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| ttx | o/ | 14:01 |
|---|---|---|
| genekuo | o/ | 14:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting large_scale_sig | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 18 14:01:26 2020 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: large_scale_sig)" | 14:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'large_scale_sig' | 14:01 |
| ttx | #topic Rollcall | 14:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Rollcall (Meeting topic: large_scale_sig)" | 14:01 | |
| ttx | Who is here for the Large Scale SIG meeting ? | 14:01 |
| belmoreira | o/ | 14:01 |
| genekuo | o/ | 14:01 |
| ttx | amorin: ? | 14:01 |
| ttx | mdelavergne: ? | 14:01 |
| mdelavergne | Hi! | 14:02 |
| amorin | hey! | 14:02 |
| amorin | I am here! | 14:02 |
| amorin | thanks for ping :) | 14:02 |
| ttx | perfect, let's get started | 14:02 |
| ttx | Our agenda for today is at: | 14:02 |
| ttx | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/large-scale-sig-meeting | 14:02 |
| ttx | #topic PTG/Summit postmortem | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "PTG/Summit postmortem (Meeting topic: large_scale_sig)" | 14:02 | |
| ttx | A few weeks ago we had our Forum and PTG activities, and I'd like to discuss how successful that was | 14:03 |
| ttx | My view on it is that the Forum session was a success with new people sharing experience | 14:03 |
| ttx | The two PTG meetings were not as successful with only a couple of people showing up | 14:03 |
| ttx | What do people think? | 14:03 |
| ttx | Personally, I think that means we need to separate SIG activities (the inner circle) from the sharing of experience (outer circle) | 14:04 |
| genekuo | Yeah, I think summit have more operators attending | 14:04 |
| ttx | as it's a lot easier to get people to show up when you ask a specific question, than askign people to join a SIG meeting | 14:04 |
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| genekuo | agree | 14:05 |
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| ttx | For reference here is the link to the Forum and PTG etherpads: | 14:05 |
| ttx | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/vSummit2020_OpenStackScalingStory | 14:05 |
| ttx | #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/wallaby-ptg-largescale-sig | 14:05 |
| belmoreira | ttx if I remember well I didn't attend the PTG sessions because the timeslot | 14:05 |
| ttx | amorin, mdelavergne what did you think | 14:05 |
| ttx | belmoreira: our hope was that some of the people from the week before would show up | 14:05 |
| amorin | I really enjoy the summit part, with a lot of operator giving feedbacks | 14:06 |
| ttx | but i think that was misguided | 14:06 |
| amorin | unfortunately I was not avaible for PTG, so I miss that | 14:06 |
| mdelavergne | nothing much, sorry I was really occupied these last few weeks, I missed a lot :( | 14:06 |
| amorin | anyway, I have the feeling that operators have things to say | 14:06 |
| amorin | I dont know how we can imply them more in our meetings | 14:07 |
| ttx | I've been giving it some thought | 14:07 |
| amorin | you want to split the group in 2 parts? | 14:07 |
| ttx | and we discussed that with genekuo at the PTG sessions | 14:07 |
| belmoreira | ttx, true. But for some reason we see europeans participating more in these meetings and if I recall correctly it was at the beginning and end of the day. For example for me was impossible to attend | 14:07 |
| genekuo | I think we've discussed with collaborating with OpsMeetup during PTG | 14:07 |
| ttx | amorin: I think expecting people to join the SIG meeting and share their experience is not going to happen | 14:07 |
| ttx | We need to use other types of exceptional events to raise the questions we careabout and get the feedback we need | 14:08 |
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| ttx | But that will be the topic for the next meeting | 14:08 |
| ttx | as we have lots to cover today | 14:08 |
| amorin | ack | 14:08 |
| ttx | but yes, homework before next meeting will be to think about how we can more efficiently collect feedback | 14:08 |
| belmoreira | ttx I'm just trying to understand why, maybe, the PTG sessions didn't have a wider participation | 14:08 |
| ttx | belmoreira: yes that explains why the regulars did not show up, but not why the expected new people did not show up either :) | 14:09 |
| ttx | #topic Wallaby setup | 14:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Wallaby setup (Meeting topic: large_scale_sig)" | 14:09 | |
| ttx | So as we start a new cycle I'd like to discuss three things: | 14:09 |
| ttx | meeting frequency, update co-chairs, and organization of workstreams | 14:10 |
| ttx | Regarding meeting frequency, during the PTG we discussed moving back to a single biweekly meeting | 14:10 |
| ttx | It seems our experience with rotating meeting times resulted in spreading out the team without getting regular new members | 14:10 |
| ttx | So I ran a poll and we arrived at that 14utc slot | 14:10 |
| ttx | We might push it back one hour to 15utc to be more friendly to imtiaz (15utc was a popular time in the survey too) | 14:10 |
| amorin | ok for me | 14:11 |
| ttx | (he wanted to join today but said 6am was a little early) | 14:11 |
| belmoreira | I'm OK with both slots | 14:11 |
| genekuo | I'm ok, even a bit later at 16 utc | 14:11 |
| amorin | same here, 16utc is my last slot | 14:11 |
| belmoreira | uh... 16 UTC can be more difficult for me | 14:11 |
| ttx | Let's try 15utc. I don;t want to over-adapt around someone that has not attended any meeting yet | 14:11 |
| genekuo | no problem | 14:12 |
| mdelavergne | 15 or 16 is fine by me | 14:12 |
| ttx | Regarding co-chairs, I'd like to update the list since we have not seen Pengju Jiao recently | 14:12 |
| ttx | Anyone interested? the role is about helping keeping track of workstream status and (when I'm not available) help chairing meetings | 14:12 |
| ttx | belmoreira: interested in continuing? | 14:12 |
| ttx | anyone else ? | 14:12 |
| belmoreira | sure | 14:12 |
| genekuo | I'm ok | 14:12 |
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| genekuo | to help out | 14:13 |
| ttx | genekuo: ok to be chair or ok not to be chair? :) | 14:13 |
| ttx | ok to be chair, that works | 14:13 |
| genekuo | ok to be co-chiar | 14:13 |
| ttx | the more the merrier | 14:13 |
| genekuo | *chair | 14:13 |
| ttx | I'll update and replace Pengju Jiao with Gene Kuo | 14:13 |
| ttx | Now... Regarding organization of workstreams | 14:13 |
| ttx | #topic Reorganize work into a scaling journey | 14:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Reorganize work into a scaling journey (Meeting topic: large_scale_sig)" | 14:14 | |
| ttx | During PTG with genekuo we discussed reorganizing our goals into more of a scaling journey | 14:14 |
| ttx | Like as you scale up, you: | 14:14 |
| ttx | 1. configure/optimize your single cluster to handle additional load | 14:14 |
| ttx | 2. monitor your cluster to detect strain/limits | 14:14 |
| ttx | 3. scale up until you reach limits | 14:14 |
| ttx | 4. scale out to multiple clusters/regions/cells once you reach limits | 14:14 |
| ttx | And our work is essentially about helping people throughout that journey | 14:15 |
| ttx | So for (1) we work on documenting configuration options for large scale | 14:15 |
| ttx | For (2) we work on oslo.metrics and other meaningful monitoring solutions | 14:15 |
| ttx | For (3) we identify and push back low-hanging fruit limits scaling within one cluster | 14:15 |
| ttx | (That can include documenting how to properly shard a RabbitMQ install, for example) | 14:15 |
| ttx | and finally for (4) we explain the various options and how to do it | 14:16 |
| ttx | I feel like that makes our purpose a lot clearer. It's just about helping people at various stages of this journey. | 14:16 |
| ttx | And it does not have to be complete or anything. Every bit helps. | 14:16 |
| ttx | Does that make sense to you? | 14:16 |
| amorin | yes | 14:16 |
| belmoreira | yes, I like the idea | 14:16 |
| genekuo | yep | 14:16 |
| ttx | it's a lot less abstract than setting artifical "goals" imho, and also less intimidating | 14:17 |
| ttx | In terms of output format, I was thinking we could use a FAQ format. That way we can list common questions, and provide/improve answers when we have them | 14:17 |
| ttx | FAQs have two interesting properties: | 14:17 |
| ttx | - Listing questions is as important as listing answers | 14:17 |
| ttx | - It's OK if the FAQ is constantly work in progress | 14:18 |
| ttx | so again, less intimidating than a doc or a white paper that has to be "finished" | 14:18 |
| ttx | How does that sound? | 14:18 |
| mdelavergne | yep, good idea | 14:18 |
| amorin | faq on wiki for example? | 14:18 |
| amorin | or directly in documentation? | 14:18 |
| genekuo | Yes, it's easier to answer questions than to write a document from scratch | 14:18 |
| belmoreira | +1 | 14:18 |
| ttx | yes, I was thinking refactoring the wiki to describe the journey | 14:18 |
| amorin | I'd like to have it in doc directly | 14:18 |
| genekuo | Agree with doc | 14:19 |
| ttx | it can still point to doc artifacts | 14:19 |
| amorin | usually, operators are looking at config options, deployments etc | 14:19 |
| genekuo | I rarely refer to wiki for OpenStack stuffs | 14:19 |
| amorin | if we have a page over there, it could be nice IMHO | 14:19 |
| amorin | genekuo same here | 14:19 |
| ttx | Like obviously, oslo.metrics will not live in a FAQ, it will be a proper software library | 14:19 |
| ttx | same for documenting options | 14:19 |
| amorin | yup | 14:19 |
| ttx | But the main artifact of our group should be this set of wiki pages (at least for now) | 14:20 |
| ttx | that describe the journey and answer questions | 14:20 |
| mdelavergne | wherever this is put, we can still link it from the other anyway ? | 14:20 |
| ttx | pointing to other materials | 14:20 |
| amorin | ok for me | 14:20 |
| genekuo | sounds good | 14:20 |
| ttx | Like one question could be "my database is getting quite large with stale entries, what should I do about it" and point to OSarchiver | 14:21 |
| amorin | :) | 14:21 |
| ttx | personally I have a lot more questions than answers, so I like a format that lets me ask them, even if for now we don;t have all the answers | 14:21 |
| ttx | OK if that sounds good, I can work on refactoring our wiki docs | 14:22 |
| genekuo | good starting point :) | 14:22 |
| ttx | #action ttx to refactor wiki and other etherpads into that "journey" FAQ view | 14:22 |
| mdelavergne | yep, at some point somebody will have the answer and add it, hopefuly | 14:22 |
| ttx | I'll replace all our etherpads with a single one that tracks what the SIG is actively working on | 14:23 |
| ttx | (rather than one per stream) | 14:23 |
| genekuo | agreed, we have a lot of scattered pages, better reorganize or link them in one page | 14:23 |
| ttx | Any other suggestion on how we should reorganize how we work? | 14:23 |
| genekuo | :) | 14:24 |
| ttx | ok moving on to next topic | 14:24 |
| ttx | #topic The road to oslo.metrics 1.0 | 14:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "The road to oslo.metrics 1.0 (Meeting topic: large_scale_sig)" | 14:24 | |
| ttx | So one objective we have for the Wallaby cycle (so between now and April 2021) is to get to a proper oslo.metrics release | 14:24 |
| ttx | Before our first 0.1 release we should have: | 14:25 |
| ttx | - Basic tests (https://review.opendev.org/#/c/755069/) | 14:25 |
| ttx | - Latest metrics code (?) | 14:25 |
| ttx | Then before the end of the Wallaby cycle we should have: | 14:25 |
| ttx | - oslo-messaging metrics code (https://review.opendev.org/#/c/761848/) | 14:25 |
| ttx | - Enable bandit (issue to fix with predictable path for metrics socket ?) | 14:25 |
| ttx | - Improve tests to get closer to 100% coverage | 14:25 |
| ttx | genekuo: anything I missed? | 14:25 |
| genekuo | ttx: I basically have the latest main code merged in the last commit | 14:26 |
| genekuo | THe rest of them are mostly additional metrics which I would like to add after 0.1 release | 14:26 |
| ttx | genekuo: with the socket patch? | 14:26 |
| genekuo | Yep | 14:26 |
| ttx | ah ok | 14:26 |
| ttx | So we could merge the basic tests | 14:26 |
| ttx | and then do a 0.1 release that you can start using in oslo.messaging | 14:27 |
| genekuo | Ah, I should have another patch handling sigterm, but it shouldn't affect the test | 14:27 |
| genekuo | Let me update it later this week | 14:27 |
| genekuo | Yes, thanks! | 14:27 |
| ttx | genekuo: genekuo I'll add you to oslo-metrics-core so you can +2 my patch | 14:28 |
| genekuo | OK | 14:28 |
| ttx | ok you should be able to +2a now | 14:28 |
| ttx | if you reload the page | 14:28 |
| ttx | then I'll check what it takes to do a 0.1 release | 14:28 |
| genekuo | thank you | 14:29 |
| ttx | #action genekuo to review/approve https://review.opendev.org/#/c/755069/ | 14:29 |
| ttx | #action ttx to set up release jobs and request a 0.1 release | 14:29 |
| ttx | That should keep us busy between now and next meeting | 14:30 |
| ttx | #topic Next meeting | 14:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Next meeting (Meeting topic: large_scale_sig)" | 14:30 | |
| ttx | So our next meeting should be December 2. | 14:30 |
| ttx | We'll do 15utc, one hour later compared to today, in this channel if it's available | 14:30 |
| ttx | #action ttx to reschedule meeting to be biweekly on Wednesdays, 15utc | 14:30 |
| amorin | there is a chance that I will not be available | 14:31 |
| ttx | I'd rather keep that meeting date that way we can do the next one on Dec 16 | 14:31 |
| ttx | then skip for holidays | 14:31 |
| ttx | and be back on January 13 | 14:32 |
| genekuo | I'm ok with the timeline | 14:32 |
| ttx | is there anythig else we can make progress on between now and next meeting? | 14:33 |
| ttx | amorin: was there any progress on the OSops/OSarchiver side? | 14:33 |
| amorin | nop, was not able to find time for this | 14:34 |
| ttx | I suspect recent weeks at OVHCloud have been kind of busy | 14:34 |
| amorin | yes :) | 14:34 |
| ttx | OK anything else, anyone? | 14:35 |
| ttx | oh, I should write an action item for the homework | 14:35 |
| ttx | #action all to think about how to improve how we collect feedback | 14:36 |
| ttx | since that was not a stellar success during the Victoria cycle... | 14:36 |
| ttx | Since we have a few more minutes, I'll talk about what we discussed in the PTG sessions | 14:36 |
| ttx | The suggestion there was to make those feedback sessions more "exceptional" than a stabnding etherpad open for comments | 14:37 |
| ttx | Like we've had those etherpads like the scaling-stories etherpad open, with calls on the mailing-list for people to add experience to it | 14:37 |
| ttx | that's just not working | 14:37 |
| ttx | But when we create a session about "sharing your scaling story" at an ops meetup or a Forum, people come | 14:38 |
| ttx | so basically, making it an event, and focusing it on one question | 14:38 |
| genekuo | agree | 14:39 |
| mdelavergne | should it be written or audio ? | 14:39 |
| ttx | Could be just piggybacking on existing events, every time they happen... or maybe create our own "event" | 14:39 |
| ttx | like a monthly "question to operators" session on Zoom or whatever | 14:39 |
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| amorin | audio/video is really nice in my opinion | 14:40 |
| ttx | I think IRC is very efficient for work group meeting as it's minutes are recorded and you can easily take #actions and such | 14:40 |
| ttx | But not for ops sharing experiences | 14:40 |
| ttx | for that audio/video seems to be a plus, or in-person | 14:41 |
| ttx | More work for us to extract learnings from that, but that's better than no feedback at all | 14:41 |
| belmoreira | if we keep this session (maybe more than one slot) in the forum it's a good start | 14:41 |
| belmoreira | also, a ops event... (not sure if the ops team is organizing something virtual) | 14:42 |
| ttx | Yes, obviously we should make sure we leverage future forums. But once every 6 month might not be enough :) | 14:42 |
| ttx | So that's the general idea I had, but you can noodle on it for two weeks and we'll dsicuss it again on Dec 2 | 14:42 |
| genekuo | I also vote for collaborating with ops event | 14:43 |
| ttx | Also, make the SIG group more comfortable for existing attendees, rather than jump through hoops for hypothetical new members | 14:43 |
| ttx | thag means obviously creating an inner circle and an outer circle, but that's what we have anyway, the regulars and the others | 14:43 |
| ttx | Yes we should track what the ops meetups group is giong to do next | 14:44 |
| ttx | Alright, that is all I had for today. Anything else we should be doing ? | 14:44 |
| genekuo | ttx: do ops meetup have regular irc meeting? | 14:45 |
| ttx | let me see | 14:45 |
| genekuo | would like to join if possible | 14:45 |
| imtiazc | Sorry for joining a bit late despite my best intentions to wake up earlier. Do we have a Zoom session as well for this meeting? | 14:45 |
| ttx | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/#OpenStack_Ops_Meetup_Team | 14:45 |
| ttx | imtiazc: no only IRC, makes it easier to write minutes :) | 14:45 |
| genekuo | thanks ttx | 14:46 |
| ttx | imtiazc: thanks for joining, we agreed to move one hour later for the next meeting | 14:46 |
| ttx | So December 2, 15utc | 14:46 |
| imtiazc | Thank you @ttx | 14:46 |
| ttx | I'll post the summary and logs for this meeting | 14:46 |
| ttx | imtiazc: we have a few minutes left, maybe you can introduce yourself? | 14:46 |
| ttx | Then we will | 14:46 |
| genekuo | :) | 14:47 |
| ttx | or maybe we can all introduce ourselves at the same time | 14:48 |
| imtiazc | Sure, this is Imtiaz Chowdhury, Cloud Architect from Workday. At Workday, we have been deploying OpenStack based private clouds for 7 years. | 14:48 |
| genekuo | Hi! | 14:48 |
| ttx | I'm Thierry Carrez, VP Engineering at the now Open Infrastructure Foundation. I'm helping drive this group because I have an interest in getting large users to contribute their experience running openstack, and receive lots of questions from users that worry about the scaling journey and would very much like that we have great answers to that | 14:50 |
| ttx | So even if I don;t have any answers, I help greasing the wheels of the group | 14:50 |
| genekuo | I'm Gene Kuo, working at LINE as Infrastructure engineer. Our team have been developing and operating OpenStack based private clouds to run our services. | 14:50 |
| amorin | I am Arnaud Morin, from OVHCloud, we are running OpenStack to provide a public cloud | 14:50 |
| amorin | I am involved in the team which deploy and manage the infrastructure | 14:51 |
| mdelavergne | Hi, I'm Marie Delavergne, phd student for Inria and I work on scaling OpenStack in different ways :) | 14:51 |
| belmoreira | I'm Belmiro Moreira. I work at CERN as Cloud Engineer | 14:51 |
| ttx | imtiazc: I invite you to read the logs of this meeting, should give you a lot of insights on how we plan to reorganize work of the group for the Wallaby cycle | 14:53 |
| ttx | and we'll talk again in two weeks | 14:53 |
| ttx | Anything else before we close, anyone? | 14:53 |
| genekuo | Nope :) | 14:54 |
| ttx | Alright then... thanks! | 14:54 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 14:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 14:54 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 18 14:54:15 2020 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:54 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_scale_sig/2020/large_scale_sig.2020-11-18-14.01.html | 14:54 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_scale_sig/2020/large_scale_sig.2020-11-18-14.01.txt | 14:54 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/large_scale_sig/2020/large_scale_sig.2020-11-18-14.01.log.html | 14:54 |
| mdelavergne | thanks everyone, see you! | 14:54 |
| ttx | imtiazc: link to log ^ | 14:54 |
| ttx | I'll send a summary to the list as always | 14:54 |
| genekuo | Thanks! | 14:55 |
| imtiazc | Thanks! Nice to meet everyone! | 14:55 |
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