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| ajo | hi :) | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| sc68cal | hello :) | 14:00 |
| ajo | :) | 14:00 |
| ajo | #startmeeting neutron_qos | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 27 14:01:17 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ajo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| vikram | hi | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_qos)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_qos' | 14:01 |
| ajo | #topic summit session | 14:01 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "summit session (Meeting topic: neutron_qos)" | 14:01 | |
| ajo | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/YVR-neutron-qos | 14:01 |
| ajo | just a link for anybody who where not able to attend | 14:02 |
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| ajo | it was very nice to meet you all (most of you) :) | 14:02 |
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| sc68cal | likewise :) | 14:02 |
| vikram | samehere :) | 14:02 |
| ajo | thanks :) | 14:03 |
| ajo | it seemed like we were all mostly ok with the API, tweaks here and there to be done, but the foundation seemed right | 14:03 |
| ajo | it was good that I managed to understand all the DSCP use cases (like dscp pass through or capping... while I was only thinking of marking) | 14:03 |
| ajo | vhoward and the comcast guys agreed to work in parallel to add an extension spec with DSCP, and OVS support, which should be relatively easy | 14:04 |
| ajo | so, when we get the first part done, we can look into merging DSCP as fast as possible | 14:04 |
| sc68cal | agree - we may need to tease out more of the policy.json decisions based on some of the feedback at the summmit, but I think we're on the right track | 14:04 |
| ajo | sc68cal, can you elaborate? :) | 14:05 |
| ajo | I guess you mean, we should clarify all the use cases and how those map to policy.json? | 14:05 |
| sc68cal | ajo: It was just the subject of the API being Admin only that there were some corner cases that people highlighted | 14:05 |
| ajo | QoS is all about corner cases ':D | 14:06 |
| sc68cal | it may come up again in review - I think we should proceed with the current plan of admin only but be prepared for people to poke holes in the thinking when it goes under review | 14:06 |
| vikram | seam I think we can start with Admin at the first go | 14:06 |
| ajo | makes sense, | 14:06 |
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| ajo | stick to the plan, and address the corner cases with RBAC | 14:06 |
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| ajo | and policy.json instructions, for now | 14:06 |
| irenab | and RBAC implementation may land by then | 14:06 |
| ajo | probably RBAC could be our next step to look at | 14:07 |
| vikram | +1 | 14:07 |
| ajo | together with DSCP support merging, of course | 14:07 |
| sc68cal | I'll check the spec and see if we have anything about RBAC, just so I don't forget | 14:07 |
| ajo | sc68cal, there is, but just a very brief reference, may be we'd like to expand that | 14:07 |
| sc68cal | ajo: ok, that sounds good. I'll check it and if it needs expansion I'll push a patch | 14:08 |
| sc68cal | anyway, sorry to hijack, please continue :) | 14:08 |
| ajo | I guess, we soon need a) the spec approved so we can start working (I'd suggest myself iterating faster over the spec, and I'd be thankful for fast reviews too, you're doing your part so far... ;) | 14:09 |
| vikram | Do we got to support RABC for liberty? | 14:09 |
| ajo | sc68cal, no no, perfact, sounds good | 14:09 |
| sc68cal | vikram: probably not | 14:09 |
| vikram | ok | 14:09 |
| ajo | vikram RBAC is under development, we may have some sort of RBAC during liberty | 14:09 |
| ajo | but not yet ready | 14:09 |
| ajo | kevinbenton ^ ;) | 14:10 |
| irenab | lets spec in details only what is going to be immediatly supported | 14:10 |
| vikram | yes that I was thinking that RBAC will itself land in liberty | 14:10 |
| sc68cal | my plan was mention RBAC in the context of "first iteration will be admin only, then RBAC will be used to give finer grained control" | 14:10 |
| ajo | irenab: there's a future work section for all the ideas we want to put in backlog, so we can prioritize them | 14:10 |
| irenab | ajo: I guess I am now concerned with first iteration :-) | 14:11 |
| ajo | irenab, of course ;) | 14:11 |
| ajo | we may settle down on going in or out of tree, I'm more in favor of in, but out could be also be ok, that would even allow us to initially iterate faster, | 14:12 |
| ajo | btw, irenab , I checked that we have support for db migrations on out-tree advanced services | 14:12 |
| sc68cal | ^ seems like a good reason to be out of tree | 14:13 |
| vhoward | sorry for being late…catching up | 14:13 |
| irenab | being in tree or being in neutro like advanced services? | 14:13 |
| sc68cal | let's just get the API extension and resources in tree then follow what the *aaS repos are doing | 14:13 |
| ajo | using a service plugin approach is clear to me, let's take that path | 14:14 |
| vikram | sc68cal: +1 | 14:14 |
| moshele | +1 | 14:14 |
| vhoward | +1 | 14:14 |
| cbits | +1 | 14:14 |
| ajo | sc68cal, you don't need the api extension or resources in tree | 14:14 |
| ajo | afaik | 14:14 |
| sc68cal | ajo: woo! even better | 14:14 |
| ajo | sc68cal, if we do it out, all in one place | 14:14 |
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| ajo | but still, I'm unsure that's the best way to go, | 14:14 |
| ajo | again, even if we build on service plugin | 14:15 |
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| sadasu | Hello! Sorry I am late today. | 14:15 |
| ajo | I don't see it as an "advanced service" | 14:15 |
| irenab | sc68cal: I think we should keep it together with service plugin, but better be under the ‘big tect’, meaning in openstack and not stakeforge | 14:15 |
| ajo | it's just modifying ports :) | 14:15 |
| ajo | irenab, may be that makes sense | 14:15 |
| ajo | as other *aaS go under the neutron tent | 14:15 |
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| sc68cal | as a service plugin, it'd be within the neutron main repo right? or its own | 14:16 |
| ajo | sc68cal, it can be done one way or another :) | 14:16 |
| sc68cal | sort of fuzzy on service plugins, it's been a while | 14:16 |
| ajo | sc68cal, check LBaaS repo | 14:16 |
| ajo | very clarifying | 14:16 |
| ajo | 1 sec | 14:16 |
| sc68cal | ajo: ah, my cake and eat it too! ok, then that sounds good to me, I think as long as we have a separate repo to quick iterate that's great | 14:16 |
| irenab | agree | 14:17 |
| vhoward | thanks for the protip ajo i'm going to check that out as well | 14:17 |
| ajo | https://github.com/openstack/neutron-lbaas/tree/master/neutron_lbaas | 14:17 |
| vhoward | thx | 14:17 |
| ajo | sc68cal, irenab , vhoward , I'd check with cores btw that the approach seams reasonable, because if they want it back later in time, it could be a mess | 14:17 |
| ajo | I'm more in favor of in, but out should work too, | 14:18 |
| ajo | we may need to dedicate extra resources to set CI, etc... | 14:18 |
| ajo | chose a gating strategy... | 14:18 |
| ajo | make sure those is correctly exposed to all plugin writers.. | 14:18 |
| ajo | db migrations: https://github.com/openstack/neutron-lbaas/tree/master/neutron_lbaas/db | 14:18 |
| vhoward | i'd prefer in also, but whatever gets it upstream when it comes down to it | 14:19 |
| ajo | extensions: https://github.com/openstack/neutron-lbaas/tree/master/neutron_lbaas/extensions | 14:19 |
| ajo | I talked to dougwig | 14:19 |
| ajo | and the main point is depending on the low level apis by neutron... | 14:19 |
| ajo | when something changes in the api, you get broken | 14:19 |
| ajo | he suggests having a neutron_lib | 14:19 |
| ajo | the "broken rate" is around 1/week | 14:19 |
| vhoward | the reference implementation of dscp we are thinking will be an extention to mechanism driver for ovs to get it upstreamed quickly | 14:20 |
| ajo | who's going to devote resources to keep the out-of-tree implementation healthy? :) | 14:20 |
| ajo | this is my main reason to prefer "in" if that makes sense for neutron, of course ^ | 14:20 |
| irenab | regardless if it in or out, I think it should be service plugin and not mixin into L2 plugin | 14:21 |
| ajo | if we are a few, it could be a rotating position, or a requirement to stay "qos-core" ;D | 14:21 |
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| ajo | irenab total agreemen on that | 14:21 |
| vikram | ajo: +1 | 14:22 |
| ajo | irenab, after some struggling and trying to understand neutron it's the conclusion I got. | 14:22 |
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| ajo | ok | 14:23 |
| ajo | #topic open agenda | 14:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open agenda (Meeting topic: neutron_qos)" | 14:23 | |
| vikram | IMHO anyways we need to maintain the CI for atleast sometime till it stablizes | 14:23 |
| ajo | I guess we are in open agenda for a while already :D | 14:23 |
| sadasu | +1 for service plugin | 14:23 |
| ajo | vikram, not sometime, always :) | 14:23 |
| sadasu | I am not sure how QoS in group based policy fits into all of this | 14:23 |
| vikram | ajo: :) | 14:23 |
| ajo | vikram, we may need to maintain co-gating implementation if we keep cogating, or any CI that breaks | 14:23 |
| ajo | sadasu, I talked to the people doing GBP, and they're willing to use our API when ready | 14:24 |
| ajo | sadasu, but that's just higher level abstraction | 14:24 |
| ajo | I talked to ivar lazarro specifically | 14:24 |
| vikram | ajo: Thanks for explaining | 14:24 |
| ajo | #link https://www.openstack.org/summit/vancouver-2015/summit-videos/presentation/supporting-network-bandwidth-guarantees-with-openstack-an-implementation-perspective | 14:24 |
| ajo | some interesting stuff, if you didn't have the chance to see it | 14:24 |
| ajo | the people from HP solved the ingress limiting case with on-compute agents that monitor traffic and send messages to each other throttling egress as necessary | 14:25 |
| vikram | It's good but I feel we don't have to do anything special for GBP. Right? | 14:25 |
| sadasu | ajo: thanks! will take a look and see if I still have some remnant questions on GBP and this API tying together | 14:25 |
| vhoward | not that excited about maintaining our own gating forever but i can help with setting it up to get this upstreamed if we go that route | 14:26 |
| ajo | sadasu, thanks, that sounds good, I must admit I'm a GBP ignorant | 14:26 |
| vikram | ajo: It's good but I feel we don't have to do anything special for GBP. Right? | 14:26 |
| ajo | vhoward, yes, that's my main concern, thanks , any help will be valuable | 14:26 |
| ajo | vikram, this is what I understand, right | 14:27 |
| ajo | ok | 14:27 |
| ajo | anything you'd like to talk about or shall we endmeeting for today? :) | 14:28 |
| vikram | ok | 14:28 |
| vikram | When we will start the implementation | 14:28 |
| sc68cal | i'm good | 14:28 |
| vikram | i mean what is the plan? | 14:28 |
| sadasu | are there any implications for ML2 ? | 14:28 |
| ajo | vikram, when spec is approved we could start, or... if it's going to be out of tree, we could already start | 14:28 |
| ajo | sadasu, ML2{OVS/LB/SRIOV} is our target plugin | 14:29 |
| vikram | ajo: We got to decide soon as the liberty cycle is small :) | 14:29 |
| ajo | vikram: I totally agree | 14:29 |
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| ajo | I will push an updated spec with the last comments, and we may call for it on the next neutron meeting | 14:29 |
| ajo | is it monday or tuesday next week? | 14:29 |
| ajo | we may ask mestery for a slot ^ | 14:30 |
| irenab | I guess we should decide on design, maybe we can spend next meeting to discuss it? | 14:30 |
| sadasu | ajo: agreed, they are the reference ML2 plugins we are targeting, but any implication for the ML2 plugin code itself? | 14:30 |
| mestery | ajo: Tuesday next week, so better aligned to European times :) | 14:30 |
| ajo | thanks mestery :) | 14:30 |
| ajo | could you save us a tiny slot ? | 14:30 |
| vikram | ohhh... this will be tough for me :) | 14:30 |
| ajo | sadasu, not sure, may be irenab has more insight on this as she spent some time on that level of the design | 14:31 |
| ajo | irenab, I agree | 14:31 |
| vikram | any conclusion for horizon part? | 14:32 |
| sc68cal | ajo: I think irenab and vhoward are right, using a ml2 extension driver will make changes to ML2 non-invasive (http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/neutron-specs/specs/juno/neutron-ml2-mechanismdriver-extensions.html) | 14:32 |
| ajo | irenab, may be we should prepare another spec with the messaging layer for the agents using messaging | 14:32 |
| vikram | AFAIK, we need a BP for horizon changes | 14:32 |
| ajo | sc68cal, that part is still blurry to me, more code to read :) | 14:32 |
| ajo | vikram, you're right, we had a volunteer, right? :) | 14:33 |
| sc68cal | ajo: me too, but that spec linked helps clarify | 14:33 |
| irenab | ajo: We should have support for agentless plugins as well | 14:33 |
| vhoward | well i'm figuring it out as well, i think irenab has a much better understanding i'm just hoping to learn some from her | 14:33 |
| ajo | also mrunge offered me support on this regard from horizon | 14:33 |
| ajo | but we need to settle the api first | 14:33 |
| vhoward | thats great | 14:33 |
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| sc68cal | API is the only thing blocking everyone from working in parallel | 14:33 |
| vikram | yup.. probably he will there next week.. but if doesn't turn up then we got to start | 14:33 |
| ajo | irenab, of course, how do other *aaS do that? | 14:33 |
| sadasu | ajo: I will be taking up the UCSM (agent less) plugin | 14:33 |
| ajo | irenab, they let DB being read and they notify on changes? | 14:33 |
| ajo | sadasu: +1 | 14:34 |
| ajo | thanks :) | 14:34 |
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| mrunge | ajo, sorry? | 14:34 |
| ajo | mrunge talking about QoS API <-> horizon integration, | 14:34 |
| ajo | we have a volunteer to do it (not you), and I was commenting that you offered me support to show me how to do it.. | 14:34 |
| irenab | ajo: other services rely mainly on L3 agent, its a bit different | 14:34 |
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| vikram | I can also contribute for neutron-pythonclient and neutron server implementation for db updation | 14:35 |
| mrunge | ajo, I did? if yes, I seem to forgot that, but of course! | 14:35 |
| ajo | irenab, ok, we will need to sort that out, | 14:35 |
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| ajo | mrunge: private talk near the RDO both, next to larsk (I hope I'm not pinging the wrong mrunge) :D | 14:35 |
| mrunge | oops | 14:36 |
| mrunge | :D | 14:36 |
| ajo | vikram, true, we need also to handle the neutron-python client, thanks for stepping up ;D | 14:36 |
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| ajo | irenab, if you have some time, we can work on next meeting agenda during mon/tues next week | 14:37 |
| vikram | ajo; Let's as you mentioned lets decide next week about work distribution once the spec is approved. | 14:37 |
| ajo | to check all steps we need to figure out the design and what are the pain points we need to talk about | 14:37 |
| irenab | ajo: fine | 14:37 |
| vikram | and we probably should have the advanced service framework to start rolling with the work | 14:38 |
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| ajo | I wonder if we have some sort of *aaS template for neutron :) | 14:38 |
| vikram | I have done it earlier, if you need I can do it | 14:39 |
| vikram | I have done for Juno | 14:39 |
| ajo | thanks vikram :) | 14:39 |
| vikram | Ok will prepare before next week meeting and share | 14:39 |
| ajo | awesome vikram :) | 14:40 |
| ajo | #action ajo update spec for API & OVS agent | 14:40 |
| ajo | #action irenab & ajo work on agenda for next week about design | 14:40 |
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| ajo | #action vikram prepare an *aaS template for the case we go out tree, or to put in-tree... as we finally decide | 14:41 |
| ajo | #action vhoward work on the DSCP rule spec | 14:41 |
| sc68cal | vhoward: let me know if you need help on it | 14:41 |
| ajo | and I guess that's all I didn't action-log | 14:41 |
| ajo | ;) | 14:41 |
| ajo | ok, shall we endmeeting ? :) | 14:42 |
| irenab | yes :-) | 14:42 |
| sc68cal | +1 | 14:42 |
| ajo | #endmeeting | 14:42 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:42 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 27 14:42:19 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:42 |
| sadasu | +1 :-) | 14:42 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_qos/2015/neutron_qos.2015-05-27-14.01.html | 14:42 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_qos/2015/neutron_qos.2015-05-27-14.01.txt | 14:42 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_qos/2015/neutron_qos.2015-05-27-14.01.log.html | 14:42 |
| sadasu | thanks | 14:42 |
| ajo | Thanks everyone for joining | 14:42 |
| vikram | Bye | 14:42 |
| ajo | c u :) | 14:42 |
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| mestery | Courtesy ping for neutron-drivers meeting: armax dougwig amotoki marun | 15:30 |
| armax | aye | 15:30 |
| dougwig | impolite ack for mestery | 15:30 |
| mestery | #startmeeting neutron-drivers | 15:30 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 27 15:30:53 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:30 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 15:30 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers' | 15:30 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NeutronDrivers Agenda | 15:31 |
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| mestery | Anything I missed for the agenda folks? | 15:31 |
| armax | no, it’s better to start small | 15:31 |
| dougwig | wasn't there a discussing of meeting times awhile back? | 15:31 |
| mestery | dougwig: Yeah, this is what we settled on, or did I get that wrong? | 15:31 |
| dougwig | oh, ok, no worries. i thought it was left hanging. | 15:31 |
| mestery | OK | 15:32 |
| mestery | lets get rolling | 15:32 |
| mestery | #topic New Spec Template | 15:32 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New Spec Template (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 15:32 | |
| armax | do we wait for amotoki and marun? | 15:32 |
| mestery | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/182905/ | 15:32 |
| marun | \o | 15:32 |
| mestery | marun: Hello! | 15:32 |
| marun | I'd like to see the spec template cut down to use case definition only. | 15:33 |
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| mestery | I kind of like the direction it's going | 15:33 |
| marun | mestery: hello! | 15:33 |
| mestery | marun: There is concern that for some things we do need a discussion on the API before the code merges (VLAN aware VMs for example) | 15:33 |
| marun | mestery: there is nothing stopping that from happening... | 15:33 |
| dougwig | or the high high high level design. | 15:33 |
| marun | dougwig: there is nothing stopping that from happening | 15:33 |
| mestery | marun: With a trimmed down spec? | 15:34 |
| marun | but I don't think the spec is the place to do it | 15:34 |
| marun | for the simple reason that it continues the trend of conflating problem statement with implementation | 15:34 |
| mestery | marun: Fair enough | 15:34 |
| marun | and that has caused us lots of trouble in the past | 15:34 |
| armax | I think there are many places where that discussion can take place: the bug report or even the initial code patch that proposes the api/model changes | 15:34 |
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| mestery | So, given this, do we want dougwig to reformulate his patch one more time? | 15:34 |
| dougwig | we're down to problem description, proposed change, assignee, work items, and references. marun, are you suggesting that get trimmed to just problem description? | 15:34 |
| armax | frankly I am a bit baffled by teh use of the spec in such a case | 15:34 |
| marun | dougwig: yes | 15:35 |
| marun | armax: use-case only | 15:35 |
| marun | 'what problem are we trying to solve' | 15:35 |
| armax | in the end we’d be replicating json blobs and fatty tables for nothing | 15:35 |
| marun | I really think we need to think about that in isolation, at least at first | 15:35 |
| dougwig | hang on. who wants to have a design discussion in launchpad, or AFTER coding? not me. | 15:35 |
| mestery | marun: Documentation lands with implementation then | 15:35 |
| armax | marun: use cases it is, and that’s what dougwig did | 15:35 |
| mestery | And the spec is only the problem we're trying to solve | 15:35 |
| marun | no, not suggesting that dougwig | 15:35 |
| marun | high level design is post-use case discussion | 15:35 |
| marun | and in-tree | 15:35 |
| marun | we can link to it from the spec | 15:36 |
| marun | (my suggestion, anyway) | 15:36 |
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| marun | I think the goal should be separating the decision of goals from strategy | 15:36 |
| armax | however IMO it’s important to try and capture the amount of work required, hence the work items section | 15:36 |
| marun | decision -> discussion | 15:36 |
| marun | armax: so you're advocating mixing things up, still | 15:36 |
| dougwig | i'm just pondering that as a dev, and it's kinda yuck. i need to file in LP, file a spec, file a devref, and only then start coding? that's hella latency. | 15:36 |
| armax | how so? | 15:36 |
| dougwig | just IMO. | 15:36 |
| marun | dougwig: why? | 15:36 |
| marun | dougwig: today, mixing those things means things are slow | 15:36 |
| mestery | marun: I see dougwig's point about it being heavy handed at first, but maybe once we try it it won't be so bad? | 15:37 |
| marun | dougwig: do things separately, there might be room for actually coming to agreement | 15:37 |
| marun | dougwig: as opposed to bikeshedding for ever | 15:37 |
| dougwig | marun: i like to use the spec to get everyone on the same page. here's the feature, here's why, here's the basic gist of how, so i know i'm not wasting coding time. making that at least two code reviews is going to take quite awhile of real time. | 15:37 |
| marun | again, I'm not wedded to doing any one thing anywhere | 15:37 |
| mestery | marun: You are mainly advocating separating goals from strategy? | 15:38 |
| dougwig | i'm also not averse to having a short template and still putting N/A in half of it if you want to do it another way. | 15:38 |
| marun | but I'm going to be pretty disappointed if we continue to confuse 'what' with 'how' | 15:38 |
| armax | i am not sure latency is a problem exarcerbated by this proposal, actually | 15:38 |
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| marun | mestery: yeah | 15:38 |
| dougwig | armax: put yourself in the shoes of someone that doesn't know a dozen cores to expedite things. | 15:39 |
| armax | some of the things that we have discussed in the spec so far can be more effectively discussed in the code | 15:39 |
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| marun | I think that we tend to go deep in implementation before we've really firmed up what we're trying to do | 15:39 |
| mestery | So, if the "what" is in LP as an RFE bug, and the "how" is in devref, why do we need a spec? | 15:39 |
| marun | And it causes problems on a number of axis | 15:39 |
| armax | and the result of the review cycle is that you already have code into shape | 15:39 |
| mestery | I'm trying to wrap my head around what a spec is providing in this new world order. | 15:39 |
| marun | mestery: I'd be ok with that approach - it's what we originally discussed - but it didn't seem to satisfy sdague from what I heard | 15:39 |
| dougwig | so, we don't differ on letting folks write up a how if they want to before coding. we're just talking about the cosmetics of where and to what audience we aim the writing, right? | 15:40 |
| marun | dougwig: I think so, yeah. | 15:40 |
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| mestery | marun: I think in general the ops like specs, so moving away from it seemed challenging | 15:40 |
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| marun | dougwig: I think we want high level design before coding begins | 15:40 |
| mestery | dougwig: ++ | 15:40 |
| dougwig | that comes down to, do we think we'll end up with better dev docs, at the cost of easier discoverability? | 15:40 |
| dougwig | (waits for explosions.) | 15:40 |
| armax | I think that the spec to me is about scoping | 15:40 |
| mestery | dougwig: Good summary and ... BOOM! | 15:40 |
| mestery | armax: Scoping in terms of how much work and how long? | 15:41 |
| armax | yes | 15:41 |
| marun | armax: why don't we scope post use-case? | 15:41 |
| armax | you can scope by use case | 15:41 |
| armax | and that’s feature or product scoping | 15:41 |
| marun | dougwig: what's the discoverability cost? not doing everything in one place? | 15:41 |
| marun | armax: I think we can only scope post use-case | 15:42 |
| mestery | marun: That and not being consistent with where things are archived vs. other projects I guess. | 15:42 |
| mestery | marun: Agree on scoping post-use case | 15:42 |
| armax | the amount of use cases can give you a sense of how much it takes to implement the end-to-end solution | 15:42 |
| dougwig | specs is easier to browse for reviews, especially for newer folks. i'm also fairly fond of the atomicity of specs for agreeing to consensus, but i can see that's personal opinion. | 15:42 |
| armax | marun: but that happens in iteration while writing the spec! | 15:42 |
| marun | mestery: if we link to dev docs in specs though? | 15:42 |
| marun | dougwig: I think it's a pretty huge cost review-wise | 15:42 |
| marun | armax: *sigh* | 15:43 |
| mestery | marun: That solves it, but adds another layer (the filing of the spec) | 15:43 |
| marun | armax: we're reinventing project management, badly. | 15:43 |
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| armax | marun: no need to be sorrow…I am happy to back down | 15:43 |
| dougwig | marun: how so? we're talking maybe 5-10% of RFE's *needing* specs, it's not mandatory unless requested, and how is reviewing in -specs different than in devref/ ? in most cases, it just happens as an RFE and code. | 15:43 |
| mestery | :) | 15:43 |
| marun | dougwig: I'm simply burned out. | 15:43 |
| armax | marun: there is no single way of doing this | 15:43 |
| marun | The bottom line for me is that I'm tired of wasting effort. | 15:44 |
| marun | It's my feeling that conflating use cases with implementation with scoping with work items is just too messy. | 15:44 |
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| mestery | I think separating use cases out using RFEs is good | 15:45 |
| marun | But if I'm the only one that feels that way, maybe my view shouldn't be considered. | 15:45 |
| dougwig | i'm not sure how to respond to that. we're either reviewing designs for big stuff in devref or specs. we're not adding a hoop here, unless i'm missing something. it's still gone for most stuff. | 15:45 |
| armax | but no-one is mentioning implementation, afaik | 15:45 |
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| marun | dougwig: it's separation of concerns | 15:45 |
| marun | dougwig: put everything in one big pile, and it's pretty hard to do anything well. | 15:45 |
| armax | work items != design or implementation | 15:45 |
| dougwig | \n\n <-- separation. (sorry, morning humor.) | 15:45 |
| marun | again, it appears that I'm the only one that feels this way so I'm going to suggest consensus rules and we can move on. | 15:46 |
| mestery | OK, lets collect comments on dougwig's patch then | 15:46 |
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| mestery | And he can re-roll as needed | 15:46 |
| mestery | Sound fair? | 15:46 |
| dougwig | alright, we've got a process that is heavily stream-lined, uses RFEs for almost everything, and we're down to what i think amounts to personal preference for where the larger conversations happen. how do we resolve this? | 15:46 |
| armax | the only reason I think that work items could be useful to capture in teh spec is because they can give us a sense of how big and impactful the feature is, perhaps any feature worth of a spec is big and impactful and on that basis it can be ignored as it gives us no more information | 15:46 |
| mestery | armax: I'm with you on that, I guess the sticky point is where we capture that stuff. | 15:47 |
| marun | dougwig: it's resolved. I'll stop complaining. | 15:47 |
| dougwig | armax: that was my basic reply to your comments. if i have to comment on models and rpc and such, it's more detailed than i wanted, and is basically back to the old spec template. | 15:47 |
| armax | so I am ok if we only had description and proposed change | 15:47 |
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| armax | and that should happen by clarifying the use cases being addressed | 15:47 |
| armax | if this doesn’t work, we’ll revisit 6 months from now | 15:47 |
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| armax | dougwig: that’s ok | 15:48 |
| mestery | dougwig: Do you have enough info to move forward now? Have we resolved the concerns raised here? | 15:48 |
| * mestery isn't sure yet | 15:48 | |
| dougwig | i have enough to chop it down further, yes. i didn't hear consensus yet, but i'll see how close we can get. | 15:49 |
| armax | I think we do, let’s have dougwig respin and marun review | 15:49 |
| armax | and mestery and I will follow | 15:49 |
| mestery | #action dougwig to re-spin the patch and everyone to review again | 15:49 |
| mestery | Lets move on to the next item here. Sound ok? | 15:49 |
| armax | shortly after | 15:49 |
| mestery | #topic RFE Bug Review | 15:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "RFE Bug Review (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 15:50 | |
| mestery | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bugs?field.tag=rfe | 15:50 |
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| mestery | We have 9 RFE bugs filed now | 15:50 |
| mestery | Shall we walk through them? | 15:50 |
| mestery | This entire process is new, so lets see what we can come up with here | 15:50 |
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| * armax wishes that list stayed so small | 15:50 | |
| mestery | OK | 15:50 |
| mestery | First one | 15:50 |
| mestery | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1459030 | 15:50 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1459030 in neutron "Add dns_label to Neutron port" [Wishlist,Confirmed] - Assigned to Miguel Lavalle (minsel) | 15:50 |
| mestery | First off | 15:51 |
| mestery | Is this the type of use case we envisioned with this new process? | 15:51 |
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| marun | filing a spec first? | 15:51 |
| marun | no | 15:51 |
| mestery | marun: In this case, I think carl_baldwin filed the spec before the RFE process started | 15:52 |
| mestery | I think he was just trying to comply post-fact | 15:52 |
| mestery | I recall a discussion with him 2 weeks ago | 15:52 |
| dougwig | this feature is tiny enough that i wouldn't expect a spec was needed. | 15:52 |
| mestery | So, marun, please comment on the bug that we wan to tease out the use case more here, and less on the spec | 15:52 |
| mestery | dougwig: Honestly, yes. | 15:52 |
| marun | is the spec even matching up with the rfe? | 15:53 |
| marun | the spec is 337 lines | 15:53 |
| marun | that's probably a diversion | 15:53 |
| mestery | I think the use case is simple here: We need a way to integrate Designate with Neutron | 15:53 |
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| armax | may I be pedantic? | 15:53 |
| mestery | armax: I expect nothing less | 15:54 |
| mestery | ;) | 15:54 |
| armax | :) | 15:54 |
| carl_baldwin | mestery: This is more about allowing nova to feed its hostname to Neutron for eventually integration with Designate. | 15:54 |
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| armax | I think it’s going to be hard to get people to write good RFE | 15:54 |
| mestery | At first, yes, but after a while, the RFEs will be awesome armax, just wait and see. | 15:54 |
| mestery | I'm serious | 15:54 |
| armax | the bug report is more about the how than the what | 15:54 |
| mestery | Look at specs last year, same thing. | 15:54 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: Cool! And please, we're not picking on you or your RFE, this is the first attempt at this process so we're all a little green as we go through this. :) | 15:55 |
| armax | carl_baldwin said it correctly now IMO: allowing nova to feed its hostname to Neutron for eventually integration with Designate | 15:55 |
| armax | the how is ‘Add dns_label to Neutron port’, but that can be just one of the how’s | 15:55 |
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| armax | mestery: +1 indeed | 15:55 |
| * carl_baldwin knows when he’s being picked on | 15:55 | |
| mestery | :) | 15:55 |
| * armax does not pick | 15:55 | |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: Any chance you could update the description to more of a "What" then the "how"? | 15:56 |
| marun | So, action item to provide examples/docs around use-case definition? | 15:56 |
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| marun | Not something heavy and formal, but emphasizing the 'what'? | 15:56 |
| dougwig | is this only about designate, or is it also fixing the bug of dnsmasq not setting the hostname? | 15:56 |
| mestery | dougwig: I *think* the latter is a separate issue | 15:56 |
| marun | that's what use cases are supposed to let us figure out | 15:57 |
| marun | if something isn't in the use case, it's out of scope unless the use case gets updated | 15:57 |
| marun | that friction is intentional | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | dougwig: dnsmasq can set the hostname if nova gives it to Neutron. | 15:57 |
| marun | so that we don't creep at every step | 15:57 |
| carl_baldwin | Both are in the description. It isn’t very long. | 15:58 |
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| dougwig | the spirit of this process is getting folks quickly on the same page and getting things rolling, right? we can either go retro-edit the RFE to be exactly what the process wants, and or just say, "go", since the info is there in some form, and the process is new, and this isn't terribly complicated. i'd vote "go". | 15:59 |
| armax | one question I have a process | 16:00 |
| marun | sure, 'go' | 16:00 |
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| armax | what does moving to ‘confirmed’ mean? | 16:00 |
| marun | I'm not trying to hold carl up. I'd just like to see us learn from this. | 16:00 |
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| mestery | marun: ++, we're learning as we go here. | 16:00 |
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| armax | that the RFE is blessed to happen? | 16:00 |
| mestery | armax: enikanorov_ spoke to me and we agreed that we had to mvoe them out of new so confirmed seemed appropriate. | 16:01 |
| mestery | armax: No, just so it's not new and it doesn't cause our stats to look awful :) | 16:01 |
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| mestery | Open to another state if it makes more sense | 16:01 |
| mestery | Triaged would also work once we've looked at these. | 16:01 |
| dougwig | or targeting it to a milestone. | 16:01 |
| armax | mestery: ok | 16:01 |
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| mestery | dougwig: Yes. | 16:02 |
| mestery | So, we're all +1 on this RFE? | 16:02 |
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| carl_baldwin | That brings up a question. Does it make sense for Eugene to triage rfe bugs? He set importance and status which may have different meanings in this context. | 16:02 |
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| armax | the only reason why I am asking is that as a neutron driver I’d want to see how that list varies over time and what new stuff I need to review | 16:02 |
| armax | and I don’t want to necessarily rely on my email notifications to know what’s going on | 16:02 |
| mestery | I think it makes sense for hte drivers team to triage these ones | 16:02 |
| mestery | armax: Me either | 16:03 |
| marun | carl_baldwin: I don't think it does. Having things tagged rfe should be the only thing necessary to bring it to feature triaging. | 16:03 |
| armax | I’d like to have a filter I can use to see the ‘unvetted’ RFE's | 16:03 |
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| mestery | armax: You're always asking for more :) | 16:03 |
| armax | an initial ‘confirmed’ state is fine, so does this mean that as soon as one driver look and comment on the change, the bug goes to triaged? | 16:03 |
| mestery | armax: I think we'd need some sort of consensus perhaps, but maybe that's not right either | 16:04 |
| enikanorov_ | carl_baldwin: probably i've set importance to a few 'bugs' before guessing that it is a new process | 16:04 |
| mestery | OK | 16:04 |
| mestery | 25 minutes left | 16:04 |
| mestery | Lets circle back here | 16:04 |
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| mestery | And decide what to do with this particular RFE | 16:04 |
| mestery | So we close the loop on the process for our first RFE | 16:04 |
| armax | ship it? | 16:05 |
| mestery | :) | 16:05 |
| armax | :) | 16:05 |
| marun | ship it | 16:05 |
| mestery | :) | 16:05 |
| mestery | I thought perhaps I'd involve the Lt. for the area it's touching, to ensure resources exist, etc. | 16:05 |
| mestery | But given that hasn't merged yet | 16:05 |
| mestery | For this one, I agree, ship it. | 16:06 |
| dougwig | +1 | 16:06 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: Do you have someone who is working on this? Is it you? | 16:06 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: Looking for guidance on a milestone to assing this one to. Liberty-1 is in 3 weeks, is that doable? | 16:06 |
| marun | mestery: +1 to delegating when possible | 16:06 |
| mestery | marun: Yes, that's the approach I'll take once the Lt. patch merges | 16:06 |
| carl_baldwin | mlavalle is going to drive this one with the help of some Designate guys. | 16:06 |
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| mestery | carl_baldwin: Does Liberty-1 seem feasiable? | 16:07 |
| carl_baldwin | I’m not going to be very hands-on at all here. | 16:07 |
| dougwig | i'm hoping/praying that as the process is refined, a driver or lt can just move the rfe along in the process without needing to hold a meeting. :) | 16:07 |
| armax | so, we said the spec here is not required, right? | 16:07 |
| mestery | dougwig: The one missing piece is ensuring resources are available, but yeah, less meetings. | 16:07 |
| mestery | armax: Yes | 16:07 |
| carl_baldwin | mestery: I’m not sure L-1 is feasible for full designate integration. | 16:07 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: I've moved it to L1 for now, we'll move it out if it's not done | 16:08 |
| armax | however, do we take some of the design considerations in the devref itself? | 16:08 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: But this lets mlavelle at least start pushing patches | 16:08 |
| armax | It looks like there were a few backs and forths on the spec itself | 16:08 |
| carl_baldwin | But, if we treat this as just the work to add dns_label field and the associated validation, then L-1 is feasible. | 16:08 |
| mestery | armax: Yes, that's right. | 16:08 |
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| dougwig | armax: or the code, if it hits in parallel. | 16:09 |
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| armax | ok | 16:09 |
| mestery | OK, shall we move on and try another one of these? | 16:09 |
| mestery | We have an example from the other side of the spectrum now | 16:09 |
| mestery | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1450617 | 16:09 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1450617 in neutron "Neutron extension to support service chaining" [Undecided,In progress] - Assigned to cathy Hong Zhang (cathy-h-zhang) | 16:09 |
| mestery | Service chaining | 16:10 |
| armax | dougwig: to me most of the spec content would be candidate for a devref doc that says ‘dns resolution in Neutron' | 16:10 |
| * mestery reads the "use case" | 16:10 | |
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| armax | mestery: I think that this is not a neutron extension | 16:10 |
| dougwig | the third rfe is a dup, right? | 16:10 |
| mestery | dougwig: I hope so | 16:10 |
| mestery | armax: This, as written, is a LOT of things | 16:11 |
| armax | the scope of this is so broad that it’s an entirely new system | 16:11 |
| dougwig | this, to me, is either a bunch of RFE's, or a spec, or both. | 16:11 |
| mestery | armax: Crisply put, the RFE is right: Neutron does not support service chaining. But I don't see enough about the "why" here | 16:11 |
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| mestery | dougwig: ++ | 16:11 |
| dougwig | back up, is this something that has to be in neutron, or started outside? | 16:11 |
| armax | I’d rather see RFE’s that tells me what you need from Neutron to support integration with an SFC system | 16:11 |
| mestery | There is no reason this needs to be in Neutron | 16:12 |
| mestery | It could be outside as an extension API of some sort | 16:12 |
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| armax | yes | 16:12 |
| mestery | dougwig: You mentioned multiple RFEs, I think you're right. | 16:12 |
| mestery | Splitting this into finer use cases would help | 16:13 |
| armax | I can go over the bug report and advise cathy | 16:13 |
| mestery | marun: Curious on your thoughts on this one, given it's at the opposite side of the previous one in the spectrum of RFEs | 16:13 |
| armax | if you guys trust me, we can move on to the next bug | 16:13 |
| mestery | armax: I trust you :0 | 16:13 |
| mestery | I'm good to move on | 16:13 |
| armax | I mean, we can continue discussing | 16:13 |
| dougwig | armax: i trust you, but i wonder, if this should start outside, does it need to go through our process? | 16:13 |
| armax | but it most likely take us all day | 16:13 |
| marun | mestery: I think the idea should be to file rfe's for capabilities required to do this out of the tree. | 16:13 |
| armax | dougwig: indeed | 16:13 |
| mestery | marun: ++, armax is in agreement as well I think | 16:13 |
| mestery | ok lets move on | 16:14 |
| mestery | and skip the next one too | 16:14 |
| armax | dougwig: my point is that I am going to work on cathy to steer her in the right direction | 16:14 |
| mestery | armax has that one covered too | 16:14 |
| mestery | Which leads us here | 16:14 |
| dougwig | armax: +1 | 16:14 |
| mestery | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1453906 | 16:14 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1453906 in neutron "Implement Routing Networks in Neutron" [Undecided,New] | 16:14 |
| mestery | Another carl_baldwin RFE! :) | 16:14 |
| * carl_baldwin has been busy. | 16:14 | |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: Indeed ;) | 16:14 |
| carl_baldwin | Actually, we may want to discuss this a bit more and how it fits with the one mestery filed yesterday about segments. | 16:15 |
| mestery | There is interest in this sort of thing, thus the one I filed: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1458890 | 16:15 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1458890 in neutron "Add segment support to Neutron" [Undecided,Confirmed] | 16:15 |
| carl_baldwin | Also, I don’t have anyone to delegate this to yet. Hope to soon. | 16:15 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: This is clearly an L3 thing, so we'll need to find someone there, I'll work with you | 16:16 |
| carl_baldwin | We should probably take this one offline, mestery. | 16:16 |
| mestery | to help if you want it | 16:16 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: Ack | 16:16 |
| * mestery notes all the remaining RFEs are from carl_baldwin :) | 16:16 | |
| mestery | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1453921 | 16:16 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1453921 in neutron "Implement Address Scopes" [Undecided,New] | 16:16 |
| carl_baldwin | I guess others just haven’t caught on yet. ;) | 16:17 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: I may use you as an example at next week's neutron meeting if you're ok with it :) | 16:17 |
| mestery | In a good way ;) | 16:17 |
| dougwig | process question, do we all need to parse the fine details and agree, or is it enough to read enough to be able to say, "yes, this fits, the subject matter expert should definitely proceed" kind of deal? | 16:17 |
| carl_baldwin | Sure, good or bad, I’m happy to be an example. | 16:17 |
| armax | it sounds some of these bugs are just placeholder :( | 16:17 |
| mestery | dougwig: Ideally we just review this on our own time, comment in the bug, and use this meeting for contentious things. | 16:18 |
| mestery | Make sense? | 16:18 |
| * armax goes to read the spec :( | 16:18 | |
| carl_baldwin | armax: I’m not sure what else they should be. Until I know what is wanted, I hesitate to add much detail. | 16:18 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: yes, we’d need an RFE bug template :) | 16:18 |
| mestery | armax: We're working through the new process yet, I applaud carl_baldwin for being the first into the water :) | 16:18 |
| dougwig | mestery: define reviewing. in a waterfall model, it'd need to be near perfect before work begins. in a more agile model, the rough cut has to be right, and is refined as it goes. i prefer the latter, but am checking. | 16:19 |
| mestery | armax: o_O | 16:19 |
| mestery | dougwig: I just meant reviewing the high-level RFEs, all we're agreeing by reviewing and saying "yes" is we agree the use case is compelling, we'll review the design later. | 16:19 |
| armax | mestery: true, but if we don’t try harder, the way RFE’s are filed is useless | 16:19 |
| mestery | armax: I agree completely, but we'll sort this out. | 16:19 |
| armax | it’s just a checkmark | 16:19 |
| armax | perhaps it makes sense to mandate RFE only for ‘new’ ‘new’ stuff? | 16:20 |
| marun | I do think having guidelines around rfe description makes sense | 16:20 |
| armax | and deal with the backlog the way we used to until it drains? | 16:20 |
| mestery | marun: Would you be up for adding an RFE template into devref somewhere? That way we can point people there. | 16:21 |
| armax | marun: +1 | 16:21 |
| mestery | If not, I can take a crack, but you have some distinct ideas here which are worth putting down. | 16:21 |
| armax | marun: where would we capture it? In the blueprints.rst that Kyle modified? | 16:21 |
| mestery | armax: Yes. | 16:21 |
| marun | that sounds reasonable | 16:21 |
| mestery | I think it makes sense there for this RFE bug template to live, it can provide guidance. | 16:22 |
| dougwig | we should file an RFE about making an RFE template. but, without the template... segfault. | 16:22 |
| armax | as for existing specs, I am leaning to think that we should probably not ask them to map to RFE’s | 16:22 |
| armax | it’s work for work’s sake | 16:22 |
| mestery | #action marun to add an RFE template into blueprints.rst in devref | 16:22 |
| marun | I don't know about a template, I just want expectations to be clear | 16:22 |
| mestery | marun: Some sort of guidance | 16:22 |
| armax | especially if people file bugs like https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1453921 | 16:22 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1453921 in neutron "Implement Address Scopes" [Undecided,New] | 16:22 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: not picking | 16:22 |
| mestery | armax: I get you | 16:22 |
| mestery | And in fact, note the last item on our agenda today | 16:22 |
| armax | and asking them to ‘redo’ the work isn’t that going to get latency down either | 16:22 |
| mestery | Discuss migrating existing proposed specs into RFEs | 16:22 |
| armax | mestery: see? I am ahead of you ;) | 16:23 |
| mestery | armax: It's just that great minds think alike :) | 16:23 |
| mestery | But yeah, lets not make people do work for work's skae | 16:23 |
| mestery | *sake | 16:23 |
| armax | what do others think? | 16:23 |
| mestery | So, existing specs, I'm inclined to leave them as-is and review them there. | 16:23 |
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| marun | I think the point of migrating to rfe is rejecting things before in-depth review if we don't want to do them. | 16:23 |
| armax | anything new => RFE, we need RFE guidelines fast | 16:24 |
| armax | and dougwig’s new shiny spec template | 16:24 |
| carl_baldwin | I thought that rfes and specs served different purposes. | 16:24 |
| dougwig | i agree with armax. if the process is about cutting down make-work, then adding make-work to conform to the new process, when we have enough info to proceed, is ... inconsistent. | 16:24 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: they do | 16:24 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: but only when done properly | 16:24 |
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| armax | carl_baldwin: for stuff that’s already in-flight, I am not sure we’re gaining much | 16:25 |
| carl_baldwin | armax: So, use it to provide constructive feedback. | 16:25 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: I am | 16:25 |
| carl_baldwin | Are we not gaining anything from it? | 16:25 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: I am saying let’s not ask exsiting specs to go through the rfe process | 16:25 |
| mestery | I think we're all in agreement here. Focus on the end goal. | 16:25 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: it’s artificial | 16:26 |
| mestery | And try to minimize the churn for folks submitting things | 16:26 |
| armax | as your bug report demonstratd | 16:26 |
| mestery | But new things, unsbumitted, need to be RFEs first. | 16:26 |
| armax | so I’d say let’s be ready first: get guidelines and spec template first | 16:26 |
| dougwig | armax: what are you wanting to see in RFE's that carl didn't have? i saw enough to see what he wanted to build, and form an initial opinion of, 'yes ,that fits', or 'no, not really', or 'jeez'. what was missing? | 16:26 |
| armax | and ask people to follow the new model for new stuff | 16:26 |
| dougwig | armax: or i'll wait to see what marun writes up. | 16:27 |
| mestery | 3 minutes left | 16:27 |
| armax | dougwig: I’d be keep to see what marun’s ideas are | 16:27 |
| carl_baldwin | There’s a lot of old stuff. How long do you want to perpetuate the old model, until they’re all gone? Or will there be some cutoff? | 16:27 |
| mestery | I think we can summarize as this: 1) marun writes up guildeines. 2) review existing things as-is. 3) new things need RFEs (following marun's guidelines) | 16:27 |
| armax | all I am trying to say: let’s save process if process can be save | 16:27 |
| armax | d | 16:27 |
| armax | carl_baldwin can be commended for taking the time for filing bugs etc | 16:27 |
| armax | but that can be a pain for some folks | 16:27 |
| * mestery gives carl_baldwin a gold star | 16:27 | |
| * carl_baldwin doesn’t have any use for gold stars. Just wants a clear path forward. He’s not the only one who is going to be confused by this. | 16:28 | |
| * carl_baldwin is also sorry he wasted 3.5 minutes filing https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1453921 and making you all read it. | 16:28 | |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1453921 in neutron "Implement Address Scopes" [Undecided,New] | 16:28 |
| armax | carl_baldwin: indeed, there has not been much clarity, that’s what we’re trying to figure out | 16:28 |
| carl_baldwin | I personally don’t think that specs for old stuff and rfes for new stuff is clear. | 16:29 |
| carl_baldwin | There will be old specs around for years. | 16:29 |
| carl_baldwin | And to know what’s in scope for Liberty? Where do I check? | 16:30 |
| mestery | We're out of time | 16:30 |
| mestery | carl_baldwin: all godo questions | 16:30 |
| mestery | And we need answers | 16:30 |
| mestery | And I'm on the hook to provide them | 16:30 |
| mestery | Thanks folks! | 16:30 |
| mestery | #endmeeting | 16:30 |
| armax | I think we can clear the backlog as we did in Kilo | 16:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:30 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 27 16:30:26 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:30 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-05-27-15.30.html | 16:30 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-05-27-15.30.txt | 16:30 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2015/neutron_drivers.2015-05-27-15.30.log.html | 16:30 |
| * mestery moves to #openstack-neutron | 16:30 | |
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| * carl_baldwin notes that no decision was made about the spec or the rfe. | 16:31 | |
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| yushiro | Hi, vishwanathj SridarK | 18:30 |
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| SridarK | Hi All | 18:30 |
| vishwanathj | Hi yushiro, SridarK, SumitNaiksatam... | 18:30 |
| badveli | hello all | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | yushiro: SridarK vishwanathj: badveli: hi | 18:30 |
| yushiro | Hi | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: missed you an the summit ;-) | 18:30 |
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| badveli | yes, i also | 18:31 |
| badveli | thanks guys | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #startmeeting Networking FWaaS | 18:31 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed May 27 18:31:15 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SumitNaiksatam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:31 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:31 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_fwaas' | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i believe people are still recovering from Vancouver ;-) | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and some might not be able to attend | 18:31 |
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| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: +1 | 18:32 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i am proposing we cover two topics today - Bugs, and Vancouver Retrospective | 18:32 |
| SridarK | :-) | 18:32 |
| SumitNaiksatam | everyone okay with that? | 18:32 |
| qwebirc32260 | Hi Sumit | 18:32 |
| pc_m | hi | 18:32 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: yes - i have a hard stop at noon for another mtg | 18:32 |
| SumitNaiksatam | qwebirc32260: pc_m: hi | 18:32 |
| * pc_m in another meeting, but will try to juggle | 18:32 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | qwebirc32260: is that vikram? | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Bugs | 18:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:33 | |
| qwebirc32260 | HI I am Yanping. I forgot change my name :-) | 18:33 |
| badveli | fine sumit, i need some info as per pc_m email exchange | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | qwebirc32260: ah, hi yanping, good to see you :-) | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1455863 | 18:34 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1455863 in neutron "FWAAS- FW Rule editing puts FW to error state " [Undecided,New] - Assigned to vikram.choudhary (vikschw) | 18:34 |
| SumitNaiksatam | its not clear how to reproduce the above, so i have put a comment in the bug report | 18:34 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/horizon/+bug/1454974 | 18:34 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1454974 in OpenStack Dashboard (Horizon) "FWAAS " [Undecided,New] | 18:34 |
| SumitNaiksatam | that seems like a bug, but i have not noticed it before | 18:34 |
| SumitNaiksatam | perhaps our Horizon guru vishwanathj can chime in on that ;-) | 18:35 |
| SumitNaiksatam | other than that no new bugs report | 18:35 |
| vishwanathj | Let me try later this week....am on new born baby duty since yesterday | 18:35 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwanathj: oh wow, sorry, i forgot that | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwanathj: so the baby is here? | 18:36 |
| badveli | congrats viswantahj | 18:36 |
| SridarK | vishwanathj: congrats i was surprised to see u here | 18:36 |
| vishwanathj | arrived yesterday afternoon | 18:36 |
| vishwanathj | FWaaS is also like a baby to me :) | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwanathj: awesome, hearty congrats on behalf of the entire team! | 18:36 |
| vishwanathj | thanks all | 18:36 |
| SridarK | vishwanathj: ur getting bad vibes from ur spouse now or ur avoiding diaper duty ;-) | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwanathj: absolutely appreciate your committment for the cause | 18:37 |
| yushiro | vishwanathj, awesome! | 18:37 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: +1 | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | on that happy note lets transition to the next topic | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Vancouver Retrospective | 18:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Vancouver Retrospective (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:37 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | personally, it was great for me to see a huge section of the team | 18:37 |
| vishwanathj | +1 | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | our team has grown quite a bit | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i believe the only people missing were badveli and trinath | 18:38 |
| vishwanathj | has trinath ever come to a summit? | 18:38 |
| SumitNaiksatam | regardless, i think we had some very helpful offline discussions | 18:38 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwanathj: good question, perhaps not :-( | 18:38 |
| badveli | next time | 18:38 |
| SridarK | absolutely was great to meet all | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | unfortunately its a pretty expensive trip if you are coming from India | 18:39 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: special thanks to you for your relentless coordination | 18:39 |
| vishwanathj | +1 | 18:39 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: no worries - was really great to meet all and have good discussions on FWaaS | 18:39 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | of the many things we discussed, we touched on the direction attribute in the FWaaS rules | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | is slaweq here? | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i believe SridarK you had a follow up with slaweq and vikram today? | 18:40 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: yes we had a long discussion | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | anyone would like to summarize for the benefit of the team? | 18:41 |
| SridarK | mainly to make sure that we have a model that works well and provides a consistent interface for good user experience | 18:41 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: i will try | 18:41 |
| SridarK | Mainly we wanted to apply the direction attribute at the Policy or (Firewall, Policy) level | 18:42 |
| SridarK | so this will be consistent for zones | 18:42 |
| SridarK | zones would be direction ++ | 18:42 |
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| SridarK | so it would an evolution rather than make a rework | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: yes, thanks for bringing up that angle | 18:43 |
| SumitNaiksatam | (the zones that is) | 18:43 |
| SridarK | so we would like these attributes to be at the same level and avoids any complex validation logic | 18:43 |
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| SridarK | Slawek and Vikram are okay with this | 18:43 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | slaweq: there? | 18:43 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: the other thing on related note was to explore multiple policies on a FW | 18:43 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: okay | 18:44 |
| SridarK | so we can support multiple values on a single FW (an ingress policy and an egress policy) for example | 18:44 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: we discussed this and few others also would like to see this | 18:45 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: let us put some thought into this as well | 18:45 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: the only issue with multiple policies is backward compatibility | 18:45 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: but we can think a little more | 18:45 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | the other big item was obviously was the design summit discussion regarding FWaaS and Security Groups | 18:46 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: ok yes that is a valid point but may be this can be done with optional | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: true | 18:46 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: i am done with the update we can discuss more later | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | an entire session was dedicated to this | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: thanks! | 18:46 |
| SridarK | np :-) | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | during the session we discussed the requirements for getting FWaaS out of experimental | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | which led to discussion on what are the differences between FWaaS and Security Groups | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | a hand poll was taken to see if anyone objected to having two separate APIs | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i believe there were more people in the room in support of separate APIs versus one consolidated API | 18:48 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: i felt that way too | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | however towards the end of the meeting the point was made that it needs to be clearly articulated as to what the points of diffirence between the two APIs and feature sets were | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and how they could be consumed | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: okay | 18:49 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | that was my short summary of the 40 minute session | 18:49 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | others present in the session please feel free to add color | 18:49 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: yes that was a very good summary | 18:50 |
| blogan | RED! | 18:50 |
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| vishwanathj | My takeaways on getting FWaaS out of experimental, 1) Complete the documentation tasks 2) Ensure functional tests are adequate and completed | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | also my understanding is that we as a FWaaS team, will continute to target features for Liberty (unless it was explicitly mentioned in some forum that we should not be doing so, and I missed it) | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | blogan: hi, was that an acronym? | 18:51 |
| blogan | I believe there was also a request to define the overlapping pieces with security groups and decide on whether those should be consolidated into the same API or not | 18:51 |
| blogan | SumitNaiksatam: you asked to add color, i like red :) | 18:52 |
| SumitNaiksatam | blogan: i know, but red was in agreement or disagreement? | 18:52 |
| vishwanathj | I remember talking to mestery and doug, they said FWaaS being experimental should not prevent us from filing any blue prints for new FWaaS features | 18:52 |
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| blogan | SumitNaiksatam: is me being dumb a good answer? | 18:53 |
| vishwanathj | :) | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | blogan: is your comment “I believe there was also a request to define the overlapping pieces with security groups and decide on whether those should be consolidated into the same API or not”, different from what I mentioned earlier “however towards the end of the meeting the point was made that it needs to be clearly articulated as to what the points of diffirence between the two APIs and feature sets were" | 18:54 |
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| blogan | SumitNaiksatam: yeah those are the same, sorry I didn't see you say that | 18:55 |
| SumitNaiksatam | blogan: no worries, i just want to make sure that for those who didnt attend the session they got the right summary out of this | 18:55 |
| blogan | SumitNaiksatam: though I will add that I remember something about not having both of the same features in the both APIs | 18:55 |
| SumitNaiksatam | such that people can accordingly decide how to orient their efforts | 18:55 |
| blogan | agreed | 18:56 |
| SumitNaiksatam | blogan: right | 18:56 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: there was also mention of SG alignment with AWS for portability | 18:56 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: right, that was good point from sc68cal | 18:56 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and it was one of the main reasons we started with the FWaaS API and abstraction in the first place, to be able to deal with features which are not represented or apply to security groups | 18:58 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | any other thoughts, comments, concerns on this discussion? | 18:58 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Open Discussion | 18:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:59 | |
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| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: i guess we will need to evolve this discussion to drive next steps. | 18:59 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: yes absolutely, the team is still absorbing this I believe :-) | 18:59 |
| SridarK | SumitNaiksatam: i will go to juggle mode - i have to get on another internal meeting | 18:59 |
| SridarK | yes | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | also, i think several people expresed the interest to work on independent features | 19:00 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | we will discuss those as the specs are posted | 19:00 |
| mestery | You folks are aware of the new specs process, no? | 19:00 |
| mestery | Certainly since you're part of hte Neutron Stadium you must be paying attention to things right? | 19:01 |
| vishwanathj | Specs can be submitted at any time | 19:01 |
| mestery | That's a small part of it | 19:01 |
| mestery | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/177342/ | 19:01 |
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| mestery | Also: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186095/ is under review | 19:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mestery: thanks for those links | 19:02 |
| mestery | I'll let you all digest that as you move forward, the tl;dr is we've moving to feature requests and documentaiton landing with the patches | 19:02 |
| mestery | Separating the "what" from the "how" | 19:02 |
| mestery | The intent is to make things easier to submit as well as review. | 19:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | mestery: +1 | 19:02 |
| SridarK | mestery: thanks yes for sure | 19:03 |
| slaweq | SumitNaiksatam: hello | 19:03 |
| SumitNaiksatam | slaweq: ah, you made it | 19:03 |
| slaweq | now I'm here, sorry for late but I had something to do :) | 19:03 |
| SumitNaiksatam | slaweq: no worries | 19:04 |
| slaweq | do You want something from me? | 19:04 |
| pc_m | mestery: So do request as LP bug, and then when approved do a spec? | 19:04 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK: summarized the discussion he had with you and Vikram | 19:04 |
| SumitNaiksatam | you can find it in the back scroll | 19:04 |
| slaweq | great | 19:04 |
| slaweq | thx SridarK :) | 19:04 |
| mestery | pc_m: No, waterfall design is a thing of the past, it wasn't working. | 19:04 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i believe the plan is that you are going to update the spec accordingly | 19:04 |
| mestery | pc_m: Do the RFE, if it's something huge whose intent is to make changes in many places, maybe a spec, otherwise, move forward with devref and code. | 19:05 |
| SridarK | slaweq: np at all we can discuss more as needed | 19:05 |
| slaweq | yes | 19:05 |
| pc_m | mestery: I have two BP that I want to create, could use some guidance on new process. | 19:05 |
| slaweq | SridarK: probably we will :) I will be in touch with You | 19:05 |
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| dougwig | pc_m: file an RFE bug, a driver or LT will confirm it and put it in a milestone, the drivers may request a spec sometimes, otherwise once the bug is marked by the drivers, just go for it. | 19:05 |
| SridarK | slaweq: np catch up later | 19:05 |
| slaweq | now I will modify our specs as we discussed today | 19:05 |
| mestery | pc_m: The second patch (under review) indicates up until Liberty-1 we'll review old-style specs, but if you haven't filed them, an RFE is the way to go. | 19:05 |
| vishwanathj | mestery, the patch set https://review.openstack.org/#/c/182905/ is also part of the new spec process, right? | 19:06 |
| pc_m | mestery: OK. thanks. so spec upon request then. cool. | 19:06 |
| mestery | vishwanathj: Yes, exactly. | 19:06 |
| mestery | pc_m: Even without a spec, devref documentation is the new thing. | 19:06 |
| pc_m | mestery: OK. And that is described in one of these reviews? | 19:07 |
| mestery | pc_m: Yes. | 19:07 |
| pc_m | mestery: ok. will check | 19:07 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | alright folks, anything else for today? | 19:08 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | thanks for joining | 19:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #endmeeting | 19:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:09 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed May 27 19:09:35 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:09 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2015/networking_fwaas.2015-05-27-18.31.html | 19:09 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2015/networking_fwaas.2015-05-27-18.31.txt | 19:09 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2015/networking_fwaas.2015-05-27-18.31.log.html | 19:09 |
| SridarK | bye all | 19:09 |
| yushiro | bye bye | 19:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | bye | 19:09 |
| slaweq | bye | 19:09 |
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| vishwanathj | bye all | 19:09 |
| badveli | i have a functional test written but as per pc_m | 19:09 |
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| badveli | will sync with sumit and pc_m | 19:10 |
| badveli | byt | 19:10 |
| qwebirc32260 | bye | 19:10 |
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