Tuesday, 2014-03-25

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david-lyle#startmeeting Horizon16:00
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 25 16:00:19 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is david-lyle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.16:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Horizon)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'horizon'16:00
lblanchardhi all!16:00
tmazurhello o/16:00
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doug-fishHello everyone16:00
david-lyleWe're in the middle of trying to wrap up RC1 for Icehouse.  #link https://launchpad.net/horizon/+milestone/icehouse-rc116:02
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david-lyleWe have 11 bugs left to merge16:02
david-lyleSo we are looking good16:02
jpichdavid-lyle: Do we need to wait for them all to merge, or will there be a RC1 with the understanding than a RC2 is coming later too?16:03
david-lyleWe're going to target next Tuesday for RC1.16:03
jpichIs RC1 today?16:03
jpichOoh, ok!16:03
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jpichdavid-lyle: Thanks!16:03
david-lylejpich: not all are required for RC116:03
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david-lyleThere are only about 2-3 that I'd hold RC1 for, and the rest would target an RC2.16:04
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david-lyleI believe there is one item that will require an RC2 and probably the translations16:04
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david-lyleso please take the time to review the In Progress patches for RC116:05
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david-lyleSecond general item is Summit Topics #link http://summit.openstack.org/16:05
jpichdavid-lyle: Are there django openstack auth patches we should be keeping an eye on for the RC as well?16:05
david-lylejpich: I'm treating that independently16:06
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david-lyleMy rationale is that we don't have any new features that require a django-openstack-auth upgrade16:06
jpichdavid-lyle: Ok, just wanted to make sure since they don't necessarily have the same visibility when they're not related to anything on the milestone page16:07
jpichmakes sense!16:07
david-lyleso I'm not sure the value of requiring a new version of django-openstack-auth for Icehouse16:07
* jpich thinking of the Keystone v3 issues16:07
amotoki_regarding openstack_auth, i see some translation update. I would like to update translations before its release.16:07
david-lyleso we should dig into this a little more16:08
david-lyleOpenStack dependency change freeze is EOD today16:08
jpichI'm pretty sure we'll need exceptions due to client updates :/16:09
david-lyleif we want to require a newer version of django-openstack-auth, I need to release today and push the update through openstack/requirements16:09
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* jpich still hoping we can get password change with keystone v3 in time for Icehouse16:09
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david-lyleI think dolphm is looking to release that change today, but supporting that would require a requirements change16:10
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jpichThe keystone client patch hasn't merged yet unfortunately16:10
jpichDepFreeze is new so I guess we'll see how it works out...16:11
david-lylefor openstack-auth, we can also say there's a newer version of the package, upgrade and your problems are fixed16:11
david-lylejpich, if the patch makes it we'll figure out a way to utilize it16:11
jpichdavid-lyle: Cool, happy to know this!16:12
amotoki_Is it better to propose a translation import soon? All of them looks typo fix in translation.16:12
amotoki_for DepFreeze, the main motivation looks third party modules maintained outside of openstack projects.16:12
david-lyleMy understanding was not just outside, I think version rolls of the same package may be the exception16:13
jpichamotoki: That's my understanding of the rationale as well, but the emails about it make it sound larger16:13
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amotoki_thanks. it seems better we think it applies to client libraries too anyway.16:15
jpichamotoki_: It can be troublesome for Horizon (e.g. that neutron client update with the new exceptions) but we'll figure it out :)16:15
amotoki_jpich: it is too short to address it :-(16:16
jpichamotoki_: Damn :( Ok, thank you for the update and for looking into it16:17
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david-lyleok, there can be exceptions to the freeze, but for openstack-auth, I don't think we need to use this16:20
david-lylethe other clients may cause us issues though16:20
david-lyleok, so I'll release django-openstack-auth when we have translations, but not bump the required version16:21
absubramare translations associated with the string freeze?.. or are these different translations?16:22
david-lylecircling back a bit http://summit.openstack.org/16:22
jpichabsubram: I think the translation topic will come back in a bit ;)16:23
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absubramhaha ok16:23
david-lylewe have 9 or 11 sessions proposed now, which is great16:23
david-lyleas I expect only 6-7 sessions we'll have to consolidate some of these16:24
david-lylebut if you have more topics please post them16:24
jpichI think people are still thinking up topics16:24
doug-fishdavid-lyle: can you recommend a cutoff date?16:24
absubramyes.. that;'d be good to know16:24
david-lyleI think it's only a few weeks before the summit16:24
doug-fishIf there is a deadline it will become an emergency and I'll _have_ to think about it.16:25
david-lyleI don't have a firm date, as it's not set by me16:25
jpichYes, previously it's been quite close to the summit, with particularly important sessions pre-approved earlier16:25
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doug-fishoh I see16:25
amotoki_For HK summit, proposed deadline was around the release for most projects (nova, neutron...) though horizon did not.16:25
jpichInteresting, thanks amotoki16:26
david-lyleThe summit sessions won't be finalized until after the PTL elections regardless, so the Juno PTL can be the ultimate decider of Juno sessions16:26
absubramlblanchard: last week you and jthopkin were mentioning something about hardware resource capacity management? Is there a session for this that you two have proposed? If so can I tag on to it?16:26
jpichSo that would be around April 24th looks like16:26
david-lylewe've not had an embarassment of riches with topics in the past, so it has not been a large task16:27
absubramit is something we have been internally working on.. and personally I was thinking of it being more of an addition to the tuskar-ui..16:27
lblanchardabsubram: I think the plan is to cover this topic in the "Improve the Overview pages" session that jthompkins proposed…of course you are welcome to come!16:27
absubramawesome. thanks!16:27
david-lyleI did want to ask the the tuskar-ui folks which project they intended to submit to or both triple-o and horizon16:28
david-lyleI haven't seen any yet in either16:28
david-lylejrist, jcoufal, jomara, tzumainn?16:28
lblanchardabsubram: whether we talk through it in the Overview session or not, we should definitely talk about where it might fit best…even if we need to grab some space during another time. I think jcoufal would be interested too.16:28
lblanchardabsubram: and julim16:29
jomaradavid-lyle: you mean where we're submitting sessions to?16:29
jristdavid-lyle: unfortunately my time has been limited on Tuskar-UI as of late, so I'd refer to others16:29
jcoufaldavid-lyle: if we can get 1 session in Horizon, that would be awesome16:29
jcoufalfor API etc it would definitely go to TripleO16:29
absubramoh definitely! sounds good.. thanks lblanchard16:29
tzumainndavid-lyle, yep, what jcoufal said sounds right to me!16:30
david-lyleThat sounds reasonable16:30
jcoufaldavid-lyle: I'll work on it's detail16:30
jcoufalI don't think there is rush for the proposals, is it?16:30
david-lylejcoufal: great thanks, I think it's an area of wide interest16:30
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david-lyleno, we have another month or so16:31
david-lyle#topic Translation and String Freeze16:31
*** openstack changes topic to "Translation and String Freeze (Meeting topic: Horizon)"16:31
david-lyleso doug-fish had some questions and I'm hoping amotoki can provide some clarification16:32
david-lyleor jpich16:32
jpichamotoki_: I think it would be really helpful if the i18n team could update https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StringFreeze to be what the i18n team actually wishes to see16:32
doug-fishoh thanks - yes that is my concern16:32
doug-fishI know we don't exactly follow what's in the wiki16:33
doug-fishbut its not clear to me exactly when we decide we should/shouldn't update an english user facing string16:33
jpichI think 95%+ of Horizon patches would be blocked if we followed what's in the wiki at the moment...16:33
amotoki_  :-)16:33
doug-fishdoesn't that cause lots of problems with translations?16:33
amotoki_doug-fish: most small updates does not matter from my experience.16:34
doug-fish- it doens't matter because the translation team can pick it up?16:34
amotoki_yes. if a change is small, transifex suggests old translations too.16:35
jpichamotok_i: I see a lot of typo patches being submitted to Horizon still. Is there a cut-off date when we should start blocking them till Juno? When should the "request exception from i18n team" process begin? Maybe that's a topic for the next i18n meeting16:35
doug-fishamotoki_ is the transifex process continuous?   that is, if a havana patch went out today with a new user facing string, could it get translated somehow?16:36
absubramgood question :)16:36
amotoki_doug-fish: we have resources both for icehouse and havana. They are maintained separately.16:37
jpichdoug-fish: It could, as in we have havana "branches" in Transifex, but the po file updates aren't automatically updated on either side at this point (is my current understanding)16:37
amotoki_but syncing with transifex for havana is done manually.16:37
doug-fishmanually by us in the community?16:38
doug-fishso our patch sets have updated po files as some point?16:38
amotoki_now we have jenkins job to upload PO file to transifex for master branch.16:39
amotoki_The job is kicked every time a patch is merged.16:39
amotoki_I did it manually previously :)16:40
doug-fishamotoki_:  automation is great, huh?  :-)   will that job continue perpetually?  so icehouse PO files could get sent to transifex during juno, or k?16:40
absubramI have a couple bugs in review that make string changes and that amotoki has seen and wished for other community feedback on as well.. and I don't want to step on any toes, if it needs to be pushed to Juno so be it, but wanted to make sure if it somehow did get added in RC1, it doesn't hurt the translation process16:40
jpichabsubram: Are they small string changes or larger ones?16:42
amotoki_doug-fish: The job is targeted to master branch. Once the msater branch is opened to Juno, transifex resources will be synced with Juno.16:42
david-lyleso amotoki_, once we import the translations for Horizon, then should we, block further string changes?16:42
amotoki_doug-fish: a tricky point is after RC1 is shipped. I and daisy need to work on it.16:42
absubramjpich: I'd say small :)).. but one review does add two new strings16:42
amotoki_david-lyle: i hope so. RC1 cut is a possible deadline.16:43
doug-fishamotoki_:  Thanks.  I think I have a much better understanding of what we are doing now.16:43
amotoki_doug-fish: you're welcome.16:43
amotoki_jpich: absubram: The reason I -1'ed first is because it is a small feature addition with new strings. It is really a gray zone.16:44
absubramamotoki_: no worries.. that one got merged though this past weekend.. so thanks to you and david-lyle16:45
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david-lyleamotoki_, RC1 seems reasonable16:46
absubramamotoki: this one is the Profile name and id addition in the network details.. anyway don't want to derail the discussion..16:46
amotoki_btw, switching django from 1.5 to 1.6 introduces new strings to transaltions. Previously openstack/common strings are excluded.16:46
jpichamotoki_: I think updating that wiki page would help reviewers assess patches with a clearer understanding of what is helpful to the i18n and what might require exception approval. It sounds like "grey zone" may require asking the i18n list what they think?16:47
amotoki_jpich: sounds good.16:47
david-lyleamotoki_, is that just a path issue, seems like openstack/common should already be translated16:48
jpichamotoki_: Ok, thank you. I'll send an email to the i18n list with a summary of what was discussed here to get feedback16:48
david-lyleamotoki_, I see the lp bug now, lookign16:49
amotoki_david-lyle: basically it should be translated, but we have a number of unused openstack-common.16:49
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amotoki_I noticed it because ~20 strings suddenly appeared.16:50
david-lyleso switched openstack/common/* to openstack fixes the issue?16:50
amotoki_david-lyle: yes, but it may be better to remove ignore option.16:51
david-lyleand retranslate the strings? or is oslo not including translations?16:51
amotoki_previously oslo is not translated in many languages (AFAIK no languages)16:52
david-lyleah, then I agree, ignore may not be desirable16:52
jpichIt seems a bit late to suddenly add many new strings to the translators workload though...16:53
amotoki_jpich: good point. openstack/common strings takes a time to translate without reading the code.16:53
amotoki_hmm..... how about keeping --ignore option for Icehouse. most strings are invisible to users.16:54
david-lylelet's go back to the original behavior for icehouse with amotoki_'s patch and fix properly in Juno16:54
jpichSounds good to me, and we can revisit in Juno16:54
david-lylewe're no worse off than we were before16:55
david-lyleany other translation questions issues?16:55
jpichamotoki: About the .mo file issues on the agenda, there is a bug open about it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/119698216:55
amotoki_let's discuss on MO files in the bug report.16:55
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jpichThe concern about the first patch was that we wanted a way to regenerate them automatically, maybe you know how the other projects handle it?16:56
jpich3 minutes of open discussion then? ;)16:56
david-lyle#topic Open Season16:56
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Season (Meeting topic: Horizon)"16:56
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absubram"open season" eh? :)16:57
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david-lyleI am from the middle of the US, all phrases relate to farming, hunting or fishing, can't help it16:58
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jpichActually I had a small item, we renamed the "Images & Snapshots" panel "Images"16:58
jpichbut instances snapshots do live in there too16:58
jpichI think it'd be clearer to change back the verbose name (but no need to change the class names like the patch that changed this did)16:59
amotoki_I think an instance snapshot is a kind of images.16:59
jpichI can imagine some confusion as to where things go after clicking "Create snapshot" on the Instances panel17:00
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jpichfor end-users I mean. I'm not sure if the "snapshot is an image" is clear17:00
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jpichanyhow I'll open a bug and we'll see in reviews I guess17:00
amotoki_time is over17:00
david-lyleoops indeed.17:01
pballand#startmeeting CongressTeamMeeting17:01
openstackpballand: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.  Use #endmeeting first.17:01
david-lyleThanks everyone! Have a great week.17:01
lsmola_thanks, have a good week everyone17:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:01
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 25 17:01:29 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:01
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2014/horizon.2014-03-25-16.00.html17:01
jomaraadios, everyone17:01
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2014/horizon.2014-03-25-16.00.txt17:01
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openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/horizon/2014/horizon.2014-03-25-16.00.log.html17:01
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david-lylestart again17:01
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absubramthanks all!17:01
akrivokathanks everyone, bye17:01
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tmazurThanks all!17:01
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pballandthinrichs: you around?17:02
thinrichsYep--I'm here.17:02
thinrichsHi all!17:02
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pballandwould you mind running the meeting? I've been out of sorts this week17:02
rajdeephi all17:02
thinrichspballand: sure.17:02
thinrichsProbably makes sense to go through the action items from last week.17:03
david-lylepballand, thinrichs, I had to end the last meeting, try restarting it.17:03
thinrichsdavid-lyle: will do.  Didn't notice it didn't take17:03
david-lylesorry for the run over17:03
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thinrichs#startmeeting CongressTeamMeeting17:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 25 17:03:53 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is thinrichs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.17:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:03
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: CongressTeamMeeting)"17:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'congressteammeeting'17:03
thinrichsdavid-lyle: no worries17:04
thinrichsrajdeep: do you want to give us a status update on neutron/etc. drivers?17:04
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rajdeepi just sent a couple a change requests17:05
rajdeepfinishing the integration of Neutron with congress17:05
thinrichsrajdeep: yeah--it's looking good.  Didn't get a chance to look at your changes yet this morning.17:05
rajdeepyou can see the CR here https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82293/317:06
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rajdeepalso added another variable to store timestamp of syncup17:06
thinrichsSounds good.17:07
rajdeepthis finished networks and ports conversion from json to tuple17:07
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thinrichsI'd ask about the next component you'll be working on, but there's another action item that will impact that.17:07
rajdeepi was thinking of doing nova driver17:08
thinrichsrajdeep: any lessons learned that you want to share about converting JSON to tables/tuples?17:08
rajdeepyes - it gets complicated so spent some time creating detailed mappings17:08
rajdeeprefer to the design doc17:09
rajdeepalso one json maps to n tuples17:09
thinrichsIt would be nice to have some sort of writeup so that new people have an easier time understanding what needs to be done when writing a new driver.17:09
rajdeepthats a good idea17:10
thinrichsrajdeep: want to tackle that?  You're the expert17:10
rajdeepwill do that17:10
rajdeep- yes17:10
rajdeepwhat should be the format - rst?17:10
rajdeepand where should i place it17:10
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thinrichsThere's a section in the current RST docs on "Data Integration".  Let's put it there.17:11
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thinrichs#action rajdeep will work on the Data Integration portion of the docs, focusing on adding a new driver17:11
thinrichsLet's move on then.17:12
thinrichskudva: did you get enough feedback from us to work on the policy engine/Datalog builtins?17:12
kudvaWould like to have a discussion on it.17:12
kudvaI have some ideas to implement, but want to make sure that the team agrees17:13
thinrichsWant to briefly layout the problem you're working on and what you're planning?17:13
kudvaOkay, so the idea is the we have a congress_builtin that has the following components17:14
kudva1. It of course has the python builtins17:14
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kudva2. It provides (manipulation of datalog primitives), particularly string manipulation (as you mentioned) to extract elements17:15
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kudva3. It provides mappign from datalog function to data source tables (is this part of the builtin?)17:15
kudvaOnce we agree, I can go ahead and implement17:15
thinrichsBy (1) you mean basic functions like addition, subtraction, string manipulation, right?17:16
thinrichsOr are you also thinking of set(), list(), dict(), and so on?17:16
kudvaBy 1, I mean everything that is part of python builtin17:16
kudva2. would be specific to datalog and congress17:16
kudva1 = http://docs.python.org/2.7/library/functions.html17:17
thinrichsThanks for the link.17:17
kudva2. = datalog specific addition, subtraction, string etc.17:18
kudvaPython already provides many of the functions for add, sub etc, so what I am adding is datalog primitive support correct?17:19
thinrichsMy main concern about including all of those Python builtins is that they can have side effects.17:19
kudvaCan you give an example?17:19
thinrichsFrom the policy language's point of view, there shouldn't be side effects b/c then Datalog will need to be reasoning about those side effects to get the right answer.17:19
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thinrichsYou create a dict() and then later set a value--you *modify* that dict, you don't create a new one.17:20
thinrichsDatalog sort of assumes that every time you change a dict you would create a new one.  Sort of like Haskell.17:21
kudvaI see17:21
thinrichsAlso, eval() is super worrisome because it could do anything.17:21
thinrichsTypically a policy language will allow any builtin without side effects.  Though there are downsides to having even those builtins.17:22
thinrichsThe more builtins we have, the harder it is to do *analysis* of the policy.17:22
thinrichsSay we wanted to check if there were any cloud service tables (input tables to the policy) that would make some table empty.  Without any builtins, there are reasonably straightforward algorithms to use.17:23
kudvaGot it. Unless all the builtins can be reduced to some fixed set of basic primitives...17:23
thinrichsBut with builtins, we'd need to modify those algorithms so they know (for example) how to add 2 numbers, etc.17:23
thinrichskudva: Right.17:23
thinrichsThat was why I would start with a small set of builtins (arithmetic, string manipulation) and build up from there.17:24
thinrichsOnce we get the mechanism for adding builtins nailed down, it should be easy to add new ones.17:24
kudvaOkay, I can start that. So to be clear. The builtins will be used in the policy language. They will be reduced to a fixed set up primitives for analysis.17:24
kudvaThat is not to complicate the analysis17:25
kudvaSo what we need is a fixed set of primitives that keeps the analysis simple. All builtins or macros sitting on top should be reducible to those primitives17:26
kudvaLet me start a draft to make it more concrete17:26
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kudvaI will take a few arithmetic examples and send out some examples for discussoin17:26
thinrichsGreat!  Here's the question I was about to ask you...17:26
thinrichskudva: sounds good.  Want to take a stab at a (brief) proposal to nail down (i) syntax within the policy language (see my email), (ii) how one would add additional builtins, and (iii) a word or two about what code would need modifications?17:26
kudvaokay, will do that17:26
thinrichs#action kudva will put a proposal together for adding builtins to the Datalog policy language.17:27
thinrichsMoving on...17:27
thinrichspballand: you had 2 action items.17:28
thinrichs(1) Hooking up the API to the policy engine and (2) looking into the data integration glue (for helping the policy engine communicate with the component drivers)17:28
thinrichsAny progress?17:28
pballandsome, on (1), I've begun refactoring the existing API code to make it more tightly coupled with policy17:29
pballandI don't have code to post yet, but hope to by the end of the week.17:29
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thinrichsGreat!  It'll help others, especially, to see the end-to-end flow of information from API to policy engine.17:29
pballandon (2), I haven't gotten very far, but I believe there is some other work underway17:30
pballandit seems like an AMQP framework would work week for the data integration, and we are looking to leverage some existing code17:31
pballandI'll post to the ML when we have more on this17:32
pballandthat's all I have to report today :(17:33
thinrichsSounds good.  Thanks for the update17:34
pballandactually, just saw in email that it is okay to announce that Plexxi is going to contribute some code for the data integration17:34
pballandwe are super excited to have them on board17:34
rajdeepthis is great news!17:35
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thinrichsThe cool thing about the Plexxi code is that they have a Python impl of AMQP for doing data integration.17:35
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pballandwe will be working to merge in that code, and will report more on the ML and next meeting17:36
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thinrichsSo this will enable the policy engine to ask for data from our cloud service drivers and eventually tell those cloud service drivers to execute actions.17:37
rajdeepi am assuming this will sit between the policy engine and the datasource drivers17:37
thinrichsThat's the idea, at least conceptually.  It'll take some work to figure out how the integration will actually work.17:38
thinrichsAny other questions about Plexxi before we move on?17:38
pballandrajdeep: yes - we will probably support other mechanisms for POC work, but I expect this would be the preferred integration pattern17:38
thinrichsThe last item on the agenda before opening it up is an update on my action items.17:39
rajdeepthis will make it scalable so that drivers could run on a separate node as compared the engine17:39
thinrichsI was supposed to investigate the idea that we would replace the Classificatin+Action policies with a Classification, Access Control, and Condition action policy.17:40
thinrichsI sent a note to the ML, and no one seemed to have a strong opinion one way or the other.17:40
thinrichsAfter waiting a while, I went ahead and edited the design doc to reflect the new ideas.17:40
thinrichsIt's much simpler to understand and I think it should help us focus better on making this first alpha release a good one.17:40
thinrichsI also pitched Congress to 3 different groups, and our newer simplified version went over well.  People seemed to understand it pretty much immediately.17:41
thinrichsDoes anyone have questions/comments about this?17:41
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rajdeepit is easier to understand it this way17:42
thinrichsThen I'll take an action item to make the changes in the code.  Once that's done I'll update the docs as well.17:43
thinrichs#action thinrichs will remove the Action description policy and add the Access Control policy from the prototype.17:43
thinrichsThe last thing we have is Open Discussion.17:44
rajdeephad a question on how will congress work with neutron policy related work17:45
thinrichsIt's not clear how they will interoperate right now.17:45
thinrichsConceptually, we'd like it to be the case that they can exchange policy fragments.17:46
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thinrichsIf, for example, Congress could push policy down to Neutron, then that policy could be used to prevent violations before they happen more efficiently than having Neutron consult with Congress directly.17:47
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rajdeepthey also have classifier, rules and actions17:47
thinrichsSyntactically they're similar languages (as most policy languages are).17:47
thinrichsBut we'd need to make sure that we are enforcing the same policy.17:48
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thinrichsOne challenge is that our policies may require information that Neutron doesn't itself have.17:48
thinrichs(That's why Data Integration is so important).17:48
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thinrichsFor example, our policy might refer to Nova info, Neutron info, and AD info.  We can't push that policy down to Neutron unless it has access to that same info.17:49
rajdeepthat was my thought too17:49
thinrichsSimilarly, Neutron policies can refer to L4-L7 data in a network packet--info we may or may not have.17:49
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rajdeepneutron needs more info to have a comprehensive policy17:49
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thinrichsSo just from the perspective of information, it's non-trivial to have them exchange policies.17:50
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thinrichsAnything else?17:51
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thinrichsGreat discussion, all.  Let's follow up on the ML, as usual.17:52
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*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"17:53
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 25 17:53:57 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)17:53
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2014/congressteammeeting.2014-03-25-17.03.html17:54
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2014/congressteammeeting.2014-03-25-17.03.txt17:54
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/congressteammeeting/2014/congressteammeeting.2014-03-25-17.03.log.html17:54
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briancurtin#startmeeting python-openstacksdk19:01
openstackMeeting started Tue Mar 25 19:01:16 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is briancurtin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.19:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.19:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: python-openstacksdk)"19:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'python_openstacksdk'19:01
briancurtinFor everyone who is here for the Python meeting, can you state your name and affiliation?19:01
edleafeEd Leafe, Rackspace19:01
dtroyerDean Troyer, Nebula19:01
briancurtinBrian Curtin, Rackspace19:02
wchrisjChris Johnson, HP19:02
briancurtinI'm guessing/hoping others will probably roll in19:04
briancurtin#topic Status of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/79435/ (Infrastructure for adding auth to a requests sesssion)19:04
*** openstack changes topic to "Status of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/79435/ (Infrastructure for adding auth to a requests sesssion) (Meeting topic: python-openstacksdk)"19:04
briancurtinWhen we left off, Jamie and I think a few others said that seemed fine to go in, but there were some infra hiccups preventing it. Since then, a -1 from Terry Howe popped up19:05
briancurtinunfortunately I don't see Terry or Alex here19:05
mferMatt Farina, HP19:06
wchrisjTerry is offline ATM19:06
briancurtinanyone with a comment on that review or should we move forward/perhaps come back to it19:06
wchrisjbriancurtin: I'll ping Terry and ask him to comment ASAP19:07
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briancurtin#topic https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82646/ (Add API discovery support)19:08
*** openstack changes topic to "https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82646/ (Add API discovery support) (Meeting topic: python-openstacksdk)"19:08
dtroyerbriancurtin: would probably be better to look at these in order19:08
briancurtinyeah i just realized i pasted the wrong thing, 1 sec19:08
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briancurtin#topic: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/81882/ (Add requests.Session wrapper class)19:09
*** openstack changes topic to ": https://review.openstack.org/#/c/81882/ (Add requests.Session wrapper class) (Meeting topic: python-openstacksdk)"19:09
briancurtinother than my little minor comments, i think it's probably fine. could use some other eyes now that it's broken up and has a few more revs19:10
dtroyerAnyone have any idea if I've addressed alex's comments sufficiently?19:10
briancurtini *think* so19:11
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briancurtini pinged him to show up here fwiw19:11
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dtroyerwhat sort of docs are expected as we go here?  not finished, of course, but should something go in ad modues are added??19:13
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briancurtindtroyer: good question, which i havent thought of until now, but I wonder if we should put in signatures at the very least, so we know *what* should be documented...versus nothing, then coming back and not covering things19:14
bknudsonI'd prefer it if the docs were first19:15
dtroyerI was thinking that the equivalent of what I had in the blueprint could go in too19:15
briancurtinbknudson: not having done doc-driven dev, or anything close to it - to what degree are you documenting things first? like writing the signature and prose documentation all up front, or just sketching a general idea up?19:16
bknudsona general idea would be adequate19:16
bknudsonshow a use case19:16
bknudsonbtw - what docs are we talking about? a tutorial or something?19:17
bknudsonI like it for as much docs as possible be in the docstrings.19:17
dtroyeranything really, but I was thinking of what should go into the repo, doc/source/??19:17
briancurtinunless we have something pulling the docs out of the docstrings and into separate (or additional) documentation, i don't really like depending on docstrings19:18
bknudsonI'd prefer it if we could get as much as possible into docstrings vs separate docs. tutorials would go in separate docs, but should be able to figure out how to use the API from the docstrings19:19
bknudsonI've seen docstrings done poorly and I've seen them done well.19:19
briancurtinyou should be able to figure out the API from docstrings, but you shouldn't have to go there to find it. telling people to look at the source to find out how to use it is not a good experience19:20
bknudsonthe docs are generated from the docstrings, you don't have to look at the source19:20
briancurtinif we have that in place, that seems fine. i wasnt aware of that being the current plan19:21
briancurtin(not familiar with how docs are done around here)19:21
bknudsonkeystone has the docstrings.19:22
bknudson(and this is an example of docstrings docs not done right)19:22
briancurtinas long as that infra is in place to have it there, if we do it right, then that looks fine for API docs. we can deal with tutorials or user guides and whatnot as things move on19:23
bknudsondocstrings make it easier for developers because then it's right there with the code... it still takes work to make it useful19:24
briancurtinyep. i'll start taking a closer look at docstrings in reviews, but as long as we have good ones, i think that satisfies any doc-as-part-of-change requirement we may have for now19:25
briancurtin#topic https://review.openstack.org/#/c/81988/ (Add redirection handling to openstack.session.Session)19:27
*** openstack changes topic to "https://review.openstack.org/#/c/81988/ (Add redirection handling to openstack.session.Session) (Meeting topic: python-openstacksdk)"19:27
briancurtinthis also looked generally fine, although not being familiar with where it came from, i feel like it's probably better with some eyes from keystone people (which is where it came from, IIRC)19:28
briancurtindtroyer: are there tests to go with this one?19:30
dtroyerThis is basically out of jamielennox's Session object.  I haven't written/stolen specific tests yet19:30
bknudsonI assume this project is going to have a requirement for unit tests.19:30
briancurtinyep. functionality wise it appears fine, but...tests19:31
wchrisjquestion on this approach...19:32
wchrisjWhy is the redirect handling being done inside of the session. That feels like it should be in the HTTP transport layer19:33
wchrisjif I understand what is being discussed (may not)19:33
wchrisjit feels out of place inside of session19:34
dtroyeras I see it, the alternative is modifying requests itself.  This is as close as we get otherwise.19:34
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jamielennoxsorry, here19:35
jamielennoxwchrisj: for the time being at least this IS the HTTP transport layer19:35
wchrisjahh, OK, I just saw the "import requests"19:35
wchrisjso yeah, now I see19:36
jamielennoxi submitted a bug to requests saying that for programming against APIs we would like to ignore the web redirects19:36
jamielennoxand was told that certains redirects allow (or at best don't specify) that the http method must be the same19:36
jamielennoxand that essentially apis shouldn't be using those redirects19:36
wchrisjso this redirect handling stuff is a temp hack to overcome that shortcoming?19:37
jamielennoxhowever we had legacy tests in keystone that required those status to redirect correctly19:37
jamielennoxkeystoneclient i mean19:37
jamielennoxwchrisj: essentially19:37
dtroyerhow temporary is it though?19:37
wchrisjjamielennox: ok19:37
jamielennoxdtroyer: i was told it's not going to happen19:37
dtroyerthat's what I thought19:38
briancurtinjamielennox: do you have the bug report handy?19:38
dtroyerso it s a permanent reminder of a temporary feeling…  ;)19:38
jamielennoxbriancurtin: i'll have a look19:38
wchrisjWhat I'm getting at is we might want to isolate that in it's own layer just for this sort of reason19:38
wchrisjwould that make sense jamielennox: ??19:38
dtroyerwchrisj: I see this is exactly that layer19:38
wchrisjor is it overkill?19:39
jamielennoxi still think the reply to the bug is wrong for the API case19:40
wchrisjdtroyer: This isn't a hill to die for, but Session is about a lot more than just the HTTP transport, correct?19:40
bknudsonpeople use web for something other than getting web pages?19:41
jamielennoxbknudson: :)19:41
dtroyerwchrisj: sort of.  It is also a handly place for some common OpenStack-specific things that need to happen at this layer19:41
jamielennoxbknudson: technically they may be right - but if i was an admin i would expect i could install a 301 redirect and things would work19:42
jamielennoxwchrisj: if they were to be seperate it would be a subclass anyway so there isn't an advantage in security just seperating code19:42
jamielennoxalso it would be really easy to make the subclass - because python19:43
jamielennoxthat's at least the plan i've been working on for keystoneclient for when someone get's really annoyed by the mixing19:43
jamielennoxon this topic i do like the comment at: https://github.com/kennethreitz/requests/blob/master/requests/sessions.py#L13219:45
jamielennox# Do what the browsers do, despite standards.19:45
jamielennoxyet they weren't willing to consider adding a standards mode19:45
briancurtin14 min left and another review to cover, will jump forward19:46
briancurtin#topic https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82646/ (Add API discovery support)19:47
*** openstack changes topic to "https://review.openstack.org/#/c/82646/ (Add API discovery support) (Meeting topic: python-openstacksdk)"19:47
dtroyerthis one is not finished but I wanted to get some early feedback on it19:47
dtroyerit is totally different from what Jamie did in keystoneclient19:47
dtroyerI wanted a discovery mechanism that could stand alone and not be too closely tied to any one API19:48
dtroyerwhich is why the Identity hack is in a subclass19:48
bknudsonjamielennox has some changes to support other version responses19:48
bknudsonto the keystoneclient version19:48
jamielennoxdtroyer: right i've been wanting to go through that and see where the differences in support are19:48
dtroyerI don't have all of the stable/experimental status bits in yet19:49
briancurtindtroyer: i have zero knowledge of how keystoneclient does it. should i have that?19:49
jamielennoxbriancurtin: not really19:49
bknudsonbriancurtin: no, please look at this fresh!19:49
jamielennoxbriancurtin: the current keystoneclient only does it for keystone19:49
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jamielennox(though there are changes in place to start fixing that)19:49
jamielennoxdtroyer: did the ApiVersion class come from the keysteonclient equivalent?19:51
jamielennoxor do you see you'll have need for that?19:52
dtroyerjamielennox: no, that's from scratch from last fall sometime19:52
dtroyerit was just more convenient to put the version normalization in there19:53
dtroyerI'm not sure there is a need for it outside discovery19:53
jamielennoxdtroyer: ok, that approach is what we currently have in keystoneclient but i scrapped it in a pending review19:53
bknudsonfor keystoneclient we do version negotiation because we've got a v2 and v3 client libs19:53
bknudsonbut there's only one openstackclient19:53
bknudsonso seems like we don't need to do version negotiation?19:54
dtroyerbknudson: we do, OSC knows how to talk to all versions supported by the libs, but it doesn't knwo which one to use.  This stuff cam eout of what I've been working on for OSC19:54
dtroyerback before any of the libs even thought about it19:55
briancurtindtroyer: using the tests as a guide, this seems straightforward enough to me coming at it with no specific knowledge19:55
jamielennoxbknudson: yea - the same thing will apply to all the other clients when we have unversioned urls in the service catalog19:55
bknudsonis openstack lib going to have multiple client lib versions?19:56
bknudsoni.e., an identity.v2 lib and an identity.v3 lib? or a compute.v2 and compute.v3?19:57
jamielennoxbknudson: it will need to span multiple api versions19:57
jamielennoxthe internals of how htat will work are still unknown19:57
briancurtinyeah, not sure exactly how it'll do it, but it'll be there19:57
bknudsoncan identity lib support both identity v2 and identity v3?19:57
dtroyerbknudson: I've always thought if it like that, similar to the project libs today19:57
dtroyerthere should be a higher-level API that strives to be version-agnostic19:58
jamielennoxbknudson: identity is tricky because of the changes from v2->v3, but in general ys19:58
dtroyerI don't want to mix that conversation into the low-level API though19:58
jamielennoxdtroyer: so there are a lot of public apis in discovery - some returning ApiVersion objects19:59
briancurtin1 min left, anything to sneak in before breaking this up?19:59
jamielennoxnot necessarily a problem just that it might be worth keeping some of that private19:59
dtroyerjamielennox: yeah, I haven't really thought about that bit yet19:59
dtroyersome of those may be useful, and I'm not sure of the consensus about sublasses overriding private methods20:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"20:00
openstackMeeting ended Tue Mar 25 20:00:33 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)20:00
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/python_openstacksdk/2014/python_openstacksdk.2014-03-25-19.01.html20:00
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/python_openstacksdk/2014/python_openstacksdk.2014-03-25-19.01.txt20:00
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/python_openstacksdk/2014/python_openstacksdk.2014-03-25-19.01.log.html20:00
briancurtin(can't remember if anyone follows in this meeting slot, but in case they do...ended)20:01
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