Tuesday, 2014-06-10

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openstackgerritVictoria Martínez de la Cruz proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Refactor auxiliary methods for MongoDB unit tests  https://review.openstack.org/9891603:09
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openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Updated from global requirements  https://review.openstack.org/9903312:28
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sriramGood Morning! :)13:05
flaper87sriram: yo13:06
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sriramhey all, we need some eyes on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97534/ :)14:23
sriramflaper87, malini1 : ^14:24
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openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Updated from global requirements  https://review.openstack.org/9903314:35
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openstackgerritOpenStack Proposal Bot proposed a change to openstack/python-marconiclient: Updated from global requirements  https://review.openstack.org/9909314:39
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malini1tht is a single click meeting14:58
kgriffsbe there or be square14:59
openstackgerritAlex Bettadapur proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Decoupled Unit Tests  https://review.openstack.org/9753414:59
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openstackgerritAlex Bettadapur proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Re-enable tests affected by #1321840  https://review.openstack.org/9911715:03
abettadapurmalini: ^15:04
malini1I'll +2 to it as soon as it gets the jenkins blessing15:05
malini1thanks abettadapur15:05
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openstackgerritAlex Bettadapur proposed a change to openstack/marconi: V1.1 Functional Tests  https://review.openstack.org/9329515:33
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openstackgerritAlex Bettadapur proposed a change to openstack/marconi: V1.1 Functional Tests  https://review.openstack.org/9329515:48
flaper87I'll be back in a bit16:01
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tjanczuk_I could not agree more with kgriff's last comment about API being the product. That is exactly why the shape of the API requires most discussion.16:03
vkmcflaper87, sorry for the delayed response, I'm having problems with my Internet connection16:03
vkmctoo much lag -.-16:03
vkmckgriffs, as you mentioned during the meeting, we have to discuss which are the benefits of supporting AMQP since it's semantics is quite difficult to map to Marconi16:08
vkmcs/is quite/are quite16:09
tjanczuk_vkmc: so what problems did you run into with AMQP 1.0? Let's compare notes with 0.9.16:12
vkmctjanczuk_, first of all, the queues management are not possible to map with current API16:14
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vkmcI think it's the same for AMQP 0.9, right?16:14
tjanczuk_vkmc: on 0.9 you can create, check for existence, and delete a queue. But listing queues is not possible. However, with Rabbit you can call into HTTP based management endpoint to list queues.16:15
vkmctjanczuk_, well there is more control in AMQP 0.9 over queues, in AMQP 1.0 only creation is available16:16
vkmcI should check out if there is a way to delete (at least) without depending on the Proton library16:17
kgriffsvkmc, tjanczuk_: I am assuming it is not possible to page through messages given a marker?16:18
tjanczuk_No, paging is not possible. Strict queue semantics applies.16:19
vkmckgriffs, same goes for AMQP 1.0 ^^16:19
vkmcalso, the notion of Id present in AMQP 1.0 is not the same as the one in Marconi16:20
tjanczuk_One other key problem with AMQP 0.9 is that messages can only be acknowledged through the same AMQP channel they were originally received on. That means the "claim creation" and "message deletion" requests must have server affinity. Is that a problem with 1.0 as well?16:20
vkmcIds in AMQP are intended to guarantee uniqueness, so we cannot get messages by id or delete messages by id as we do in Marconi16:21
kgriffsvkmc: oh, so an ID is not used for requests, it is just for the clients to distinguish copies of the same message?16:22
vkmckgriffs, exactly16:22
tjanczuk_Message IDs are also a non-concept in AMQP 0.9. The only meaningul IDs are the delivery tags roughly corresponding to claim IDs in Marconi. These are transient IDs issued at the time message is consumed that can be used to permanently delete it. Similar to SQS, and Azure.16:22
vkmcno tjanczuk_, in AMQP 1.0 acks can be sent over a new connection16:22
tjanczuk_vkmc, great, so AMQP 1.0 fixed that problem.16:23
vkmcyeah :)16:24
tjanczuk_vkmc: how do you identify the message you want to ack in AMQP 1.0?16:24
vkmctjanczuk_, messages have an additional property, reply-to, which is later used by the consumer to send the ack16:26
tjanczuk_Is there a concept of "ack all messages I received until a particular reply-to"?16:27
tjanczuk_sort of batch ack?16:27
vkmcin conjunction with the correlation-id, another field in AMQP 1.0 message16:27
tjanczuk_So how does that model map onto the Marconi's claim model which maps 1 claim ID to multiple message IDs?16:28
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vkmcwell that's something up to the application using Proton... as far as I know there is no such concept in the lib16:30
vkmctjanczuk_, the correlation-id is a client-specific id that can be used for claims operations16:31
tjanczuk_well, *you* are writing that application. How would you map the 1-N Marconi model onto AMQP 1.0? I am asking because it does not map to AMQP 0.9 too well. Basically the "create claim" implementation with 0.9 would have to always return a single message to normalize the claim-message relationship to 1-1.16:32
tjanczuk_(Which, needless to say, would diminish performance)16:32
vkmcthe main problem with claims is that we require two ids, the message-id and the claim-id16:34
vkmcin AMQP 1.0 we don't have a direct way to get messages by id16:34
tjanczuk_Yes, this is also my observation. Would it help AMQP 1.0 if claimIDs were associated with individual messages and created at the time they are consumed? This is the SQS and Azure model, and maps very well to AMQP 0.9.16:36
vkmccurrently I cannot come up with an algorithm to tackle this because AMQP follows, as you mentioned, an strict queue sematic16:36
vkmcit happens the same as with AMQP 0.9, but I'm looking into new attributes in AMQP messages to maybe find a decent solution16:37
vkmcthat would help yeah16:37
tjanczuk_Any other take-aways from AMQP 1.0?16:39
vkmcI'll get in touch with Proton devs before the end of this week, maybe they will be able to clear some of this doubts16:40
vkmctjanczuk_, no, just what we discussed so far... unfortunately these conform the core functionality of Marconi16:41
kgriffsI just want to thank you both for your work on this so far. It is yielding a ton of good info!16:42
tjanczuk_After I got blocked implementing Rabbit driver under current APIs, I took the liberty to experiment with what a "core" set of HTTP APIs that reflect messaging semantics could look like.16:43
* flaper87 back16:43
vkmcthanks kgriffs16:44
flaper87re kafka http://www.infoq.com/articles/apache-kafka16:44
vkmclunch brb16:45
tjanczuk_I was trying to take a miminalist approach that allows a performant implementation with NoAQL as well as AMQP. It also adds WebSockets. A prototype is at https://github.com/tjanczuk/narconi. The protocol has only 6 endpoints. I am curious about your thoughts?16:45
tjanczuk_vkmc: in particular, would this ^^^ HTTP API facilitate AMQP 1.0 implementation? I know it does AMQP 0.9 because I have it working.16:46
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vkmcthanks tjanczuk_, I'll take a look :)16:51
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kgriffsbtw, everyone, please please please spend some time today reviewing our patch backlog. We need to cut the j-2 milestone tomorrow17:13
kgriffssee also:17:13
kgriffsthanks in advance!17:14
kgriffsmalini1: ping17:16
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sriramkgriffs: lazy queue create requires refactored unit tests. -> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97534/17:22
sriramdo we want to put that as well in j-1?17:22
kgriffsyes, I am reviewing it now17:22
sriramthanks! I'll review as well.17:23
openstackgerritAlex Bettadapur proposed a change to openstack/marconi: V1.1 Functional Tests  https://review.openstack.org/9329517:27
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kgriffsabettadapur: I added some comments to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/97534/17:38
malini1kgriffs: pong17:41
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openstackgerritMalini Kamalambal proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Implement POP in v1.1 API  https://review.openstack.org/9020218:04
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kgriffsmalini1: re  "check queue exists"18:04
kgriffsin v1.118:04
kgriffsi think we agreed to remove it18:05
kgriffswould you mind taking care of the paper work?18:05
kgriffsmeaning, update the v1.1 spec (remove that section, also remove from the summary list of endpoints, and add a note to the breaking changes list)18:05
malini1kgriffs: sure18:06
kgriffsfinally, register a blueprint and make the umbrella v1.1 spec depend on it18:06
malini1on it now18:06
kgriffsthe bp should be scheduled for j-2 with high priority18:06
abettadapur@kgriffs: thanks :)18:11
abettadapurkgriffs: with regards to v1_1/test_claims.py:test_lifecyle, is there a good reason for this to be such a large test?18:12
abettadapurkgriffs: ^18:13
kgriffsabettadapur: i suppose we wanted to test an end-to-end scenario from start to finish - post a message, read it, claim it, delete it18:13
kgriffsFWIW everyone, I just added some more content to our FAQ: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions_(Marconi)18:14
kgriffsyou can point people there when they have questions on the ML or IRC if you get tired of repeating yourself18:14
kgriffsmalini1, flaper87: ^^^18:14
flaper87kgriffs: awesome, thanks18:15
flaper87kgriffs: btw, can we get rid of the (Marconi) ?18:15
flaper87Why isn't that page under wiki/Marconi/ ?18:15
kgriffsshort answer: mediawiki sucks18:15
flaper87link parsers don't like () :P18:16
kgriffsmediawiki was designed with the tenant in mind that the world is flat18:16
flaper87kgriffs: waaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute, isn't it?18:16
kgriffswell, you know18:16
kgriffsanyway, i spent a lot of time fighting MediaWiki to get it to display nice page titles when you use a hierarchical page scheme18:17
kgriffsalso looked at some other project's pages18:17
kgriffsfor the most part, other projects seem to keep most of their stuff on a single page18:17
kgriffsso that didn't give me any clues18:17
kgriffsthen I dug into the bowels of the MediWiki docs18:18
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kgriffsI found some special markup that might allow you to customize page titles18:18
kgriffsbut it didn't work in OpenStack's deployment18:18
kgriffsthe only way to have nice page titles is to have flat titles18:19
kgriffssorry, I mean flat URL page names18:19
flaper87erm, not worth wasting our time there18:19
kgriffsotherwise your titles end up like "Marconi/Foo/Bar Bang thing"18:19
kgriffsanyway, I decided to make peace with MediaWiki and do it the "WikiPedia" way18:20
kgriffspersonally, I still think migrating to MediaWiki was a bad decision, but I rest my case.18:20
flaper87I don't even remember what were we using before media wiki18:21
flaper87was it just LP ?18:21
kgriffsno, it was some python-based thing.18:22
* kgriffs tries to remember18:22
openstackgerritSriram Madapusi Vasudevan proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Implement Lazy Create Queue in v1.1 API  https://review.openstack.org/9180418:22
flaper87moin moin ?18:22
flaper87I don't remember18:22
kgriffsthat sounds right18:22
malini1kgriffs: I found this one from the sahara team https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sahara/+spec/savanna-renaming18:26
malini1hope they have done all the homework for us :)18:27
flaper87malini1: savanna is now sahara18:27
malini1flaper87: yeah..this one is the work they did for renaming18:27
flaper87oh cool18:27
* flaper87 steals ideas18:27
malini1we might have to just follow the same steps18:27
malini1flaper87: wait..tht is my expertise ;)18:28
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kgriffsgood find18:32
kgriffsi gotta run for a bit18:32
kgriffsmalini1, flaper87: please please help review our patch backlog. I will be doing that myself when I get back. I'd like to get as much as possible in j-118:32
kgriffs(otherwise, things have a tendency for going on forever - student syndrome :p)18:33
kgriffsflaper87, malini1, alcabrera, sriram: also this is blocking our release of the client: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/98901/18:33
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vkmctum tum tum18:36
vkmctjanczuk_, your implementation looks great18:40
flaper87kgriffs|afk: +@18:42
flaper87kgriffs|afk: +218:42
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openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/python-marconiclient: chore: Bump version to 0.0.2 in preparation for bugfix release  https://review.openstack.org/9890118:51
vkmckgriffs|afk, flaper87 when the poc for AMQP should be ready?18:52
malini1flaper87: how do I handle config options tht have been renamed in v1.1 . for the pop stuff I renamed max_messages_per_claim, & the v1 functional tests are failing because of tht19:01
malini1I tried adding the deprecated_name option, tht doesnt help :(19:02
malini1See https://review.openstack.org/#/c/90202/5/marconi/queues/transport/validation.py19:03
sriramit should be deprecated_opts i think19:03
malini1thanks sriram! I'll give tht a try19:07
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tjanczuk_vkmc: thanks! What issues would you see in supporting AMQP 1.0 behind these HTTP APIs?19:50
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kgriffsmalini: that's odd about deprecated_name20:53
kgriffsdeprecated_name was used in marconi/marconi/queues/transport/validation.py20:54
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flaper87malini: deprecated_name and deprecated_opts should work21:06
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flaper87vkmc: mmh, before the feature freeze for sure, it'd be nice to have it by the end of J-221:07
vkmcflaper87, ok, I'm going all in :)21:08
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kgriffsmy question is how much do we need to implement before we can decide what to do with our API - if/whether it makes sense to do backends that don't support message feed part of the API?21:09
kgriffsI guess to settle the performance question we need redis driver with pooling as well as a broker like qpid or kafka, right?21:10
kgriffsunfortunately, that will require implementing most of the drivers - but perhaps cheating on stuff like dealing with adding/removing nodes (in the case of redis) - we may be able to make some simplifying assumptions for AMQP as well21:11
vkmckgriffs, IMHO it's important for Naav to *try* adding support for widely used technologies as AMQP21:14
vkmckgriffs, but it doesnt' make much sense to change every detail in our API just to add support for some backend21:14
vkmckgriffs, I'm trying to simplify as much as possible the implementation by learning what are the core functionalities expected from AMQP users and mapping it with Naav21:16
kgriffsvkmc: I just want to make sure we understand what we are getting ourselves into! We are doing some rather involved science projects right now, but we aren't sure how they will turn out21:16
flaper87kgriffs: I think we'll know when it's enough. The fact that we have some doubts already means that it won't be long before we make our final decision21:16
vkmcyeah of course :/21:16
vkmc+1 flaper8721:17
flaper87another question to ask is: If we find out AMQP is not the way to go, would we still have time to support another backend?21:17
kgriffsalso, I just want to try and get these drivers to the point that we can make reasonable guesses as to their long-term viability without having to go all the way to a production-ready implementation21:17
flaper87That question is raised by the fact that redis is not a drop-in replacement for mongodb21:17
flaper87which means we would get to the end of J with still just mongodb21:17
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flaper87I don't believe that's something we should do21:18
kgriffsyeah, that makes me nervous. I think if this pans out, we would have something comparable to mongo: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/marconi/+spec/redis-pool21:18
kgriffswell, we have redis, AMQP 1.0 and Kafka as the forerunners, right?21:19
flaper87kgriffs: right, although I was digging more into kafka now and the driver would still require some changes in the API21:20
flaper87but don't take my word on that21:20
flaper87I need to investigate more21:20
* flaper87 speaks as if people usually take his word21:20
flaper87also, I really don't like the fact it basically depends on zookeeper21:22
kgriffsflaper87: btw, we need to cut j-1 tomorrow. We got behind on our reviews and so we may have to push most of the patches into j-221:22
kgriffsbut, I am trying to get things reviewed as quickly as possible. Let's keep reminding people to catch up on the backlog. I want to minimize how much of j-2 is taken up by j-1 slips21:23
flaper87damn, ok! TBH, J-1 happened too soon, I didn't remember it was this week21:23
flaper87kgriffs: I'll do a bunch of reviews tomorrow21:23
flaper87kgriffs: ignore my /shard/pool/ patch and the flavor ones21:23
kgriffsflaper87: the first milestone always seems like a rush since it takes time to deal with the fallout from the summit21:23
flaper87those can be reviewed for J-221:23
flaper87kgriffs: yeah21:24
kgriffs#link https://launchpad.net/marconi/+milestone/juno-121:24
flaper87lets move the health one21:24
flaper87and the redis storage21:25
kgriffsflaper87: that bp was just to have a POC - didn't need to be merged into the main repo (indeed, I think all these new drivers should exist externally until we sort out which ones are going to be viable)21:26
kgriffs(re redis)21:26
kgriffsand health, yeah21:27
flaper87kgriffs: so based on my readings, kafka API is based on streams21:27
kgriffsflwang popped in a couple days ago then disapeared again. :(21:27
flaper87no way to claim, access messages etc21:27
kgriffsok, I give up21:28
kgriffslet's just create a broker provisioning service21:28
* kgriffs runs away21:28
* flaper87 is still loughing21:29
* kgriffs had no idea a person could roll around on the floor like that. wow.21:29
* kgriffs starts recording animated gif21:29
flaper87n a more serious note, we probably need to have specific stream endpoints that will support such stores21:29
flaper87LOL yeah, you have no idea21:29
flaper87until those endpoint are defined, we should focus on stores like elasticsearch, swift etc21:30
kgriffsat some point I think you just have to say, that's a different project.21:30
flaper87lets put more thoughts on this21:30
flaper87but I think we're getting more and more information leading us to the right path21:31
flaper87too bad we still don't know what that path is21:31
flaper87kk, gtg now. I'll probably be back in a bit21:31
tjanczuk_For whatever it is worth, I looked at Kafka in a different context in the past. Based on that I think implementing a Kafka driver for Naav is going to more challanging than AMQP.21:31
kgriffsinteresting idea for big features from openstack-meeting-alt21:31
kgriffs"Build a chain of patches, with the first one having a -2"21:32
kgriffs"Once all the rest of the chain is approved, remove that first -2"21:32
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kgriffs"They merge as a block "21:32
kgriffstjanczuk_: gtk21:32
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tjanczuk_At the same time, Kafka has a number of properties that would make it a rather good fit for the "feed" part of the API.21:33
tjanczuk_As it allows "replays".21:34
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openstackgerritKurt Griffiths proposed a change to openstack/python-marconiclient: doc: Update README.rst with correct installation and contibution info  https://review.openstack.org/9922422:24
kgriffscould use some reviews: ^^^22:25
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