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| * fungi yawns | 14:00 | |
| EmilienM | hello | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| gothicmindfood | ohhai | 14:00 |
| * gothicmindfood got back from her errands in time | 14:00 | |
| ttx | alright | 14:01 |
| gothicmindfood | #startmeeting openstack-swg | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Jan 5 14:01:25 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gothicmindfood. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_swg' | 14:01 |
| EmilienM | o/ | 14:01 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith, dhellmann, gothicmindfood, ttx, jroll, johnthetubaguy, sdague, mordred, carolbarrett, nikhil, mugsie, thingee, alexismonville, edleafe, EmilienM, harlowja, devananda, bastafidli | 14:01 |
| gothicmindfood | those are our courtesy pings | 14:01 |
| jroll | \o | 14:01 |
| johnthetubaguy | o/ | 14:02 |
| alexismonville | o/ | 14:02 |
| gothicmindfood | my sincere apologies for not updating the agenda, folks | 14:02 |
| alexismonville | happy new year :) | 14:02 |
| gothicmindfood | It's been a rather long month for me here | 14:02 |
| gothicmindfood | happy new year and post-holidays to you all | 14:02 |
| gothicmindfood | I do think we probably know a bit about what we need to talk about based on our last meeting | 14:02 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy posted https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/AtlantaPTG-SWG-TCVision | 14:03 |
| gothicmindfood | yup | 14:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, sorry that took a month, but moving it out of gerrit, so we can start work on it | 14:03 |
| ttx | I started to list on that etherpad what the TC actually does, and which we should probably cover in the vision somehow | 14:03 |
| gothicmindfood | and I have some news on the Atlanta visioning ront as well | 14:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | tried to collect some questions from the last meeting too | 14:03 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: liking that list, thanks | 14:04 |
| ttx | I like to put things into categories :) | 14:04 |
| gothicmindfood | what do you all say that I start with a couple announcements, and then we move on to talking through our overarching vision for the PTG (as the SWG) and then dig into the beginnings of the TC vision etherpad? | 14:04 |
| gothicmindfood | does that sound like a decent plan for the hour? | 14:04 |
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| fungi | wfm | 14:05 |
| EmilienM | ++ | 14:05 |
| gothicmindfood | sweet. | 14:05 |
| jroll | ++ | 14:05 |
| gothicmindfood | Okay - so on the training/PTG front | 14:05 |
| gothicmindfood | I had a great convo with Timo over at ZingTrain about the week of April 10th being targeted for leadership training | 14:05 |
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| gothicmindfood | which is awesome | 14:05 |
| EmilienM | gothicmindfood: maybe use #topic so we have a nice summary at the end | 14:06 |
| gothicmindfood | EmilienM: ah, cool | 14:06 |
| gothicmindfood | I do when we have an agenda, just failed this time at that :) | 14:06 |
| gothicmindfood | #topic Leadership training & PTG announcements | 14:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Leadership training & PTG announcements (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 14:06 | |
| * edleafe shuffles in late | 14:06 | |
| gothicmindfood | so - April 10th is the week we're targeting for training | 14:07 |
| gothicmindfood | it'll be 3 days again - 2 days facilitated and 1 day of after-training discussion hosted for attendees | 14:07 |
| alexismonville | great! | 14:07 |
| gothicmindfood | I'm still working on getting the full list of invitees together, but ostensibly it'll be any TC members who haven't done it, plus ttx, plus some user committee and hopefully board folks plus anyone else who is interested | 14:08 |
| gothicmindfood | I got a quote for 20 people to attend again | 14:08 |
| gothicmindfood | and also managed to get a quote combined with that for a 1 day vision facilitation at the Atlanta PTG | 14:08 |
| gothicmindfood | which ZingTrain is very interested in helpig us out on | 14:08 |
| gothicmindfood | from their perspective: having an outsider facilitate a vision is pretty important, and also having folks who've done large scale visions before might help us in areas where we falter, especially w/r/t keeping on task | 14:09 |
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| gothicmindfood | so I wanted to check in with this group before going to the TC about it - how would we feel about taking one day of the PTG for vision facilitation there? | 14:09 |
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| ttx | We'll have a one-day SWG room there | 14:10 |
| ttx | so that fits the agenda | 14:10 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess there are quite a few TC folks who will be at other horizontal stuff than the SWG, but its probably the best shot we have | 14:11 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: kinda. I'm worried about making this vision our whole agenda, especially when so many others in the community seemed to want to learn skills/various things about what we're up to | 14:11 |
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| EmilienM | do we know which day ? (during horizontal sessions) | 14:11 |
| ttx | just creates a bit of constraints as I have a pretty busy Monday/Tuesday | 14:11 |
| gothicmindfood | we would choose the day for the vision stuff | 14:11 |
| gothicmindfood | it could be any day | 14:11 |
| ttx | EmilienM: Monday or Tuesday, undecided yet. Architecture WG is supposed to take the other day | 14:12 |
| EmilienM | ttx: cool | 14:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: ah, that makes sense | 14:12 |
| ttx | By default I'd say Monday for SWG | 14:12 |
| ttx | since ArchWG is likely to attract more people | 14:12 |
| fungi | yeah, monday/tuesday i'll be running infra stuff all day | 14:12 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 14:12 |
| ttx | (people who might want to travel on Monday) | 14:12 |
| ttx | could also be a one-day thing on Friday | 14:12 |
| gothicmindfood | I was wondering about Friday | 14:12 |
| ttx | out of the SWG room | 14:12 |
| gothicmindfood | or Thursday | 14:12 |
| ttx | in some corner of the venue | 14:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | I can't do friday, but that might give you a bigger number of folks | 14:13 |
| gothicmindfood | I know people will be pretty exhausted | 14:13 |
| * fungi expects to start the week exhausted | 14:13 | |
| EmilienM | I'm not sure we can satifsfy everyone. Thursday is vertical sessions, some folks will also be busy | 14:13 |
| ttx | Thursday I'll likely be stuck releasing the thing known as OpenStack | 14:13 |
| ttx | same for dhellmann | 14:13 |
| gothicmindfood | yeah | 14:13 |
| johnthetubaguy | EmilienM: +1 right, people are going to be busy on every day at this point | 14:13 |
| EmilienM | ttx: during PTG? | 14:13 |
| fungi | oh, right, i forgot thursday at the ptg is release day ;) | 14:13 |
| gothicmindfood | So - the biggest thing I'm concerned about is 100% TC attendance | 14:14 |
| ttx | EmilienM: we like difficulty | 14:14 |
| gothicmindfood | at least at pieces of the day-long session | 14:14 |
| EmilienM | (out of topic but releasing OpenStack during PTG is not the best idea ever) | 14:14 |
| jroll | I seem to remember TC folks thoguht they'd be too tired for a board meeting, I can't imagine they wouldn't be too tired for a full day visioning session | 14:14 |
| gothicmindfood | so that everyone gets a chance to participate | 14:14 |
| fungi | actually, being able to get all the release team in a room together physically on release day sounds pretty helpful</offtopic> | 14:14 |
| jroll | (but don't remember the final decision on that board meeting thing) | 14:14 |
| ttx | EmilienM: when we discussed it at past Summits it sounded like a good idea | 14:14 |
| ttx | (fwiw we won't do that for the second PTG) | 14:15 |
| EmilienM | cool then :-) good luck! | 14:15 |
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| ttx | we prefer the PTG week to the week just before or after | 14:15 |
| alexismonville | I will not be at the PTG (personal reason) but I would like to say that I would start with the visioning when people are fresh | 14:15 |
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| gothicmindfood | so it sounds like Monday or Friday are the best options for a potential day long visioning session | 14:15 |
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| gothicmindfood | and I lean towards Monday | 14:15 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, I had it in my head we do the release the week after the ptg, duno why | 14:15 |
| ttx | the week after ptg I'll be sleeping | 14:16 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: good point | 14:16 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: you sleep? | 14:16 |
| gothicmindfood | ;) | 14:16 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: the week after events yes | 14:16 |
| gothicmindfood | week-after-openstack-event-ttx-hibernation | 14:16 |
| fungi | while 100% tc attendance is a great goal, i have serious doubts we'll ever get all 13 tc members' attention so accepting <100% would be more practical | 14:16 |
| jroll | fungi: ++ | 14:16 |
| ttx | only way to get 75% of tc would be to do it outside of PTG week | 14:17 |
| johnthetubaguy | fungi: +! | 14:17 |
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| ttx | we've been on that discussion about a Board+TC meeting | 14:17 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: totally get that. My concern is getting 70% of them in the room doing the work and then having the other 30% lacking context and getting upset about the work post-PTG | 14:17 |
| ttx | the PTg week is basically already more than full for cross-project people | 14:17 |
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| johnthetubaguy | so, I had always assumed we would have to find some way to make visioning async, I know thats not normal | 14:17 |
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| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: I think it can be, and should be during a phase of it | 14:18 |
| fungi | we always find ways to make everything async in our community. sometimes it doesn't work out great, but it's by necessity | 14:18 |
| gothicmindfood | but for initial drafting, I think it's best to have folks as syncronous as possible | 14:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | now a selection of folks kick starting things, in a traditional method, responsible for helping the the draft makes sense | 14:18 |
| gothicmindfood | but - I certainly understand the crazy schedules at the PTG | 14:18 |
| johnthetubaguy | trouble is, anything synchronous will always exclude folks, I am just saying 50% attendance might be considered a win here, and it has less value, but its better than not doing it | 14:19 |
| gothicmindfood | okay - alexismonville had a point about freshness/perspective, too, that makes me lean even harder towards the monday | 14:19 |
| EmilienM | right, meeting in person to bootstrap things is best than emails/irc | 14:19 |
| EmilienM | s/best/better/ (imho) | 14:19 |
| fungi | maybe if we took turns as "meeting secretary" recording minutes so that people who missed have more context than just the draft output? | 14:19 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: how do we confirm that we want an all-day session monday - just with you? :) | 14:19 |
| fungi | (whereby "we" i don't necessarily mean to imply that i'm assuming i'll be present) | 14:20 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: we'll be doing a lot of writing and pasting up on walls, so I'm sure we can preserve that | 14:20 |
| gothicmindfood | in pictures and with transcriptions if necessary | 14:20 |
| fungi | if i get to write on walls in crayon, i'll find a way to be tehre ;) | 14:20 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think promising lots of pictures, a various folks blogs on the event would certainly help | 14:21 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: I bet it's scratch-n-sniff sharpies :) | 14:21 |
| johnthetubaguy | fungi: heh | 14:21 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: it's the default situation | 14:21 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: okay cool. | 14:21 |
| ttx | We have a room earmarked for SWG/ArchWG on Monday/Tuesday | 14:21 |
| gothicmindfood | so I just have to reconfirm with the foundation that we can wrap this into training funding, and then reach out to ZingTrain to coordinate scheduling on that side | 14:21 |
| ttx | as mentioned on http://www.openstack.org/ptg | 14:21 |
| ttx | So who gets monday and who gets tuesday can be arranged between ArchWG and SWG | 14:21 |
| gothicmindfood | #action gothicmindfood to finalize TC Vision Facilitation timing with Foundation/ZingTrain/TC | 14:22 |
| gothicmindfood | okay awesome. Thank you for the advice everyone | 14:22 |
| fungi | just to clarify, i don't expect to have any time to be in the swg room monday/tuesday due to ptl responsibilities, but have faith others who are there can do a bang-up job drafting something i'll read and help polish later | 14:22 |
| gothicmindfood | and please pencil in that week of April 10 on your calendars for leadership training if you'd like to attend | 14:22 |
| johnthetubaguy | I vote we just try it with who can be there, certainly shouldn't be exclusive to TC members | 14:22 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: I'm definitely open to that, too | 14:23 |
| gothicmindfood | #topic SWG's PTG Vision | 14:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "SWG's PTG Vision (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 14:23 | |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/AtlantaPTG-SWG | 14:23 |
| ttx | we could do a TC visioning dinner too. But we all know how that usually turns out | 14:24 |
| gothicmindfood | so - my next question is if we do a full day visioning session - does that mean our other sessions/ideas get pushed back to another time? | 14:24 |
| ttx | We seem to have a vision track -> SWG vision -> TC vision -> OpenStack vision. Is tehre anything else we want to actively pursue in the coming months ? | 14:25 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: I think that's probably the most important goal, but I would like to start digging into a leadership "passport" for OpenStack and what that might look like | 14:25 |
| gothicmindfood | even though I think that's a longer term project | 14:26 |
| ttx | ok | 14:26 |
| gothicmindfood | it might be nice to write an SWG vision that goes beyond our presence at events, too :) | 14:26 |
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| gothicmindfood | I think we'll all learn a lot from the vision facilitation at the PTG, though | 14:27 |
| gothicmindfood | are we of a mind that we might have a TC vision finalized by Boston? | 14:27 |
| johnthetubaguy | honestly, I was assuming lots of the TC vision would end up needing signification support from the SWG, and would help drive a lot of what we do | 14:27 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: totally agree with that | 14:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I tried to write questions on that etherpad, based on this kind of thing | 14:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | I was thinking there is initial draft, vs finalized | 14:28 |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/AtlantaPTG-SWG-TCVision | 14:28 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: that one ^^ ? | 14:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | initial draft means the TC has signed off on it maybe? | 14:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah | 14:28 |
| johnthetubaguy | sorry, missing context there | 14:29 |
| johnthetubaguy | we were talking about getting UC and board reviews, I was thinking we should get the TC on roughly the same page first, but maybe thats too waterfall? | 14:30 |
| gothicmindfood | do we think that the TC vision, once a draft is accepted by the TC, should also be pushed to the community more broadly for feedback? | 14:30 |
| gothicmindfood | as a separate cycle? | 14:30 |
| gothicmindfood | ha. Same question, sorta. | 14:30 |
| gothicmindfood | I mean, it feels like this whole thing will be iterative in terms of opening up the feedback loops to different groups while we align ourselves with one another | 14:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | I think everyone can be involved in the first cycle | 14:31 |
| alexismonville | I think one of the success criteria could be that the TC is committed to publish a first version of the vision by 30 days after the PTG | 14:31 |
| gothicmindfood | each group will be inspired to think about how the vision aligns with their own (or doesn't) | 14:31 |
| gothicmindfood | as they write htem down for the first time | 14:31 |
| johnthetubaguy | I just really wondering what finalised means | 14:31 |
| jroll | given this is a vision for the TC, I think it makes sense to get TC on board first :) | 14:31 |
| alexismonville | so yes a draft should be available for feedback before | 14:31 |
| fungi | "final" is probably a poor term for the goal there | 14:32 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: yeah, right? :) I imagine finalized might mean, in an official sense, committed to an official governance repo and posted for the world to see | 14:32 |
| gothicmindfood | but that doesn't mean it can't change from there, obvs | 14:32 |
| fungi | (i don't expect there will ever be a completely final version of any document in our community) | 14:32 |
| fungi | right, that | 14:32 |
| gothicmindfood | and one of the powers of a vision is that it expires and you have to make a new one | 14:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | so I think the TC should all agree on something by Boston | 14:32 |
| persia | Perhaps we could call it an "approved" revision? | 14:32 |
| gothicmindfood | because it's really just about a point in time | 14:32 |
| johnthetubaguy | maybe thats a better way to look at it? | 14:33 |
| alexismonville | +1 for approved revision | 14:33 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: I was hoping that by Boston we could have already had a larger community involvement as well | 14:33 |
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| fungi | approved sounds good. an agreed-upon and consensual initial revision | 14:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: when is TC elections? | 14:33 |
| gothicmindfood | bootstrapping the TC in post-PTG by April or so, and then asking for feedback pre-Boston to maybe finalize/publish there? | 14:33 |
| johnthetubaguy | would that be a good aim, get it aggreed before? | 14:33 |
| fungi | #link https://governance.openstack.org/election/ | 14:34 |
| fungi | johnthetubaguy: ^ | 14:34 |
| alexismonville | I think that is needed to give a direction to the different project | 14:34 |
| fungi | we don't have finalized tc election dates listed yet | 14:34 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: yeah, I think agreed on before and then publicized/asking UC & Board for feedback so Boston can be a discussion | 14:34 |
| fungi | but they'll be at least after the ptl elections | 14:35 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: weeks before Boston | 14:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: right, we were re-aligning with that | 14:35 |
| johnthetubaguy | well, not changing it | 14:35 |
| * gothicmindfood just added a thing in th etherpad for timing | 14:36 | |
| gothicmindfood | looking at q 1.1 - was there ever a decision made between 18 months and 24 months? | 14:37 |
| gothicmindfood | it'd be nice to walk into the PTG knowing what our vision timescale is | 14:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | my original thinking was agree it for a timeframe after all those who have voted on it will be re-elected | 14:38 |
| johnthetubaguy | that being the minimum amount of time | 14:38 |
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| johnthetubaguy | gothicmindfood: what more normal, longer term? | 14:39 |
| gothicmindfood | yeah, usually 5-10 years is a common visioning timeframe | 14:39 |
| gothicmindfood | but I think there's absolutely a case to do 2 years here | 14:39 |
| johnthetubaguy | leaning longer seems to make sense, so lets start off with two years? | 14:40 |
| gothicmindfood | is anyone uncomfortable with a 2 year vision? | 14:40 |
| EmilienM | it sounds a lot, but it seems "normal" (/me learning here) | 14:41 |
| gothicmindfood | I think it works for us pretty well, given the uniqueness of our community | 14:41 |
| gothicmindfood | (changing tech, fluctuating members based on corporate interest, etc.) | 14:41 |
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| gothicmindfood | so let's say 2 years going into the PTG | 14:41 |
| gothicmindfood | we may decide that doesn't work when we get in the room, but I think that's okay too :) | 14:42 |
| johnthetubaguy | seems like a good starting point | 14:42 |
| alexismonville | ++ | 14:42 |
| jroll | 2 years sounds good to me | 14:44 |
| gothicmindfood | so - out of curiosity - has everyone here read a vision that's outside of OpenStack context before? | 14:44 |
| gothicmindfood | I think that might be a good thing to recommend, too, before the PTG | 14:44 |
| johnthetubaguy | gothicmindfood: can you put those links you sent me before in there as pre-work, thats a good idea | 14:44 |
| gothicmindfood | maybe I will post them in the etherpad for folks to read? | 14:44 |
| jroll | ++ | 14:44 |
| gothicmindfood | #action gothicmindfood to post some visions-as-reference in TC Vision etherpad | 14:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | gothicmindfood: added a Recomended Preparation work section | 14:45 |
| alexismonville | great | 14:45 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: I wonder if we should turn your list on its head? | 14:45 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: what do you mean ? | 14:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: that one you are typing now is more what I was thinking, like listing categorised "problems" | 14:46 |
| johnthetubaguy | right now lots of them are solutions we have proposed | 14:46 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: I built the list based on things we have done in the past, as I summarize them in annual Foundation reports | 14:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | like documenting existing culture helps ensure an inclusive and welcoming environment for open collaboration | 14:47 |
| ttx | clearly there is still room for things we are not doing and should be doing :) | 14:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, its a good starting point, I guess what I am proposing is a second list | 14:47 |
| ttx | It's just that we probably need to cover what we are actually doing, too | 14:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | ++ covering that | 14:47 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: sounds like a good idea | 14:47 |
| johnthetubaguy | not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as they save over here | 14:48 |
| johnthetubaguy | s/save/say/ | 14:48 |
| gothicmindfood | I'm really excited that we might get a draft vision by the end of the PTG | 14:49 |
| gothicmindfood | do we want to talk any more about this TC Vision etherpad, or should we move to open discussion for the last 10 minutes? | 14:50 |
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| ttx | johnthetubaguy: the inverted list will be interesting to make sure we identify improvements/aspirations | 14:50 |
| johnthetubaguy | I guess I am curious what the next steps | 14:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: cool, yeah, I like having both lists now I see a little bit of both | 14:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | gothicmindfood you are talking to the facilitators | 14:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | rest of us are filling out the lists and questions on the etherpad to get the creative juices flowing, so to speak | 14:51 |
| johnthetubaguy | are we missing an action there? | 14:52 |
| gothicmindfood | yup. I may ask them to take a peek at that etherpad, too :) | 14:52 |
| gothicmindfood | I don't think so - I just have to follow through with that setup I mentioned earlier btwn foundation and zingtrain | 14:52 |
| gothicmindfood | and I already action'd that | 14:52 |
| gothicmindfood | do you think I should show up at a TC meeting and like, talk about this stuff? | 14:52 |
| gothicmindfood | or does someone else want to bring it up there? | 14:53 |
| gothicmindfood | ;) | 14:53 |
| * gothicmindfood jokes, but will have a much more normal schedule starting next week and will actually be able to go to meetings again | 14:53 | |
| persia | I think there are enough TC members here that it would be sensible for one of them to represent to the TC | 14:53 |
| persia | (unless that creates unwanted impression of bias) | 14:53 |
| johnthetubaguy | yeah, lets get this on the agenda for next time, as a heads up | 14:53 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: dyou want to take that action? | 14:53 |
| ttx | johnthetubaguy: we can mention it in open discussion | 14:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | ttx: yeah, lets do that, simpler | 14:54 |
| gothicmindfood | yay. | 14:54 |
| johnthetubaguy | I can take that action | 14:54 |
| fungi | seems fine to me (tc hat on) | 14:54 |
| gothicmindfood | and as a context-filler, I've been remarkably absent from work life because I've been working on this: http://publictheater.org/Tickets/Calendar/PlayDetailsCollection/UTR/UTR-2017/Hundred-Days/ | 14:54 |
| gothicmindfood | if anyone's in NYC in the next week and wants to come :) | 14:54 |
| gothicmindfood | now that we're open, I get my life back | 14:55 |
| johnthetubaguy | governance repo patches are getting abandoned with a note to see the etherpad too | 14:55 |
| gothicmindfood | #action ttx and johnthetubaguy to bring up vision planning at TC meeting open discussion | 14:55 |
| alexismonville | congrats gothicmindfood | 14:56 |
| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: thanks! :) | 14:56 |
| gothicmindfood | anything else for our last 4 minutes? | 14:56 |
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| gothicmindfood | alright - I'm going to give folks a couple minutes back, then. we can take the rest of convo over to #openstack-swg as usual | 14:57 |
| gothicmindfood | thanks so much everyone! | 14:57 |
| gothicmindfood | #endmeeting | 14:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 14:57 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Jan 5 14:57:57 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2017/openstack_swg.2017-01-05-14.01.html | 14:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2017/openstack_swg.2017-01-05-14.01.txt | 14:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2017/openstack_swg.2017-01-05-14.01.log.html | 14:58 |
| ttx | Thanks gothicmindfood! | 14:58 |
| johnthetubaguy | +1 | 14:58 |
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| mlavalle | #startmeeting neutron_l3 | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Jan 5 15:00:22 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mlavalle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_l3' | 15:00 |
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| mlavalle | hi there! | 15:00 |
| janzian | o/ | 15:01 |
| haleyb | happy new year | 15:01 |
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| mlavalle | haleyb, janzian: happy new year! | 15:01 |
| baoli | hi,happy new year | 15:01 |
| mlavalle | welcome baoli ! | 15:01 |
| mlavalle | #topic Announcements | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:02 | |
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| mlavalle | Agenda for today is here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-l3-subteam | 15:02 |
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| mlavalle | We are less ~ 3 weeks from Ocata-3: January 23 - 27 | 15:04 |
| mlavalle | #link https://releases.openstack.org/ocata/schedule.html | 15:04 |
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| mlavalle | Before we now it, it will be Project Team Gathering time, February 20 - 24 | 15:05 |
| mlavalle | #link https://www.openstack.org/ptg/ | 15:05 |
| mlavalle | any other announcements? | 15:06 |
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| haleyb | Yes, we need to start a wiki page for discussion topics (if someone hasn't already) | 15:06 |
| mlavalle | haleyb: for the PTG? | 15:07 |
| haleyb | mlavalle: yes | 15:07 |
| mlavalle | why not an etherpad? | 15:07 |
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| mlavalle | I find them friendlier | 15:08 |
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| haleyb | mlavalle: because wiki is easier to type :) yes, i meant etherpad | 15:08 |
| mlavalle | LOL, ok..... I'll start one if you want and send a message to the ML. Does that work? | 15:09 |
| haleyb | mlavalle: well there might already be a neutron one, i just haven't checked | 15:09 |
| mlavalle | haleyb: ahhh, ok. Maybe we can ask this question on Monday, during the Neutron meeting | 15:10 |
| mlavalle | I haven't seen a message in the ML from armax | 15:10 |
| haleyb | sounds good | 15:11 |
| mlavalle | #action mlavalle to question about PTG etherpad during the next Neutron meeting | 15:11 |
| mlavalle | #topic Bugs | 15:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:12 | |
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| *** Guest41100 is now known as dansmith | 15:15 | |
| mlavalle | With the holidays slowdown there hasn't been much change in the overall picture | 15:15 |
| mlavalle | First one is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1610483 | 15:15 |
| mlavalle | This is the one about the IPAM rollback mechanism not being robust enough | 15:15 |
| mlavalle | (bot seems to be slow today) | 15:15 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1610483 in neutron "Pluggable IPAM rollback mechanism is not robust" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Aliaksandr Dziarkach (aliaksandr-dziarkach) | 15:15 |
| mlavalle | Proposed fix is here: https://review.openstack.org/390594 | 15:15 |
| mlavalle | I encourage folks to review the fix | 15:15 |
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| mlavalle | any other comments? | 15:15 |
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| mlavalle | ok, next up is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1570122 | 15:16 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1570122 in neutron "ipv6 prefix delegated subnets are not accessable external of the router they are attached." [High,In progress] - Assigned to John Davidge (john-davidge) | 15:16 |
| mlavalle | john-davidge is working on this one. Proposed fix is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/407025/ | 15:17 |
| haleyb | looks to just need a test | 15:18 |
| mlavalle | since john-davidge is off this week, we won't see any change until next week | 15:18 |
| mlavalle | yeah, I think he will address that when he comes back | 15:19 |
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| mlavalle | any other comments? | 15:19 |
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| mlavalle | Next one is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1627424 | 15:21 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1627424 in neutron "FlushError on IPAllocation" [High,Confirmed] - Assigned to Miguel Lavalle (minsel) | 15:21 |
| mlavalle | We've had 17 hits of this one over the past week | 15:21 |
| mlavalle | It mostly happens as a consequence of rally tests | 15:22 |
| mlavalle | IN those cases, it happens when deleting a subnet | 15:22 |
| mlavalle | when deleting the ports | 15:22 |
| mlavalle | I am narrowing it down from there right now | 15:23 |
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| mlavalle | any comments, advice, questions? | 15:23 |
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| haleyb | thanks for continuing to look at it miguel | 15:24 |
| mlavalle | :-) | 15:24 |
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| mlavalle | There are other paths that trigger it, but yesterday I decided to exhaust the rally one in my digging. That way I can accumulate some knowledge. Let's see where I get over the next couple of days | 15:25 |
| mlavalle | Next one is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1627480 | 15:26 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1627480 in neutron "create_port can succeed without returning fixed_ips on all requested subnets" [High,Confirmed] | 15:26 |
| mlavalle | I don't have any updates here, other than when I am done with the previous one, I'll pursue this one. If someone wants to take it please go ahead | 15:27 |
| mlavalle | any other bugs from the team? | 15:28 |
| mlavalle | ok.... | 15:29 |
| mlavalle | #topic Prefix Delegation | 15:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Prefix Delegation (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:29 | |
| mlavalle | any updates baoli? | 15:29 |
| baoli | mlavalle: I have a couple of patches for review, both of them have passed jenkins | 15:30 |
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| baoli | haleyb: thanks for review and the +2 | 15:30 |
| haleyb | baoli: thanks for the change, i need to get to the other review | 15:31 |
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| mlavalle | baoli: ok, I'll take a look at https://review.openstack.org/#/c/408306/ | 15:32 |
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| baoli | mlavalle: thanks! | 15:32 |
| mlavalle | baoli: most likely I'll do it tomorrow :-) | 15:33 |
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| mlavalle | any other comments? | 15:34 |
| mlavalle | ok | 15:34 |
| mlavalle | #topic Service Subnets | 15:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Service Subnets (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:35 | |
| mlavalle | I see good progress was made on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/411463/ | 15:35 |
| mlavalle | before the holidays | 15:35 |
| mlavalle | the docs guys are reviewing it | 15:35 |
| mlavalle | any other comments? | 15:36 |
| haleyb | mlavalle: i was going to update it today, but others were nice to update while i was out | 15:36 |
| mlavalle | yeah, I can see it | 15:36 |
| mlavalle | Let's keep an eye on it:-) | 15:36 |
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| mlavalle | #topic Routed Networks | 15:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Routed Networks (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:37 | |
| mlavalle | On this topic I made great progress over the holidays (while juggling visiting kids and wife) | 15:37 |
| mlavalle | I have two patchsets up for review | 15:38 |
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| mlavalle | The first one is the ReST client that we need in Neutron to talk to the placement API in Nova to update it about the availability of IPv4 addresses in routed networks subnets | 15:39 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/414726/ | 15:39 |
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| mlavalle | I tested it extensively over the holidays and is fully functional. I encourage folks to review it | 15:40 |
| * haleyb adds to review queue | 15:40 | |
| mlavalle | The second one is the piece in Neutron server that uses the aforementioned client to actually update Nova with the IPv4 inventories | 15:41 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/358658 | 15:41 |
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| mlavalle | I also tested it extensively over the holidays. It is also fully functional, with a little exception | 15:41 |
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| mlavalle | during my testin I uncovered a bug on the Nova side: | 15:42 |
| mlavalle | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1652642 | 15:42 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1652642 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Nova API doesn't return aggregate's uuid, which is needed when using the placement API" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Jay Pipes (jaypipes) | 15:42 |
| haleyb | mlavalle: so holidays != rest ? :) | 15:43 |
| janzian | In his case, holidays = ReST | 15:43 |
| mlavalle | The Nova team jumped at it really quickly so I am getting all the help I need from that side | 15:43 |
| haleyb | janzian: nice one! | 15:44 |
| janzian | :) | 15:44 |
| mlavalle | I encourage people to review the code in my patchset. The places where the bug affects it is very well isolated and marked with TODOs | 15:44 |
| mlavalle | so I think we can make progress in parallel with the Nova guys if Neutron reviewers take a look at the code ignoring those few TODOs | 15:45 |
| mlavalle | any questions / comments? | 15:46 |
| mlavalle | I plan to update the blueprint with this progress prior to the Neutron meeting on Monday | 15:47 |
| mlavalle | #topic Open Agenda | 15:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Agenda (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:48 | |
| mlavalle | Any other topics from the team? | 15:48 |
| mlavalle | Going once.... | 15:49 |
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| mlavalle | Going twice.... | 15:49 |
| mlavalle | Sold! | 15:50 |
| mlavalle | #endmeeting | 15:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:50 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Jan 5 15:50:18 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:50 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2017/neutron_l3.2017-01-05-15.00.html | 15:50 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2017/neutron_l3.2017-01-05-15.00.txt | 15:50 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2017/neutron_l3.2017-01-05-15.00.log.html | 15:50 |
| mlavalle | Thanks for attending guys! | 15:50 |
| haleyb | thanks mlavalle | 15:50 |
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| cdent | #startmeeting api-wg | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Jan 5 16:00:00 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is cdent. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'api_wg' | 16:00 |
| elmiko | hola | 16:00 |
| cdent | hello! who has shown up from the api-wg meeting? | 16:00 |
| rosmaita | o/ | 16:00 |
| sigmavirus | hello, e'rybody! | 16:00 |
| cdent | #chair elmiko etoews edleafe | 16:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: cdent edleafe elmiko etoews | 16:00 |
| cdent | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/API-WG#Agenda | 16:00 |
| cdent | There's, like, actual stuff on the agenda this week! | 16:01 |
| etoews | o/ | 16:01 |
| cdent | #topic previous action items | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "previous action items (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:01 | |
| cdent | #link last meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2016/api_wg.2016-12-15-16.01.html | 16:01 |
| elmiko | ooh neat | 16:01 |
| cdent | agitating about capabilities (done) | 16:01 |
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| cdent | ed making some new guidelines on booleans and state status (done) | 16:02 |
| cdent | #topic Glance Community Images and the API stability guidelines (rosmaita) | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Glance Community Images and the API stability guidelines (rosmaita) (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:03 | |
| cdent | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-ocata-community-images-api-stability | 16:03 |
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| cdent | take it away rosmaita | 16:03 |
| rosmaita | thanks | 16:03 |
| rosmaita | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-ocata-community-images-api-stability | 16:03 |
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| rosmaita | you may have seen the item on the ML before the holidays | 16:03 |
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| rosmaita | the etherpad linked above has the basic info about my question | 16:04 |
| rosmaita | probably best to read through the etherpad? | 16:04 |
| elmiko | reading now | 16:04 |
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| * rosmaita sits on his hands | 16:05 | |
| elmiko | lol | 16:05 |
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| cdent | I'l start by saying that I don't agree with the evaluating api changes document, but it is the "standard" that we have. | 16:06 |
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| sigmavirus | cdent: what don't you agree with? | 16:06 |
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| sigmavirus | It's also not as if all standards are written in stone | 16:07 |
| cdent | nor do I agree that tempest maintainers shoud be the arbiters of what is correct behavior in an api | 16:07 |
| elmiko | rosmaita: question about the visibility stuff, are these values in the body response? | 16:07 |
| sigmavirus | elmiko: they're both request parameters and response body parameters iirc | 16:07 |
| cdent | but I make both comments as an independent observer, not as API-WG core™ | 16:07 |
| * sigmavirus is here with Glance and also not with Glance ;) | 16:07 | |
| elmiko | sigmavirus: ack, thanks | 16:07 |
| elmiko | nice | 16:07 |
| rosmaita | elmiko: what sigmavirus said | 16:07 |
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| * stevelle is like sigmavirus | 16:08 | |
| * sigmavirus is also here to discuss pagination | 16:08 | |
| elmiko | as to #1, i don't see why that is not possible | 16:08 |
| etoews | the way i read it is that the tempest maintainers are being the arbiters of backwards incompatible changes but i may not have all of the context | 16:08 |
| elmiko | if you are rev'ing the version anyways, seems ok to expand those definitions | 16:09 |
| sigmavirus | elmiko: I agree. It's an API expansion which I always understood to be acceptable | 16:09 |
| sigmavirus | etoews: agreed with you | 16:09 |
| rosmaita | elmiko: i bring it up, becase a literal reading of the guideline seems to rule it out | 16:09 |
| elmiko | correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought with the new versioning changes we are bumping the major release for each openstack version. so, wouldn't that dictate that backward incompat changes are acceptable? | 16:10 |
| sigmavirus | elmiko: which versioning changes? | 16:10 |
| elmiko | rosmaita: ok, let me re-review the guidance | 16:10 |
| sigmavirus | as in Glance 13.0.0 to 14.0.0? | 16:10 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus: yeah, not exactly new. bad phrasing on my part. | 16:10 |
| cdent | elmiko: I don't think that applies to exposed HTTP APIs | 16:11 |
| elmiko | cdent: ah | 16:11 |
| sigmavirus | elmiko: right, so I've disagreed with the way openstack versions and does "semantic versioning" for a long time but that does not really follow convention or defacto rule son backwards compat | 16:11 |
| elmiko | yeah, certainly seems that way | 16:11 |
| * edleafe is back | 16:12 | |
| cdent | rosmaita: can I present a summary to you so you can tell me if my brain is wrong? | 16:12 |
| sigmavirus | elmiko: yeah, the APIs are versioned independently of the software | 16:12 |
| rosmaita | cdent: fire away! | 16:12 |
| sigmavirus | cdent: that'd probably benefit everyone :) | 16:12 |
| cdent | Before 2017 there was a long an arduous debate about how to deal with visibility. That reached a conclusion that didn't make everyone happy but at least made everyone not want to burn it all to the ground. Then | 16:13 |
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| cdent | implementation of that solution has resulted in a conflict with the norms enforced in tempest | 16:14 |
| cdent | because behavior has changed | 16:14 |
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| cdent | a proposal to work around that changed behvior by changing the test has been rejected as that is, in fact, a work around, and as such violates proper backwards compatibility | 16:14 |
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| sigmavirus | cdent: correct thus far | 16:15 |
| cdent | thus we are now trying to decide which norms to follow, which to break, or just some way to move foward | 16:15 |
| rosmaita | rem acu tetigisti | 16:15 |
| stevelle | it isn't terribly important, but I'll point it out: the tempest test in question was added during Ocata | 16:15 |
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| cdent | If that's all correct, my only source of confusion is really around: what are we trying to decide? What are our options? Do we want to/think we can tell tempest to do things differently? | 16:16 |
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| rosmaita | here's the situation | 16:16 |
| cdent | stevelle: I think that's a pretty important consideration | 16:16 |
| rosmaita | the specific test breaks if you include an optional 'visibility' when creating an image | 16:17 |
| cdent | (the age of the test) | 16:17 |
| rosmaita | if you don't include the optional 'visibility', it would pass | 16:17 |
| rosmaita | so our opinion is that the change is "mostly" backward compatible | 16:18 |
| rosmaita | (or *my* opinion, anyway) | 16:18 |
| sigmavirus | cdent: specifically if you say you want your image to have "visibility = private" and then try to share it, that's what breaks | 16:18 |
| edleafe | rosmaita: was 'visibility' a valid param in the past? | 16:18 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: yes | 16:18 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: then it breaks the API | 16:18 |
| rosmaita | edleafe: the break doesn't happen in the creation of the image | 16:19 |
| elmiko | is there an issue with simply expanding the tempest tests for visbility, or does that run against the backward compat issue? | 16:19 |
| stevelle | edleafe: it was default to private, and the other choice (public) was limited by to admin by RBAC by default | 16:19 |
| edleafe | ...or at least the tempest test | 16:19 |
| rosmaita | it happens when you try to add a member to the image | 16:19 |
| etoews | i don't suppose you have any real data on who is depending on the current behaviour in real life (non-tempest-wise) | 16:19 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: I absolutely sympathize with that, but I think along those lines that this will break the API regardless based on what tempest suggests we do | 16:19 |
| clarkb | random drive by comment, these changes are particularly bad for users when there is no way to discover whether or not such a param is valid from the outside | 16:19 |
| rosmaita | clarkb: the param is valid | 16:19 |
| clarkb | if I have been using it for years then all of a sudden it stops working on some portion of my clouds then I have a bad day | 16:19 |
| rosmaita | what happens is that what you can do with your image depends on what visibility you give it | 16:20 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: a similar test could create the image with visibility "private", add an image and then assert the visibility is still private afterwards. The "workaround" the tempest team suggested will break that | 16:20 |
| sigmavirus | That's not meant to justify anything, just to give perspective that really the whole thing can be considered breaking, especially provided a user isn't already familiar with glance or changes introduced in ocata | 16:21 |
| cdent | my understanding from the pre-2107 debate was that there was awareness that this chang was going to have user impact but that it was an important change to make a better future, the past was a bug, and this is pain that just needs to be eaten, now. | 16:21 |
| edleafe | Well, unless the existing test is invalid or incorrect in what it tests (which happens a lot), then the change isn't backwards compatible | 16:21 |
| sigmavirus | If a user creates the image, adds a member to it, and then sees that it's suddenly marked as "shared" instead of "private" I have to wonder if they'll be surprised by that or not | 16:21 |
| cdent | If my statement is correct, then I would think that changing tempest is the right thing to do. | 16:22 |
| stevelle | edleafe: see above, where it is not claimed to be backwards compatible | 16:22 |
| clarkb | rosmaita: right my specific thing is don't change behavior without any way of making it discoverable between clouds that otherwise appear the same to the user (which I think is the case here if I am reading about why tempest fails. Yesterday it was fine, today not, clouds look the same) | 16:22 |
| stevelle | claimed to be mostly* | 16:22 |
| elmiko | cdent: +1 | 16:22 |
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| sigmavirus | clarkb: so you're right. Since Glance doesn't have microversions, there's no way for a user to get yesterday's behaviour back | 16:23 |
| rosmaita | cdent: i agree with your "my understanding" comment above | 16:23 |
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| sigmavirus | But Glance will report that the version has changed which is a pittance of a way to discover the new version | 16:23 |
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| sigmavirus | (or changes) | 16:23 |
| etoews | sigmavirus: if you add a member, how could it be considered anything but shared? it's literally being shared. | 16:23 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: this would be a non-issue with microversions | 16:23 |
| sigmavirus | etoews: because right now it remains private | 16:23 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: agreed | 16:23 |
| clarkb | sigmavirus: right and that to me is the actual major issue with these changes | 16:24 |
| clarkb | sigmavirus: it makes using openstack as a user incredibly frustrating | 16:24 |
| sigmavirus | clarkb: I'm 100% with you | 16:24 |
| sigmavirus | We have a vocal minority in glance that's opposed to microversions | 16:24 |
| edleafe | So it's a trade-off of one frustrating thing for another potentially frustrating thing | 16:24 |
| rosmaita | clarkb: the tradeoff is that the visibility semantics will now make sense | 16:24 |
| edleafe | just different users being frustrated | 16:25 |
| rosmaita | edleafe: +1 | 16:25 |
| stevelle | edleafe: agreed | 16:25 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: correct. And don't get me wrong. I absolutely think this behaviour is a huge improvement | 16:25 |
| cdent | the theory is: fewer users being frustrated | 16:25 |
| edleafe | cdent: fewer is better, unless it's in a serious way | 16:25 |
| clarkb | rosmaita: edleafe yes but the impact to someone who is now broken in production and has no clue why vs someone learning funky semantics vs just telling the user whats up properly are not the same | 16:25 |
| edleafe | clarkb: makes sense | 16:26 |
| cdent | we need to timebox this in some fashion. | 16:26 |
| sigmavirus | Additional consideration: This change also auto-migrates existing images | 16:26 |
| sigmavirus | So private images with members will automagically become shared after this change | 16:26 |
| rosmaita | clarkb: the change is designed so that if you use defaults, everything works the same | 16:26 |
| rosmaita | so don't anticipate problems in production systems | 16:26 |
| sigmavirus | ^ is very true | 16:27 |
| etoews | that's significant | 16:27 |
| cdent | From what I recall the discussion of the details of the change were _well_ trod when making the spec and discussing the email. We don't want to revisit that now. | 16:27 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: how serious is that? | 16:27 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: IOW, is it a potential security hole? | 16:27 |
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| sigmavirus | edleafe: is what a potential security hole? | 16:27 |
| sigmavirus | auto-translating image visibility? | 16:27 |
| stevelle | edleafe: it is backwards compatible | 16:27 |
| sigmavirus | I think it is | 16:27 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: yeah | 16:27 |
| etoews | glance is clearly making a real effort to mitigate the risk | 16:28 |
| edleafe | E.g.: I made this private, but suddenly it's shared | 16:28 |
| clarkb | (I don't intend to retrod anything, just want to point out that to me as a user that is the actual concern, I think improving APIs is great we just need to be better and communicating to users how things have changed across clouds) | 16:28 |
| sigmavirus | copy-paste wrong image-id and now you've shared an image, but that's the same thing as the current behaviour | 16:28 |
| sigmavirus | so it's not a new risk | 16:28 |
| sigmavirus | clarkb: agreed | 16:28 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: right now "private" can mean "private" or "private with members == shared" | 16:28 |
| rosmaita | that's the key problem, i think | 16:28 |
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| rosmaita | 'private' != "private" | 16:29 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: I only ask because unless it would do something horribly nasty, it sure sounds like this change would be a big improvement | 16:29 |
| elmiko | yeah, that seems imprecise | 16:29 |
| cdent | So let me ask again: How can the api-wg help in this matter, now? | 16:29 |
| rosmaita | the issue is whether this change would violate the guidelines | 16:30 |
| jokke_ | edleafe: really only nastyness it does is that it breaks one very precise tempest test | 16:30 |
| rosmaita | the -1 on the tempest patch says it does | 16:30 |
| sigmavirus | cdent: I think Glance is just stuck on technicalities with guidelines and dealing with Tempest's/QA Team's feedback | 16:30 |
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| edleafe | jokke_: which means it doesn't do anything nasty to actual users | 16:31 |
| cdent | a) they are just guidelines, they are violated all the time b) the existing semantics are (to me) a bug, at least mentally a security bug, so gravy | 16:31 |
| cdent | where "gravy" means "the guidance approves" | 16:31 |
| elmiko | i tend to agree with cdent | 16:31 |
| edleafe | So could a case be made that the existing Tempest test suffers from the same imprecision? | 16:32 |
| jokke_ | edleafe: and anyone who has bee creating images with --visibility='private' will need to first change the image to shared before running the member actions | 16:32 |
| edleafe | (as the private has more than one meaning) | 16:32 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: the current test represents a potential real usage of Glance | 16:32 |
| rosmaita | edleafe: what i'd say is this: the existing test explicitly says to create a private image | 16:32 |
| rosmaita | then, when you share it, it fails, as it should | 16:32 |
| rosmaita | (though, currently, it would succeed) | 16:32 |
| jokke_ | cdent: we've actually had multiple bugs opened complaining that private is really not private | 16:33 |
| rosmaita | the test would succeed if you (a) created an image with no viz specified, or (b) created it with viz == shared | 16:33 |
| edleafe | So it currently passes on something that should really be a failure? | 16:33 |
| sigmavirus | we also don't recommend that users specify visibility necessarily but allow it | 16:33 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: ugh that's half-true, I guess? | 16:33 |
| jokke_ | edleafe: correct | 16:33 |
| cdent | Yeah sounds like the test is pretty much wrong | 16:33 |
| sigmavirus | I mean presently with only two visibilities, a failure is hard to quantify | 16:33 |
| stevelle | so as an action, either replies in support of changing the tempest test to support the spec as written, or responses to the tempest change may be helpful | 16:33 |
| sigmavirus | Because public visibility's members don't matter | 16:34 |
| sigmavirus | And I don't think you can add members to "public" images now | 16:34 |
| sigmavirus | So you have to have a private image to add a member | 16:34 |
| jokke_ | edleafe: not by design should fail but by any basic logic should fail | 16:34 |
| cdent | can someone # link the review of the tempest in here please? | 16:34 |
| sigmavirus | So it's a failure and it's a not failure too | 16:34 |
| edleafe | Then I think it's clear that the test should be changed if it passes on a disallowed action | 16:34 |
| stevelle | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/414261/ | 16:34 |
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| cdent | thanks | 16:34 |
| sigmavirus | Glance's visibility logic is just really bad presently | 16:34 |
| cdent | #action (everyone) go comment on tempest test change https://review.openstack.org/#/c/414261/ | 16:34 |
| etoews | i abhor backwards incompatible changes but the current behaviour really is a bug and flat out needs to be fixed. i lean towards it being acceptable. | 16:34 |
| * edleafe doesn't hold tests as sacred | 16:34 | |
| cdent | we need to move on | 16:34 |
| rosmaita | ok, thanks everyone | 16:35 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus: seems like it | 16:35 |
| rosmaita | i think this has been helpful, let's see what the QA team says | 16:35 |
| cdent | that was fun | 16:35 |
| sigmavirus | (That's not the only thing that has that description in glance though =P) | 16:35 |
| jokke_ | thanks all ... we really appreciate your time on this! | 16:35 |
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| cdent | #topic open mic | 16:35 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open mic (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:35 | |
| cdent | resource actions came up again shortly before christmas | 16:36 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus, rosmaita, jokke_, thanks for bringing it up =) | 16:36 |
| cdent | #link resource actions email: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-December/109136.html | 16:36 |
| cdent | the usual three perspectives on that were represented, with the usual lack of consensus | 16:36 |
| cdent | I mention it here because it is something we probably need to continue to think about as it is going to keep coming back up | 16:36 |
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| cdent | thoughts for the record? or if you want to add to that thread, that would be cool. Or if you want to resurrect the guideline process that would be cool too. | 16:38 |
| cdent | If not, I'll move on. | 16:38 |
| edleafe | I added my thoughts to the thread | 16:38 |
| cdent | Who added the boston cfp link? | 16:39 |
| etoews | moi | 16:39 |
| cdent | #link boston cfp: https://www.openstack.org/summit/boston-2017/call-for-presentations/ | 16:39 |
| etoews | just as a reminder that we need to do the usual song and dance for boston | 16:39 |
| cdent | Not confirmed but I predict I will not be there (I won't be at ptg either). | 16:40 |
| edleafe | I will be at ptg, but boston is still a question mark | 16:40 |
| etoews | both are questionable for me as well | 16:40 |
| cdent | elmiko? | 16:41 |
| elmiko | i highly doubt i'll be able to attend, unless i pay my own way there | 16:41 |
| elmiko | maybe, if i got a paper accepted about the stuff i'm currently working on, but it's kinda removed from the openstack world. sadly | 16:42 |
| cdent | next open mic topic: Do we want to have a process/discussion about setting some 2017 goals, or shall we go with the flow? | 16:42 |
| edleafe | You mean like New Years resolutions? :) | 16:43 |
| elmiko | hehe | 16:43 |
| cdent | The world at large thinks we are doing a pretty good job and not overreaching, so the status quo may be just fine | 16:43 |
| cdent | pretty much yeah | 16:43 |
| cdent | things we plan to do but don't | 16:43 |
| elmiko | hmm, given that feedback cdent, go with the flow seems appropriate | 16:43 |
| elmiko | i like the idea of setting some goals | 16:43 |
| etoews | our new year's resolution is to maintain the status quo | 16:43 |
| edleafe | We don't have any huge gaping voids that we're aware of, so the flow seems right | 16:43 |
| elmiko | etoews: LOL +1 | 16:43 |
| sigmavirus | but that's no fun | 16:43 |
| cdent | my feelings exactly sigmavirus | 16:44 |
| sigmavirus | always be agitating | 16:44 |
| edleafe | ok, maintain the status quo, but lose 10 pounds | 16:44 |
| cdent | that too | 16:44 |
| elmiko | our plan for 2017 is to increase overreach? | 16:44 |
| * sigmavirus wonders if there is weight gain associated with working on OpenStack like there is with college | 16:44 | |
| cdent | I personally think we can do more on the aspirational side of thing, but some people think that would be overreach | 16:44 |
| elmiko | sigmavirus: don't even get me started... | 16:44 |
| * rosmaita has experienced the OpenStack weight gain | 16:45 | |
| cdent | metoo@aol.com | 16:45 |
| sigmavirus | cdent: aspirational *ideas* wouldn't be bad | 16:45 |
| elmiko | haha | 16:45 |
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| sigmavirus | (Says the person including them in his present review) | 16:45 |
| etoews | i think one the real issues around this is that we don't necessarily have the bandwidth to take action on the aspirations. | 16:45 |
| sigmavirus | (totally not a shameless plug right there) | 16:45 |
| elmiko | etoews: +1 | 16:45 |
| edleafe | etoews: true that | 16:46 |
| sigmavirus | etoews: but I thought we were here to lead other's thoughts | 16:46 |
| etoews | heh | 16:46 |
| sigmavirus | thought leaders don't take action. They come up with actions for others | 16:46 |
| cdent | one thing we could do is propose work/issues for the arch-wg around api stuff | 16:46 |
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| cdent | jinx! | 16:46 |
| etoews | to the twitters! | 16:46 |
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| * sigmavirus lies face in palm | 16:46 | |
| cdent | anyway, don't need to do anything immediately, another one for the "think about" queue | 16:46 |
| cdent | #topic guidelines | 16:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "guidelines (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:46 | |
| cdent | #link guidelines https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/api-wg,n,z | 16:47 |
| cdent | we have some | 16:47 |
| cdent | but I don't reckon any are ready for freeze (due to xmas) | 16:47 |
| edleafe | yeah, I'd like further review | 16:47 |
| cdent | the capability one had a lot of discussion in the nova-api meeting recently: | 16:47 |
| sigmavirus | I was wondering if people had comments on edleafe's comment on the pagination review | 16:47 |
| cdent | #link capability in nova-api: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_api/2017/nova_api.2017-01-04-13.00.log.html#l-59 | 16:48 |
| edleafe | I just kind of threw some of those out there for others to pound on | 16:48 |
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| edleafe | sigmavirus: comments on comments? | 16:48 |
| sigmavirus | I don't doubt that having "last" is expensive for some projects, but I wonder if there needs to be mention of optional components on something that's purely aspirational | 16:48 |
| cdent | people like clarity, ed's comment corresponds to the one I made earlier about optionality | 16:49 |
| cdent | some of those are MUST and some are MAY | 16:49 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: I think that someone looking at these as guidelines will try to copy them as closely as possible. It's good to let them know where the pitfalls may lie | 16:49 |
| sigmavirus | Sure, I thought I had expanded on that well enough | 16:49 |
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| cdent | sigmavirus: i haven't looked at version 4 yet | 16:50 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: sure, I just think that last tends to be more useful than folks reckon and making it optional will introduce inconsistency where Cinder always includes it and NOva doesn't because it's optional | 16:50 |
| etoews | i think we can just workflow+1 https://review.openstack.org/#/c/411391/ | 16:50 |
| sigmavirus | I don't know that we want to allow that kind of problem | 16:50 |
| sigmavirus | We could just not recommend "last" at all | 16:50 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: sure, but the reason for paginating in the first place is not having to pull large amounts of data | 16:51 |
| cdent | etoews: go for it | 16:51 |
| stevelle | I think it is helpful to offer explicit stretch goals, like last, but it has to be clear there is no expectation. For those that opt in, it lets them standardize which is helpful. | 16:51 |
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| edleafe | stevelle: that's pretty much what I feel | 16:51 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: agreed. I just feel like there are absolutely ways around pulling large amounts of data to provide "last" | 16:51 |
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| stevelle | using the right data structures, ^ | 16:52 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: sure, but with a million records, it can be tough to find the one that's 30 from the end :) | 16:52 |
| etoews | cdent: ermmmm...apparently i can't workflow+1 anymore... | 16:53 |
| edleafe | ...and do that with every hit on the link | 16:53 |
| edleafe | etoews: need +2s first? | 16:53 |
| elmiko | etoews: +1 on wf for that | 16:53 |
| etoews | i can't even +2 :P | 16:54 |
| sigmavirus | edleafe: yeah I think if you're only considering pulling it from the database dynamically every time, you'll always have terrible API performance around your pagination | 16:54 |
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| cdent | etoews: are you logged in as your usual person? | 16:54 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: and if you're not pulling it every time, it will be stale and pretty much useless | 16:54 |
| cdent | edleafe: that's categorically not true | 16:55 |
| sigmavirus | I disagree strongly, but we have 3 conversations happening right now | 16:55 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: if you want, I can post an update that adds language around last | 16:55 |
| cdent | but openstack has little experience with effective caching and caching namespaces | 16:55 |
| etoews | cdent: oops. guess not. | 16:55 |
| sigmavirus | I guess large non-OpenStack APIs that do Last consistently and correctly and usefully are just wrong | 16:55 |
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| sigmavirus | (or they don't exist and I'm imagining having worked on them) | 16:55 |
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| cdent | so I would _love_ to have a discussion about how openstack is out of date in the api world, but let's leave that for another time please as we only have a few more minutes left | 16:56 |
| edleafe | sigmavirus: like I said, it depends on how stale they are | 16:56 |
| elmiko | cdent: LOL | 16:56 |
| cdent | are there other things to contend about on the other reviews? | 16:56 |
| cdent | things we know need to happen: more review on ed's strawmen for booleans and state | 16:56 |
| cdent | more eyes on the capabiities review because it is being driven by nova and cinder right now and they are not the whole world | 16:57 |
| cdent | and further discussion on the pagination thing so we can reach some consensus | 16:57 |
| cdent | anything else? | 16:57 |
| cdent | #topic bug review | 16:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "bug review (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:57 | |
| cdent | There is a new bug that came along today as a result of a keystone bug. | 16:58 |
| cdent | #link 400 on bad query params: https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-api-wg/+bug/1654084 | 16:58 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1654084 in openstack-api-wg "Listing resources with invalid filters should result in a 400" [Medium,Confirmed] | 16:58 |
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| cdent | we have guidance on that issue for bodies, but not that easy to find on query params. that bug says we shoudl | 16:58 |
| cdent | somebody want to volunteer for that? | 16:58 |
| cdent | if so, assign yourself to the bug | 16:59 |
| * edleafe takes it | 16:59 | |
| cdent | any one eager on the newletter or shall I do it? | 16:59 |
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| cdent | Thanks to everyone for coming today, I think we've actually set some good foundation for stuff that matters for the coming year, based on the things we've disagreed about today. | 17:00 |
| cdent | that's good | 17:00 |
| cdent | so | 17:00 |
| cdent | awesome | 17:00 |
| cdent | #endmeeting | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Jan 5 17:00:16 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2017/api_wg.2017-01-05-16.00.html | 17:00 |
| elmiko | thanks all | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2017/api_wg.2017-01-05-16.00.txt | 17:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2017/api_wg.2017-01-05-16.00.log.html | 17:00 |
| cdent | more in #openstack-sdks for anyone who wants to continue | 17:00 |
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| etoews | thx! | 17:01 |
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| tbachman | FYI for folks attending the group-based-policy IRC meeting — we will be starting a few minutes late. Stay tuned. | 18:01 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: rkukura songole: hi | 18:07 |
| rkukura | hi | 18:08 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: hi! | 18:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | sorry i am late | 18:08 |
| songole | hi | 18:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #startmeeting networking_policy | 18:08 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Jan 5 18:08:14 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SumitNaiksatam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:08 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:08 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_policy' | 18:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | happy 2017 to all! | 18:08 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: likewise! | 18:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | lets starting on the happy note of pending patches | 18:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Pending Patches | 18:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Pending Patches (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:08 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/416527/ | 18:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | “Set project when doing neutron DB migrations" | 18:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | (i am picking up the patches which are not driver or nfp-specific" | 18:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ) | 18:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | anyone seen this one? | 18:10 |
| SumitNaiksatam | as long as all that this is doing is pointing to the neutron conf directories i am good with that | 18:10 |
| SumitNaiksatam | it didnt seem to break our integration job, so i think this should be good | 18:10 |
| SumitNaiksatam | any objections to the above? | 18:11 |
| rkukura | makes sense to me, I guess, but I don’t claim to know the config internals | 18:11 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: same here, hence wanted to check with the team :-) | 18:12 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i will +2 | 18:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | next, “neutron-lib: use L3 constant from neutron-lib” - #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/414976/ | 18:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | my feeling on this (and the one we will pick after this) is that we need to do the newton refactor first before we can get to this | 18:13 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: I +2/+A’d the config patch. Does that one need back-porting? | 18:13 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: yes, it would | 18:13 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: thanks | 18:13 |
| SumitNaiksatam | the integration jobs fail on this presumably because we are still on mitaka, and it doesnt go well with the use of the neutron-lib | 18:14 |
| rkukura | I do think we should use neutron_lib, at least as far as it exists in mitaka | 18:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: okay, i just checked, it seems that it exists in mitaka | 18:15 |
| songole | neutron-lib is available in mitaka itself I suppose | 18:15 |
| rkukura | Its evolved since, but I think the changes in this patch only depend on what’s in it in mitaka, or else UTs would file, right? | 18:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | okahy my bad | 18:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | we are already using neutron_lib | 18:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | yeah my bad | 18:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so need to go back and look at this patch as to why this is failing | 18:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | next one - “Change passing session to context in segments db functions” - #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/400811/ | 18:17 |
| rkukura | How do you get a context when you don’t have one? | 18:18 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i dont think this is a mitaka compatible change | 18:18 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: create one? | 18:19 |
| rkukura | sure | 18:19 |
| rkukura | Actually, this patch is just for one function call, not a general change | 18:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | oh you mean, here where the change is made | 18:19 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | the last i checked, the changed behavior that is being referred to in this patch, is in neutron newton | 18:20 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: So this release_network_segments signature changed post-mitaka? | 18:20 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: thats what i recall, but need to double check | 18:21 |
| rkukura | ok | 18:21 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Any idea what this enginefacade change was, and whether we should be using context instead of session in more places (our own DB layets, etc.)? | 18:22 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: #link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/commit/df7e36c8c8b894ff385e0404b30698f7cb2a2ffb | 18:23 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: i think Anna had sent out an email, and there are some pointers in that email, but i dont recall enough to summarize here | 18:23 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: so confirmed, in mitaka its still the old signature #link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/stable/mitaka/neutron/plugins/ml2/managers.py#L254 | 18:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and that would explain the failed UTs | 18:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so unfortunately, this patch would have to wait until the newton catch up (which will hopefully happen soon) | 18:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | any other patches we need to discuss? | 18:25 |
| rkukura | right - we need this patch when we support newton, but I’m more concerned about whether we should be passing context everywhere we pass session right now | 18:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: sure, we would need to evaluate that | 18:26 |
| rkukura | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/enginefacade-switch | 18:26 |
| SumitNaiksatam | actually this signature exists in newton as well: #link https://github.com/openstack/neutron/blob/stable/newton/neutron/plugins/ml2/managers.py | 18:26 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so this is a Ocata feature | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: thanks | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i think Anna posted this change on the master branches of different projects assuming they are all on Ocata | 18:27 |
| rkukura | it looks like it was addressed in OSLO in kilo | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: okay | 18:28 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: anything at your end we need to look at? | 18:28 |
| songole | SumitNaiksatam: are you referring to this Enginefacade? | 18:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: no, NFP | 18:29 |
| songole | SumitNaiksatam: no outstanding patches | 18:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: oh cool | 18:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | okay, so if no one has anything else, lets wrap a little early today | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura and I have another meeting to catch | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | thanks all for joining, and happy new year again! | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | bye! | 18:30 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: bye! | 18:30 |
| songole | bye | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #endmeeting | 18:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:31 | |
| rkukura | thanks SumitNaiksatam! | 18:31 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Jan 5 18:31:00 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:31 |
| rkukura | bue | 18:31 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2017/networking_policy.2017-01-05-18.08.html | 18:31 |
| rkukura | bye | 18:31 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2017/networking_policy.2017-01-05-18.08.txt | 18:31 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2017/networking_policy.2017-01-05-18.08.log.html | 18:31 |
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