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| clarkb | mtreinish sqlite | 00:06 |
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| mtreinish | clarkb: did I spell it wrong? | 00:09 |
| clarkb | osorry didnt finish my thoughr | 00:10 |
| mtreinish | heh, no worries :) | 00:10 |
| clarkb | I was going to suggest that as a pythob version safe db too | 00:10 |
| clarkb | since it should be the same everywhere | 00:10 |
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| mtreinish | yep, and I think using subunit2sql makes a lot of sense for this too, although it's a bit more work than just switching dbm to sqlite | 00:12 |
| mtreinish | but sqlite is complete overkill for how testr is using the dbm file right now | 00:12 |
| mtreinish | because all it stores is key value pairs, test_id: runtime | 00:12 |
| mtreinish | and only the most recent runtime for a test is in the dbm it doesn't track across multiples | 00:13 |
| mordred | mongodb | 00:14 |
| mordred | with docker | 00:14 |
| mordred | done | 00:14 |
| mtreinish | haha | 00:14 |
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| Clint | jeblair: is it intended that gertty doesn't support - as negation in search queries? | 00:22 |
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| mordred | Clint: negation is the work of the devil | 00:28 |
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| Clint | mordred: that's okay, kris kristofferson taught me well | 00:31 |
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| * timrc thinks we should put the information zuul reports to the log into a webscale, shardable Internet-famous database or something. The information is too useful to leave to log files. | 00:56 | |
| nibalizer | ya! | 00:57 |
| mtreinish | timrc: isn't that the idea behind the zuul mysql reporter? | 00:59 |
| timrc | mtreinish, I know not of this reporter... so maybe> | 00:59 |
| timrc | ? | 00:59 |
| mtreinish | timrc: it was something jhesketh was working on IIRC I don't think it ever landed in the zuul repo though | 01:00 |
| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack-infra/gerritlib: Add ability for this thread to die/cleanup https://review.openstack.org/171393 | 01:00 |
| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack-infra/gerritlib: Add new tests to ensure data is captured https://review.openstack.org/171449 | 01:01 |
| timrc | mtreinish, Sounds interesting and useful. | 01:01 |
| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack-infra/gerritlib: Add basic state transition tests https://review.openstack.org/171758 | 01:01 |
| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack-infra/gerritlib: Add test for reconnect attempts https://review.openstack.org/171763 | 01:01 |
| mtreinish | timrc: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/65885/ | 01:02 |
| mtreinish | it's pretty simple there, but it could easily be expanded to include all the pieces you are tracking | 01:03 |
| timrc | mtreinish, Yeah I'm looking at the change now. It doesn't look like it's storing information in a way that would make it much better than parsing logs. | 01:03 |
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| timrc | mtreinish, I'm working on a script that parses the zuul.log and charts the events and the time between those events for a given change/build. So what would be an improvement over that is if the data was already structured. | 01:06 |
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| timrc | structured and query-able* | 01:07 |
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| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack-infra/gerritlib: Add ability for this thread to die/cleanup https://review.openstack.org/171393 | 01:20 |
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| openstackgerrit | Madhusudhan Kandadai proposed openstack-infra/project-config: New jobs for neutron-lbaasv2 scenario tests https://review.openstack.org/199754 | 01:39 |
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| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack-infra/gerritlib: Add test for reconnect attempts https://review.openstack.org/171763 | 02:12 |
| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack-infra/gerritlib: Add basic state transition tests https://review.openstack.org/171758 | 02:12 |
| openstackgerrit | Joshua Harlow proposed openstack-infra/gerritlib: Add new tests to ensure data is captured https://review.openstack.org/171449 | 02:12 |
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| openstackgerrit | Davanum Srinivas (dims) proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Add dsvm job for oslo.cache https://review.openstack.org/200731 | 03:02 |
| pleia2 | Clint: thanks re: freenode ticket \o/ | 03:02 |
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| openstackgerrit | Davanum Srinivas (dims) proposed openstack/requirements: Make mock 1.1 the minimum version. https://review.openstack.org/200344 | 03:22 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/release-tools: Be safer with git refs. https://review.openstack.org/199736 | 03:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/project-config: Activate KEEP_LOCALRC for Murano https://review.openstack.org/200464 | 05:25 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/project-config: Added non voting Murano coverage job https://review.openstack.org/200445 | 05:30 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/project-config: Add an experimental ceilometer grenade job https://review.openstack.org/200086 | 05:30 |
| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/project-config: Add experimental Cinder job for LIO https://review.openstack.org/198079 | 05:31 |
| openstackgerrit | Andreas Jaeger proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Rename stackforge/os-ansible-deployment{,specs} https://review.openstack.org/200730 | 05:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/project-config: Requirements updates clone from git.o.o https://review.openstack.org/200726 | 08:37 |
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| Somay | zaro: If you’re around, could you please review some of my patches? Most need just another +2 https://review.openstack.org/#/q/owner:somay.jain%2540gmail.com+status:open,n,z | 09:58 |
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| openstackgerrit | yolanda.robla proposed openstack-infra/system-config: Don't hardcode pip.conf values https://review.openstack.org/166252 | 10:36 |
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| openstackgerrit | yolanda.robla proposed openstack-infra/puppet-gerrit: Allow to send javaOptions in gerrit.config https://review.openstack.org/190057 | 10:47 |
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| dgonzalez | clarkb: sdague: If you are around, it would be cool if you could have a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/200309/ | 11:45 |
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| mordred | timrc: clarkb was looking at something a while back about log emitters that will json the log data. at the time it was in the context of openstack and of making logstash parsing more better | 12:03 |
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| mordred | timrc: https://github.com/exoscale/python-logstash-formatter this looks interesting | 12:05 |
| fungi | timrc: also curious, if you're still looking for timimg/performance data to track, why you don't just add more statsd calls instead of trying to infer it from log entries (not sure exactly what in zuul you're attempting to get timing on though) | 12:13 |
| openstackgerrit | Monty Taylor proposed openstack-infra/shade: Allow use of admin tokens in keystone https://review.openstack.org/199209 | 12:13 |
| mordred | mmm. also more statsd calls | 12:14 |
| openstackgerrit | Monty Taylor proposed openstack-infra/shade: Allow use of admin tokens in keystone https://review.openstack.org/199209 | 12:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack-infra/shade: Fix identity domain methods https://review.openstack.org/200684 | 13:08 |
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| jeblair | Clint: i don't think it's intentional, though i don't see any support for it in the tokenizer, so it seems less like a bug and more of a not-implemented feature | 13:59 |
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| mordred | you're a tokenizer | 14:08 |
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| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack-infra/system-config: Add a common data directory for job workers https://review.openstack.org/200698 | 14:29 |
| openstackgerrit | Jeremy Stanley proposed openstack-infra/system-config: Be more specific about scripts dir requirement https://review.openstack.org/200826 | 14:29 |
| fungi | time to go assemble a wheelbarrow so that i can mix some cement in it so that i can set a post so that i can mount a mailbox so that i can receive piled of unwanted junk mail | 14:31 |
| fungi | s/piled/piles/ | 14:32 |
| fungi | "if you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" [sagan] | 14:32 |
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| kun_huang | anyone here in this weekend? | 15:06 |
| kun_huang | I have a global requirement issue | 15:06 |
| timrc | fungi, Did you see the charts I'm producing? http://i.imgur.com/0craBhV.png | 15:06 |
| timrc | fungi, This chart plots events and time between events to show the progression of a build. | 15:06 |
| kun_huang | http://logs.openstack.org/40/200440/8/check/gate-rally-requirements/0e85754/console.html updated requirements doesn't match global requirement because of unicode issue | 15:07 |
| timrc | fungi, Not sure how I | 15:08 |
| timrc | erm | 15:08 |
| timrc | Not sure how I'd model this in statsd. | 15:08 |
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| timrc | mordred, Looking at that project, now. Thanks. | 15:11 |
| timrc | mordred, What I | 15:11 |
| timrc | Gah. Stupid return key. | 15:11 |
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| timrc | mordred, What I'd really like to have is a web service that would allow me to generate these charts on-the-fly for any given project/change/build. Also it would be good if the index were a paginated list of builds that could be filtered on a given project or change. I think that could give the admin/op a fast way of getting insights into the system's functioning. | 15:15 |
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| fungi | kun_huang: it looks like it's complaining that your test-requirement.txt has "2.6" in the markers for mock and it's expecting '2.6' instead (" vs ') | 15:21 |
| fungi | kun_huang: we landed a patch to global requirements with "2.6" in it followed immediately by one that switched that to '2.6' and i think you manged to update in between those two | 15:25 |
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| kun_huang | fungi: thanks! | 15:31 |
| kun_huang | trying now | 15:31 |
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| kun_huang | fungi: it passed:) | 15:45 |
| kun_huang | thank you very much :-) | 15:45 |
| fungi | kun_huang: you're welcome! | 15:45 |
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| jeblair | timrc: fyi there are already some timing stats in zuul: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/zuul/tree/zuul/scheduler.py#n545 | 15:55 |
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| ekarlso | is it normal for a AIO install to have 3.7k mysql connections open ? | 16:21 |
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| timrc | jeblair, I don't think you can use those to depict how a build progresses for a given changeset, though. | 16:22 |
| jeblair | timrc: nope, it works better in aggregate, and answers questions like "how long does this job take? how long do changes spend in this pipeline?". run times for specific changes are reported to that change in gerrit. | 16:25 |
| jeblair | timrc: what additional questions do you want to answer? | 16:26 |
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| timrc | jeblair, Yep and we chart those stats and I do find them useful. I also like the insights that something like http://i.imgur.com/0craBhV.png gives -- either because I'm looking at a specific incident or trying to understand where all the time is going for a particular change. | 16:28 |
| timrc | That chart shows some interesting things like the fact that hp-config-gerrit took twice as long to start building then it actually took to build or that gate-hp-config-projects-yaml ran twice in the context of the same build. | 16:31 |
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| timrc | From the perspective of a customer/user saying "Why is it taking my build so long to complete?" I think that gives them a pretty good visual story. | 16:32 |
| timrc | Obviously not a complete picture, but a nice summary. | 16:33 |
| jeblair | timrc: i agree that it shows that, but what actionable information does it give you? | 16:33 |
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| timrc | jeblair, Well if it's taking twice as long to run the build as it takes the build to run then I can key in on a couple things: is it because there is a capacity problem or is jenkins saturated? Maybe a combination of both? | 16:34 |
| jeblair | timrc: right -- i think that would be useful to know, but even more useful to know in aggregrate. so you could add a statsd timer for the time spend waiting for a node and then get a system-wide view and trends. | 16:35 |
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| timrc | jeblair, Agreed, that would be useful. I'd also like to know how many jobs are queued for a given node type vs the currently availability of each node type. So one time series for zuul key'ed on node type (not sure this is even possible) and one time series for nodepool key'd on node type. | 16:41 |
| jeblair | timrc: it's tricky in zuul -- zuul itself doesn't know node type (even if it might be responsible for selecting it in some (but not all) cases) -- it's not a built-in concept. it will be in zuulv3 though. | 16:43 |
| jeblair | timrc: nodepool knows demand by node type, so if you want to graph those (could be statsd guages) that would be super useful | 16:43 |
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| AJaeger | fungi, tell us the address of your mailbox, so that we can junk mail you ;) | 17:23 |
| TheJulia | /win 8 | 17:26 |
| AJaeger | jeblair, fungi: Btw. what's up with "gate-openstackci-beaker-centos7 NOT_REGISTERED" that I see on project-config and system-config? Any changes that need to be reviewed for this? Note this is a non-voting job, so no need to stop your construction work for that... | 17:26 |
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| openstackgerrit | Dave Walker proposed openstack-infra/project-config: Add check-requirements job to openstack/anchor https://review.openstack.org/199479 | 17:40 |
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| timrc | jeblair, Wold the information be useful both as a gauge and a time series? I think it'd be useful to plot demand on our job volume graph. | 17:54 |
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| fungi | AJaeger: 36.0347,-75.6859, Sol-3, Milky Way, Andromeda Group, Laniakea, 2.3473*10^62 Planck time, cosmological constant 0.692 (please limit contact to 3 spatial dimensions, linear time preferred) | 18:03 |
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| AJaeger | fungi: not sure that smail mail will deliver this way to the bay ;) | 18:05 |
| fungi | AJaeger: i'm fairly certain gate-openstackci-beaker-centos7 is either registering with the wrong node type or missing an override in the relevant zuul parameter function (i haven't checked to see which), but also not sure whether the job should be centos6 instead | 18:05 |
| AJaeger | fungi: introduced by jeblair's change I2644665776d2f83e113d5123773b664050a67567 . Let's ask him ... | 18:06 |
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| AJaeger | fungi: place looks nice | 18:12 |
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| fungi | AJaeger: it is, but also a lot of work! | 18:13 |
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| AJaeger | fungi: Looks like it's worth sitting in the garden and looking over the bay at the end of the day;) | 18:27 |
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| fungi | AJaeger: frequently, but at the moment we have a storm on the way so i'm trying to get some yardwork knocked out before it gets too wet out there | 18:35 |
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| Clint | jeblair: ok, i'll submit a patch to change the NEG regex a bit later | 19:22 |
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| openstackgerrit | lifeless proposed openstack/requirements: Place an accurate lower bound on pbr https://review.openstack.org/200758 | 21:56 |
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| openstackgerrit | Mikhail S Medvedev proposed openstack-infra/puppet-openstackci: Add generic logstash manifests https://review.openstack.org/199790 | 22:30 |
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| lifeless | so thought | 22:58 |
| lifeless | perhaps we should stop telling people to install tox globally | 22:58 |
| lifeless | and instead script up: | 22:58 |
| mordred | lifeless: DOCKER! | 22:58 |
| lifeless | - grab a latest virtualenv via git/https-tarball/whatever | 22:58 |
| lifeless | - make a virtualenv | 22:58 |
| lifeless | - install tox and anything else we want latest versions of in that | 22:59 |
| mordred | lifeless: so - we started out with a script that handled things and moved from that to to | 22:59 |
| mordred | tox | 22:59 |
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| lifeless | - paste a PATH variable users can put into their .rc files | 22:59 |
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| lifeless | where install-things would be 'use the pip which is bundled in that virtualenv and we know is sane' | 23:00 |
| mordred | yah. so - I'm starting to thing that distributing helper scripts to use virtualenv is our downfalling at all | 23:00 |
| lifeless | mordred: right, but now we're dealing with different tox versions and those incompats that happen | 23:00 |
| mordred | yah | 23:00 |
| mordred | no - I get the problem | 23:00 |
| lifeless | mordred: docker might be an answer too | 23:01 |
| mordred | but I'm more and more of the mind that we keep solving 3 conflicting standards by making a 4th | 23:01 |
| mordred | and instead, a nice doc on "here's how virtualenv works - here are some helpers you might like" might get us further | 23:01 |
| lifeless | mordred: the one thing that new abstractions can't help with :) | 23:01 |
| mordred | yah | 23:01 |
| lifeless | A script and some docs are not mutually exclusive AFAICT | 23:02 |
| mordred | and instead of focusing on one-stop abstractions, focus on making sure that people who know how to use the toolchains will not be surprised | 23:02 |
| lifeless | what about 'here's how it works, and here's a common pattern we use to not depend on our distro vendors being up to date' | 23:02 |
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| lifeless | and a nice script block folk can copy-paste if they want to | 23:02 |
| mordred | lifeless: I would argue that the existence of tox and run_tests.sh have led us to a place where 2-3 years in to testr, most openstack devs do not know how its command line works | 23:03 |
| lifeless | yes, which is bonkers :) | 23:03 |
| lifeless | well | 23:03 |
| lifeless | there is the test selection language problem | 23:03 |
| lifeless | which I totally want to solve | 23:03 |
| lifeless | I just need to convince anyone with time to work on it to not solve-for-tempest | 23:03 |
| lifeless | but instead solve-for-general-case | 23:03 |
| lifeless | mtreinish: ^ I'm not talking about you. Honest. | 23:03 |
| mordred | lifeless: turns out there are not enough times in the days | 23:04 |
| lifeless | so I can do something easy here. | 23:04 |
| lifeless | I will figure out a bare minimum and blog it | 23:04 |
| lifeless | and we'll see | 23:04 |
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| lifeless | I had to do something similar to get pypy3 available the other day | 23:05 |
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| lifeless | mordred: oh btw - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/200344/ | 23:06 |
| lifeless | mordred: its green, it has one +2. | 23:06 |
| lifeless | mordred: wink wink nudge nudge | 23:06 |
| clarkb | Makefiles? | 23:07 |
| clarkb | probably not going to make many happy | 23:07 |
| lifeless | clarkb: I think mordreds point is that abstractions that prevent learning are themselves a problem | 23:07 |
| mordred | well - that and also makefiles would be another syncing operation | 23:08 |
| lifeless | So what are the key things here | 23:08 |
| lifeless | I think they are: | 23:08 |
| mordred | beer | 23:08 |
| lifeless | - we need to publish the known good versions of tools that are not automatically-managed | 23:08 |
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| lifeless | today thats tox, pip, virtualenv, setuptools | 23:09 |
| lifeless | [on dev machines] | 23:09 |
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| lifeless | and the Python's that are installed and the various distro things like libssl-dev | 23:09 |
| lifeless | We need to publish known-good so that a dev encountering trouble can consult and see if they are in new territory | 23:10 |
| lifeless | - we need a way for our entire dev community to get known good versions running locally | 23:10 |
| lifeless | [known good *might* be a set] | 23:10 |
| lifeless | right now we don't really do that. Some folk do sudo -H pip install pip and then wonder why their machine is horked | 23:10 |
| lifeless | for instance | 23:10 |
| lifeless | - we need to communicate actions where folk have to change those versions widely and clearly | 23:11 |
| lifeless | whether thats by email, or by having test suites refuse to run, or whatever | 23:11 |
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| * mordred does sudo pip install -U pip all the time ... | 23:12 | |
| * mordred also knows how to fix it when it breaks ... | 23:12 | |
| lifeless | mordred: with python-pip installed? | 23:12 |
| lifeless | mordred: well yeah. | 23:12 |
| mordred | lifeless: I NEVER install python-pip | 23:12 |
| lifeless | mordred: right - but | 23:12 |
| lifeless | we don't document that today | 23:12 |
| mordred | yah | 23:12 |
| lifeless | so | 23:12 |
| lifeless | I think it would be fine to have multiple mechanisms | 23:12 |
| lifeless | but we need the publication, *a reference mechanism*, and the updates | 23:13 |
| Sam-I-Am | howdy folks | 23:13 |
| mordred | morning Sam-I-Am | 23:13 |
| lifeless | o/ | 23:14 |
| * Sam-I-Am looks at clock | 23:14 | |
| lifeless | its beer o'clock. | 23:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | guess its morning somewhere | 23:14 |
| lifeless | 1114 here | 23:14 |
| lifeless | late morning | 23:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | 1814 here, still saturday | 23:14 |
| Sam-I-Am | er, 1714... stupid irc box needs a tz fix | 23:14 |
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| clarkb | ya but evetyonr knoes how a makefile works | 23:16 |
| Sam-I-Am | trying to weekend a bit here | 23:17 |
| Sam-I-Am | more networking guide patches await on monday | 23:17 |
| lifeless | clarkb: whats your point? I'm missing something | 23:17 |
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| lifeless | mordred: fungi: do you know where fungi's master-bindep file is ? | 23:20 |
| clarkb | if you want something instead of tox which is obthse and instead of shell acript which people update and add all the bugs to | 23:20 |
| clarkb | have a simple makefile that works | 23:20 |
| clarkb | people understand it, it shows you the commands so if you want to do somethibg new you just run them | 23:21 |
| clarkb | you dont feel like this 1k line shell acript needs updating | 23:21 |
| lifeless | clarkb: I think you might be solving for a different problem | 23:21 |
| clarkb | maybe | 23:21 |
| lifeless | how do you tell people they need to update? | 23:22 |
| lifeless | how do you help people diagnose problems? | 23:22 |
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| clarkb | well for the secobd hopefully makefiles are well known enough people can help themselves | 23:23 |
| clarkb | for the first we can sync it out like we do with the other file syncs? or do you mean package updates? | 23:23 |
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| jroll | lifeless: this isn't a useful comment, but what I'm reading here is that system packages for python things are yet again causing problems | 23:27 |
| lifeless | jroll: they are being held up as a reason not to do something in a list discussion | 23:28 |
| lifeless | and I'm evaluating the cause | 23:28 |
| lifeless | and process | 23:28 |
| * jroll looks at the list | 23:28 | |
| lifeless | jroll: the one about testr being inside the tox venvs | 23:29 |
| jroll | thanks | 23:29 |
| lifeless | mordred: in fact | 23:31 |
| lifeless | http://docs.openstack.org/infra/manual/python.html#python-unit-tests | 23:31 |
| lifeless | mordred: tells people to do what you tell people not to do | 23:31 |
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| jroll | lifeless: so besides the main points in that thread -- I'm curious how many folks actually query the data in the testr db to learn things | 23:41 |
| lifeless | jroll: I don't know if you were around when we first introduced parallelisation | 23:42 |
| lifeless | jroll: but testr run --analyze-isolation | 23:42 |
| lifeless | jroll: was super useful during that period: and its an example of querying. | 23:42 |
| lifeless | jroll: testr run --failing | 23:42 |
| lifeless | jroll: is another example [runs just the failing tests] | 23:42 |
| lifeless | I can't speak for how often other people use things | 23:42 |
| jroll | lifeless: ok, I'm not aware of what all it can do, just curious | 23:42 |
| jroll | I've personally never used it much | 23:43 |
| jroll | --failing seems more useful when the db is separated by python version though | 23:43 |
| lifeless | jroll: so indeed and thats why testr is learning about test environments | 23:43 |
| lifeless | jroll: so it can reach out and report / execute on that | 23:43 |
| lifeless | but I don't think you want it partitioned | 23:44 |
| jroll | lifeless: ok, I was looking at your points against separating testr db by tox env :) | 23:44 |
| jroll | sure | 23:44 |
| lifeless | you want a holistic view. test_foo is failing on py26,p32 | 23:44 |
| jroll | sometimes | 23:44 |
| jroll | other times I want, "re-run the tests that failed for each env per-env" | 23:45 |
| lifeless | sure | 23:45 |
| lifeless | testr run --failing -e py26 # hypothetical | 23:45 |
| jroll | and we execute testr per-env, so a split seems to make sense | 23:45 |
| jroll | the thing is nobody uses "testr run" | 23:45 |
| jroll | not nobody, but you know what I mean | 23:46 |
| lifeless | sure | 23:46 |
| lifeless | they use run_tests | 23:46 |
| lifeless | or tox | 23:46 |
| lifeless | or both | 23:46 |
| lifeless | the point is what should the direction be | 23:46 |
| lifeless | do we increase capability | 23:46 |
| lifeless | or reduce it? | 23:46 |
| jroll | yeah. | 23:47 |
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| jroll | so it sounds like testr could (one day?) replace tox, right? | 23:48 |
| lifeless | there's a lot of overlap yes | 23:49 |
| lifeless | I can totally see testr invoking tox | 23:49 |
| lifeless | or tox not being there | 23:49 |
| lifeless | or using tox to setup the environments | 23:50 |
| lifeless | and testr to do the testing | 23:50 |
| jroll | testr isn't capable of standing up an environment, correct? | 23:50 |
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| lifeless | jroll: it has a set of hooks for doing backend context setup | 23:52 |
| lifeless | jroll: (e.g. making containers, sshing to slave machines, querying OpenStack for available slaves, whatever) | 23:53 |
| jroll | interesting. | 23:53 |
| lifeless | jroll: it doesn't [today] have a specific environment abstraction: it assumes homogeneous capabilities. | 23:53 |
| lifeless | jroll: but adding heterogeneous capabilities + tags-per-combination is on my very-interested-to-have list | 23:54 |
| lifeless | jroll: here's an old blog post that shows some of the plumbing https://rbtcollins.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/multi-machine-parallel-testing-of-nova-with-testrepository/ | 23:54 |
| jroll | lifeless: cool, I'm not sure I have enough context to comment, I'd like to investigate more | 23:55 |
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