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carimura | Howdy. | 19:00 |
---|---|---|
kgriffs | Hey | 19:01 |
kgriffs | #startmeeting marconi | 19:01 |
openstack | Meeting started Thu Feb 7 19:01:50 2013 UTC. The chair is kgriffs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 19:01 | |
openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'marconi' | 19:01 |
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kgriffs | #topic API | 19:02 |
*** openstack changes topic to "API (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 19:02 | |
kgriffs | So, as I mentioned in the meeting agenda email, I spent a lot of time cleaning up and simplifying the API spec based on feedback from the community as well as from some Rackspace folks. | 19:03 |
kgriffs | It's by no means final, but I wanted to get everyone's feedback on the draft as it now stands. | 19:03 |
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kgriffs | http://wiki.openstack.org/marconi/specs/api/v1 | 19:04 |
kgriffs | Anyone have something specific they want to bring up? | 19:04 |
treeder | reading... | 19:04 |
flaper87 | o/ | 19:04 |
flaper87 | so, the api looks good so far | 19:05 |
flaper87 | what I was wondering is whether we're planning to support just http requests or also add support for other channels like zmq (for example)? (might be a bit too early to talk about this but it would help us to define the api in a more consistent way) | 19:06 |
wkharold | agree, might help if resources were identified explicitly | 19:06 |
flaper87 | I was wondering that because other channels might be faster for some cases | 19:06 |
flaper87 | and would help to improve performance | 19:06 |
kgriffs | There's been a little bit of talk about doing web sockets or something, but I think it makes sense to consider the broader question of other protocols. | 19:08 |
kgriffs | Scaling out can get tricky with persistent connections, but it can be done. | 19:08 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: indeed it can but, considering that we're defining it right now, it might be worth it to design it more pluggable from the beggining. I've no objections so far and I think it can be "translated" to something else easily | 19:10 |
treeder | kgriffs: should we go through the spec function by function? | 19:10 |
flaper87 | I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with the api so far but I would definitely create a more pluggable architecture | 19:10 |
kgriffs | Agreed. In fact, I've alluded to that in the spec (scroll to the bottom): | 19:11 |
kgriffs | http://wiki.openstack.org/marconi/specs/grizzly | 19:11 |
treeder | flaper87: are you suggesting to not use http? | 19:12 |
kgriffs | However, I hadn't considered making the protocol itself pluggable. That's something that could be done without too much trouble. | 19:12 |
flaper87 | treeder: not at all, I'm suggesting to use http and other channels | 19:12 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: agreed! | 19:12 |
kgriffs | #action kgriffs to update spec/architecture plan to allow more than just HTTP | 19:14 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: feel free to add me in that action as well | 19:14 |
kgriffs | Cool, thx. | 19:14 |
kgriffs | #action flaper87 to update spec/architecture plan to accommodate persistent transports such as ZMQ | 19:15 |
kgriffs | OK, getting back to the API | 19:15 |
kgriffs | #topic API - Media Types | 19:16 |
*** openstack changes topic to "API - Media Types (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 19:16 | |
treeder | be nice if we could comment right in the wiki | 19:16 |
kgriffs | yeah | 19:16 |
kgriffs | I could try to paste it into etherpad | 19:17 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: +1 | 19:17 |
kgriffs | https://etherpad.openstack.org/queuing-api | 19:18 |
kgriffs | So, the eternal debate: XML, JSON | 19:18 |
kgriffs | Does 1.0 need to support XML? | 19:19 |
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* flaper87 loves JSON and hates xml | 19:19 | |
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treeder | json +10 | 19:19 |
wkharold | flaper87: +1 | 19:19 |
* kgriffs senses mild enthusiasm for JSON | 19:20 | |
treeder | kgriffs: would there be any particular reason to support it? | 19:20 |
flaper87 | I would say we should got step-by-step and add first one of those (and by one of those I mean JSON) and think about creating a more consistent api | 19:20 |
flaper87 | then we would be able to add support for other stuff like xml, msgpack or whatsoever | 19:20 |
kgriffs | Agreed. | 19:21 |
treeder | agreed | 19:21 |
wkharold | #agreed | 19:21 |
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kgriffs | There was a push at the last summit to get better XML support (some projects don't offer it at all, or are buggy). However, the argument was that enterprises have these expensive appliances they've invested in that only do XML. | 19:22 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: makes sense | 19:22 |
kgriffs | That being said, there's the argument for using a translator that takes in JSON and spits out XML. | 19:22 |
kgriffs | (ala Atom Nuke) | 19:23 |
kgriffs | Of course, I think it's OK to not target large enterprise with 1.0 | 19:23 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: hehe | 19:23 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: translators could make sense, even though I'm afraid there'll be a real pain in the *** | 19:24 |
flaper87 | anywho | 19:24 |
kgriffs | OK | 19:24 |
kgriffs | #agreed Start with JSON, add other media types later | 19:24 |
kgriffs | So, if you guys want to comment directly in etherpad and I can bubble those up as discussion topics, we can keep moving. | 19:25 |
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treeder | ok | 19:25 |
kgriffs | (or just post on IRC) | 19:25 |
treeder | i'm going to go through each function | 19:25 |
cppcabrera | (I'm taking notes of the meeting. I can distribute them afterwards to those interested.) | 19:25 |
kgriffs | Sounds good | 19:25 |
treeder | i think that'll be most productive | 19:25 |
treeder | Create a qudeue | 19:26 |
treeder | queue | 19:26 |
treeder | I think that looks fine as is | 19:26 |
kgriffs | cppcabrera: Thx. meetbot does that too, but it would be good to compare notes. | 19:26 |
flaper87 | +1 | 19:26 |
treeder | cool | 19:26 |
treeder | Alright, Reconfigure a queue | 19:26 |
kgriffs | OK. I didn't have any other config other than TTL at the moment. | 19:27 |
treeder | I think this could just be changed to the parameters themselves | 19:27 |
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treeder | instead of having ops, how about just if "ttl" is specified, then it changes the ttl? | 19:27 |
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treeder | same as creating a queue | 19:27 |
kgriffs | If/when more options are available, I think we want standard JSON-Patch support. However, we can just allow all-or-nothing to start with. | 19:28 |
kgriffs | "op" is from the JSON Patch RFC | 19:28 |
treeder | oh | 19:28 |
treeder | does that mean one op per request though? | 19:28 |
kgriffs | no, I messed that up. It's supposed to be inside an array | 19:29 |
treeder | http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pbryan-json-patch-04 | 19:30 |
kgriffs | yep. It's actually on revision 10 now | 19:30 |
kgriffs | https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-json-patch-10 | 19:30 |
wkharold | is PATCH supported in the relevant HTTP servers? | 19:31 |
kgriffs | There was some talk about doing xml-patch as well, but not sure where that ended up | 19:31 |
kgriffs | Do you have one in mind? | 19:31 |
kgriffs | (server) | 19:31 |
treeder | probably the bigger problem is client libs supporting it | 19:32 |
wkharold | The usual suspects, Apache, etc | 19:32 |
kgriffs | oic | 19:32 |
kgriffs | Just wanted to make sure you weren't talking about IIS. :p | 19:32 |
flaper87 | hahahaha | 19:32 |
wkharold | blech | 19:32 |
treeder | hehe | 19:32 |
* flaper87 takes his shotgun | 19:32 | |
kgriffs | Does anyone know about Apache and Nginx off the top of their heads. | 19:32 |
flaper87 | cherokee ? | 19:33 |
wkharold | nope, hence the query | 19:33 |
kgriffs | Anyone want to volunteer to survey PATCH support? | 19:34 |
wkharold | I guess I should step up | 19:34 |
kgriffs | cool. | 19:34 |
flaper87 | wkharold: thx | 19:34 |
treeder | wkharold: bet you wish you didn't ask that question huh? ;) | 19:35 |
kgriffs | #action wkharold to check PATCH support in Apache, Nginx, Cherokee, etc. | 19:35 |
wkharold | someday I'll learn | 19:35 |
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treeder | regarding json patch vs just a straight json object (same as PUT), i'd vote for straight up json object. | 19:36 |
treeder | much simpler | 19:36 |
kgriffs | wkharold: if you could send out an email to openstack-dev [marconi] with the results, or share in the next meeting that would be groovy. | 19:36 |
flaper87 | treeder: +1 | 19:36 |
kgriffs | Agreed, as long as the document isn't complex | 19:36 |
wkharold | treeder: modulo the size of the json | 19:36 |
treeder | i don't think we'll have any complex documents in this spec | 19:36 |
flaper87 | that would make everything more consistent | 19:37 |
cppcabrera | kgriffs: Does the marconi project have a Trello board or something similar yet? This thought struck me as action items are being detailed. | 19:37 |
kgriffs | #agreed for simple document updates, don't use PATCH | 19:37 |
* flaper87 is a big fan of consistency | 19:37 | |
kgriffs | cppcabrera: Not a public one, but that can be easily remedied. | 19:37 |
* treeder is a big fan of consistency too | 19:37 | |
treeder | trello board: +1 | 19:38 |
flaper87 | trello board ++ | 19:38 |
kgriffs | #action cppcabrera to hook us up with a public trello board | 19:39 |
kgriffs | Looks like we have a volunteer. :D | 19:39 |
cppcabrera | Will do. I'll start adding action items to it during the course of the meeting. :) | 19:39 |
treeder | awesome | 19:39 |
kgriffs | cppcabrera: At the end of the meeting, meetbot will summarize actions, but it would be good to watch for anything we miss | 19:40 |
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cppcabrera | done - https://trello.com/board/openstack-marconi/511403287d138cd6200078e0 | 19:40 |
treeder | alright, done with patching a queue then? | 19:40 |
kgriffs | #topic API - Delete a Queue | 19:40 |
*** openstack changes topic to "API - Delete a Queue (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 19:40 | |
treeder | cppcabrera: can you us to the board? i'm treeder | 19:41 |
treeder | thanks | 19:41 |
cppcabrera | treeder: np | 19:41 |
treeder | delete looks good to me | 19:42 |
flaper87 | cppcabrera: flaper87 | 19:42 |
flaper87 | :) | 19:42 |
ametts-atl | cppcabrera: allanmetts | 19:42 |
flaper87 | looks good to me as well | 19:42 |
treeder | kgriffs: notice you changed reconfigure to a PUT | 19:42 |
treeder | I think the http op should still be PATCH | 19:43 |
kgriffs | #agreed Delete a Queue is OK as-is | 19:43 |
kgriffs | mmm. Not sure about that. | 19:43 |
treeder | and here's example of why | 19:43 |
treeder | let's assume there's more than one parameter | 19:43 |
treeder | ttl and x | 19:43 |
treeder | say I just want to change the ttl | 19:43 |
treeder | then I just send in the ttl | 19:44 |
treeder | { "ttl": x} | 19:44 |
treeder | if i want to change both: {"ttl":y, "x": z} | 19:44 |
kgriffs | Well, in that case I'd rather use json-patch since that's on the standards track. | 19:44 |
kgriffs | But if there are only two attributes, it seems fine to require setting the entire thing | 19:45 |
treeder | you think that'll become a used standard? | 19:45 |
kgriffs | yes | 19:45 |
flaper87 | yep | 19:45 |
treeder | rough | 19:45 |
treeder | well maybe we should use it then | 19:46 |
kgriffs | I know that there's a de-factor standard out there today to do what you describe, but eventually things will move to JSON-patch | 19:46 |
flaper87 | wait | 19:46 |
kgriffs | IMHO | 19:46 |
* flaper87 thinking | 19:46 | |
kgriffs | Although, either way it's really only a few lines of code to implement. | 19:47 |
kgriffs | #topic API - json-patch vs. implicit patch | 19:47 |
flaper87 | PATCH http method should be used for modifine *some* arguments of the document | 19:47 |
*** openstack changes topic to "API - json-patch vs. implicit patch (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 19:47 | |
flaper87 | and PUT for the whole document | 19:48 |
kgriffs | Correct. If you want to modify all of them, then it doesn't make sense. | 19:48 |
kgriffs | That's what I was saying about not needing it if there's only "ttl", for example. | 19:48 |
kgriffs | But we could always add support l8r | 19:48 |
wkharold | usually PUT updates by replacing the whole representation, even if only one thing changes | 19:48 |
kgriffs | good point. And you aren't really recreating the queue | 19:49 |
treeder | kgriffs: ya, there's high probability that more features will be added | 19:49 |
kgriffs | it's a fuzzy line. What's everyone's vote? | 19:49 |
treeder | and we'll want to keep this consistent across entire api | 19:49 |
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kgriffs | yes, and currently claiming a message is done with PATCH | 19:50 |
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flaper87 | let's vote | 19:50 |
treeder | I vote PATCH, but not sure about the json-patch | 19:50 |
kgriffs | noted | 19:50 |
flaper87 | options json-patch or straight json | 19:50 |
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wkharold | straight json, PUT complete representation | 19:51 |
cppcabrera | +1 json-patch | 19:51 |
treeder | straight json | 19:51 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: bot should handle votes | 19:51 |
flaper87 | so it is logged in the meeting report | 19:51 |
kgriffs | oic | 19:51 |
kgriffs | hmmm. Is there a hashtag for that? | 19:52 |
kgriffs | I'm not seeing it | 19:52 |
kgriffs | http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html | 19:52 |
flaper87 | #startvote JSON-PATCH? Yes, No | 19:52 |
openstack | Only the meeting chair may start a vote. | 19:52 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: :) | 19:52 |
* flaper87 shoots the stupid bot | 19:53 | |
kgriffs | cool | 19:53 |
kgriffs | Ok, let's take it one at a time - first, PATCH vs. PUt | 19:53 |
kgriffs | #startvote PATCH vs. PUT? PATCH, PUT | 19:53 |
openstack | Begin voting on: PATCH vs. PUT? Valid vote options are PATCH, PUT. | 19:53 |
openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 19:53 |
treeder | #vote PATCH | 19:53 |
flaper87 | #vote PATCH | 19:53 |
cppcabrera | #vote PATCH | 19:53 |
wkharold | #vote PUT | 19:53 |
kgriffs | #endvote | 19:54 |
openstack | Voted on "PATCH vs. PUT?" Results are | 19:54 |
openstack | PUT (1): wkharold | 19:54 |
openstack | PATCH (3): cppcabrera, treeder, flaper87 | 19:54 |
flaper87 | (perhaps we should have considered both?) | 19:54 |
flaper87 | :P | 19:54 |
treeder | wkharold: we could have PUT too | 19:54 |
wkharold | np ... I'm a good loser | 19:54 |
treeder | ahh, ya, was just thinking the same flaper87 | 19:54 |
kgriffs | #startvote Do PUT first, add PATCH later? Yes, No | 19:54 |
openstack | Begin voting on: Do PUT first, add PATCH later? Valid vote options are Yes, No. | 19:54 |
openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 19:54 |
wkharold | #vote Yes | 19:55 |
flaper87 | #vote Yes | 19:55 |
treeder | my vote for that depends on what we decide on the next vote. ;) | 19:55 |
cppcabrera | #vote Yes | 19:55 |
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kgriffs | #endvote | 19:56 |
openstack | Voted on "Do PUT first, add PATCH later?" Results are | 19:56 |
openstack | Yes (3): wkharold, cppcabrera, flaper87 | 19:56 |
kgriffs | "The PUT method requests that the state of the target resource be | 19:56 |
kgriffs | created or replaced with the state defined by the representation | 19:56 |
kgriffs | enclosed in the request message payload." | 19:56 |
* flaper87 likes IRC politics | 19:56 | |
kgriffs | http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-21#section-5.3.4 | 19:56 |
treeder | alright, that makes it easy | 19:56 |
kgriffs | I'm fine with doing PUT | 19:56 |
cppcabrera | PUT is simpler to support than PATCH - makes sense to go after it first, IMO. | 19:57 |
treeder | until we get to something else that requires modifications | 19:57 |
kgriffs | RESTafarians may disagree, but it's close enough semantically | 19:57 |
treeder | can we skip to POST Message before GET? | 19:57 |
kgriffs | #agreed PUT first, PATCH later if needed | 19:57 |
flaper87 | I stick with my vote, both should be supported. PUT first and then patch it if needed | 19:57 |
flaper87 | w00t | 19:57 |
kgriffs | You read my mind. :D | 19:57 |
kgriffs | OK, we only have time for one more topic | 19:58 |
kgriffs | #topic API - POST message | 19:58 |
*** openstack changes topic to "API - POST message (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 19:58 | |
treeder | ok | 19:58 |
treeder | ok, one thing that isn't clear to me is what body format is | 19:58 |
wkharold | #info according to http://weblog.rubyonrails.org/2012/2/25/edge-rails-patch-is-the-new-primary-http-method-for-updates most servers grok PATCH | 19:59 |
treeder | looks like it's json in the spec | 19:59 |
kgriffs | wait a sec | 19:59 |
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kgriffs | sorry, I think I forgot to hoist those up one level | 19:59 |
kgriffs | Let me try something in etherpad... | 19:59 |
treeder | I think it should be a string? | 19:59 |
treeder | ie: anything | 19:59 |
kgriffs | Oh, wait | 19:59 |
kgriffs | OK, let's talk about contents of body then we can jump back to whether "body" can be removed and the contents hoisted. | 20:00 |
flaper87 | treeder: what do you mean? I'm missing something | 20:00 |
kgriffs | So, body can be anything JSON supports | 20:00 |
kgriffs | "body": "foo" | 20:01 |
kgriffs | Guess I should add more examples | 20:01 |
flaper87 | kgriffs: mmh, not sure about that | 20:01 |
flaper87 | so | 20:01 |
flaper87 | Body content can be anything, agreed, but we should somehow "de-normalize" it to something less harmful | 20:02 |
wkharold | question, why POST to queue_name/messages why not just POST to queue_name? | 20:03 |
flaper87 | for example, what happens if the content has non-ascii characters? or other characters? | 20:03 |
flaper87 | what about having it serialized to b64 or something like that in order to *always* have a string | 20:03 |
flaper87 | or whatever | 20:03 |
kgriffs | It would have to be valid JSON, and we could enforce UTF-8 | 20:03 |
treeder | it should be a json safe string | 20:03 |
flaper87 | celery does something similar | 20:03 |
kgriffs | I anticipate doing JSON validation | 20:03 |
* flaper87 is way paranoid | 20:04 | |
kgriffs | If a client submits something bogus, they get 400 | 20:04 |
kgriffs | Storage backends can just store as an opaque string (no need to parse) | 20:04 |
cppcabrera | +1 for JSON validation | 20:04 |
flaper87 | fair enough | 20:04 |
wkharold | ditto +1 | 20:04 |
kgriffs | #agreed JSON validation required | 20:04 |
flaper87 | and, we will support compressed messages? | 20:05 |
flaper87 | maybe for the next meeting | 20:05 |
wkharold | still wondering about queue_name/messages ... | 20:05 |
kgriffs | If we ever add JSON-P support, we will have to get even more paranoid, like using the while(1) trick | 20:05 |
* flaper87 shoots json-p in the legs | 20:05 | |
treeder | seems to me that shoudl be encoded | 20:05 |
treeder | eg: | 20:05 |
wkharold | JSON-P old and broken, CORS new hotness | 20:05 |
kgriffs | #action kgriffs to Add more examples for body of messages | 20:06 |
treeder | "body": "{ | 20:06 |
treeder | \"event\": \"BackupStarted\", | 20:06 |
treeder | \"backupId\": \"c378813c-3f0b-11e2-ad92-7823d2b0f3ce\" | 20:06 |
treeder | }" | 20:06 |
treeder | could be xml, could be anything | 20:06 |
kgriffs | Well, if clients want to do that, they are perfectly welcome. | 20:06 |
kgriffs | But I don't want to prevent people from just using straight JSON for readability or whatever | 20:07 |
wkharold | MIME? | 20:07 |
wkharold | for message body ... | 20:07 |
cppcabrera | 'application/json' makes sense for a json-encoded body. | 20:09 |
treeder | might need a mime type i guess if we support json structures | 20:09 |
kgriffs | Well, I don't think it's very hard to validate the body text and make sure there's nothing funky in there, and assuming you aren't constructing DB inserts by hand, I'm not worried about the security issue. | 20:09 |
treeder | json or text | 20:09 |
flaper87 | I'd stick with application/json | 20:09 |
kgriffs | agreed | 20:10 |
flaper87 | cool | 20:10 |
flaper87 | gotta run | 20:10 |
flaper87 | lets finish it :P | 20:10 |
kgriffs | If clients want to use something different, as long as they can UTF-8 encode into a string, go for it. | 20:10 |
kgriffs | OK | 20:10 |
treeder | guess it just makes more work on the backend | 20:11 |
kgriffs | Let me just touch real quick on why /messages | 20:11 |
wkharold | yes please | 20:11 |
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kgriffs | Well, the backend needs to somehow validate whatever it's given anyway, IMHO, and re SQL injection or whatever, it can just be stored as an opaque blob. | 20:11 |
treeder | on the way back, it has to be marshalled back into json though | 20:12 |
kgriffs | The reason for the extra namespace is that it lets us add things like /actions and /stats | 20:12 |
kgriffs | Well, depends on how you are constructing the JSON | 20:12 |
treeder | i gotta run, good meeting guys. | 20:13 |
kgriffs | If you are using, e.g., dumps then yes, that's true | 20:13 |
kgriffs | k | 20:13 |
treeder | good progress! | 20:13 |
kgriffs | thx for the feedback | 20:13 |
cppcabrera | Take care, treeder. | 20:13 |
wkharold | OK ... if there are additional resources coming OK | 20:13 |
kgriffs | yeah | 20:13 |
kgriffs | it makes it consistent | 20:13 |
kgriffs | Once we take a full pass through the spec, we can loop back to the top and see how everything looks in context. | 20:14 |
flaper87 | makes sense | 20:14 |
kgriffs | So, next week let's continue going down the list of each action in the spec | 20:14 |
flaper87 | +1 | 20:14 |
cppcabrera | +1 | 20:14 |
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ametts-atl | We switching back to weekly meetings? | 20:15 |
flaper87 | great meeting guys | 20:15 |
flaper87 | thx folks | 20:15 |
kgriffs | Related: Falcon is coming along nicely. Check it out and let me know what you think. | 20:15 |
kgriffs | https://github.com/racker/falcon | 20:15 |
kgriffs | Thanks everyone. | 20:15 |
cppcabrera | I'll keep the Trello up to date. | 20:15 |
kgriffs | #endmeeting | 20:15 |
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings (alternate) || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 20:15 | |
openstack | Meeting ended Thu Feb 7 20:15:54 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:15 |
openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/marconi/2013/marconi.2013-02-07-19.01.html | 20:15 |
openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/marconi/2013/marconi.2013-02-07-19.01.txt | 20:15 |
openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/marconi/2013/marconi.2013-02-07-19.01.log.html | 20:15 |
cppcabrera | meetbot is pretty sweet. | 20:16 |
kgriffs | P.S. - I'll be here next week if anyone wants to come, although we officially don't meet every week. :D | 20:17 |
cppcabrera | I'll be joining in, too. I'm interested in watching the Marconi project evolve. | 20:17 |
cppcabrera | I'm out. Good meeting, everyone. :) | 20:21 |
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