Monday, 2026-10-19

opendevreviewNuutti Hakala proposed openstack/ironic master: Add more JSON schema validation to allocation API  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/100970005:08
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Check Dell LC job outcomes when a firmware update task disappears  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/100565606:41
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Add Redfish BootProgress gate helper  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/100565706:41
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Verify firmware application after reboot before resuming  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/100565806:41
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Validate BMC stability only after BMC firmware updates  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/100565906:41
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Batch non-BMC Redfish firmware updates under one reboot  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/99972006:41
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Document batched Redfish firmware updates  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/99972106:41
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Keep Redfish firmware update state in one record with explicit phases  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/101045906:41
opendevreviewJed Preist proposed openstack/bifrost master: Add support for authentication when downloading deployment images  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/bifrost/+/100809308:02
opendevreviewJed Preist proposed openstack/bifrost master: Add support for authentication when downloading deployment images  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/bifrost/+/100809308:20
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/sushy master: Add LastResetTime to the System resource  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/sushy/+/101125011:22
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Add Redfish BootProgress gate helper  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/100565711:25
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Verify firmware application after reboot before resuming  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/100565811:25
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Validate BMC stability only after BMC firmware updates  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/100565911:25
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Batch non-BMC Redfish firmware updates under one reboot  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/99972011:25
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Document batched Redfish firmware updates  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/99972111:25
opendevreviewJacob Anders proposed openstack/ironic master: Keep Redfish firmware update state in one record with explicit phases  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/101045911:25
TheJuliagood morning13:08
TheJuliaAny suggested edits for the PTG summary? 13:15
TheJuliakubajj: regarding what I'm guessing your edit is, I'm thinking the best way to frame it may be more at "warm available" so operators can hopefully skip an extra "boot". Shifting reboots to just the end of cleaning is... odd.13:15
kubajjTheJulia: yes, that was me, sorry - but at least in the spec we proposed, it is only to move the reboot to end of cleaning - moving the reboot there so that available -> active is faster13:17
kubajjhttps://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic-specs/+/100805613:17
TheJuliaI guess I'm confused becaues it is there now, that seems disjointed from ptg outcome13:18
* TheJulia sips more coffee to try and complete the process of waking up13:18
kubajjJayF said he will look into the fast-track variant (was it that both the networks were the same?)13:20
TheJuliayeah, where both were the same, but the discussion shifted more towards being able to get to a default state where we still have the reboot and network switch for separate networks when that is a configured case, and *then* we go ahead and power the node on and get it ready to deploy without the actual deploy command being sent.13:22
kubajjyes, my spec covers clean wait -> cleaning -> cleaning (switch network, etc.) -> (wait to heartbeat) -> cleaning -> available13:27
cardoehttps://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/openstack-helm/+/1011047 what should our disk formats and container formats be for Ironic? And should we use centos9 as the default image or something else?13:29
JayFTheJulia: 13:44
JayFI'm going to start working about 30 minutes, please let me get a review in on that summary 13:45
TheJuliaI won’t send until after the meeting13:47
TheJuliakubajj: check the text now, I changed it to be more about end result13:54
dtantsurcardoe: IPA? 9 is fine but we're switching to 10 IIRC14:35
opendevreviewDmitry Tantsur proposed openstack/ironic-specs master: High-level workflows for BMC management  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic-specs/+/100620514:36
dtantsurcardoe: I've reworked ^^^ to add the foundation what you want to have for Dell too14:36
dtantsuralso cc TheJulia shermanm 14:36
dtantsurI've dropped the contencious step to delete all users and tried to find a middle ground between "too specific" and "too generic"14:37
dtantsurrpittau sorry, I might have ignored some of your feedback there, I'll check it in the next round14:37
rpittauno worries :)14:37
JayFTheJulia: I'm putting comments in line, a suggestion on LN #45 there, and I'm continuing to go :)14:37
dtantsuranyone cares about iLO 5 enough for me to do this hackery? https://redfishforum.com/post/3592/thread14:39
JayFI doubt my downstream needs NTP server settings that badly, but if we know how to, it's only a few lines of code to do it, right?14:39
JayFlike, I don't need it but what's the virtue in excluding it14:40
dtantsurKinda. It gets us into OEM support for iLO14:40
TheJuliadtantsur: as a single generic thing or "oem-ey hpe thing" ?14:40
dtantsurTheJulia: iLO 5 uses an OEM thingy instead of the generic one14:40
TheJuliaI'm not opinionated against it, I'm just more so thinking about framing14:40
dtantsurI'll mention it in the spec but won't outright commit to implementing it then :)14:41
JayFdocumenting how to do it and saying it could be done as a followup14:42
JayFmight be the best of all worlds; open the door if someone else wants to do it, but avoid the complication for mvp14:43
TheJuliaYeah, the annoying thing is its not even really denoted under the Oem resource either, its just kind of right there as an extra field14:43
TheJuliaJayF, please directly edit line 49 since it's a compound "end of summary" line throwing together a couple relatively quick items14:44
cardoedtantsur: well I meant the aki/ari values 14:44
dtantsurThat's a question for TheJulia. I think we abandoned them first, but then returned to them..14:45
JayFTheJulia: how does that look14:45
TheJuliaJayF: WDYT regarding the new sentence ending on line 5914:46
JayFTheJulia: for the line 90 section, part of me wonders if we should omit information at that level of committment from the email and leave it fro workitems14:47
TheJuliaJayF: the line 49 edit LGTM14:47
JayFTheJulia: what about my slight modify to line 5814:48
shermanmo/14:48
TheJuliaSo claude was trying to summarize committments, I don't think its the short term focus, the high level context is 2 years of work14:48
TheJuliathe short term focus as in the next 6 months is the overall work items doc14:48
JayFThat's not true, and hasn't ever been true. Work items is "stuff we're working on actively with no promise it gets done" -- there have been multi-cycle projects on there (TBN was one, so is the ongoing maintenance stuff)14:49
JayFI prefer having human-committments done that way because folks are effectively opting in thru gerrit review14:49
TheJuliaI've never seen it that way and nor have some folks I've worked with14:50
TheJuliaAnyway, focusing on that won't unblock us14:50
kubajjTheJulia: the new version is better14:51
TheJuliaSo we can remove the person from the notes14:51
JayFThen they aren't reading the intro that I've copy pasted across them for years14:51
JayFand the claude assignments are just wrong14:51
TheJuliadoes that seem reasonable, or are you thinking we condense it down further?14:51
JayFit assigned me to something I didn't offer to do14:51
opendevreviewDmitry Tantsur proposed openstack/ironic-specs master: High-level workflows for BMC management  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic-specs/+/100620514:51
dtantsurOkay, let's call it the next iteration. feedback welcome.14:51
JayFTheJulia: my remaining comments are marked with a (JayF).14:54
JayFSo who wants to write workitems if I don't do it? Apparently folks have been taking it as a commitment, and I am -2 to having the doc if it is taken as a commitment. It's an actively harmful thing to exist if folks are taking it as a roadmap.14:58
JayFand if TheJulia sees it that way, who else outside the community has?14:58
* dtantsur has never treated it as commitments14:58
JayFThis is something we *must* be on the same page for in order to do a PTG summary email or workitems doc effectively. 14:59
TheJulia.....14:59
TheJuliaI guess I'm hyper frustrated because the attempt is trying to paint a summary of what was discused, we can remove any assignment hint, but to completely wipe out topics is also actively harming ourselves.15:00
iurygregory_o/15:00
JayFI'm reading it and I'm skeptical of some of those assignments, because it says I volunteered to do something which was mostly just a "sure" to something someone else said15:00
TheJuliaI see the point in work items, but the base disconnect seems to be that your viewing it as multicycle goals, That has never been how I've viewed it, the short term priorities, and honestly to pave over items entirely or ignore them just doesn't help us overall15:00
JayFThey are "things we are spending time on this cycle" not "things we'll get done this cycle" or "things we started this cycle" - I usually read it for ongoing work and things we missed as an input going into PTG15:01
TheJuliaJayF: The one you say you didn't volunteer for, I actually remember you noting it and suggesting that forward, I'm sure your taking that as skeptical since something said obviously got recorded differently in the notes15:01
TheJuliaWhich is fine, its a discussion and its fast moving, it happens.15:01
JayFthe only time historically in review I've been  asked to remove something from it is when we weren't going to make any progress on it during a cycle15:02
dtantsurI personally treat names more like "areas of interest"15:02
dtantsurBtw, who's chairing the meeting today? We're a bit late15:02
JayFTheJulia: I was mainly trying to be a good sport for something that cardoe wanted :)15:02
dtantsuror did we cancel it?15:02
JayFit's not cancelled, I'll jfdi15:02
JayF#startmeeting ironic15:02
opendevmeetMeeting started Mon Oct 19 15:02:44 2026 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is JayF. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.15:02
opendevmeetUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:02
opendevmeetThe meeting name has been set to 'ironic'15:02
cardoewhat did I do?15:02
TheJuliacardoe: everything!15:02
JayF#topic Announcements/Reminders15:02
dtantsuro/15:02
* TheJulia assigns it all to caredoe15:02
TheJuliaerr, cardoe15:02
rpittauo/15:02
TheJuliao/15:03
Mahnooro/15:03
cardoeo/15:03
JayF#note Standing reminder to review patches tagged ironic-week-prio and to hashtag any patches ready for review with ironic-week-prio: https://tinyurl.com/ironic-weekly-prio-dash15:03
JayF#note R-22 -- 2027.1 Indri Release Schedule https://releases.openstack.org/indri/schedule.html15:03
kubajjo/15:03
JayFI wish our cycles didn't start until after PTG :)15:03
JayFonly 22 weeks left feels like not a lot lol15:03
TheJuliaheh, agreed15:04
JayFPlease take time to review stuff once we get done with the post PTG glow :)15:04
JayFIn that spirit, I'm going to proactively assume the Async IO working group has no updates15:04
JayFand I know that coresec team doesn't :)15:04
JayFThere are no discussion topics on the board for today.15:04
JayFThere was no bug deputy assigned as we wanted full attention on the PTG.15:05
* dtantsur is pondering a BMC management WG15:05
JayFSomeone wanna volunteer to be bug deputy next week? It will likely include catching up on bug triage, and triaging the influx of bugs we asked folks to file at the PTG: )15:05
TheJuliaI might be able to do such, I'm looking now and it looks like we had 5 new filed in ironic in the past week15:05
TheJuliaSome of those items are ptg related, but not all of them15:06
JayFdtantsur: I don't think that's a bad idea, I think really also there's just a question I have of "what is a working group" beyond just a group of people working on a thing updating in the meeting :)15:06
JayFdtantsur: in that sense it seems a bit ad-hoc15:06
dtantsurI really use it in this sense :)15:06
iurygregory_For the async IO, we are doing some tests downstream (that is all atm)15:07
JayFIn that sense I would posit the only thing you need to make a new WG is a friend, a name, and the edit button on the meeting agenda page ;) 15:07
JayF(I guess, >1 friend is preferred lol)15:07
TheJuliaWe should likely be cautious about splitting focuses each into new working groups15:07
TheJuliawe're only so many people15:07
TheJuliaand can't handle infinite subdivision15:07
JayFI think maybe, in context of the meeting, the value in a WG is a weekly nudge of "done anything?"15:08
TheJuliaYeah, I just don't want a bunch of different workgroups, because then otherwise we'll end up with an RDMA working group, and general networking working group, and an NVMe over TCP working group15:08
TheJuliaon top of everything else15:09
TheJuliaReally, we should keep it to concrete focus areas we want to revisit each week15:09
dtantsurIf there are >1 ppl more or less dedicated to them, why not?15:09
JayFwe can nest them all inside our working group working group ;) 15:09
iurygregory_meta wg (wg1, wg2...)15:10
iurygregory_=)15:10
JayFThe armrest of my desk chair just hit the power button on my desktop. Your regularly scheduled meeting moderator will return as soon as the desktop boots.15:10
TheJuliadoh15:10
JayFsomeone wanna 3d print me a molly guard lol15:10
JayFthis happens like once a month. I'm back.15:11
JayF#topic Open Discussion15:11
TheJuliaOur 3d printers are offline at this time15:11
cido/15:11
JayFseems to me like "role of the working group" and/or "workitems: what do they mean" could be discussed here still :) 15:11
iurygregory_I don't have a 3D printer =( (too expensive)15:11
TheJuliaYeah, true15:12
JayFbut we have almost nothing in the agenda, so kicking off open discussion for us to chat away the meeting :)15:12
TheJuliaSo, Regarding the doc, and to avoid rage writing and getting more frustrated, perhaps the idea is to delete the whole section and just say "we discussed many many many things, specific work items will be published in about a weke"15:12
TheJuliaweek15:12
TheJuliaThat way we get quick impacting and then draw a line to future follow-up with more specific detail15:13
JayFSo my mental model of it was gonna be: 1) PTG discussion email (things we chatted about at the PTG generally) 2) Workitems: executive summary of any of the things discussed at the PTG we were gonna make progress on this cycle (completed or not) 15:13
JayFso some of the wtf is me going "oh no, I'm not prepared to think about workitems yet" and shorting out a little lol15:14
JayFit feels like more of a committment than just "we talked about a bunch of stuff"15:14
TheJuliafair, and I already did my short-circuit over the weekend and have created a few items on my backlog already15:14
JayFand the discovery that some folks are treating workitems like a roadmap pushed that button harder15:14
TheJuliasorry :(15:14
JayFyeah I suspect you may have been processing PTG over the weekend instead of having a weekend lol15:14
JayFI still need a day or two lol15:14
TheJulia... The whole focus was "hey, there is like two years of things floating around"15:15
TheJuliaSo, then I'll dial it way back15:15
JayFI guess I've had the impression that's *always* true15:15
JayFthe Maint v2 stuff cid is working on started as a discussion in a PTG 1.5 years ago about DR 15:15
TheJuliaand say "a bunch of specifics coming soon, and if you don't like that or want more, you need to chime in.15:15
JayFand now it's turned into two cool features that are lined up over the next year :)15:15
TheJuliaYeah, but still also all relaint upon a pile of work staged which also need to make progress which was done but not landed and... yeah15:16
TheJuliajoy15:16
TheJuliathat is even harder to paint15:16
JayFI *always* feel like we're in that place15:16
JayFmaybe we are getting better at sharing context15:16
TheJuliaand likely means workitems specifically because we spent like 5 minutes on deferred tasks15:16
JayFinstead of vision questing between our own ears :D 15:16
TheJuliabut will hopefully be landing that this cycle15:16
JayFI sure as hell hope so, I want node bulk actions and that's lined up behind it :D 15:17
TheJuliaWait, that was an option?!15:17
TheJulialol15:17
JayFmost things get talked about at PTG and get put on a shelf labelled "eventually" :)15:17
JayFin that same vein: this is why I suggested to dtantsur that working groups are cheap15:18
TheJuliato see how things line up and enable forward progress, but one person's eventually can also be another's priority they expected last year15:18
JayFif someone was like "hey jay, wanna meet for 30 minutes on $day and share context about $project" I would be thrilled :D 15:18
TheJuliawe all need to figure out how to bridge $allthethings and somehow manage to keep our sanity and calm/cool/etc15:18
JayFTheJulia: yep, I think we all have our pet ones for that (bulk node actions is mine, maint v2 is cool but bulk actions is the real magic I want)15:18
* TheJulia wonders if we need meditation time15:18
cardoeif we were in person I'd give everyone a little piece of chocolate and let you all "wooosaaa" for a minute15:19
JayFcardoe: what makes you think this isn't the *effect* of sugary breakfast and caff ;) 15:19
TheJuliacardoe: also, I live in a state where a certian class of extracts are totally legal, and that is a common delivery mechanism.15:20
JayFIf there's no objection, I'm going to close out the meeting. At this point we've reached "normal IRC but the meetbot is listening in"15:20
* dtantsur nods15:20
TheJuliaJayF: ++15:20
JayFWho wants to run the next one?15:20
JayFI'll note: it does NOT have to be usual suspects15:20
TheJuliaI can, I think I was on the hook to run todays, thanks jayf15:20
JayFSomeone new build up some bravery to volunteer for next time :D 15:21
TheJulia+++++15:21
JayF#action TheJulia running Oct 26 meeting15:21
JayF#endmeeting15:21
opendevmeetMeeting ended Mon Oct 19 15:21:24 2026 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)15:21
opendevmeetMinutes:        https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/ironic/2026/ironic.2026-10-19-15.02.html15:21
opendevmeetMinutes (text): https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/ironic/2026/ironic.2026-10-19-15.02.txt15:21
opendevmeetLog:            https://meetings.opendev.org/meetings/ironic/2026/ironic.2026-10-19-15.02.log.html15:21
* TheJulia gets out the voluntell button15:21
TheJuliaJayF: so, back to the summary, you good with the overall idea, or should I condense things to go "we talked about these, but a concrete plan is going to surface with our cycle workitems doc" ?15:22
JayFI suggest just mentioning ongoing topics we discussed, that we expect to get attention this cycle, but that we'll more clearly communicate scope of them in Workitems? My big thing is just not wanting to say "Bob is doing X" without a gerrit change for bob to go "-1 oh hell no" on :D 15:23
rpittauquick request when someone has a moment, let's fix bifrost CI :) -> https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/bifrost/+/1009744 thanks15:24
JayFthe -minimal are way better anyway15:24
JayFcome straight from debootstrap instead of a cloud image15:24
JayF+2a15:25
rpittauyep15:25
TheJuliaJayF: okay, cool, I can sort that out in the next little bit then15:32
JayF(and yes, I am bob)15:32
* TheJulia glares at the loud truck grinding up a tree across the street15:32
TheJulia.... Have you ever seen the movie "what about bob?"15:33
JayFNo. I did watch a CBS Sunday Morning piece in the early 00s about the annual meeting of the Bobs.15:33
JayFYou have to be named "Bob" (or something that nicknames to "Bob") OR be actively bobbing (up and down like a fishing bobbin) 15:33
TheJuliawait... "the Bobs?"15:34
TheJuliaRutro, where did I put my innatech mug!15:34
JayFI tried a meeting of the Jays but the humans were run away by the millions of birds ;) 15:34
shermanmbtw, over the weekend I had a LLM stress test NGS against every switch emulator I could find, and maybe turned up some interesting things.15:34
JayFover the weekend I experienced relief from the stress of a long PTG through leisure activities15:35
dtantsur(same)15:36
JayFmaybe I need to write a how-to about weekending properly ;)15:36
TheJuliaAnyway, What about bob is a super weird movie, and it happens to be the only primeire I've been to. When I was a little kid I was staying with a friend for the weekend and their father was a lighting rigger for that movie so we went to the the showing.15:36
TheJuliaJayF: ++15:36
* dtantsur slept in a barrel15:36
TheJulia... how very "owly"15:36
dtantsurIndeed :)15:37
JayFhttps://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/z3E3IY7Y/2533.jpg15:37
dtantsurThey have some photos in https://www.camping-pilsensee.de/der-campingplatz/schlaffass/ if you're curious what that is15:37
JayFI was at Mulkiteo Landing outside of Everett at the PNW Ford EV Club15:37
JayFdtantsur: that looks too much like sauna I saw in Finland15:37
JayFdtantsur: fall asleep, all the sudden start getting steamed :D lol15:38
dtantsurJayF: no wonder, a finnish company supply them15:38
JayFthose are 100000% saunas then, just without the ... hot?15:38
dtantsuryep15:38
JayFthe PNW Ford EV Club is run by a guy high up in the security org at Microsoft 15:39
JayFpretty fun to chat with folks essentially on the other side of the industry lol15:39
dtantsura surprising place to talk about security :D15:40
JayFI mean an EV club in a tech-industry-heavy locale15:40
JayFI would've been surprised if it was all plumbers ;) 15:40
dtantsurheh15:40
* TheJulia grumbles about super loud truck griding a tree up across the street15:48
TheJuliaokay, loud noise making machine has been turned off for a while15:58
cardoealright so what do ya want me to read?16:23
cardoeAnd please review things in ironic-week-prio https://tinyurl.com/ironic-weekly-prio-dash16:24
cardoehttps://review.opendev.org/q/topic:%22tbn-fixes%22 are the pending TBN fixes16:24
cardoehttps://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/1010992 fixes an issue that openstacksdk is exposing that if you filter on the "owner" field but it's not scoping the request to a table so we get a SQLAlchemy error16:31
TheJuliaJayF: I've done a pass on the text after line 90 on https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/ironic-2027.1-ptg-summary16:40
TheJuliaOne note at present around line 12516:40
JayFreplied there16:41
TheJuliaI'm just going to drop the paragraph then16:41
JayFI'm fine with the new text, ty16:41
TheJuliaits noise16:41
JayFyeah I'm fine with that16:41
JayFit's all basically "Ironic is gonna do the thing Jay asked everyone to do mid-last-cycle"16:42
TheJulialast call on summary feedback16:42
cardoeI think ya did good with the summary16:45
TheJuliaI haven't run a spell checker on the content yet, which I need to do given I reworeded a bunch16:45
JayFThere was an ask in PTG for us to see if we can get a new release cut of lshw; I've reached out to the upstream here.17:04
JayFhttps://project.ezix.org/ticket/84317:04
opendevreviewVerification of a change to openstack/bifrost master failed: Use debian-minimal for DIB deployment images  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/bifrost/+/100974417:07
TheJulia++17:07
TheJuliaokay, sent17:17
TheJulia... now where did I put my brain17:17
opendevreviewJulia Kreger proposed openstack/ironic-specs master: WIP Add spec for console snapshots and recording  https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic-specs/+/101136818:44
cardoeno specs... fix-y bugs19:48
JayFcardoe: https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/ironic/+/1010315/1#message-9799f8627e5c4671842dc266f19aa32d4c5c42d5 I have the overwhelming feeling I'm missing something obvious here20:19
cardoeTis why I wanted to discuss during the PTG as to what the expected use case is here20:22
cardoeBut we've never had the check you're asking for.20:22
JayFso you're saying that right now20:22
JayFI can take a runbook, public=false, owner=someone_else20:22
JayFand do things on it?20:22
JayFer, use it to provision?20:22
cardoeno.20:23
cardoeYou must be the runbook owner to run a runbook always.20:23
cardoeRight now20:23
JayFok20:24
cardoerb.owner==project_id upon which you are role:admin OR role:manager20:24
JayFI follow now20:24
JayFyou slid the lego into place20:24
cardoeI've got a docs patch that's making a table20:25
JayFI'm going to ask public= to be changed on that check_runbook method, to something like "public_runbook_ok"20:25
JayFor something like that20:25
JayFto make it so it doesn't read so WTF on the surface reading20:25
cardoeokay20:25
JayFcomment on there, ideally we'd also add some of those yaml auth tests20:28
JayFbut if you don't have time, let me know and/or file a bug so we can follow up20:28
JayFI don't want this to regress, and if those tests were properly done when this was written it wouldn't have slipped by20:28

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