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| PaulMurray | #startmeeting Nova Live Migration | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Sep 13 14:00:36 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is PaulMurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_live_migration' | 14:00 |
| mdbooth | o/ | 14:00 |
| pkoniszewski | o/ | 14:00 |
| abhishekk | o/ | 14:00 |
| PaulMurray | hi all | 14:00 |
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| mriedem | o/ | 14:01 |
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| PaulMurray | agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Nova/Newton_Release_Schedule | 14:01 |
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| PaulMurray | release schedule says RC1 16th Sept | 14:02 |
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| mriedem | really EOD dansmith time on thursday | 14:02 |
| PaulMurray | that's friday | 14:02 |
| * mriedem updates wiki | 14:02 | |
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| PaulMurray | So we will go over the newton-ra-potential bugs | 14:03 |
| PaulMurray | but first | 14:03 |
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| PaulMurray | #topic CI | 14:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CI (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:04 | |
| PaulMurray | anything to do on CI ? | 14:04 |
| PaulMurray | I haven't kept track - so I wanted to make sure there is nothing urgent to attend to ? | 14:04 |
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| pkoniszewski | i'm trying to work on LM job with grenade, any advice would be helpful https://review.openstack.org/#/c/364809/ | 14:05 |
| pkoniszewski | heard that mriedem or dansmith tried to do something with that, but haven't found any patches yet | 14:05 |
| mdbooth | pkoniszewski: Relevant to the bug I'm working on, btw. Would definitely be good to get that. | 14:06 |
| mriedem | i haven't | 14:07 |
| PaulMurray | #link Add new job to test live migration with grenade https://review.openstack.org/#/c/364809/ | 14:07 |
| mriedem | we'd basically need a multinode grenade job to run live migration | 14:07 |
| mriedem | we already have multinode grenade jobs | 14:07 |
| mriedem | where n-cpu is backlevel on one compute | 14:07 |
| mriedem | i think we'd just need to flip the live migration flag in tempest in that job to test it | 14:07 |
| mriedem | but it would probably be experimental queue to start | 14:08 |
| pkoniszewski | okay, i will check that | 14:08 |
| mriedem | unless we used the in-tree hook | 14:08 |
| pkoniszewski | so I wanted to use in-tree hook, but those tests that we have right now are not enough | 14:08 |
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| pkoniszewski | we need tests that will live migrate an instance back and forth, in our tests we always just move an instance to another host and validate it | 14:08 |
| mdbooth | pkoniszewski: You thinking of cleanup bugs? | 14:09 |
| pkoniszewski | what do you mean? | 14:09 |
| mdbooth | Like the bug where you couldn't cold migrate back to a host because the instance directory hadn't been deleted? | 14:09 |
| pkoniszewski | also about this, but the priority for me is to check whether we can move VM between two versions in a basic scenario | 14:10 |
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| mdbooth | Ok | 14:10 |
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| PaulMurray | lets move on | 14:12 |
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| PaulMurray | #topic Bugs | 14:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: Nova Live Migration)" | 14:12 | |
| PaulMurray | Starting with live migration bugs on https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=newton-rc-potential | 14:12 |
| PaulMurray | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=newton-rc-potential | 14:12 |
| PaulMurray | I think the first is https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1605016 | 14:13 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1605016 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Post copy live migration interrupts network connectivity" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Matthew Booth (mbooth-9) | 14:13 |
| PaulMurray | that's the one mdbooth is looking at | 14:13 |
| PaulMurray | i see you have one patch up | 14:13 |
| mdbooth | So, it's taken me a while to get a 'reproducer' | 14:13 |
| mdbooth | And I'm still not 100% sure I'm testing the right thing, but I can see something | 14:14 |
| mdbooth | I don't currently think this is the show stopper it sounded like last week | 14:14 |
| mdbooth | Because of 2 things | 14:14 |
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| mdbooth | Firstly, the period after post-copy switch over is really short, because post-copy is really fast | 14:14 |
| mdbooth | and efficient | 14:15 |
| davidgiluk | mdbooth: That depends a little on how painful your workload is | 14:15 |
| mdbooth | Secondly, because even if you leave it alone and *never* call the network fixup stuff | 14:15 |
| mdbooth | Something fixes it up anyway | 14:15 |
| mdbooth | Max 60 seconds outage | 14:15 |
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| mdbooth | I'd love to know what that is, btw | 14:15 |
| mdbooth | I looked, but I don't know enough about neutron | 14:15 |
| davidgiluk | mdbooth: Yeh it's worrying knowing something is lurking fiddling with the config but not knowing what | 14:16 |
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| PaulMurray | mdbooth, that's with DVR | 14:16 |
| mdbooth | Yeah | 14:16 |
| PaulMurray | haleyb are you lurking ? | 14:16 |
| mdbooth | That said, I'm working on fixing it anyway | 14:16 |
| mdbooth | First patch is here, and it's an RPC change: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/369423/ | 14:17 |
| haleyb | PaulMurray: sort0-of, neutron meeting now too | 14:17 |
| mdbooth | I'd love to get eyes on ^^^ from somebody with a deep understanding of what those calls actually do for various backends | 14:17 |
| PaulMurray | I think the issue is there a variety of different neutron backend implementation and we don't know how hey all behave | 14:17 |
| mdbooth | I'm just shifting them around | 14:17 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: Yup. | 14:17 |
| PaulMurray | mdbooth, but 60 sec outage is a bummer | 14:18 |
| mdbooth | My initial testing of the above patch suggests it works fine, and slightly reduces the network outage in the non-post-copy case. | 14:18 |
| PaulMurray | #action please review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/369423/ | 14:19 |
| PaulMurray | do you have the follow on coming ? | 14:19 |
| mriedem | to be clear on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/369423/ , | 14:20 |
| mdbooth | I only just knocked that out this morning, so not yet :) | 14:20 |
| mriedem | if it doesn't make newton, it's probably not going to be backported b/c of the rpc change | 14:20 |
| PaulMurray | mdbooth, that was hours ago ! | 14:20 |
| mdbooth | However, the follow-on should be pretty simple in comparison, and won't involve rpc change | 14:20 |
| PaulMurray | :) | 14:20 |
| mdbooth | mriedem: Right. It would be great to get ^^^ in, even if we don't get the follow-on in | 14:20 |
| mdbooth | So please, eyes on that urgently. | 14:21 |
| PaulMurray | ok | 14:21 |
| PaulMurray | next | 14:21 |
| PaulMurray | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1615613 | 14:21 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1615613 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Live migration always fails when VNC/SPICE is listening at non-local, non-catch-all address" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Paulo Matias (paulo-matias) | 14:21 |
| mdbooth | The follow-on will be a simple backport. | 14:21 |
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| PaulMurray | anyone know anything about this ? | 14:21 |
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| PaulMurray | There is a revert here with one +2: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/368732/ | 14:22 |
| PaulMurray | then: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/358599/6 | 14:23 |
| PaulMurray | So reviews for those as well please | 14:23 |
| mriedem | pkoniszewski: for https://review.openstack.org/#/c/368732/ | 14:23 |
| mriedem | have you tested N->M and M->N and verified it fixes that vnc/spice console issue? | 14:24 |
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| pkoniszewski | yes, i did | 14:24 |
| mriedem | ok, great | 14:24 |
| pkoniszewski | so the problem was backward compatibility, i.e. live migrating from newton to mitaka | 14:24 |
| mriedem | btw, pkoniszewski is once again our rc week live migration savior :) | 14:24 |
| pkoniszewski | it solves the issue so let's just prepare for fixing the check in ocata | 14:24 |
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| pkoniszewski | i mean this change https://review.openstack.org/#/c/358599/ is a requirement to finally move the check in Ocata | 14:25 |
| PaulMurray | pkoniszewski, are you saying we only need the first revert in newton | 14:26 |
| pkoniszewski | the one prepared by johnthetubaguy, yes | 14:26 |
| PaulMurray | understood | 14:26 |
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| pkoniszewski | and if we can land "fill destination check data..." change in Newton, then we will be able to move the check in Ocata | 14:26 |
| pkoniszewski | and then land all Markus's changes in Ocata to fix serial console | 14:27 |
| mriedem | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/368732/ is approved now | 14:27 |
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| PaulMurray | #action review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/358599/ | 14:28 |
| PaulMurray | the next is on consoles again: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1595962 | 14:28 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1595962 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "live migration with disabled vnc/spice not possible" [Medium,In progress] - Assigned to Markus Zoeller (markus_z) (mzoeller) | 14:29 |
| pkoniszewski | this will be in a merge confllict once the revert is merged | 14:29 |
| PaulMurray | it also has a +2 from bauzas and a -1 from alaski | 14:30 |
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| PaulMurray | on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/335132/ | 14:30 |
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| alaski | with the revert that one may not be necessary | 14:30 |
| alaski | at least that was my understanding | 14:31 |
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| PaulMurray | alaski, do we need to test it to confirm again with the revert just approved | 14:31 |
| PaulMurray | or were you really asking a question | 14:32 |
| alaski | I'm hoping someone can confirm my understanding | 14:33 |
| alaski | we could also get https://review.openstack.org/#/c/338416/ which should provide some testing | 14:33 |
| PaulMurray | pkoniszewski, you were on both patches - any thoughts ? | 14:33 |
| PaulMurray | or can you try it out ? | 14:33 |
| pkoniszewski | yeah, what exactly are you asking about alaski? | 14:33 |
| pkoniszewski | and i will try it anyway | 14:33 |
| alaski | with the revert at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/368732/ is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/358599/ still necessary? | 14:34 |
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| pkoniszewski | yes, it is | 14:34 |
| pkoniszewski | so the point of this issue was that we moved the check but we never moved a code that was responsible for populating migrate data with graphic addresses | 14:34 |
| alaski | right. but the revert moves the check back | 14:35 |
| pkoniszewski | exactly | 14:35 |
| alaski | so the check should now be in a place that has the graphic addresses | 14:36 |
| pkoniszewski | we just can't move the check to check_can_live_migrate_source when older release does not populate data in check_can_live_migrate_destination | 14:36 |
| pkoniszewski | once we merge the change you just pasted here we will be able to move the check in next release | 14:37 |
| alaski | I see. so the patch from markus_z no longer fixes a bug after the revert, but it necessary to move the check in O? | 14:37 |
| pkoniszewski | because older release will populate the data earlier, in check at destination | 14:37 |
| pkoniszewski | right now Mitaka can't do that | 14:37 |
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| pkoniszewski | just fyi, RPC chain during prechecks looks like conductor-> destination compute (check_can_live_migrate_destination) -> source compute (check_can_live_migrate_source) | 14:38 |
| alaski | yeah. so the patch is needed. but not for a bug fix, but so that we can move code in O | 14:38 |
| pkoniszewski | exactly | 14:38 |
| alaski | okay. I'll let markus_z rebase and see where it's at | 14:38 |
| PaulMurray | thanks alaski | 14:39 |
| pkoniszewski | so, well, you are right, we can merge markus_z changes still in Newton, but the code needs to be on top of the revert | 14:39 |
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| PaulMurray | the next one is: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1621709 | 14:40 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1621709 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "There is no allocation record for migration action" [Medium,In progress] - Assigned to Alex Xu (xuhj) | 14:40 |
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| PaulMurray | Does anyone know what is going on with this? there is a chain of patches | 14:41 |
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| PaulMurray | is alex_xu around? | 14:42 |
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| PaulMurray | mriedem, do you know about this one ? ^^^^ | 14:44 |
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| mriedem | PaulMurray: alex_xu wants to get the bottom change into newton | 14:44 |
| mriedem | to stop leaking resources | 14:44 |
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| PaulMurray | just the bottom change | 14:44 |
| PaulMurray | this one: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/369147/4 | 14:45 |
| PaulMurray | mriedem, ^ | 14:45 |
| PaulMurray | reading the comment it looks like that is what he meant | 14:47 |
| PaulMurray | next is: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1622854 | 14:47 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1622854 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "pci: double pci migration is putting vm in ERROR" [Medium,Confirmed] | 14:47 |
| mriedem | yes that's the one he wants in newton | 14:47 |
| mriedem | he said the rest could be ocata | 14:47 |
| PaulMurray | thanks | 14:47 |
| PaulMurray | no one is working this last one | 14:47 |
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| mdbooth | Incidentally, I assume we're anticipating an rc2? i.e. There's still an opportunity to fix bugs after Thursday? | 14:49 |
| PaulMurray | mriedem, there is a comment on this last bug saying we can go without it and do a back port later | 14:49 |
| PaulMurray | mdbooth, I think that's usually the case, but only for really critical bugs | 14:49 |
| PaulMurray | ? | 14:50 |
| PaulMurray | need to ask the boss | 14:50 |
| mriedem | there is usually another rc for translations | 14:50 |
| mdbooth | PaulMurray: Does bug 1605016 come under that description? If not, I'll likely go do other stuff. | 14:50 |
| openstack | bug 1605016 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Post copy live migration interrupts network connectivity" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1605016 - Assigned to Matthew Booth (mbooth-9) | 14:50 |
| * mdbooth can't guage the chances of that patch getting in by Thursday, but I'd guess they're low, right? | 14:51 | |
| PaulMurray | mdbooth, I would hope the chances are good for anything that actually works and is considered worth the tag | 14:52 |
| PaulMurray | they get attention | 14:52 |
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| PaulMurray | mriedem, ^^ | 14:52 |
| mdbooth | dansmith didn't have the bandwidth to look when I spoke to him earlier. I didn't appreciate that might be a complete blocker. | 14:53 |
| mriedem | dan is working on the placement stuff | 14:53 |
| mriedem | i've tagged the bug | 14:53 |
| mriedem | so it's on the list | 14:53 |
| mriedem | and it's in the etherpad | 14:53 |
| mriedem | it's not a trivial change though, i haven't reviewed yet | 14:54 |
| mriedem | and if it's not required for post-copy to work, then it might slide | 14:54 |
| mdbooth | mriedem: So, the critical bit is just the rpc change, because the follow-on will be backportable | 14:54 |
| dansmith | it's way too disruptive for this point in the cycle, IMHO.. post-copy is still optional yes? | 14:54 |
| mriedem | if the rpc change is a noop it migth be ok | 14:54 |
| mdbooth | mriedem: And it's not required for post-copy | 14:54 |
| mriedem | if the rpc change is a mistake though and we find that out later, we can't revert it | 14:54 |
| mdbooth | dansmith: Yup, this don't break post-copy. | 14:55 |
| mdbooth | It just makes it sub-optimal when using dvr | 14:55 |
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| dansmith | mdbooth: so only when using post-copy and dvr right? | 14:55 |
| mdbooth | And post-copy is also disabled by default iirc? | 14:55 |
| mdbooth | dansmith: Yup | 14:55 |
| davidgiluk | mdbooth: IMHO it's much worse than suboptimal | 14:55 |
| pkoniszewski | it is disabled by default | 14:55 |
| dansmith | right, so.. I would not make this change before the release, IMHO | 14:56 |
| mdbooth | dansmith: Cool, thanks. | 14:56 |
| * mdbooth will still work on it, just no longer top priority | 14:56 | |
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| PaulMurray | so are we dropping the newton-rc-potntial tag for that ? | 14:56 |
| mdbooth | Sounds like it | 14:56 |
| davidgiluk | :-( | 14:57 |
| PaulMurray | ok | 14:57 |
| dansmith | yeah, drop IMHO | 14:57 |
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| PaulMurray | we're out of time | 14:57 |
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| PaulMurray | finished just before the bell | 14:57 |
| PaulMurray | thanks for coming | 14:57 |
| abhishekk | hi, I have a backport patch for stable/mitaka, https://review.openstack.org/#/c/353851, please review the same and give your suggestions when you get some time, thank you | 14:57 |
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| PaulMurray | thanks abhishekk - sorry no time for discussion | 14:58 |
| PaulMurray | in the the open section | 14:58 |
| PaulMurray | bye | 14:58 |
| PaulMurray | #endmeeting | 14:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Sep 13 14:58:19 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-09-13-14.00.html | 14:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-09-13-14.00.txt | 14:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_live_migration/2016/nova_live_migration.2016-09-13-14.00.log.html | 14:58 |
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| * gothicmindfood waits 60 seconds to pounce | 14:59 | |
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| gothicmindfood | courtesy ping time | 15:00 |
| jroll | \o | 15:00 |
| ttx | o/ | 15:00 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith, dhellmann, gothicmindfood, ttx, jroll, johnthetubaguy, sdague, mordred, carolbarrett, nikhil, mugsie, thingie | 15:00 |
| gothicmindfood | hi everyone! | 15:00 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 15:00 |
| gothicmindfood | #startmeeting swg | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Sep 13 15:00:46 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gothicmindfood. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| nikhil | o/ | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'swg' | 15:00 |
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| gothicmindfood | nice to see folks, even though we're headed into end of release mode | 15:01 |
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| gothicmindfood | amrith: and dhellmann and ttx are lurking but otherwise engaged so I'll be the chair today | 15:01 |
| gothicmindfood | #agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting | 15:01 |
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| gothicmindfood | our agenda is pretty sparse, but actually quite full | 15:01 |
| gothicmindfood | (potentially) | 15:02 |
| gothicmindfood | especially since we're rolling up to Barcelona soon together | 15:02 |
| gothicmindfood | so let's go | 15:02 |
| gothicmindfood | #topic Review Action items from last week | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review Action items from last week (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:02 | |
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| gothicmindfood | first one is our Barcelona vision | 15:02 |
| * gothicmindfood added a bit there | 15:03 | |
| alexismonville | hello :) | 15:03 |
| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: hi! | 15:03 |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BarcelonaSWGMagic | 15:03 |
| gothicmindfood | so I'd love for us to go through this vision one last time together | 15:03 |
| Carolbarrett | OK | 15:04 |
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| gothicmindfood | I added a few things: 1) a nice intro, 2) a note about us getting together informally with anyone who's interested for food to talk/have a meeting outside of the panel discussion | 15:04 |
| * mugsie is following from mobile | 15:04 | |
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| gothicmindfood | 3) a little clarification/definition of working group below nikhil 's comments that were actually a little bit about me understanding what it is we, um, do | 15:05 |
| * gothicmindfood admits she'd never looked at the actual deifnition of a working group before | 15:05 | |
| ttx | there is no definition. It's just a bunch of people | 15:05 |
| gothicmindfood | is anyone opposed to us having a get together post-panel-discussion at some point in Barcelona? | 15:05 |
| ttx | nobody blesses "working groups"' | 15:06 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: I mean, the webster's dictionary definition. Which says "research and recommendations" which I actually think just reminded me that we're on the right track :) | 15:06 |
| ttx | ah ok | 15:06 |
| jroll | gothicmindfood: I like get-togethers, and I like these folks. no opposition here :P | 15:06 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: as in, what does a working-group produce? | 15:06 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, +1 a get-together | 15:06 |
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| gothicmindfood | answer: research + recommendations | 15:06 |
| ttx | +1 | 15:07 |
| gothicmindfood | cool - so my thinking about getting together is that it'd be nice to rope in folks who are interested from the panel discussion to a thing where we can dive more deeply and start talking about our SWG vision as well as the recommendation for visioning to the TC | 15:07 |
| gothicmindfood | so it'd have to be after our panel discussion. | 15:07 |
| gothicmindfood | #action gothicmindfood to come up with proposed times for swg meetup in Barcelona | 15:07 |
| johnthetubaguy | honestly more time for all of us folks on the IRC meeting to chat face to face, to help make progress sounds good | 15:08 |
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| jroll | gothicmindfood: are you thinking grab a room at summit or something after-hours? | 15:08 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: agreed! And I don't want to take up precious design summit time, so if anyone has recommendations on how to get around that hurdle, lmk | 15:08 |
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| gothicmindfood | jroll: I'm definitely open to ideas | 15:09 |
| jroll | gothicmindfood: I have a feeling the latter would be easier to schedule | 15:09 |
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| gothicmindfood | jroll: so maybe something after the last design summit session of the day on like... wednesday or thursday? | 15:09 |
| jroll | it'll be tough to align everyone's schedules, summits get crazy busy and this one is only 4 days | 15:09 |
| jroll | sure? | 15:09 |
| gothicmindfood | anyone else have thoughts on timing for a meetup to discuss swg work? | 15:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | do we want a cross project design summit session on swg? i.e. put it on the schedule | 15:10 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: that's one way of doing it | 15:10 |
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| jroll | yeah, that'd be an alternative | 15:10 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: if there's space I would love to do that | 15:10 |
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| alexismonville | it will help advertise the wg to more people | 15:11 |
| ttx | There is space. The question is more, how to schedule it in a way that will make people attend it | 15:11 |
| johnthetubaguy | for me it seem critical and should get a spot, but thats just me | 15:11 |
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| johnthetubaguy | right, great question | 15:11 |
| Carolbarrett | +1 on get together | 15:11 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: I think scheduling it after our panel is crucial, so attendees to that can come if they're interested in the panel content | 15:11 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: when is our panel ? | 15:11 |
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| gothicmindfood | ttx: wednesday late afternoon | 15:12 |
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| gothicmindfood | ttx: are there cross project things thursday AM? | 15:12 |
| ttx | ok, so too late for cross-project workshop material | 15:12 |
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| Carolbarrett | Johnthetubaguy: That's not a bad idea. It will help create more awareness of the session too | 15:12 |
| ttx | no, its Tuesday afternoon and Wed morning | 15:12 |
| gothicmindfood | bummer. | 15:12 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so the problem with wednesday, is many of the devs are likley to be in design summit things anyways | 15:13 |
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| jroll | right | 15:13 |
| mugsie | is therr any company rooms that variius sponsers are renting availible? | 15:13 |
| * gothicmindfood wonders if it's valuable enough as a cross project issue that we should go ahead and do it before the panel session | 15:13 | |
| johnthetubaguy | having both seems like a good plan to me | 15:13 |
| jroll | and for devs tech will take precedence over SWG | 15:13 |
| jroll | in most cases, anyway | 15:13 |
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| Carolbarrett | jroll +1 | 15:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | so to me, its almost our biggest cross project issue right now | 15:13 |
| gothicmindfood | jroll: given that preference, does it make sense for us to try to get the panel switched around to something more accessible for devs? | 15:14 |
| jroll | especially the leader-y devs, PTLs, etc | 15:14 |
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| jroll | gothicmindfood: I think so, but idk how heroic and effort like that would be | 15:14 |
| jroll | s/and/an | 15:14 |
| gothicmindfood | jroll: or should we consider a cross project session as supplementary and identical to the panel in terms of purpose, just at a time more accessible to more of them? | 15:14 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: it already kinda is at a spot where some people should be able to attend it | 15:14 |
| ttx | vs. nobody :) | 15:14 |
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| ttx | i.e. we avoid teh cross-project slots | 15:15 |
| jroll | gothicmindfood: I'd rather continue the conversation than repeat it | 15:15 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: yeah, I figured later in the day there was better anyhow | 15:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: thats a good point | 15:15 |
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| ttx | and it's in the part of the DS that doesn't have too many things scheduled in parallel | 15:15 |
| jroll | ttx: I just worry PTLs, PTLs-to-be, cores, will be stuck in their projects' sessions | 15:15 |
| jroll | ah | 15:15 |
| ttx | so the scheduling already is kinda optimal | 15:15 |
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| johnthetubaguy | yeah, you *could* have a gap | 15:16 |
| ttx | as far as there can be an optimum during a 4-day summit week | 15:16 |
| jroll | is there any contributor meetup rooms left? | 15:16 |
| gothicmindfood | so if we're looking at an extra session's purpose to be for us organizing our future work with interested parties attending - I think after our session is probably better | 15:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | right, its all on top of each other | 15:16 |
| jroll | friday afternoon might be good | 15:16 |
| ttx | jroll: ah, ah. No. | 15:16 |
| nikhil | Friday afternoon long lunch seems to be the most comfy spot | 15:16 |
| ttx | jroll: there is a room full of rountables though | 15:16 |
| jroll | daw :( | 15:16 |
| jroll | ah ok | 15:16 |
| jroll | that might work best? | 15:16 |
| gothicmindfood | so - Friday afternoon sound good? | 15:16 |
| ttx | so we can definitely use that at the end of Friday | 15:16 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: I think that's a minimum | 15:17 |
| gothicmindfood | hopefully we will resist Spanish siesta for one more day to attend :) | 15:17 |
| gothicmindfood | ok, sounds good | 15:17 |
| jroll | it'll be nice to dive into non-technical things after doing tech stuff all week, too | 15:17 |
| alexismonville | great! | 15:17 |
| gothicmindfood | any other comments on the current vision - Nikhil, I'd love to talk more in person about your 'platform' ideas - but maybe they're not for a vision for the summit, and instead for consideration for a vision for the group? | 15:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | cool, so we go for that, rather than cross project session, or as well as? | 15:18 |
| nikhil | Yeah sure, we can wait | 15:18 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: I think the panel + Friday work meetup is great, but I'm happy to do a cross project talk, too if we think it's necessary. | 15:18 |
| nikhil | I'm going to stand by until after summit | 15:18 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: my only question is will we be repeating ourselves at the panel discussion to the same people who were at the cross project talk? | 15:19 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: ok sounds good :) | 15:19 |
| johnthetubaguy | I was thinking a session to talk through specifics more interactively, design summitey | 15:20 |
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| johnthetubaguy | not really focused outside the group | 15:20 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: I think we're hoping to turn the panel into that, tbh | 15:20 |
| gothicmindfood | :) | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | for focused on the group | 15:20 |
| gothicmindfood | panel/chaos/whatever | 15:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | fair enough | 15:20 |
| ttx | More generally speaking, I was a bit surprised at the general negative reactions to some of the initiatives we pushed (like goals or principles), so I think we need to make smaller steps | 15:20 |
| ttx | Admittedly the timing is not optimal due to recent events and change already under way | 15:21 |
| nikhil | ttx: that seemed coming to me at least | 15:21 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: I think consulting bottom line change process for wisdom on some of this stuff might not be a terrible idea | 15:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I was thinking an open debate session in the design summit would help give people space to talk about all those things? | 15:21 |
| gothicmindfood | anyhow - I think we all sound good on the Barcelona vision, right? | 15:21 |
| ttx | but still, people are being extra sensitive and careful those days so we need to apply extra care | 15:21 |
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| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: that's a good point | 15:21 |
| nikhil | ttx: for smaller projects, it's already a challenge to accommodate priorities let alone more work imposed widely | 15:21 |
| alexismonville | tbh we have the same kind of problem internally with teams, some people value a lot the independence of individuals | 15:22 |
| alexismonville | and don't want to be forced on choices | 15:22 |
| nikhil | I've some ideas to push such things through but they are not trivial | 15:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | so its not meant to be imposed, its meant to be work we all agree is the most important thing for OpenStack, its just we only just trying this out, so it probably feels more imposed | 15:22 |
| ttx | nikhil: but smaller projects could see it positively, as an opportunity to grow their base, rather than negatively/defensively (how are we supposed to do that) | 15:22 |
| nikhil | ttx: well at least for projects I know growing base is a big challenge | 15:23 |
| gothicmindfood | to narrow this back to our Barcelona vision (since that's our topic) - do we want to kind of have a more design-summit-focused event for folks to come talk about this work at? | 15:23 |
| ttx | Major difference here compared to a classic environment is that your resources are not finite | 15:23 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: true, its a great opportunity to get folks involved | 15:23 |
| jroll | ttx: I feel like the principles thing isn't folks being opposed to writing them down, but rather it seems folks have been operating under different principles and want *those* reflected | 15:23 |
| nikhil | With more and more devs going for containers | 15:23 |
| ttx | Your resources depend a lot on how open/friendly/inspiring working within your project is | 15:23 |
| jroll | ++ | 15:24 |
| alexismonville | agreed | 15:24 |
| nikhil | I sincerely disagree | 15:24 |
| * gothicmindfood attempts to lasso the group back to earth | 15:24 | |
| nikhil | I've tried many such friendly practices over the years | 15:24 |
| alexismonville | so e design like session could be useful | 15:24 |
| nikhil | Anyway.. | 15:24 |
| gothicmindfood | (I don't mind this discussion, I'd just like to punt it to the end of the meeting instead, so we can get through our things | 15:24 |
| gothicmindfood | ) | 15:24 |
| jroll | gothicmindfood: +1 | 15:24 |
| * ttx stops going on a tangent | 15:24 | |
| * alexismonville stops to listen to gothicmindfood :) | 15:25 | |
| gothicmindfood | re: some of these things, though, to focus back on Barcelona - do we want a space at the summit as part of a cross project session so people can discuss recent governance proposals there in addition to discussing them at our panel? | 15:25 |
| gothicmindfood | simple +/- 1s welcome | 15:25 |
| * nikhil happy to find more content to write on project docs | 15:25 | |
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| gothicmindfood | I'm +1 if enough TC folks think it warrants cross project space, I just don't want to take away time from other things on their docket there | 15:26 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: dyou think we should bring it up at the TC meeting today? | 15:26 |
| alexismonville | +1 | 15:27 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: I'll bring it up in CPW discussions | 15:27 |
| ttx | (which will start a bit today) | 15:27 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: sounds good. | 15:27 |
| gothicmindfood | #action ttx to find out about CPW session for SWG | 15:28 |
| gothicmindfood | (so many acronyms, so little time) | 15:28 |
| gothicmindfood | ok | 15:28 |
| gothicmindfood | I'm closing out vision discussion until next meeting, where I expect we will continue to tweak small things | 15:28 |
| gothicmindfood | #topic Take a pass through the 'short list' and update items as required | 15:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Take a pass through the 'short list' and update items as required (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:28 | |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/swg-short-list-deliverables | 15:29 |
| gothicmindfood | our nice endless list | 15:29 |
| gothicmindfood | so | 15:29 |
| gothicmindfood | principles and goals were our first two out the gate there | 15:29 |
| gothicmindfood | and as ttx mentioned there has been not an insignificant amount of negative reaction to introducing those | 15:30 |
| ttx | yes, with mitigated success so far :) | 15:30 |
| ttx | I'll push a new version of the principles, probably tomorrow | 15:30 |
| ttx | goals are getting simplifgied for Ocata | 15:30 |
| ttx | -g | 15:30 |
| gothicmindfood | cool | 15:30 |
| ttx | i.e. let's start small with something everybody is happy with | 15:30 |
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| ttx | and maybe people will realize there is more to gain than to lose here | 15:31 |
| gothicmindfood | so I would like to point out we have a more informal change process that is very similar to what bottom line change spelled out for us - in terms of gathering opinions on change from diverse groups of people and gathering feedback before publishing | 15:31 |
| ttx | (fwiw in my goals vision, people who work cross-project on a goal want to gather again to work on another goal the next time) | 15:31 |
| jroll | I really wonder if these aren't the principles most people have been working under, and that's the opposition? or if people want to change the principles at the same time? or something else | 15:31 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: ++ | 15:31 |
| jroll | probably all of the above | 15:31 |
| gothicmindfood | jroll: I have been fascinated by the discussion on the ML and in the comments on the review | 15:32 |
| gothicmindfood | which, probs a link would help here: | 15:32 |
| ttx | jroll: yes, a mix. Some people don't like the idea that we define anything. Some people object to the words we choose | 15:32 |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/357260/ | 15:32 |
| ttx | Some people don't like the idea of defining the status quo | 15:32 |
| jroll | gothicmindfood: ditto, though I'm not sure how I can help other than echoing monty/doug/ttx | 15:32 |
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| gothicmindfood | ttx: or some people are upset at the process by which the ideas are getting defined, though don't seem to have a different suggestion about how to get them out there | 15:33 |
| ttx | yes. But then that doesn't reduce the value of the exercise | 15:33 |
| ttx | Those problems were existing already, the discussion just put the dead fish on the table | 15:33 |
| gothicmindfood | it seems that whenever you start to vocalize/communicate the things you thought were shared understanding, conflict is bound to happen. | 15:33 |
| alexismonville | yes, and that's a way to move away from the status quo, to make the details visible | 15:34 |
| gothicmindfood | (that is, interestingly, one of the core ideas around good project management practice - you get all those assumptions on the table) | 15:34 |
| ttx | Great culture systems gap | 15:34 |
| jroll | TC is discussing these later today, yeah? | 15:34 |
| nikhil | Yea the problem is that principles are being considered as source of truth and not reference docs | 15:34 |
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| gothicmindfood | well - now we have the reference, so we can. :) | 15:35 |
| ttx | jroll: not really, I'll mention it, but I think we can work on a wording that will make most people happy. Or not | 15:35 |
| jroll | ah, ok | 15:35 |
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| gothicmindfood | I had this thought about this list today after re-reading our Barcelona vision a few times | 15:35 |
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| * gothicmindfood added the passport idea at the end of the list of things | 15:36 | |
| gothicmindfood | but - if we can look at our Barcelona vision as a warm up for an swg vision | 15:36 |
| gothicmindfood | and an swg vision as a warm-up/recommendation to the TC for their own vision | 15:36 |
| alexismonville | that's an excellent path forward | 15:37 |
| gothicmindfood | I think we'll actually have hit a lot of our targets within the first 6 months of our existence | 15:37 |
| nikhil | My 2 cents: we are trying to do too much too soon | 15:37 |
| gothicmindfood | anyone have thoughts on that? are there other things we're not hitting/covering that we need to to help out the TC right now? | 15:37 |
| nikhil | And that is problem for people | 15:38 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: ah, interesting - that was my next question - about hitting/covering too much | 15:38 |
| nikhil | A group like this we need to be focused long term more than cycle pretty cycle | 15:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | My take was people were not feeling included in the conversations yet | 15:38 |
| nikhil | Because culture takes time | 15:39 |
| ttx | I agree we are probably moving too fast rather than too slow | 15:39 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: I do think that a vision will help us there, more long term | 15:39 |
| nikhil | The main reason for system culture hap | 15:39 |
| nikhil | Gap | 15:39 |
| * johnthetubaguy sakes fist at Internet and electric contractors | 15:39 | |
| alexismonville | include people in the conversation could be a first goal | 15:39 |
| jroll | well, we have the culture, we aren't trying to create that | 15:39 |
| gothicmindfood | jroll: but we are trying to change it a little | 15:39 |
| nikhil | Yeah | 15:39 |
| gothicmindfood | jroll: even just by defining it in ways that people are uncomfortable with | 15:40 |
| ttx | we have to change one thing at a time :) | 15:40 |
| jroll | hm, I guess so yeah | 15:40 |
| nikhil | We are trying to make it official | 15:40 |
| nikhil | +1 ttx | 15:40 |
| johnthetubaguy | Right, so that's true, +1 ttx | 15:40 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: do you think our list of things-to-do needs pruning or re-orging, maybe? | 15:41 |
| nikhil | I think we need to focus on vision for this summit and then follow up on just that | 15:41 |
| jroll | what do we have in flight right now? goals, principles, I feel like I'm missing a third | 15:41 |
| * jroll needs coffee | 15:41 | |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: on the SWG's vision, the vision for barcelona, or the TC vision? | 15:41 |
| nikhil | My feeling is that they are all inter related | 15:42 |
| gothicmindfood | jroll: in flight currently is goals, principles, the barcelona vision for swg which feeds into the swg vision overall (which we'll hopefully get started on in Barcelona) | 15:42 |
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| nikhil | So we need to simplify and say what is exactly or starting point | 15:42 |
| alexismonville | I wonder what the TC member could answer if they were asked what they will change if they had a magic wand (or one wish)? | 15:42 |
| gothicmindfood | my understanding from the last swg meeting was that we were dropping consensus for now? | 15:42 |
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| jroll | gothicmindfood: right, so just goals and principles, from the rest of the community's POV | 15:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | Or openstack vision | 15:43 |
| jroll | so are both of those really too much too soon? (especially when we know a thing like principles is going to take months) | 15:43 |
| gothicmindfood | well, my concern around some of the reviews for the principles is that without a vision, the TC is a bit hamstrung defending principles | 15:43 |
| jroll | fair | 15:44 |
| gothicmindfood | some people are trying to have product/project guidance discussion in the principles review | 15:44 |
| gothicmindfood | and that's not really what anyone was trying to get at there | 15:44 |
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| gothicmindfood | but I understand why - it's because they don't exist anywhere | 15:44 |
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| jroll | yeah, words are hard | 15:44 |
| ttx_ | just dropped out for last 4 min | 15:44 |
| gothicmindfood | and if the principles state that 'one openstack' is based on the singular vision for openstack that has yet to be written... | 15:45 |
| gothicmindfood | the snake is eating its tail | 15:45 |
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| johnthetubaguy | That's a good point, I think | 15:45 |
| jroll | ttx: here's what you missed https://gist.github.com/jimrollenhagen/c9e17ecf0ed08633db8dda359a384a78 | 15:45 |
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| ttx | Also just difficult to use words like "project" | 15:46 |
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| ttx | which mean so many different things$ | 15:46 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: we're talking about reining in goals and activity to try to do one thing at a time, per your observation :) | 15:46 |
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| johnthetubaguy | Yes, it seems so | 15:46 |
| gothicmindfood | right - and there will be bikeshedding there | 15:46 |
| nikhil | I think goals is a bit too much to ask for ocata | 15:46 |
| gothicmindfood | but my question is - does it hurt the principles discussion and consensus building if there is no TC vision? | 15:46 |
| nikhil | I agree with johnthetubaguy that we need to do some outreach about what swg is trying to do | 15:46 |
| ttx | I think we should prioritize socializing the SWG goals and tooling | 15:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | So talking in person at the summit should help speed up bike shedding | 15:47 |
| nikhil | ttx: +1 | 15:47 |
| ttx | rather than rush to use it | 15:47 |
| ttx | I think the panel is in line with that | 15:47 |
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| gothicmindfood | ttx: ok | 15:47 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: aside from Barcelona is there anything else we can/should do? | 15:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | Ah, so making clear the plan for the plan, that makes good sense | 15:47 |
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| ttx | not really... | 15:47 |
| * gothicmindfood wonders about having scheduled themed discussion in the swg IRC channel | 15:48 | |
| gothicmindfood | re: different topics | 15:48 |
| ttx | I think we have a silent majority issue too | 15:48 |
| gothicmindfood | and inviting folks to poke their heads in to talk | 15:48 |
| gothicmindfood | on the ML | 15:48 |
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| ttx | i.e. it's easy to get lost in the vocal opposition, when as jroll said, if you agree the only thing you can do is repeating things that have already been said | 15:48 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: agreed on the silent majority | 15:48 |
| ttx | so reelection of (some) TC seats will also help | 15:49 |
| ttx | giving legitimacy to people | 15:49 |
| nikhil | huh | 15:49 |
| alexismonville | that could be one of the goal, to give a voice to the silent majority | 15:49 |
| ttx | reelection is not the right term. Renewal ? | 15:49 |
| nikhil | yeah, this won't be trivial | 15:49 |
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| gothicmindfood | no one ever said culture change was easy :) | 15:50 |
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| gothicmindfood | okay - any other documents up for review right now that we want to cover? | 15:50 |
| alexismonville | I feel that stating the problem is a first step to help people aware of the need for a change | 15:50 |
| nikhil | ttx: I was confused, guessing you mean majority of the TC getting relected? | 15:50 |
| gothicmindfood | #topic Discuss any documents that are available for review | 15:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discuss any documents that are available for review (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:50 | |
| ttx | nikhil: no, my point is that whatever the outcome of the elction, whoever gets elected will have some legitimacy | 15:51 |
| nikhil | ttx: ack | 15:51 |
| * gothicmindfood doesn't think there's anything besides what we've already posted, review-wise | 15:51 | |
| ttx | that can only help in squashing the vocal minority (if it indeed is a vocal minority :) | 15:51 |
| gothicmindfood | but wanted to check with everyone | 15:51 |
| gothicmindfood | yep - voting matters. | 15:51 |
| nikhil | ttx: if the group in consideration is TC+PTLs+other-non-elected-leaders, then I think we really do have silent majority. | 15:52 |
| nikhil | gothicmindfood: I think a few PTLs are not even aware of this group and what we are trying to do | 15:52 |
| gothicmindfood | and a lot of our work is, per alexismonville making some of that silence actually vocal | 15:53 |
| nikhil | and we can add those who are to-be ptls | 15:53 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: yeah, but we're also pretty young yet | 15:53 |
| gothicmindfood | we haven't even had a summit to be present at yet! | 15:53 |
| gothicmindfood | :) | 15:53 |
| gothicmindfood | so - no other documents | 15:53 |
| nikhil | one of the reasons why pushing goals won't help until they are on board and understand things enough to educate the project cores and other devs | 15:53 |
| gothicmindfood | (I guess?) | 15:53 |
| ttx | also we need to double-down on the group openness, because I can see people scream secret kabbale soon | 15:53 |
| gothicmindfood | #topic Open Discussion | 15:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: swg)" | 15:53 | |
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| gothicmindfood | ttx: absolutely | 15:54 |
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| gothicmindfood | ttx: I think I just need to write more to the mailing list | 15:54 |
| ttx | so 1/ it's not secret, and 2/ it's not a kabbale, join us | 15:54 |
| jroll | ++ | 15:54 |
| gothicmindfood | (and we all should) | 15:54 |
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| ttx | If you're interested in those kind of issues, of course. As I said elsewhere, it's perfectly fine to focus on the drawing rather than the frame | 15:54 |
| alexismonville | so we want to send a message on the mailing list to share the action of this meeting? | 15:55 |
| * nikhil likes the asserted direction | 15:55 | |
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| gothicmindfood | I also think I would like to make a point of socializing with lots of various people who weren't in the Ann Arbor training and trying to get them to come to Barcelona session/participate | 15:55 |
| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: good question - do summaries of meeting notes for the ML? | 15:55 |
| ttx | (working "in" vs. working "on") -- been reading too much lately :) | 15:55 |
| alexismonville | gothicmindfood: yes | 15:55 |
| nikhil | if we can find liaisons to represent at the project contri meetup, that will help | 15:55 |
| jroll | nikhil: liaisons for... projects? or something else? | 15:56 |
| nikhil | jroll: liaisons for SWG to individual projects | 15:56 |
| jroll | ah | 15:56 |
| nikhil | rather SWG-liaison | 15:57 |
| nikhil | (wasn't sure about the prepositions there) | 15:57 |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: I feel like we should probably do more informal reaching out first | 15:57 |
| gothicmindfood | and then maybe make ourselves available for that, if it comes up? | 15:57 |
| jroll | yeah, I think we get people involved and it will spread naturally | 15:57 |
| nikhil | gothicmindfood: totally, I'm just saying | 15:57 |
| * gothicmindfood thinks we need to make sure that they *want* us there first | 15:57 | |
| gothicmindfood | nikhil: yeah, it's a great idea! | 15:57 |
| nikhil | since we won't have mid-cycles | 15:57 |
| gothicmindfood | I think as we mature that will likely happen | 15:57 |
| nikhil | if we can get a few then it will help otherwise organically it is very likely | 15:58 |
| * gothicmindfood wishes she had a huge budget to send everyone to training :) | 15:58 | |
| gothicmindfood | (but I'll be working on that in Barcelona) | 15:58 |
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| gothicmindfood | ok - two minutes left | 15:58 |
| *** vishwana_ is now known as vishwanathj | 15:58 | |
| gothicmindfood | anything else for this meeting? | 15:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | Did we agree the summit attack plan now, I keep dropping | 15:59 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: I believe ttx is going to see if we can get a CPW | 15:59 |
| gothicmindfood | so we'll know about that soon enough | 15:59 |
| gothicmindfood | and I'd love a friday afternoon session as well, so I'll check on that | 15:59 |
| *** ddieterly[away] is now known as ddieterly | 15:59 | |
| johnthetubaguy | Both sounds good | 16:00 |
| ttx | That is easy to have. The trick is to make it well-known | 16:00 |
| ttx | I can give you the room number | 16:00 |
| gothicmindfood | ok - everyone over to the swg channel at this point for further planning | 16:00 |
| gothicmindfood | thanks for attending! | 16:00 |
| jroll | thanks gothicmindfood :) | 16:00 |
| ttx | if you want to pre-announce "we'll meet in X at Y" | 16:00 |
| gothicmindfood | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Sep 13 16:00:33 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swg/2016/swg.2016-09-13-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swg/2016/swg.2016-09-13-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/swg/2016/swg.2016-09-13-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
| alexismonville | thanks everyone :) | 16:01 |
| alexismonville | I forgot to add an ACTION to gothicmindfood for sending the summary of the meeting :) | 16:01 |
| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: ha! I will definitely do that by end of day today | 16:01 |
| gothicmindfood | :) | 16:01 |
| alexismonville | gothicmindfood: that's great! | 16:01 |
| alexismonville | thank you for the energy you put into this group | 16:02 |
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| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: yvw | 16:03 |
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