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| dhellmann | #startmeeting oslo | 16:02 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Oct 20 16:02:02 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is dhellmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: oslo)" | 16:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'oslo' | 16:02 |
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| dhellmann | who's around to finish the discussion of meeting topics? | 16:02 |
| bnemec | o/ | 16:02 |
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| dhellmann | hi, bnemec | 16:02 |
| bnemec | I think I may have told everyone the wrong time on Friday. :-/ | 16:02 |
| dhellmann | oh? | 16:03 |
| * dhellmann looks at meeting logs | 16:03 | |
| bnemec | Ah, I got my local time wrong, but the right UTC. | 16:03 |
| dhellmann | ah, ok, good | 16:04 |
| dhellmann | dimsum_, jd__, flaper87|afk, harlowja_away - ping? | 16:04 |
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| dhellmann | bnemec: I think you're right about maybe needing > 1 session for oslo.messaging | 16:05 |
| dhellmann | I'm interested in learning more about how harlowja_away thinks we can drop the library | 16:05 |
| dhellmann | esp. if he's signing up to rewrite everything currently using it :-) | 16:05 |
| bnemec | :-) | 16:05 |
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| bnemec | The py3 subpoint for oslo.messaging will probably be covered in the py3 session. | 16:08 |
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| jd__ | pong | 16:08 |
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| jd__ | I thought the first meeting was after the summit | 16:08 |
| dhellmann | jd__: we need to finalize our summit schedule; bnemec scheduled this slot during friday's meeting | 16:09 |
| jd__ | ok cool missed that :) | 16:09 |
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| dhellmann | np | 16:10 |
| dhellmann | last time I just did this, but we were supposed to be collaborating on it this time around | 16:11 |
| bnemec | I was told jd__ was travelling too, so I really should have sent something to the list for anyone who wasn't at the meeting Friday. :-/ | 16:11 |
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| dhellmann | jd__: the "local" module keeps coming up. We keep thinking that we only use it one place, but then find other places it is used (logging and rpc have something like it, for example). Do you know the full status there? | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: ah, right, forgot jd__ was travelling | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | that doesn't explain why no one else is around :-/ | 16:12 |
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| bnemec | I chalk that up to Monday. | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 16:12 |
| bnemec | dhellmann: I asked dimsum_ about the local module and he thought we could cover it in the graduation session. | 16:13 |
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| dhellmann | we may not need a full session on it, but I need someone to write down all of the users and figure out where it should live before we get into a room in paris | 16:13 |
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| bnemec | Yeah, makes sense. | 16:14 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: rpc used to use it but don't anymore AFAIK | 16:14 |
| dhellmann | the request context is used for logging and rpc, and it's the main user, but zzzeek also had something about thread-locals come up for oslo.db recently | 16:14 |
| jd__ | only log is using it now AFAIK | 16:14 |
| dhellmann | jd__: messaging now has a separate implementation: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.messaging/tree/oslo/messaging/localcontext.py | 16:15 |
| dhellmann | why? does it actually work properly? | 16:15 |
| dhellmann | I'm not seeing any calls to that module outside of oslo.messaging, so I wonder if that context is the same as the one I'm thinking of | 16:17 |
| jd__ | can we call that a separate implementation? I mean it's so thin it's basically just a small module used internally by oslo.messaging I don't think it's something that should/could be outsourced | 16:17 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: yeah I think there the key is more hardcoded | 16:18 |
| dhellmann | well, yeah, but my point is why does that not use the fancy module we set up in the incubator? is it missing something important by not using that module? | 16:18 |
| jd__ | having a whole lib about one usage of threading.local() really looks overkill to me :) | 16:18 |
| dhellmann | it would be, except for the dependency management issues we'll have if we put it in one of the other libraries | 16:18 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: well basically oslo.messaging.localcontext would only use openstack.common.local.strong_store (which is a threading.local() instance)… really not worth it | 16:19 |
| dhellmann | it doesn't need the weak store? | 16:19 |
| bnemec | Yeah, it really belongs in concurrency IMHO, but that pulls in oslo.config, i18n, and utils. :-( | 16:19 |
| sileht | o/ | 16:19 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: not according to http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.messaging/tree/oslo/messaging/localcontext.py | 16:19 |
| dhellmann | I see that it doesn't use a weak store, but I wonder why we have a special weak store at all and whether we should be using it here, too | 16:20 |
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| dhellmann | that setting for key looks weird, too. Why do we use a random value there? | 16:20 |
| * dhellmann wishes some of this code had more comments | 16:20 | |
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| dhellmann | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/oslo.messaging/tree/oslo/messaging/localcontext.py#n25 | 16:20 |
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| jd__ | dunnow | 16:21 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: also note that AFAIK WeakLocal is not used anywhere neither | 16:21 |
| jd__ | so the only thing that is used is the threading.local() instance in local.py | 16:22 |
| dhellmann | sigh | 16:22 |
| jd__ | really AFAIK this is all deadcode | 16:22 |
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| dhellmann | jd__: I'll bet there something in nova depending on the weakref stuff | 16:22 |
| jd__ | let's ask the Grep God | 16:23 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: can't find it :) | 16:23 |
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| dhellmann | this wouldn't be the first time grep didn't find it, but that it was there | 16:23 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: I can try a test patch that remove it and see if it fails? | 16:23 |
| bnemec | I think lockutils might have used weak references from local.py at one point. | 16:24 |
| dhellmann | we did that once with something that only rackspace was using in production | 16:24 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: interesting | 16:24 |
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| dhellmann | jd__: we removed something from oslo.db that depended on a patched version of eventlet and there was a firestorm on the ML | 16:24 |
| jd__ | O_o | 16:25 |
| dhellmann | jd__: so now I prefer to be very cautious about removing things | 16:25 |
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| dhellmann | yeah | 16:25 |
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| sileht | woauh oO | 16:25 |
| dhellmann | anyway | 16:25 |
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| jd__ | actually the local.store is used to store the context for the logger to find | 16:26 |
| jd__ | (logger I mean log.py) | 16:26 |
| jd__ | but it seems that's not used anymore? who was responsible to put the context in there? | 16:26 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure how that part works. I was going to try to figure it out as part of graduating oslo.log | 16:27 |
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| jd__ | ok | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | I think the context class had code to inject itself? | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | (into the logging thread-local context, that is) | 16:27 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: no :( | 16:28 |
| jd__ | not sure that's used anymore in fact | 16:28 |
| bnemec | https://github.com/openstack/oslo.concurrency/blob/master/oslo/concurrency/lockutils.py#L174 is what I was thinking of regarding lockutils, but I think it's actually unrelated now that I look closer. | 16:28 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: I'll take the #action to build a test patch on Nova to remove local.py | 16:28 |
| dhellmann | jd__: ok | 16:28 |
| jd__ | see if it breaks anything | 16:29 |
| dhellmann | let's try to remove it from projects that think they need it before we remove it from the incubator | 16:29 |
| jd__ | (I wrote the patch while we were chatting I'm testing it right now) | 16:29 |
| bnemec | I guess worst case scenario is someone hollers and we restore it. | 16:29 |
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| jd__ | or we gag him | 16:30 |
| dhellmann | right | 16:30 |
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| bnemec | So what about https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/context.py#L97 | 16:31 |
| bnemec | I think ^ is what dhellmann was talking about. | 16:31 |
| dhellmann | ah! yes, that's it | 16:31 |
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| dhellmann | bnemec: I suppose if we put the thread.local() instance in oslo.log, we could do that setup from the library instead of from the subclass | 16:33 |
| dhellmann | ^from the library^from the base class | 16:33 |
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| bnemec | dhellmann: You mean if everyone was inheriting our Context class? | 16:34 |
| dhellmann | does it seem weird to put the context class in oslo.log when it is also used for web requests? should we just have oslo.context for that? | 16:34 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: yes | 16:34 |
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| dhellmann | the context provides features for oslo.log and oslo.messaging, which makes finding the logical home for it difficult | 16:35 |
| bnemec | Yeah, log does seem like kind of a weird place for it to live. | 16:35 |
| dhellmann | maybe it should be stand-alone, even though it would be a tiny library | 16:35 |
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| bnemec | Yeah, that's probably safest. If it didn't add a bunch of bug/blueprint/release overhead I'd say there's no question. | 16:36 |
| dhellmann | I'll work on updating the blueprints I've already done related to context | 16:37 |
| bnemec | So then local would live in oslo.log, and context would be its own lib? | 16:37 |
| bnemec | And context would have a dep on oslo.log so it can inject itself. | 16:37 |
| dhellmann | the other way around - context would create a public threading.local() instance and store itself there, and oslo.log would look in oslo.context to get the current context | 16:38 |
| dhellmann | actually we'd probably make a couple of functions to hid the threading.local() object | 16:38 |
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| dhellmann | like oslo.messaging has | 16:38 |
| dhellmann | except from the outside, you would only query the context, because it would automatically be stored | 16:39 |
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| bnemec | Ah, okay. I think that makes sense. | 16:40 |
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| dhellmann | let's talk functional testing | 16:40 |
| bnemec | Yeah, that's one I needed to ask you about. | 16:40 |
| dhellmann | we need to set up some jobs for oslo.messaging and oslo.db that use real services like mysql and rabbit but don't require all of openstack to be installed to run like tempest does | 16:41 |
| dhellmann | I haven't thought much further than that about how to do it, so we need someone to drive that work | 16:41 |
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| dhellmann | I'm not sure if we're going to get that done this cycle, given the other work we're trying to do | 16:41 |
| bnemec | Okay, kgiusti expressed interest in helping. | 16:41 |
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| dhellmann | I think there are some other really important things to do with oslo.messaging first -- mainly clearing our backlog and building up a strong review team | 16:42 |
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| dhellmann | I'm inclined to punt this to L, frankly | 16:42 |
| bnemec | Yes, we are critically short on reviewers. | 16:43 |
| bnemec | oslo.db kind of already has functional testing with their opportunistic test cases, right? | 16:44 |
| dhellmann | yeah, true | 16:44 |
| dhellmann | how about the quota library? | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | should we encourage a from-scratch library, an incubated library, something happening directly in neutron and then being turned into a library later, or some other approach? | 16:46 |
| * bnemec was not a fan of the existing quota code last time he looked | 16:46 | |
| dhellmann | I'm content to let salv-orlando handle creating something new and useful, but I'm not sure where that work should happen. I worry a bit about it happening inside neutron. | 16:46 |
| salv-orlando | dhellmann: because everything that grows inside neutron is poisonous? | 16:47 |
| salv-orlando | just kidding. | 16:47 |
| bnemec | Yeah, I guess the tradeoff is that it would be easier to develop in a single project and then import to incubator, but then we're more likely to end up with project-specific bits in it. | 16:47 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: no, because libs that grow inside of any project tend to be project-specific in unfortunate ways | 16:47 |
| salv-orlando | but really I can do wherever you feel more appropiate. I can do that in oslo-incubator and periodically push things in neutron to validate that | 16:48 |
| salv-orlando | assuming the other neutron cores are on board with this idea | 16:48 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: if we do it in neutron directly, I think it will take 3 cycles to graduate (neutron, incubator & another project adopting, lib) | 16:48 |
| salv-orlando | dhellmann: agree, this is the drawback I identified as well. | 16:48 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: yeah, the idea with the incubator is you have a tight feedback loop with the consumers, so you might push each patch right into neutron, too | 16:49 |
| salv-orlando | dhellmann: cool. Let’s say that I will prepare a specification for oslo incubator then. | 16:49 |
| dhellmann | if we go straight to a library (bypassing the incubator and neutron) we get a library faster, but may have to live with an API we don't like if we have to make changes to allow projects other than neutron to use it | 16:49 |
| salv-orlando | unless you feel it is better to discuss that at the summit first (I reckong ML + gerrit is enough) | 16:49 |
| salv-orlando | dhellmann: I think the incubator path has worked so far, so let’s keep doing that. | 16:50 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: we also need to figure out how an incubated module adds to the neutron db schema | 16:50 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure we've done that before? | 16:50 |
| bnemec | That sounds a little scary. | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | so does doing it in the library, though, actually | 16:51 |
| salv-orlando | dhellmann: I was planning to avoid this… by having a quota enforcement module, which assumes the project where you’re plugging it already has the models | 16:51 |
| salv-orlando | which a given interface | 16:51 |
| salv-orlando | sorry with a given interface | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: so you would provide classes to use, but not the migration scripts to create the tables? | 16:51 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: there are a couple of tricky aspects to figuring out packaging for this. do you think you'll have time to prepare an oslo spec before the summit? | 16:52 |
| salv-orlando | dhellmann: yes I will be able to. Also, I would defer conversation on the db migrations to the ML as it’s going to steal too much meeting time | 16:53 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: we can see about that one. That's the part I'm most worried about, because we have lots of experience evolving APIs but little with the database schema sharing | 16:54 |
| bnemec | Just to complicate things further, there was some discussion of storing quotas in a completely separate project too, wasn't there? | 16:55 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: ok, we'll watch for the spec | 16:55 |
| salv-orlando | dhellmann: I think that having libraries that extend a db schema is probably not a good design idea in the long term. | 16:55 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: yeah, keystone I think | 16:55 |
| dhellmann | salv-orlando: yeah, does that mean a separate quota service, then? | 16:55 |
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| salv-orlando | bnemec: yes. And this why I was thinking of having a quota enforcement library which would call a quota manager class that can then interface with keystone or else | 16:56 |
| morganfainberg | salv-orlando, dhellmann, that was a longer term thought iirc | 16:56 |
| morganfainberg | the separate quota service | 16:56 |
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| salv-orlando | dhellmann: no quota service - that’s the whole point. We need to keep things simple. If people need a quota management & reservation service, they will use blazar | 16:56 |
| * dhellmann makes a note to look up what blazar is after the meeting | 16:56 | |
| bnemec | Heh, I'm reading their wiki page right now :-) | 16:57 |
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| salv-orlando | dhellmann: blazar or the project formerly known as murano | 16:57 |
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| * morganfainberg can't keep up with all the project names | 16:57 | |
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| dhellmann | salv-orlando: if there is a quota enforcement library, and it needs to use the database, it also needs to own the part of the schema it manages, doesn't it? | 16:57 |
| dhellmann | we'll definitely need a session on the quota management | 16:58 |
| morganfainberg | dhellmann, ++ | 16:58 |
| bnemec | +1 | 16:58 |
| bnemec | I was just typing the same thing. :-) | 16:58 |
| dhellmann | ok, so we have 1 slot left | 16:58 |
| salv-orlando | dhellmann: a session perhpas, but the quota enforcement library can exist without adding things of its own to the schema. | 16:58 |
| dhellmann | we could use that on taskflow | 16:58 |
| salv-orlando | that’s all from me ;) | 16:58 |
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| dhellmann | salv-orlando: ok, I can't imagine how that would work so I'll wait for your spec :-) | 16:59 |
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| bnemec | dhellmann: On Friday, harlowja_away was okay with rolling some of his taskflow topics into the oslo.messaging session. | 16:59 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, I think the problem there is harlowja_away doesn't like oslo.messaging so doesn't want to use it in taskflow and I'm trying to understand why taskflow then recreated some of the abstractions that oslo.messaging has and how we can avoid having 2 implementations of RPC | 17:00 |
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| dhellmann | but that's where we started, and we're out of time now so we should clear the room | 17:01 |
| dhellmann | bnemec, salv-orlando, jd__ , morganfainberg : thanks for your help today! | 17:01 |
| * bnemec -> openstack-oslo | 17:01 | |
| bnemec | dhellmann: np | 17:01 |
| dhellmann | bnemec: yep | 17:01 |
| dhellmann | let's move to our room to finish up | 17:01 |
| dhellmann | #endmeeting | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Oct 20 17:01:38 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2014/oslo.2014-10-20-16.02.html | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2014/oslo.2014-10-20-16.02.txt | 17:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/oslo/2014/oslo.2014-10-20-16.02.log.html | 17:01 |
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| catherine_d | any one here for refstack IRC? | 19:05 |
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| sslypushenko__ | Hi! | 19:05 |
| catherine_d | Hello sslypushenko__: | 19:05 |
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| sslypushenko__ | Thanx for review universal_setup_script) | 19:06 |
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| sslypushenko__ | catherine_d: Do you have a chance to review output page demo? | 19:07 |
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| catherine_d | sslypushenko__: You are welcome ... Thanks for doing such a thorough work ... | 19:09 |
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| catherine_d | sslypushenko__: Hi, Not yest ... I am reviewing the havancore first ... | 19:10 |
| catherine_d | let me try to get David on the IRC ... be right back /// | 19:10 |
| davidlenwell | hello | 19:12 |
| davidlenwell | sorry im late | 19:12 |
| catherine_d | davidlenwell: Hi .. np ... | 19:13 |
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| catherine_d | we have started the meeting ... | 19:13 |
| davidlenwell | I can see that | 19:13 |
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| sslypushenko__ | o/ | 19:14 |
| davidlenwell | I'm right in the middle of testing the api.. thats why I was late | 19:14 |
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| rockyg | o/ | 19:14 |
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| catherine_d | davidlenwell: could you #startmeeting .. | 19:15 |
| sslypushenko__ | What we have to discuss for today? | 19:15 |
| davidlenwell | #startmeeting refstack | 19:15 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Oct 20 19:15:34 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is davidlenwell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:15 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:15 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: refstack)" | 19:15 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'refstack' | 19:15 |
| catherine_d | o/ | 19:15 |
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| davidlenwell | not a lot .. my head is down right now on the api.. should be usable and on the domain name in the next couple of -days.. then I'll turn my focus to content for website and wiki | 19:16 |
| davidlenwell | mainly I need to know who I am blocking today .. so I can make sure everyone is on track | 19:17 |
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| sslypushenko__ | Please, keep me on track... | 19:18 |
| catherine_d | sslypushenko__: I assign a new refstack-client story for you to implement ... are you OK with that? | 19:18 |
| davidlenwell | sslypushenko__: when is our time with you up ? | 19:18 |
| sslypushenko__ | Yep! | 19:19 |
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| sslypushenko__ | I guess to middle of november | 19:20 |
| davidlenwell | okay .. good to know | 19:20 |
| davidlenwell | I am going to try to spend the first half of this week getting my head above water and planning what goes next. | 19:21 |
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| davidlenwell | sslypushenko__: what hours are you generally available? | 19:22 |
| sslypushenko__ | Let me calculate) | 19:23 |
| davidlenwell | I want to coordinate with you over the next couple of days to land tests for the api that depend on my api functions landing. | 19:23 |
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| sslypushenko__ | You can send me email any time you want | 19:23 |
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| davidlenwell | I would preffer to discuss things in channel in irc | 19:23 |
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| sslypushenko__ | If we need a meeting we can schedule it to 20:00 UTC | 19:25 |
| davidlenwell | okay | 19:26 |
| davidlenwell | then if I want you in channel I'll ping you and also send you an email | 19:26 |
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| sslypushenko__ | Okay! | 19:26 |
| davidlenwell | catherine_d: are you blocked on anything other than the api ? | 19:26 |
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| catherine_d | so from refstack-client point of view ... once we have the upload API .. I think we are good .. we have 3 stories to implement (1 by sslypushenko__: and 2 by Paul) ... sslypushenko__: | 19:27 |
| davidlenwell | excelent | 19:27 |
| catherine_d | so the testing you mentioned is testing from refstack side or refstack-client ? | 19:27 |
| davidlenwell | refstack api side | 19:27 |
| davidlenwell | not the client | 19:27 |
| davidlenwell | these are unit tests for gate mostly | 19:27 |
| catherine_d | ok | 19:28 |
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| sslypushenko__ | davidlenwell : You can find it usefull https://review.openstack.org/#/c/115939/ | 19:29 |
| sslypushenko__ | For API testing | 19:29 |
| catherine_d | as said before refstack-client side looks good .... bur from refstack side ... other than API .... we need the site up .. that means we need content .. | 19:29 |
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| rockyg | ++ | 19:30 |
| catherine_d | like layout of the homepages and its links ... | 19:30 |
| davidlenwell | thats my only focus after landing the api | 19:30 |
| davidlenwell | I am the only one among us with design expierance | 19:30 |
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| davidlenwell | I will for sure have it ready for paris | 19:30 |
| davidlenwell | even if i am finalizing it on the flight over | 19:30 |
| catherine_d | I know but from content (to render) what do we need ... | 19:31 |
| davidlenwell | to render data from test results you mean ? | 19:31 |
| rockyg | can we have a barebones skeleton with at least links before the flight, please? So we can at least test where things go to existing stuff? | 19:31 |
| catherine_d | I am concentrating in reviewing the havanacore list ... | 19:31 |
| davidlenwell | rockyg: sure | 19:31 |
| davidlenwell | its going to be a one page scoller | 19:32 |
| catherine_d | do we need her to work on the Icehouse core? etc ... | 19:32 |
| davidlenwell | that can only be approved by defcore.. am I wrong? | 19:32 |
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| davidlenwell | where is rob when we need him? | 19:32 |
| rockyg | He's on the board meeting call, doing the defcore preso | 19:33 |
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| davidlenwell | well the capabilites and the tests the cover them is something that we've agreed that someone from defcore must plus 1 before merging | 19:34 |
| rockyg | I think there will likely be a first pass on getting capabilities with grouped tests listed so the scoring can start before or during Paris | 19:34 |
| davidlenwell | I would hope so | 19:35 |
| catherine_d | now once we have the core and API is available to upload data ... we we need to work on a piece of code to calcykate score ... | 19:35 |
| rockyg | Right. There needs to be the list, then scoring, then TC and board aproval, then merging | 19:35 |
| davidlenwell | not sure the tc cares | 19:35 |
| davidlenwell | but yes | 19:35 |
| davidlenwell | thats supposed to be the order for icehouse | 19:35 |
| davidlenwell | we are at their mercy with timing | 19:36 |
| rockyg | TC gets to verify test cases for capabilities | 19:36 |
| rockyg | Otherwise, they want everything;-) | 19:36 |
| davidlenwell | I'll stay out of the politics | 19:36 |
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| davidlenwell | just fyi.. the refstack position on this stuff is to stay agnostic and just creat testing tools that can be used by these groups. | 19:37 |
| rockyg | Icehouse may be easy compared to Kilo if the functional tests get split out. | 19:37 |
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| davidlenwell | its also way to early to think about kilo | 19:37 |
| rockyg | Yup. So all the capabilities grouped will be usable on RefStack. Whether part of Defcore definition or not, right? | 19:37 |
| davidlenwell | refstack doesn't care about the capabilites or how they are mapped | 19:38 |
| davidlenwell | to tests.. | 19:38 |
| davidlenwell | at least not right now | 19:38 |
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| rockyg | good enough. Or as we used to say in band, close enough for jazz | 19:38 |
| davidlenwell | lol | 19:39 |
| davidlenwell | our main goal is data collection for interopability research | 19:39 |
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| davidlenwell | defcore is just using our tools.. | 19:39 |
| rockyg | ++ | 19:40 |
| davidlenwell | so is anyone else blocked on anything? | 19:40 |
| catherine_d | sslypushenko__: your question earlier abou out put find demo you mean this http://sergslipushenko.github.io/capabilities.html | 19:40 |
| catherine_d | I have reviewed http://sergslipushenko.github.io/capabilities.html.. and that patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/111758/ was merged .. | 19:41 |
| sslypushenko__ | no | 19:42 |
| catherine_d | davidlenwell: nothing blocked for now other than API which we have discussed /// | 19:42 |
| sslypushenko__ | I meant this page http://sergslipushenko.github.io/output.html | 19:42 |
| sslypushenko__ | Rob asked me to make prototype to refstack test result page | 19:43 |
| davidlenwell | thanks sslypushenko__ | 19:43 |
| davidlenwell | can you commit that to the codebase in the templates directory? | 19:43 |
| davidlenwell | as is | 19:43 |
| sslypushenko__ | sure | 19:44 |
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| sslypushenko__ | I can turn it to flask template | 19:44 |
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| davidlenwell | that would be excelent | 19:45 |
| davidlenwell | please do .. however do not write any code to populate it just yet | 19:45 |
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| davidlenwell | I just want this in the review process | 19:45 |
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| sslypushenko__ | I will add to you as reviewer | 19:46 |
| davidlenwell | thank you | 19:46 |
| sslypushenko__ | But I'm waiting for peaces of advise what I should add to this page | 19:47 |
| davidlenwell | thats fine | 19:47 |
| davidlenwell | it should always be done throught he review process .. easier to track that way | 19:47 |
| sslypushenko__ | It is all ready on review | 19:48 |
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| sslypushenko__ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129320/ | 19:48 |
| davidlenwell | thanks | 19:49 |
| davidlenwell | alright .. does anyone have anything else? | 19:49 |
| catherine_d | I am good ... | 19:49 |
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| rockyg | Sounds like a take. | 19:53 |
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| catherine_d | sslypushenko__: what is particulary support? maybe we can IRC on #refstack to discuss .. | 19:54 |
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| sslypushenko__ | Ok. Lets move to refstack channel | 19:54 |
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| davidlenwell | sounds good | 19:55 |
| davidlenwell | #endmeeting | 19:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Oct 20 19:55:50 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/refstack/2014/refstack.2014-10-20-19.15.html | 19:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/refstack/2014/refstack.2014-10-20-19.15.txt | 19:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/refstack/2014/refstack.2014-10-20-19.15.log.html | 19:55 |
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| redrobot | #startmeeting barbican | 20:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Oct 20 20:01:15 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is redrobot. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: barbican)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'barbican' | 20:01 |
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| redrobot | Agenda can be found here: | 20:01 |
| redrobot | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Barbican | 20:01 |
| redrobot | #topic Roll Call | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: barbican)" | 20:01 | |
| chellygel | <( ^______^ )^ | 20:02 |
| rellerreller | o/ | 20:02 |
| mattvryan | o/ | 20:02 |
| jvrbanac | _o/ | 20:02 |
| woodster_ | \o | 20:02 |
| bubbva | 0/ | 20:02 |
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| hyakuhei | o/ | 20:02 |
| atiwari | o/ | 20:02 |
| tkelsey | o/ | 20:02 |
| SheenaG1 | o/ | 20:02 |
| redrobot | Awesome, lots of barbicaneers here | 20:02 |
| redrobot | so, we don't actually have anything on the agenda. | 20:03 |
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| jvrbanac | lol | 20:03 |
| redrobot | I'm sure there's thing we want to talk about. | 20:03 |
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| redrobot | #topic Integration Patterns | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Integration Patterns (Meeting topic: barbican)" | 20:04 | |
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| redrobot | rellerreller was talking about different patterns that other projects are using | 20:04 |
| redrobot | last week | 20:04 |
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| hyakuhei | Integration for what? Using Barbican Keymat? | 20:05 |
| rellerreller | redrobot Giuseppe asked about Cinder integration. I responded to that email. | 20:06 |
| hyakuhei | It's a slightly confusing landscape at the moment | 20:06 |
| rellerreller | So Barbican is trying to integrate with different projects. | 20:06 |
| redrobot | so the question was if there's a need for a common interface to a key manager, for which barbican is one implementation. So other projects could use plugins to talk to other key systems directly. | 20:06 |
| rellerreller | Nova and Cinder both have a KeyManager abstraction in place. It is an abstract class. Barbican is one of the implementations of it. | 20:07 |
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| woodster_ | would that code reside in its own repo, or part of the barb client repo? | 20:07 |
| rellerreller | In Neutron they talk directly to Barbican instead of going through the KeyManager interface. | 20:07 |
| woodster_ | ...that key manager facade that is | 20:07 |
| rellerreller | I would like to see it in Oslo | 20:08 |
| alee | Iwould think that if we had a KeyManager, that it would reside in Oslo .. | 20:08 |
| woodster_ | makes sense | 20:08 |
| hyakuhei | alee: +1 | 20:08 |
| hyakuhei | A few people have asked me about that recently | 20:08 |
| rellerreller | We tried to push it into Oslo 1-2 years ago but failed. | 20:08 |
| dhellmann | who would the review team be for a key manager library? | 20:08 |
| hyakuhei | Isnt' that because oslo wants things to be established in projects first, then merged into oslo ? | 20:09 |
| hyakuhei | ^ to stop endless library writing | 20:09 |
| rellerreller | hyakuhei correct | 20:09 |
| hyakuhei | Seems like there's a better case for oslo now than 18 months ago then :) | 20:09 |
| rellerreller | But that is why it is annoying. We have duplicate code in Cinder and Nova | 20:09 |
| dhellmann | rellerreller, hyakuhei: would the barbican team be the primary reviewers for this new lib? | 20:09 |
| * hyakuhei shrugs - dunno. | 20:10 | |
| rellerreller | dhellmann It would depend upon the implementation of the KeyManager. | 20:10 |
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| jvrbanac | woodster_, redrobot ^^ | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | you might do just as well to create a library owned by the barbican team,then | 20:10 |
| dhellmann | oslo isn't the only place we can create libraries, so we try to find other homes if there is an obvious review team in another program | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | I can help you get set up with what you'd need, if you like. | 20:11 |
| rellerreller | dhellman Is there an example of another library like this? | 20:11 |
| dhellmann | rellerreller: keystone owns pycadf now | 20:11 |
| hyakuhei | So obviously oslo is the preferred / good neighbour way of doing things .... | 20:11 |
| atiwari | rellerreller, the abstract classes in nova and cinder are integration points for Barbican ? | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | there's some discussion of a similar case for the policy library, but that doesn't really exist yet | 20:12 |
| rellerreller | atiwari yes | 20:12 |
| woodster_ | rellerreller, are there non-barbican implementations of the key manager interface now? | 20:12 |
| atiwari | that mean these projects are integrated ? | 20:12 |
| dhellmann | rellerreller: I'm not saying we wouldn't take it in oslo, but if the review team would mostly be barbican devs anyway then there may not be much point | 20:12 |
| rellerreller | woodster_ There is a testing KeyManager interface that simply returns the same key every time. We also had a DBKeyManager at one point as well. Again just for testing purposes. | 20:13 |
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| hyakuhei | dhellmann: We can get non Babrican devs from OSSG to review. | 20:13 |
| hyakuhei | (Not a bad idea in any event actually) | 20:13 |
| hyakuhei | I have no preference for oslo particularly, just thinking that makes sense from an integration pov. | 20:14 |
| woodster_ | dhellmann, if barbican owns that interface then would barbican also need to be integrated for other projects to use it, even for non-barbican purposes? If the key manager interface usages now are pending barbican integration anyway, not really an issue? | 20:14 |
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| dhellmann | woodster_: if the library allows alternate implementations (drivers?), then the library could be used without the barbican service being required | 20:15 |
| woodster_ | just trying to understand how this would fit into global requirements for projects | 20:15 |
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| hyakuhei | It's kind of hard to work out where support for Barbican is and isn't right now. tkelsey put together a wikipage that attempts to ssummarize where things are at. It could probably do with a review/edit from some of you guys: https://wiki.openstack.org/w/index.php?title=EncryptionInOpenstack | 20:15 |
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| atiwari | rellerreller, i see there are no impl. yet. | 20:16 |
| tkelsey | hyakuhei: yeah it needs a lot of input, but may help build an overview | 20:16 |
| hyakuhei | Would be useful to direct people to, like that ML query regarding cinder support | 20:16 |
| tkelsey | hyakuhei: +1 yeah good point | 20:17 |
| rellerreller | tkelsey We can take a look at that. bpoulos did a lot of work there. | 20:17 |
| woodster_ | dhellmann, so could this key manager facade be a library in a new repo, but under the key manager program (for review purposes) perhaps? Just trying to fit the puzzle pieces together in my head :) | 20:17 |
| redrobot | I like the idea of having a separate lib for the key manager interface... would this be an oslo* lib though? | 20:17 |
| rellerreller | atiwari check out the Cinder project. cinder.keymgr.barbican.py. | 20:17 |
| dhellmann | woodster_: yes, you would want a new repository with just the library | 20:18 |
| kaitlin-farr__ | atiwari: https://github.com/openstack/cinder/blob/master/cinder/keymgr/barbican.py | 20:18 |
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| atiwari | rellerreller, got it I was looking in to Nova | 20:18 |
| atiwari | thanks | 20:18 |
| woodster_ | dhellmann, ok that makes sense then. A lightweight focused repo for that feature, with barbican as an optional plugin/driver to it. | 20:18 |
| dhellmann | redrobot: my suggestion right now is to have the barbican team manage the new library, since you already have an experienced review team to work on it. We could, bring some oslo folks in to give advice on the API, if you want, but we don't have to own everything that is shared. :-) | 20:19 |
| dhellmann | woodster_: exactly | 20:19 |
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| rellerreller | Yes, Nova is still pending review. They would like to see Barbican integrated first. | 20:19 |
| rellerreller | But we are still pushing on them to get it accepted. | 20:19 |
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| jvrbanac | dhellmann, redrobot, woodster_, sounds good to me! | 20:20 |
| rellerreller | dhellman Interesting. So we would not look unfriendly by starting a new repo? | 20:20 |
| woodster_ | rellerreller, yes that was my concern about having barbican as a dependency for the facade...chickens & eggs! But a separate focused lib would break that condition I'd say | 20:20 |
| rellerreller | woodster_ Yes. I think a separate library opens up a lot more possibilities and will make it faster to integrate. | 20:21 |
| woodster_ | rellerreller, for sure. | 20:21 |
| rellerreller | dhellmann Interesting. So we would not look unfriendly by starting a new repo? | 20:21 |
| dhellmann | rellerreller: not at all | 20:21 |
| woodster_ | so would this be a new stackforge repo perhaps then? | 20:21 |
| rellerreller | That makes me feel better. I would hate to make the community upset, especially at the critical moment when we are trying to integrate. | 20:22 |
| dhellmann | woodster_: you're an incubated project, right? I think you can make this under openstack/ | 20:22 |
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| dhellmann | rellerreller: I'll back you on creating the new repo for the new lib, as long as the lib supports at least one driver other than barbican just in case someone doesn't want to deploy barbican | 20:23 |
| hyakuhei | Direct KMIP or somethign I suppose? | 20:24 |
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| woodster_ | dhellmann, would it need a barbican- prefix to it though, or just declaring it as part of the key manager program would be enough? Could be as simple as 'keymanager' as the repo/lib name? :) | 20:24 |
| rellerreller | hyakuhei You could do that but KMIP does not support Keystone token authentication yet | 20:24 |
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| hyakuhei | I'm not sure what a non-Barbican driver would look like? | 20:25 |
| atiwari | redrobot, woodster_ rellerreller One more integration question, Keystone credential API. Is it make sense to proxy credentials to Barbican; to store the actual secret blob? | 20:25 |
| rellerreller | All the secrets would not be validated, which is why we have KMIP under Barbican now. | 20:25 |
| dhellmann | woodster_: you don't need to put barbican in the name, but "keymanager" may be a little too generic. | 20:25 |
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| dhellmann | hyakuhei: I'm not sure, either, but until we're certain the other projects want to rely on barbican I think you need some alternative to gain acceptance of the library | 20:26 |
| dhellmann | hyakuhei: maybe a direct database driver? | 20:26 |
| hyakuhei | That's fair enough, just wanted to make sure I understood | 20:26 |
| woodster_ | well, designing the key manager interface would be nice for Paris. Maybe a Keystone integrated mode would be optional, for projects with their own (non-Keystone auth) implementations? Paris would see like a good place to define and launch this lib then? | 20:27 |
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| hyakuhei | Good place to start I imagine | 20:27 |
| redrobot | woodster_ +1 yeah, I think we definitely need to talk about this. | 20:27 |
| rellerreller | woodster_ +1 | 20:27 |
| tkelsey | +1 | 20:27 |
| jvrbanac | +1 | 20:27 |
| rm_work | +1 (will there be a livestream?) | 20:27 |
| atiwari | redrobot, woodster_ rellerreller did you see my question above? | 20:28 |
| redrobot | rm_work not sure yet about the livestream. | 20:28 |
| rellerreller | atiwari: I do not understand the question. | 20:28 |
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| woodster_ | Adding as a topic to the kilo design summit etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/barbican-kilo-design-sessions | 20:29 |
| woodster_ | (#15...a long list out there) | 20:29 |
| atiwari | rellerreller, keystone define an ad-hoc strategy to store use credential. | 20:29 |
| atiwari | #link https://github.com/openstack/identity-api/blob/master/v3/src/markdown/identity-api-v3.md#credentials-v3credentials | 20:30 |
| rellerreller | woodster_ I think this would fall under integration with other projects as well | 20:30 |
| atiwari | wondering is it make sense to move that in Barbican | 20:30 |
| atiwari | keeping the keystone credential API intact | 20:30 |
| woodster_ | rellerreller, good point...will add to the 0-th item there! | 20:30 |
| rellerreller | atiwari: I will have to look at the link and get back to you. I"m not familiar with that. | 20:31 |
| atiwari | rellerreller, may be good to talk in Paris :) | 20:31 |
| alee | atiwari, meaning storing the credential of the user that stored the secret ? | 20:32 |
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| rellerreller | atiwari, sounds good | 20:32 |
| atiwari | alee, no it can be anything but scoped to user | 20:32 |
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| alee | atiwari, ok - I'm not sure where you are going with this. will have to read and we can discuss in paris. | 20:34 |
| alee | atiwari, maybe file a spec .. | 20:34 |
| atiwari | alee sure | 20:34 |
| alee | or blueprint | 20:34 |
| woodster_ | atiwari, isn't this item #12 on the etherpad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/barbican-kilo-design-sessions | 20:34 |
| woodster_ | ...or related to it? | 20:35 |
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| atiwari | woodster_, it is in etherpad at last | 20:35 |
| atiwari | Misc | 20:35 |
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| redrobot | #agreed we'll discuss a generic key manager interface library that projects can use to integrate. | 20:37 |
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| redrobot | do we have any other topics we need to talk about? | 20:37 |
| atiwari | redrobot, woodster_, rellerreller alee any thoughts on "Generation discovery API" | 20:38 |
| atiwari | ? | 20:38 |
| hyakuhei | I'd like to discuss HSMs and key handling | 20:38 |
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| hyakuhei | tkelsey has been working on this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116878/ | 20:38 |
| tkelsey | I would like to chat a bit about this patch https://review.openstack.org/#/c/116878 | 20:38 |
| redrobot | #topic HSMs and Key handling | 20:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "HSMs and Key handling (Meeting topic: barbican)" | 20:38 | |
| hyakuhei | Which has some interesting reviews. | 20:38 |
| atiwari | this is for "How should we handle secret_store.py plugin validation" | 20:38 |
| redrobot | hyakuhei go ahead | 20:39 |
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| hyakuhei | Basically is having a HSM but handling keyunwrapping inside Barbican allowable. | 20:39 |
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| hyakuhei | We're working on KMIP support that will deprecate the work tkelsey has been doing | 20:39 |
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| hyakuhei | My understanding is that the preferred mode of operation is for HSM to handle KEK internally and perform wrapping etc | 20:40 |
| hyakuhei | With some HSM interfaces that isn't possible. | 20:40 |
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| hyakuhei | The ESKM only supports that through KMIP (It's _very_ KMIP complient) | 20:41 |
| tkelsey | yeah KMIP is the way we are heading, however it would be good to know about the key (un)wrapping question | 20:41 |
| hyakuhei | We (hp) are supporting APL with the KMIP work and setup a bunch of testing/validation systems for that | 20:41 |
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| woodster_ | hyakuhei, would you KMIP work deprecate tkelsey's work soon, or in the longer term? | 20:41 |
| hyakuhei | I'd say medium term, 1-2 cycles | 20:41 |
| hyakuhei | but we want to use HSMs in high assurance environments sooner than that, without forking/doing or own addon stuff. | 20:42 |
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| hyakuhei | We'd rather contribute | 20:42 |
| woodster_ | I noticed Robert's comments out there since I put mine out there. I'd like for reaperhulk to weigh in as well. | 20:42 |
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| hyakuhei | woodster_: you make good points | 20:43 |
| tkelsey | woodster_: I guess some of the time line depends on how soon KMIP is added to the official deps set https://review.openstack.org/#/c/114037/ | 20:43 |
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| hyakuhei | but I don't think security is an absolute, there are shades :) | 20:43 |
| tkelsey | hyakuhei: +1 | 20:44 |
| woodster_ | the arguments seemed reasonable to me, esp. if KMIP is a little ways off. I'll see if I can get reaperhulk's thoughts add to that CR though.... | 20:44 |
| rellerreller | hyakuhei: Are you looking to store KEKs in KMIP device and then encrypt/decrypt DEKs in Barbican? | 20:45 |
| hyakuhei | +1 value his input | 20:45 |
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| tkelsey | woodster_: thanks, input always good! | 20:45 |
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| hyakuhei | rellerreller: Yes, for this plugin we'd have to do wrapping in the barbican process although steps can be taken to make the KEK as short-lived as possible | 20:46 |
| hyakuhei | Basically we can't do it as an internal operation to the HSM without KMIP | 20:46 |
| hyakuhei | We're investing time in both as you know but we'd like to get this in first as we have some deployments that can immediately leverage it and various customer types waiting for it | 20:47 |
| tkelsey | so the main question on the review page is about how the KEK is retrieved. We need to do the DEK unwrapping locally and request the KEK from the HSM on demand only when needed. | 20:47 |
| tkelsey | this has some security implications, though its better than a local KEK and no HSM. Its a sort of half way solution until we can have KMIP | 20:49 |
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| hyakuhei | I'd also be interested in smart ideas around how to make the KEK as short-lived as possible / smart ways to purge it (given pythons various magics) | 20:49 |
| tkelsey | hyakuhei: +1 yeah that would be very interesting | 20:49 |
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| rellerreller | I don't understand "until we can have KMIP." What happens then? | 20:51 |
| hyakuhei | rellerreller: Our preferred way to interact with any HSM would be KMIP | 20:51 |
| tkelsey | rellerreller: well the idea is that once we use KMIP to communicate with the HSM then we have more options | 20:52 |
| hyakuhei | Which, from what I undertand, would allow us to offload keywrapping to the HSM completely | 20:52 |
| woodster_ | hyakuhei, so there isn't a PKCS11 sort of interface for it, correct? That's what we use with SafeNet | 20:52 |
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| rellerreller | But KMIP does not have encrypt/decrypt functionality as far as I know. | 20:52 |
| hyakuhei | tkelsey: ? | 20:52 |
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| hyakuhei | I'll have to get back to you on PKCS11 | 20:54 |
| hyakuhei | but being slightly more abstract | 20:54 |
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| hyakuhei | I suppose the main difference is the level of Barbican comrpomise required to access DEKs | 20:54 |
| redrobot | We're running short on time, but yeah it will definitely be interesting to discuss this at the summit. | 20:55 |
| woodster_ | tkelsey, hyakuhei, just trying to understand DEK vs KEK above...is DEK the secret you are encrypting with the KEK? | 20:55 |
| rm_work | so, before we run out of time: python-barbicanclient 3.0 -- any idea about a release date/cutoff? I think most of the major things have merged now, right? Is the keystone session rewrite the last one that's waiting to merge? | 20:55 |
| hyakuhei | In the case of on-HSM wrapping, execution would be required inside Barbican to send/receive DEKs to the HSM. | 20:55 |
| redrobot | rm_work and orders... gotta get typed orders finished. | 20:55 |
| rm_work | redrobot: ah, typed orders are in 3.0? | 20:55 |
| tkelsey | woodster_: yes thats right | 20:56 |
| rm_work | thought maybe those would be for 3.1 | 20:56 |
| hyakuhei | more discussion required I guess, thanks for the discussion guys | 20:56 |
| redrobot | rm_work current orders don't work with Juno Final :( | 20:56 |
| tkelsey | woodster_: the KEK is used to encrypt the DEK, the DEK is stored locally in Barbican, the KEK is pulled form the HSM on demand | 20:56 |
| rm_work | so if you've got to finish coding that still, I'm guessing chances of getting it out before the end of the week are slim | 20:56 |
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| rm_work | redrobot: let me know if you have any questions about decisions I made while doing typed containers <_< | 20:57 |
| redrobot | rm_work yeah, end of week would be awesome, but we need mroe reviewers | 20:57 |
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| rm_work | well, all I can give you is eyes and a +1, but let me know when it's up | 20:57 |
| woodster_ | redrobot, and you thought we had nothing to talk about an hour ago! | 20:57 |
| redrobot | woodster_ hehe, yeah. | 20:58 |
| redrobot | Everyon please feel free to add to the agenda on the wiki. | 20:58 |
| alee | tkelsey, and when you "have KMIP", you'll be able to make an api call that does the decryption of the DEK on the HSM? | 20:58 |
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| redrobot | #endmeeting | 20:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Oct 20 20:59:35 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/barbican/2014/barbican.2014-10-20-20.01.html | 20:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/barbican/2014/barbican.2014-10-20-20.01.txt | 20:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/barbican/2014/barbican.2014-10-20-20.01.log.html | 20:59 |
| tkelsey | alee: yes that is right, at least as far as my understanding goes | 20:59 |
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| alee | tkelsey, we should prob move this back to openstack-barbican | 21:00 |
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| tkelsey | alee: i'll join the room | 21:00 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: Zuul erroneously marked some changes as having merge conflicts. Those changes have been added to the check queue to be rechecked and will be automatically updated when complete. | 21:21 | |
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