggest writing it in some testing pseudo-code?13:15
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rdopieralskino, no, what I mean is that I could live with Jasmine if it meant cleaner tests :)13:15
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rdopieralskiI have no idea how hard it would be to rewrite the existing tests, and/or write new tests for non-angular stuff13:16
tsufievrdopieralski, okay. The possible reason I don't like QUnit tests much is the fixtures it uses - they're really ugly. Maybe there is some way to get rid of them?...13:16
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rdopieralskitsufiev: I'm sure there are specialized libs for fixtures similar to sinon.js13:17
tsufievrdopieralski, well, that means adding another dependency :). Are you fine with that?13:17
rdopieralskiI'm a great fan of small libraries that do one thing well13:17
tsufiev+113:18
rdopieralskito be honest, I don't know what are the future plans for Horizon13:18
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rdopieralskishould we ultimately rewrite evertyhing to angular?13:18
rdopieralskiif so, then just using jasmine would make sense13:19
rdopieralskithat is definitely a topic that we should discuss on the summit13:20
tsufievrdopieralski, agree13:21
tsufievrdopieralski, I have been thinking for a while about unifying/simplifying JS testing in Horizon, perhaps writing a doc/tutorial summarizing existing use cases would be a good way to deal with this issue13:24
rdopieralskitsufiev: I think that we should start with cleaning up the existing tests and writing some more, for the difficult cases13:25
rdopieralskitsufiev: so that we can point people to examples13:25
rdopieralskiand good practices13:25
rdopieralskithen, when we actually know what the good practices are, write the docs13:25
tsufievrdopieralski, and what if in order to write test for some difficult case additional library will be needed, just as in the case with Sinon.JS?13:27
rdopieralskitsufiev: obviously, we add it13:27
rdopieralskitsufiev: if it's needed, it's needed13:28
tsufievrdopieralski, okay :)13:28
rdopieralskitsufiev: I'm not against adding dependencies or anything like that, I just want them to be properly reviewed and versioned13:28
rdopieralskitsufiev: and to have someone maintaining them13:28
tsufievrdopieralski, got it. I hope for some feedback in the ML to my message, collective mind could give a few good advices :)13:30
nikunj2512 rdopieralski: do you know What is the URL of the browser support matrix for horizon?13:31
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rdopieralskinikunj2512: it's on the wiki somewhere14:01
rdopieralskinikunj2512: no idea where it will be once it's moved into the docs14:01
nikunj2512 rdopieralski: Ok. i got the url, robcresswell helped me14:03
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rodrigodsamotoki, addressed your comments in  https://review.openstack.org/#/c/121410/ =)21:30
amotokirodrigods: thanks. I just commented the final cleanups.21:36
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rodrigodsamotoki, thanks again for the review... fixed the final clean ups =)22:19
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openstackgerritJanet Yu proposed a change to openstack/horizon: Fix addition of plugin panel to panel group  https://review.openstack.org/12813323:39
openstackgerritShaifali Agrawal proposed a change to openstack/horizon: CSS padding style is used instead of &nsbp;  https://review.openstack.org/12614123:52
openstackgerritShaifali Agrawal proposed a change to openstack/horizon: CSS padding style is used instead of &nsbp;  https://review.openstack.org/12614123:57
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