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| tellesnobrega_ | is the pre-meeting for hierarchical multi tenancy here?? | 16:20 |
|---|---|---|
| *** SergeyLukjanov_a is now known as SergeyLukjanov_ | 16:20 | |
| VINOD___ | vishy is not connected to this one...i had posted the same question in openstack-meeting, but got no reply | 16:23 |
| VINOD___ | so no ideas whether any meeting will be there now | 16:23 |
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| tellesnobrega_ | VINOD___: thanks | 16:24 |
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| vishy | sorry I'm late. Is anyone here to discuss hierarchical multitenancy? | 16:26 |
| vishy | VINOD___: ping | 16:27 |
| vishy | tellesnobrega_: ping | 16:27 |
| vishy | is anyone still here? | 16:28 |
| VINOD___ | yes | 16:28 |
| tellesnobrega_ | im also here | 16:28 |
| vishy | hi guys | 16:28 |
| VINOD___ | hi | 16:28 |
| dsantos_ | yes | 16:28 |
| vishy | appreciate you coming | 16:28 |
| vishy | sorry for being late | 16:28 |
| schwicke | Hi | 16:28 |
| VINOD___ | its ok... | 16:28 |
| dsantos_ | np | 16:28 |
| schwicke | np | 16:28 |
| tellesnobrega_ | no problem | 16:28 |
| vishy | so did you guys get a chance to read over the wiki page? | 16:29 |
| VINOD___ | yes | 16:29 |
| tellesnobrega_ | yes | 16:29 |
| dsantos_ | yes | 16:29 |
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| vishy | any thoughts/concerns? | 16:29 |
| VINOD___ | you said, you have some easy solution..can we know it or at 21:00 UTC | 16:30 |
| vishy | sure | 16:30 |
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| vishy | so right now there is a domain in keystone | 16:30 |
| vishy | the major issue as i see it | 16:30 |
| VINOD___ | ok | 16:30 |
| vishy | as long as that domain is just keystone-internal | 16:30 |
| vishy | for role management for example | 16:30 |
| vishy | a lot of the things you expect to be able to do in a true multitenant environment you cannot do | 16:31 |
| VINOD___ | yes | 16:31 |
| schwicke | +1 | 16:31 |
| vishy | so a "domain admin" could manage users/projects in the domain | 16:31 |
| dsantos_ | yah | 16:31 |
| vishy | but he can't do anything useful with the services | 16:31 |
| dsantos_ | *yeah | 16:31 |
| vishy | * other services | 16:31 |
| schwicke | correct | 16:31 |
| vishy | taking two very simple examples | 16:31 |
| tellesnobrega_ | +1 | 16:31 |
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| vishy | a domain admin before deleting a project needs to delete all instances in a project | 16:32 |
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| vishy | this involves two api commands | 16:32 |
| vishy | 1) list instances in project | 16:32 |
| vishy | 2) delete instances (one by one) | 16:32 |
| dsantos_ | I see... but nova doesn't work with domain scoped tokens currently | 16:33 |
| vishy | so currently a domain admin could authenticate into the project | 16:33 |
| VINOD___ | yes...that's not happening now...as i tested like created a project with a user and this user created a VM | 16:33 |
| vishy | then list the instances and delete them | 16:33 |
| VINOD___ | now when i delete the user from the project, the VM is still there...and when i add the user back to the project...that VM again re-appears in his list | 16:33 |
| vishy | if you have role inheritance on then this works sortof | 16:33 |
| vishy | but the user experience is really bad | 16:34 |
| dsantos_ | +1 | 16:34 |
| schwicke | indeed | 16:34 |
| vishy | if I'm managing ten projects i don't want to have to switch credentials every time | 16:34 |
| vishy | so ultimately i think we need fully nested ownership | 16:35 |
| tellesnobrega_ | +1 | 16:35 |
| vishy | where a resource is owned by org.unit.project for example | 16:35 |
| vishy | in fact you could envision a future where a resource could be in multiple parts of the tree | 16:35 |
| vishy | but that isn't necessary initially | 16:35 |
| dsantos_ | I think the problem you've mentioned should be fixed in the services | 16:36 |
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| dsantos_ | let me give an example | 16:36 |
| vishy | so the thought i had was to basically turn the "project_id" or "owner" field into a dot separated list showing the whole hierarchy | 16:36 |
| schwicke | I think this scenario can become quite complex easily | 16:36 |
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| dsantos_ | currently Nova verifies whether the project_id in the request URL is the same one in the context | 16:37 |
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| dsantos_ | but this verification is hard coded | 16:37 |
| VINOD___ | yes | 16:37 |
| vishy | dsantos_: sure but the url is going away | 16:37 |
| VINOD___ | when we add domain to this, it becomes complex | 16:37 |
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| dsantos_ | and since it's there, Nova doesn't care what is being populated in the policies target dictionary | 16:38 |
| VINOD___ | and currently in nova, there is no grouping based on domain..it has to come from keystone | 16:38 |
| vishy | so this could key off of project_id in the context from keystone | 16:38 |
| vishy | or we could add a new item called scope | 16:38 |
| vishy | and leave project_id the same | 16:38 |
| VINOD___ | in V2, i think the RBAC rules are not honoured..its just two rules...one is admin and the other is normal user | 16:38 |
| VINOD___ | so the other roles does not have any importance | 16:38 |
| vishy | but the idea is that if we just do ownership by a single field then we don't have to change much | 16:39 |
| vishy | so roughly the simple idea is the following | 16:39 |
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| vishy | a) construct the scope initially from "%s.%s" % (domain, project_id) | 16:39 |
| dsantos_ | I understand what you're proposing, but I actually don't think the current way that RBAC is enforced in the other services is right | 16:39 |
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| VINOD___ | ok | 16:40 |
| vishy | b) update the ownership of objects in .e.g nova to include the whole scope | 16:40 |
| vishy | c) modify ownership matching when listing/validataing commands to include wildcard matches | 16:41 |
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| vishy | d) allow domain scoped tokens to actually work for the services <-- not sure what this would do today | 16:41 |
| vishy | so that is the basic MVP to illustrate how it would work | 16:41 |
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| vishy | dsantos_: there is a lot wrong about rbac, what do you mean specifically? | 16:42 |
| VINOD___ | i had done some testing in keystone with V3...the keystone honours the RBAC pretty good | 16:42 |
| VINOD___ | because i had created a role and could delegate some API's to work for a user with this role and it did worked | 16:43 |
| tellesnobrega_ | VINOD___: keystone does, but other services, not so much | 16:43 |
| dsantos_ | vishy: for example, I cannot specify the same access rule that is enforced in the code using the policy.json file | 16:43 |
| vishy | dsantos_: which access rule in the code? | 16:43 |
| VINOD___ | I don't much about it...i thought of checking with nova...but couldn't because no documentation available on V3 APIs of nova | 16:43 |
| dsantos_ | that's why we just can't remove the verification and allow nova to use domain scoped tokens | 16:44 |
| dsantos_ | vishy: here https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/api/openstack/wsgi.py#L978 | 16:44 |
| vishy | dsantos_: policy.json is a little tricky for object matching | 16:44 |
| vishy | dsantos_: we would have to change that check to be a wildcard match | 16:45 |
| vishy | of some sort | 16:45 |
| vishy | so policy.json works fine for individual items | 16:45 |
| dsantos_ | but also nova fills the target dictionary with the project in the context | 16:46 |
| dsantos_ | for example, here https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/compute/api.py#L1807 | 16:46 |
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| vishy | yes so that would have to use scope | 16:46 |
| vishy | it would be domain.project_id in this case | 16:46 |
| dsantos_ | so if you specify a rule like project_id:%(project_id)s it's always true | 16:46 |
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| VINOD___ | when you add domain, it has to be changed | 16:47 |
| dsantos_ | I agree with you... I understand your solution should work fine | 16:47 |
| vishy | right for get all that doesn't work well | 16:47 |
| vishy | because it basically says that if you are doing a get_all then use the project in the context as the target context | 16:48 |
| dsantos_ | but I think also that nova (and other services) should change filling the target dictionary with the target projet | 16:48 |
| vishy | but when we get down to the data layer we have enough information to filter properly | 16:48 |
| vishy | dsantos_: that's fine but the problem is there is no target dictionary for listed items | 16:48 |
| vishy | because an api call doesn't refer to a single target | 16:49 |
| tellesnobrega_ | i agree with dsantos_ , maybe its not completely necessary for the proposed solution here, but it probably will be in the future and it can help here | 16:49 |
| vishy | so the filtering/matching has to happen on each object individually | 16:49 |
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| vishy | but it is horribly inefficent to do it that way | 16:49 |
| dsantos_ | and in this case we could specify roles like "compute:get_all": "rule:admin_required and (project_id:%(target.project.id) or domain_id:%(target.project.domain.id)s)" | 16:49 |
| dsantos_ | tellesnobrega_: +1 | 16:49 |
| VINOD___ | yes...i agree with santos | 16:49 |
| vishy | i think we just need special matching rules | 16:50 |
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| schwicke | +1 | 16:50 |
| vishy | that get pushed all the way into data layer filters | 16:50 |
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| vishy | in this case you can filter the list of instances by LIKE "domain.%" | 16:50 |
| vishy | for example | 16:51 |
| dsantos_ | vishy: but "filters" you mean the filters of the methods in the DB layer? | 16:51 |
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| vishy | yes | 16:51 |
| vishy | it is the only way to do it efficiently | 16:51 |
| vishy | you can't get a list of 1000 instances | 16:51 |
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| vishy | and check each one manually against the rbac rule | 16:51 |
| dsantos_ | I see... currently it uses the context as well... and for doing what I said it would have to change | 16:51 |
| dsantos_ | I see that it's a big change | 16:51 |
| vishy | this is why get_all doesn't work like you expect | 16:51 |
| vishy | dsantos_: not as big as you might think | 16:52 |
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| vishy | because all of the get_all commands already filter by project | 16:52 |
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| vishy | unless you pass in --all_tenants | 16:52 |
| dsantos_ | why doesn't get_all receive a parameter? | 16:52 |
| vishy | in which case you have to be an admin | 16:52 |
| vishy | a parameter for how to filter? | 16:52 |
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| VINOD___ | Please correct me..if my understand is wrong..what i understood basing on my experience with openstack is | 16:54 |
| VINOD___ | User are part of Domain and has a password. There are two types of users, one is admin and the other is normal user. | 16:54 |
| VINOD___ | We can have roles like "admin", "DomainAdmin", "ProjectAdmin" and "Member". | 16:54 |
| VINOD___ | When a domain or tenant is created, we can add some users with the above roles, like for example each domain can have atleast one person as "DomainAdmin". | 16:54 |
| VINOD___ | Now, the policy.json file should allow both the admin and "DomainAdmin" should be able to create the "tenants" in that domain. | 16:54 |
| dsantos_ | I mean... in Nova v2 you pass the target project in the URL, so if we pass this project_id to the method we could filter using that | 16:54 |
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| VINOD___ | This type of hierachy works in keystone (i had checked). But it does not work in nova, mainly because of two problems. One the context that nova sees does not have domain id in it and there is no mapping for domain to projects in nova (that it has to take it from keystone or include in the context). | 16:54 |
| dsantos_ | and not the project in the context... but I actually don't know the impact of some changes like this | 16:54 |
| vishy | dsantos_: yes that is what i was thinking | 16:54 |
| vishy | dsantos_: how it appears in policy.json could be a little tricky | 16:54 |
| vishy | i think we might need a new type of matcher | 16:55 |
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| vishy | VINOD___: that's basically correct | 16:55 |
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| vishy | VINOD___: but the problem is more extensive. Nova has no logic to do anything with the domain id once it is added | 16:56 |
| vishy | that is the majority of the work | 16:56 |
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| dsantos_ | vishy: I see | 16:56 |
| vishy | so we could add a whole separate field to all of the objects called domain_id | 16:57 |
| vishy | and make our rbac rules more complicated | 16:57 |
| vishy | like you suggest domain_id match || project_id match | 16:57 |
| vishy | but we still would have to modify the get_all stuff to list by domain | 16:57 |
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| vishy | and have some complicated logic to domain admin in addition to regular admin | 16:58 |
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| dsantos_ | vishy: I see | 16:58 |
| VINOD___ | Yes, otherwise how could we then delegate some body as Domain Admin to set the quotas on all the tenants or to do any manipulation on the tenants below that domain | 16:58 |
| dsantos_ | also the domain_id has to go in the context... it's not there currently | 16:58 |
| vishy | that is a much harder set of changes then just changing project id to include the entire scope | 16:58 |
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| VINOD___ | yes domain_id has to go in the context | 16:58 |
| vishy | + it precludes you from adding a never level to the hierarchy into the future | 16:58 |
| dsantos_ | I've submitted a patch adding the domain_id to the nova context but it was not accepted at that time | 16:58 |
| vishy | * another | 16:58 |
| dsantos_ | because there's no code for using that | 16:59 |
| vishy | dsantos_: right we have to prove to all of the teams that something like this will work and is useful | 16:59 |
| vishy | which is why a devstack install demonstrating it seems like the right way to do this | 16:59 |
| VINOD___ | also we should drop the {project_id} in the urls | 16:59 |
| vishy | VINOD___: that is already planned for v3 | 17:00 |
| VINOD___ | ok...is there any document available for V3 APIs of nova | 17:00 |
| VINOD___ | because i couldn't find any...as i thought of doing some testing | 17:00 |
| dsantos_ | VINOD___: I haven't seen any document as well | 17:00 |
| dsantos_ | it would be good | 17:00 |
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| tellesnobrega_ | vishy: it sounds good | 17:01 |
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| VINOD___ | If i summarize my understanding....i think we should add domain_id (in addition to project_id or user_id)...to the context...Then for admin, no need of doing any checks, he can simply run any commands. But for a user his domain id and/or project id has to match with the context | 17:01 |
| VINOD___ | and then apply the RBAC rules to check whether a query can be run | 17:02 |
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| vishy | VINOD___: somewhere perhaps. ping cyeoh in openstack-nova for info | 17:02 |
| VINOD___ | ok..thanks | 17:03 |
| vishy | right | 17:03 |
| vishy | and we can implement it by adding domain.project as the project_id in the database | 17:03 |
| vishy | and match based on string matching of owner | 17:03 |
| vishy | + modify the list commands to accept a filter parameter somehow | 17:04 |
| dsantos_ | vishy: I understand | 17:04 |
| vishy | the nice way to do it might be to put a regex matcher in policy | 17:04 |
| VINOD___ | It not just list.. i think RBAC purpose is if the rule matches, the user can run any command | 17:04 |
| vishy | and then have some logic that converts the regex matcher into a db where clause for performance | 17:04 |
| VINOD___ | yes | 17:05 |
| vishy | VINOD___: sure but the other ones are much easier | 17:05 |
| VINOD___ | ok | 17:05 |
| vishy | because they don't have performance concerns | 17:05 |
| VINOD___ | yaaa. understand | 17:05 |
| VINOD___ | got it | 17:05 |
| vishy | you can just match against the object in python | 17:05 |
| vishy | ok so i need to head out in a bit | 17:05 |
| vishy | did I answer your questions? | 17:05 |
| VINOD___ | yes | 17:05 |
| vishy | I will try to organize an earlier time slot | 17:06 |
| dsantos_ | good | 17:06 |
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| vishy | and I'd like to get people involved in an actual devstack branch with real code | 17:06 |
| vishy | collaborating on github most likely | 17:06 |
| vishy | so if anyone wants to participate in that let me know | 17:06 |
| VINOD___ | Frankly, i don't know how difficult to do the changes in nova .....but some point we need to have a facility to delegate rights with users having certain roles..and that can be mentioned in the policy.json file | 17:06 |
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| dsantos_ | I don't think I'll can attend the meeting tonight, but if you can send an email with some wiki page, that would be good | 17:07 |
| VINOD___ | i want to participate | 17:07 |
| vishy | VINOD__: there is a lot of rbac stuff that needs to be improved for sure | 17:07 |
| VINOD___ | ok | 17:07 |
| vishy | but i'd like to save most of that for the future | 17:07 |
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| vishy | i.e. do the minimum amount possible for multitenancy to work | 17:07 |
| tellesnobrega_ | i think we have some work to do, designing and everything, the meeting tonight for me is going to be very difficult to participate, i also would like to have a log of the meeting or a summary. | 17:08 |
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| vishy | VINOD___: I'm also considering just completely not using domains for the prototype | 17:08 |
| VINOD___ | vishy -> how can i participate..do you mean about the meeting at 21:00 UTC | 17:08 |
| vishy | and just creating a bunch of projects | 17:08 |
| vishy | like | 17:08 |
| dsantos_ | vishy: I'm not sure when I'll be able to start contributing since I'm moving from my city next week | 17:08 |
| vishy | org.unitA.projectA | 17:08 |
| dsantos_ | but I would like to help | 17:08 |
| vishy | org.unitB.projectB | 17:08 |
| VINOD___ | ok | 17:08 |
| vishy | i.e. stick the org structure in the project_id | 17:09 |
| vishy | dsantos_: no worries | 17:09 |
| vishy | i will send out an email about how the collaboration will work | 17:09 |
| tellesnobrega_ | i thinks this is a good approach, making sure it works for projects, before bringing domains into play | 17:09 |
| vishy | after the 2100 meeting | 17:09 |
| VINOD___ | If you want to have minimal work for heirarchical, then atleast we can implement the delegation of rights at tenant level | 17:10 |
| schwicke | Will try to connect tonight as well. I'd like to participate (working with Vinod in fact) | 17:10 |
| VINOD___ | probably this can work as a starting point....to understand the things in a more better way | 17:10 |
| VINOD___ | and then go with the domains... | 17:10 |
| vishy | VINOD___: yes ok. I have to go now guys | 17:11 |
| vishy | talk to you soon! | 17:11 |
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| dsantos_ | thanks, vishy! | 17:11 |
| VINOD___ | Thank you very much...will surely connect at 21:00 UTC | 17:11 |
| schwicke | vishy: we'd appreciate to have the domain stuff in because we need it at CERN. | 17:11 |
| schwicke | will do my best for the 21h slot! | 17:11 |
| VINOD___ | and please let us know ..if any contribution can be done from our side | 17:11 |
| VINOD___ | thanks to all | 17:12 |
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| schwicke | See you ! | 17:12 |
| dsantos_ | :) | 17:12 |
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| praveen___ | Hi | 22:08 |
| praveen___ | Is anyone in Defcore team? | 22:08 |
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