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| fungi | if distros weren't different they wouldn't be distros | 00:36 |
|---|---|---|
| fungi | they'd just be distro | 00:36 |
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| clarkb | fungi: true, though I'm not sure how much value there is in putting grub configs in different locations. But I may be missing some subtle thing here | 01:03 |
| clarkb | it would be great if grub prescribed a method | 01:03 |
| fungi | yeah, pretty sure it's just that they all did it independently and didn't coordinate | 01:05 |
| clarkb | I'm going to guess that secure boot plays into it somehow too | 01:08 |
| clarkb | given that ubuntu's behavior changes based on that | 01:08 |
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| clarkb | I wonder if fedora and friends just do the same thing always and have chosen to accomdoate secure boot as part of that | 01:09 |
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| fungi | likely | 01:19 |
| fungi | though amusingly, most distros reuse the secure boot cert microsoft signed for ubuntu | 01:20 |
| fungi | since the hardware manufactures mostly ignore the spec and just hardcode in a trust for microsoft's ca | 01:21 |
| fungi | and don't even make it configurable | 01:21 |
| mnaser | at least microsoft has been nice about letting people use it | 01:21 |
| mnaser | :p | 01:21 |
| fungi | yep! | 01:21 |
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| openstackgerrit | OpenStack Proposal Bot proposed openstack/project-config master: Normalize projects.yaml https://review.opendev.org/699059 | 06:07 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/project-config master: Normalize projects.yaml https://review.opendev.org/699059 | 09:17 |
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| zbr | clarkb: where you one of those not very happy with pip project? or who was from infra? | 12:47 |
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| fungi | not happy in what way? | 13:41 |
| zbr | fungi: in general, breaking things on new releases. i remember that at least someone told me that but do not remember who. | 13:45 |
| zbr | mainly i was asking because I opened a discussion few days ago regarding adding an API and apparently is going nowhere. | 13:47 |
| zbr | i am curious if is me that have unreasonable expectations, or there is something wrong there. | 13:47 |
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| zbr | apparently there are others asking about the same thing but those that can make it happen don't want it to ever happen | 13:49 |
| zbr | https://discuss.python.org/t/can-we-finally-add-a-minimal-api-to-pip/2833 | 13:49 |
| fungi | ahh, well i haven't read that particular issue, but the pip maintainers have said for years that they don't want to provide any stable api guarantees, and that any api should instead go into a separate python package which pip can then (vendor and) use | 13:52 |
| zbr | fungi: am i paranoic or this is a political way of telling someone to .... | 13:53 |
| zbr | pip comes with python and is the almost ubiquitous way to install modules. so you would need to call pip cli fist to make new-pip-api module available. | 13:54 |
| zbr | they could rephrase it as "yes you can build you own api that calls pip cli" | 13:54 |
| fungi | so far, things which folks have wanted as exposed api methods have been implemented in https://pypi.org/project/packaging/ and then pip eventually switches to calling those internally | 13:56 |
| fungi | but yeah, pip maintainers are quite adamant that pip is not structured in a way that they feel comfortable supporting its use as a library | 13:58 |
| fungi | and they don't want to be hamstrung by backward compatibility expectations when it comes to its internal modules | 13:58 |
| fungi | they consider that what they provide is a command-line utility, nothing more. it just happens to be implemented in python but that doesn't mean they intend for it to get used as a library | 13:59 |
| fungi | its command-line interface has been fairly stable, and they expect any automation to use that | 14:00 |
| fungi | (they've even merged improvements to some outputs to make them more reliably machine-readable) | 14:00 |
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| zbr | i am afraid that packaging has zero support for installing packages, is outside its scope | 14:23 |
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| zbr | so if you want to use python to install packages using an api, you are forced to use pip cli, and that is enforced by not wanting to add any api entry points to pip. | 14:24 |
| zbr | somehow my impression is that even the creation of _internal submodule was made specially to prevent people from using any internals, what also broke pip command on various distros that were bundling it separately than python. | 14:28 |
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| zbr | what put me off compeltely was the refusal to add a test for runpy calling method | 14:33 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged zuul/nodepool master: GCE: add use-internal-ip option https://review.opendev.org/699041 | 15:04 |
| clarkb | zbr I've had PRs receive particularly abrasive reviews after being ignored for about a year | 15:25 |
| clarkb | along the lines of "there us so much wrong with this I wont even tell you what the problems are" | 15:26 |
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| zbr | clarkb: so there is a chance that i may not be totally paranoic, somehow i start to see a pattern, starting to recognize some names that are likely to kill any good intention. | 15:34 |
| zbr | btw, i will go in pto for ~1week from tomorrow, in case someone wonders why i do not reply. | 15:34 |
| zbr | one thing is good about discuss, now it is easier to make discussions more open, in fact this is why i raise the issue there instead of using pip issue tracker. | 15:35 |
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| clarkb | ya my family arrives thursday and I'll be in andout. Going to try and use time to continue tracking down flaky jobs | 15:38 |
| clarkb | Searching on zuul_attempts:"3" hasbeen quite good for finding that particular type of failure | 15:39 |
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| mordred | clarkb: favor to ask - could you add https://review.opendev.org/#/c/698972 non-urgently to your review list? | 15:43 |
| mordred | clarkb: the background is - trying to replace glanceclient with sdk in python-openstackclient and dtroyer doesn't want to lose osc's ability to accept image data on stdin | 15:43 |
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| mordred | clarkb: the approach is to add support for that to sdk - and to throw errors if you're trying to use it with a backend (like swift) where that would become unreasonable | 15:44 |
| mordred | clarkb: largely - I expect us to never use that facility, so I just want to make sure adding it isn't going to break anything we're doing | 15:44 |
| mordred | ianw: ^^ you might also want to keep eyes on that change | 15:44 |
| clarkb | ya I can take a look, but not this second | 15:47 |
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| mordred | it's not even green | 15:51 |
| mordred | this is mostly a heads up | 15:52 |
| mordred | and thanks! | 15:52 |
| clarkb | kk | 15:52 |
| mordred | clarkb: also - I learned from twitter that the abbreviation of only "k" instead of "kk" is insulting. I had no idea | 15:52 |
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| clarkb | uh today I learned | 15:55 |
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| fungi | zbr: see, i feel the opposite way about discourse, because they moved most discussions off distutils-sig mailing list when they added discourse, and i find it much harder to follow (which is why i hadn't even seen your thread) | 16:09 |
| fungi | as for pip maintainers moving everything to _internal, that was exactly to try to get people to stop importing it after numerous occurrences where they'd make internal changes to reorganize things in the pip codebase and then villagers with pitchforks with rise up because some function they were calling via import pip changed or was removed | 16:11 |
| fungi | they do consider themselves to have a stable api, they feel that stable api is their command-line arguments/options, and the general suggestion for installing python packages from python is to call popen or something to execute pip's command-line interface with the options you want and then ingest the stdout/stderr and exit codes it produces | 16:12 |
| fungi | but yeah, before the move to _internal the counterargument they kept getting was "well if you don't want us to import pip then why do you have all these functions which aren't marked as private, we just assumed they were a public api" | 16:14 |
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| pabelanger | looks like pypi is having an outage: https://status.python.org/ noticed old releases of ansible were getting installed in zuul.a.c jobs, figured I'd mention here if people also see jobs failing | 17:29 |
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| fungi | thanks for the heads-up! | 17:58 |
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