Wednesday, 2019-04-24

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openstackgerritMichael Johnson proposed openstack/octavia master: Update some octavia documentation
johnsomTrivial docs fixes ^^^00:24
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johnsomAnd the gates are broken due to the hostname change:
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openstackgerritcaoyuan proposed openstack/octavia master: Replace URLs with URLs
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openstackgerritReedip proposed openstack/octavia-tempest-plugin master: Support skipping APP_COOKIE and HTTP_COOKIE
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openstackgerritMerged openstack/octavia master: Fix listener API handling of None/null updates
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rm_workfor the record, I am not a huge fan of the new meeting time T_T11:32
rm_workhopefully will wake up in time11:32
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ArchiFleKsHi, I have octavia load balancer stuck on pending_update, when I restarted the octavia services, I see no reconcialiation happening, I don't really know what to do except in in the octavia DB directly but i'd like to avoid that, I'm on queens.13:12
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johnsomArchiFleKs That will happen if you don't gracefully shutdown the processes. It's best to not kill -9, but use -15.13:32
johnsomArchiFleKs At this point the only solution is to mark it ERROR in the DB. I have a patch in progress that should improve this cleanup in the future:
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ArchiFleKsjohnsom:alright thanks for your answer13:37
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openstackgerritMichael Johnson proposed openstack/octavia master: Update some octavia documentation
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* rm_work makes zombie noises16:00
cgoncalvesrm_work, you're the PTL. take control ;)16:01
rm_workuhh k let's see here16:01
rm_work#startmeeting Octavia16:02
openstackMeeting started Wed Apr 24 16:02:13 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is rm_work. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Octavia)"16:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'octavia'16:02
rm_workHey folks!16:02
ataraday_hello everyone16:02
rm_workSorry for the slightly late start, still getting the hang of this16:02
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rm_work#topic Announcements16:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: Octavia)"16:03
rm_workThe summit and PTG is next week!16:03
rm_worknot sure how to make that an official annoucement thing16:04
johnsomAre you cancelling any of the weekly IRC meetings?16:04
johnsomit is #topic <topic>16:04
johnsomOh, you got it16:04
rm_workah i guess there's no real sub-topic stuff16:05
rm_workso anyway, yeah. next week: summit+ptg!16:05
rm_workshould we have a meeting? what do people think?16:05
rm_work#startvote Should we have a meeting next week? Yes No16:06
openstackBegin voting on: Should we have a meeting next week? Valid vote options are Yes, No.16:06
openstackVote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.16:06
johnsomI vote to cancel next week at least16:06
johnsom#vote No16:06
cgoncalves#vote No16:06
rm_worklook at all of this democracy happening right now16:06
rm_workit warms my heart16:06
rm_work#vote No16:06
johnsomAlready with the votes... lol16:06
rm_workthis is what you get when you make me wake up at 9am :D16:06
rm_workok no more votes?16:08
rm_workI think that's prolly clear anyway16:08
openstackVoted on "Should we have a meeting next week?" Results are16:08
openstackNo (3): rm_work, johnsom, cgoncalves16:08
rm_workOk. So, meeting next week is cancelled!16:08
johnsomShall we count the hanging chads?16:08
rm_workAny other announcements?16:09
johnsomIf you haven't noticed, infra made some big changes last week.16:09
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rm_workOh yes! Everything is officially moved to OpenDev.org16:09
johnsomAll of the openstack git repos have changed to opendev.org16:09
johnsomYou may need to update some of your .gitreview files.16:10
rm_workCongrats infra for a relatively smooth transfer16:10
johnsomAlso, most important, Depends-On links to the old domain break and may need to be updated on open reviews.16:10
rm_workassuming you used a full URL, yes16:11
rm_workI don't think I ever did it that way...16:11
johnsomYeah, I am super happy about the gitea move. The old git web was horrible16:11
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johnsomWhen are you going to set the schedule for the PTG based on the etherpad?16:12
rm_workHmmm, that is a great question16:12
rm_workI think I might delegate the official PTG planner role16:13
rm_workAny takers? johnsom? :D16:13
* johnsom forgot how fun it is to not be the PTL16:13
rm_workLet's see if I can make you un-forget ^_^16:13
johnsomI will work on that today/tomorrow16:14
rm_work#action johnsom to make PTG schedule from the planning etherpad16:14
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johnsomOh, one more announcement. Stackalytics is in theory fixed.16:14
rm_workit was broken?16:14
johnsomYeah, it was given random results.16:14
rm_workmissed that16:14
johnsomAt one point I had only contributed less code for Stein than I had in a single patch16:15
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rm_workOk, I think that's it for announcements then16:17
rm_work#topic Brief progress reports / bugs needing review16:17
*** openstack changes topic to "Brief progress reports / bugs needing review (Meeting topic: Octavia)"16:17
rm_workAnyone have anything for this?16:17
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johnsomI do, lol16:18
rm_worklink away!16:18
ataraday_I've got request for review of my change16:18
cgoncalvesnot much from my side. Easter break Friday to Tuesday16:18
johnsomI created a feature matrix for provider drivers:16:18
johnsomThe styling will improve once my fixes to sphinx-feature-matrix releases16:19
colin-nice thanks16:19
ataraday_Just not sure it is for this section or for open disscussion  -
johnsomI also started a patch to help the "non-graceful shutdown" situation16:19
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johnsomI think this is part one of a few patches in this space as interim until we fix flow resumption.16:20
rm_workI may agree with Ann there16:20
rm_workdepending on the timeline we have for real flow resumes16:20
johnsomYeah, let's talk about that patch in open discussion. I have some thoughts there16:21
rm_workand whether or not there's a ton of additional setup for that, where this might help in a larger portion of installs16:21
johnsomOther than those I have been working on our slides for the summit presentations.16:21
colin-we see resources in the state johnsom's patch describes from time to time so will be watching that one to see how discussion goes16:22
rm_workit actually looks like the patch ataraday_ linked is an alternate to the "temp solution"16:22
rm_workie, until we get real task resume, just allow deleting the bad ones16:22
rm_workmight be less complexity16:23
johnsomWell, my patch requires no manual intervention16:23
rm_workwell, does anyone else have anything for this topic? or can we move directly to open discussion and talk about this?16:23
johnsomI have one other quick topic I would like to add to the agenda if I can.16:24
rm_worksure, whatsit?16:24
johnsomTrain features16:24
rm_workah, sure -- though I figured we'd do that major discussion during the PTG16:24
rm_work#topic Train Features16:25
*** openstack changes topic to "Train Features (Meeting topic: Octavia)"16:25
johnsomI am creating our "project update" slides for the summit.16:25
johnsomThis deck includes a slide on anticipated features for Train.16:25
johnsomRight now all I have is: retire neutron-lbaas, log offloading, and VIP ACLs.16:26
johnsomDoes anyone else have any features they plan to work on for Train they would like included in this slide?16:26
rm_worki'd still like to get "members as a base resource" done16:26
rm_workgot a good start on that already16:27
rm_worknot sure if it's really major enough to list on that slide tho16:27
johnsomOk, I can include that if you would like16:27
* rm_work shrugs16:27
ataraday_If the work on taskflow will be accepeted - I can work on that16:27
colin-we're anticipating active/active and support for a container based driver. when is the release date for train?16:27
johnsomOk, I just wanted to ask if there were other features planned for Train16:28
johnsomFeature freeze for Train is the week of Sept 9th16:28
rm_workI think officially, we'll be deciding the feature goals at the PTG, so maybe just say something to that effect -- "this is a preliminary list, we'll be discussing more at the PTG, please join us"16:28
johnsomRight, it always has the disclaimer16:29
johnsomataraday_ If you have resource to work on that I will add it. I might also be able to help that effort.16:29
rm_workthen that's probably fine16:29
rm_workataraday_: yeah, what we prioritize is largely based on what people are able to commit time for -- we'll accept whatever you think you can do :)16:30
johnsomcolin- Are there lines you would like me to add for your efforts on Train?16:30
colin-the etherpad topics cover what we're interested in, was just reveiewing that16:30
rm_workoooo, neutron-lbaas deprecation is THIS CYCLE, really? for realsies?16:31
johnsomThis presentation happens before the PTG, so it's a bit "guestimation"16:31
colin-we haven't organized around it internally but understand both those bodies of work need sponsors atm16:31
rm_workwhat a time to be alive16:31
rm_workand to be PTL :D16:31
ataraday_I'm the resource and as I spend some time on this topic, I can do more to make it happen :)16:31
rm_workcolin-: yes, both are things we'd love to see, but both have had people come, do work, and disappear16:32
rm_workso it's really hard to say -- right now we don't have people actively active/active-ing16:32
rm_workand containers is ???16:32
johnsomCool, I will add flow resumption as a Train feature goal16:32
rm_workwhatever you can commit to doing is appreciated16:32
colin-understood, that aligns with where we thought those were. and johnsom has helpfully shared the relevant links to what was most recently done on active/active16:33
johnsomHa, we have a working lxd proof of concept (if you turn all of the container security off)16:33
rm_workwhat about with zun?16:33
colin-nova-lxd i'm guessing16:33
colin-that sounds pretty cool16:33
johnsomYes, with nova-lxd.16:33
colin-thanks will check those out!16:34
johnsomThere is no way I would actually use that stuff though.  It is a bit messy16:35
rm_workok, should we move to open discussion then? did we cover this adequately?16:35
johnsom+1 thanks for the feedback!16:36
colin-we did for my part ty16:36
rm_work#topic Open Discussion16:36
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Octavia)"16:36
rm_workI have something for this, but we can resume your thing first16:36
johnsomMy biggest concern with starting to add --force flags is it is overriding our object locking/ownership system. The only way that command could be used safely is if the operator checks that none of the controllers are actively working on the object before using the --force.16:38
johnsomFor example, HM failovers will set PENDING_*.16:38
johnsomIt also still requires operator intervention.16:39
ataraday_My concern that now operator goes in db and manually set status to delete, I think we should try to avoid this as much as possible...16:39
johnsomOperators also can do this operation against the DB if it is really necessary. It seems like --force makes it too easy to abuse.16:40
cgoncalvesIIRC it all comes down to not trusting on our admin users16:40
rm_workwell, would --force be allowed for admin only, or anyone?16:40
rm_workhopefully admin?16:40
ataraday_why not to trust? Admin should now stuff16:40
johnsomThe cases we know of that can lead to PENDING_ in a stuck state are "kill -9" or loss of a controller mid-flow.16:41
rm_workyeah ok just re-read the commit message16:41
cgoncalvesataraday_, "should" is the keyword ;)16:41
colin-ataraday_: agreed, we cannot sustain a model where our operators are required to update octavia's tables with any regularity16:41
colin-it's too risky16:41
rm_workcolin-: is this happening with regularity?!16:41
johnsomThat is why I approached it as, have the controller look for things it owns on startup and correct the status for those.16:41
rm_workadmins are doing `kill -9` to octavia services with regularity? lol16:41
colin-no, but that is only one way to induce the symptom the change describes16:42
rm_workwhat are other ways?16:42
colin-at least, we're not killing processes that way16:42
johnsomYeah, I think the common case is mis-configured systemd service definitions where systemd gives up and kill -916:42
ataraday_I add check for time - how long loadbalancer was not updated, is not this enough to be safe?16:42
cgoncalvesrm_work, not 'kill -9' per se. I think it's more cloud updates, controller reboots (scheduled or not)16:42
colin-agree with cgoncalves16:43
johnsomStill a reboot should be graceful shutdown if the systemd service is configured correctly.16:43
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rm_workpersonally I think ataraday_'s approach does make sense, but16:43
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rm_workdo we need either of this if we think we can complete real job resumes within the cycle?16:43
johnsomNo, but that is a lot of work.16:44
rm_workwouldn't it be better to just prioritize doing that, and not add a bunch of other extra complexity?16:44
colin-certainly the need for it is less (gone?) if we guarantee they can't get into that state ever16:44
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rm_workof course, I was also a fan of an admin "sync" type command in the past, so16:45
johnsomThere is also a failure point with oslo messaging/rabbit. If those are not setup correctly and the queue gets lost, we could end up with PENDING_*.  That is another discussion.16:45
cgoncalvespersonally I'd like to have an interim solution that is backportable but I understand if it cannot be done. if we agree it's not, I'd run to document the steps that should be taken to prevent killing flows unnecessarily (pre-maintenance window actions) and corrective actions if too late/unexpected controller reboots16:45
colin-oh i hadn't considered that but yeah16:45
colin-there'd be instructions octavia thinks are eventually going to complete still16:46
ataraday_I think we need --force, as operator should not goes in db :) I don't think it will finised in one cicle at least only in experimental mode16:46
johnsomYeah, neither of these are backportable solutions.16:46
johnsomI might be convinced to setup a periodic job as well. That would be backport-able.  We just need to figure out the right conditions for it.16:47
rm_workwhen i brought up sync in the past, my argument had been "we're not going to catch all the cases, why can't we have a way to fix the stuff we can't predict" so I'd feel hypocritical arguing against ataraday_ here16:47
johnsomWhat we really want is a consensus protocol such that all the controllers can say "I'm not working on that  object".16:48
rm_workyes, that would work if we could figure out a way to do it16:48
rm_workwould people be ok making this a topic for the PTG for a larger discussion? it's only a week away16:48
colin-yes, it seems complex enough16:48
rm_workit's a small delay but we could get a more well researched and agreed consensus there16:48
johnsomSadly ataraday_ Can't join us at the PTG16:48
rm_workwe usually set up video-conf16:49
johnsomBTW, I will give my normal caveat, I am not a hard now on the --force thing. I just want us to consider all the ramifications of going down that path before we add it and can't remove it.16:50
rm_workyes, the "can't remove it" thing is my main worry16:51
cgoncalveswe could do that, yes. question is if ataraday_ would be available. since there's no agenda schedule fixed yet, we could also consider ataraday_'s timezone16:51
rm_workwe have to be fully committed to API changes16:51
johnsomYes, I can schedule to people's availability16:51
rm_workataraday_: can you remotely attend part of the PTG?16:52
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rm_worki think we say "hopefully" and plan to discuss it at the PTG16:53
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rm_workor is ataraday present16:53
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johnsomI think she is in Europe, so I will try to put in an early morning timeslot if we don't hear otherwise.16:54
rm_workok, sounds good to me16:54
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rm_workI had a topic too, though we're a bit short on time16:54
rm_workWe're discussing internally about adding support (upstream-first) for Athenz authentication for amphora/control-plane communications (to replace the local cert generation)16:55
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ataraday_sorry, I got disconnected16:56
rm_workI actually don't know enough about it personally yet to know if it'd be as simple as another driver like the Anchor thing, or if we'd need to modify things significantly16:56
johnsomrm_work would it replace the local cert capability, or just be another driver option?16:56
rm_workbut it's on my roadmap to find out, and probably I'll have more for discussion at the PTG16:56
rm_workI don't think it could actually replace local-cert-gen16:57
johnsomataraday_ We asked if there was a chance we could video conference you in for the discussion at the PTG? Is there a timeslot that would work for you?16:57
rm_worksince that is the most basic and we'd want that for simple deployments and testing stuff regardless16:57
rm_workwouldn't want to make athenz a hard requirement16:57
rm_workbut it might be a good optional thing16:57
johnsomYeah, I think as another driver option I don't see any reason why not.16:57
rm_workI was curious if anyone else uses any kind of in-house sshca system16:58
johnsomIt's an Apache license, so not a concern there either16:58
rm_workwe use this internally at Verizon Media (formerly known as Oath, formerly known as Yahoo), as it was born here16:58
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rm_workbut this is a fairly common thing (authz / authn) and if there are other similar things, it might be worth trying to make it a generic pattern16:59
johnsomWe still need to "retire" the anchor stuff from the octavia rep16:59
rm_workyeah, I can do that around the same time16:59
rm_workwe can discuss this one more at the PTG also17:00
rm_workwell, we're out of time17:00
rm_workthanks for coming everyone!17:00
ataraday_I'm in UTC+4 zone, sure I will try to connect for  PTG disscussion - just set up time and send me a link :)17:00
rm_workcool, thanks ataraday_ :)17:00
*** openstack changes topic to "Discussions for OpenStack Octavia | Train PTG etherpad:"17:00
openstackMeeting ended Wed Apr 24 17:00:42 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:00
openstackMinutes (text):
rm_workI hate this timeslot T_T17:01
ataraday_thanks everyone17:01
* rm_work tries to go back to sleep17:01
johnsomataraday_ If you are still around, I'm putting it down for 9am denver time on Friday, which is 19:00 your time. Would that work?17:03
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ataraday_johnsom, sounds great! Thanks!17:11
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xgermancompletely forgot we changed the timeā€¦17:59
xgermanwill add to my calebdar so I cn lurk i t he future17:59
xgermanin a previous life I got meeting invites from johnsom but rm_work...18:05
rm_workYeah I still get my meeting invites from johnsom18:06
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colin-i forgot too but just happened to be looking heh18:41
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colin-can we use scheduler hints anywhere when it comes to amphora?21:24
colin-(the nova concept)21:24
colin-i think not but wasn't certain21:24
johnsomWe use the anti-affinity filter in nova to not co-locate the active and standby amphora21:26
johnsomIf they are available on the nova "flavor" you also have opportunity to set those on the nova flavor Octavia uses.21:27
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openstackgerritMichael Johnson proposed openstack/octavia stable/stein: Fix listener API handling of None/null updates
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