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| tbarron | #startmeeting manila | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Oct 18 15:00:52 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tbarron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'manila' | 15:00 |
| gouthamr | o/ | 15:01 |
| bswartz | .o/ | 15:01 |
| ganso | hello | 15:01 |
| erlon__ | hey | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping vkmc | 15:01 |
| amito | hello .o/ | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping dustins | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping erlon | 15:01 |
| dustins | \o | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping xyang | 15:01 |
| xyang | hi | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping tpsilva | 15:02 |
| tbarron | I think those are all the folks from the ping list who are not away | 15:02 |
| tbarron | Hi all! | 15:02 |
| tbarron | Agenda: | 15:03 |
| tbarron | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila/Meetings | 15:03 |
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| tbarron | #topic announcements | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:03 | |
| tbarron | Five of us will not be here next week - we're at an offsite meeting - so: | 15:04 |
| tbarron | I'm one of the five. | 15:04 |
| tbarron | So: | 15:04 |
| tbarron | 1) does someone else want to chair the meeting next week? | 15:04 |
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| tbarron | or | 15:04 |
| tbarron | 2) should we skip a week? | 15:05 |
| tbarron | crickets | 15:05 |
| bswartz | Skipping is fine | 15:05 |
| bswartz | I sounds like we would lack quorum anyways | 15:05 |
| tbarron | anyone to the contrary? | 15:06 |
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| ganso | bswartz: +1 | 15:06 |
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| tbarron | #action tbarron will send email that we're skipping next week's meeting | 15:06 |
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| dustins | Sounds good to me | 15:06 |
| bswartz | Is the offsite thing a RedHat meeting? | 15:06 |
| tbarron | bswartz: yeah, in Raleigh, which is offsite for all of us but dustin | 15:07 |
| bswartz | Because NetApp has a big thing next week too | 15:07 |
| tbarron | dustins is having and onsite offsite | 15:07 |
| tbarron | bswartz: curious | 15:07 |
| tbarron | bswartz: and All Things Open is overlapping I think | 15:07 |
| dustins | Far enough away for it to be offsite, close enough to not get a hotel :P | 15:08 |
| * gouthamr a party in Las Vegas | 15:08 | |
| * bswartz thought that dustins lived so far from town that everything is offsite | 15:08 | |
| dustins | bswartz: So did I :D | 15:08 |
| tbarron | Moving on, summit/Forum topics are up: | 15:08 |
| * dustins dreads two hours of commuting everyday next week | 15:08 | |
| tbarron | #link https://www.openstack.org/summit/berlin-2018/summit-schedule/global-search?t=manila | 15:08 |
| dustins | For a good reason, at least :) | 15:08 |
| tbarron | ^^^^ looks like lots of manila content | 15:09 |
| dustins | Oh wow, that's awesome! | 15:09 |
| tbarron | Next, I want to call attention to a change to cycle-with-milestones projects like manila proper | 15:11 |
| tbarron | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2018-September/135088.html | 15:11 |
| tbarron | We no longer do milestone releases | 15:11 |
| tbarron | But still pay attention to milestones for tracking purposes. | 15:12 |
| tbarron | Any questions/comments on this change? | 15:12 |
| bswartz | Interesting | 15:12 |
| bswartz | A sign of stability I guess | 15:12 |
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| tbarron | Any other announcements? | 15:13 |
| tbarron | #topic Code Review Guideline up for review | 15:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Code Review Guideline up for review (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:13 | |
| tbarron | gouthamr: you're up | 15:13 |
| tbarron | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/609598/ | 15:13 |
| gouthamr | hi, ty tbarron | 15:13 |
| gouthamr | i put that up last week, and have been having some good discussions on it, just a pointer for the rest of us to take a look as well :) | 15:14 |
| gouthamr | that's all i had about that | 15:15 |
| tbarron | Everyone should pay attention to the sections on | 15:16 |
| tbarron | Affiliation, Ninja merging, and Vendor code and review. | 15:16 |
| tbarron | Any other remarks on this topic now? | 15:17 |
| * dustins makes a point to look it over | 15:17 | |
| bswartz | I'm not sure we want to document the process of ninja merging | 15:17 |
| bswartz | It's kind of like talking about fight club | 15:18 |
| tbarron | lol | 15:18 |
| gouthamr | :P | 15:18 |
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| ganso | bswartz: you just broke #1 rule | 15:18 |
| bswartz | What is the first rule of fight club? | 15:18 |
| luizbag | you never talk about fight club | 15:18 |
| bswartz | I feel the same way about ninja merges | 15:19 |
| tbarron | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC1yHLp9bWA | 15:19 |
| tbarron | let's discuss this subject some more | 15:19 |
| tbarron | in the review :) | 15:19 |
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| bswartz | Okay | 15:20 |
| gouthamr | +1 ty everyone | 15:20 |
| tbarron | #topic access rule prioritization | 15:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "access rule prioritization (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:20 | |
| tbarron | ganso, that's you! | 15:20 |
| ganso | tbarron: thanks | 15:20 |
| ganso | While testing the patch, our team found something that we believe to be an issue | 15:20 |
| ganso | the spec proposes that, 1) when there are conflicting rules under the same priority, the behavior will be undefined | 15:21 |
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| ganso | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/552935/19/specs/rocky/priority-for-access-rules.rst@82 | 15:21 |
| bswartz | This is intentional I think | 15:22 |
| bswartz | For backwards compatibility | 15:22 |
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| ganso | 2) after this change merges, drivers that reorder rules should stop doing so | 15:22 |
| bswartz | The prior behavior is undefined, so we preserve whatever that undefined behavior is when there's a tie | 15:22 |
| ganso | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/552935/19/specs/rocky/priority-for-access-rules.rst@302 | 15:22 |
| ganso | the issue is: some backends do not have "undefined" behavior. Their behavior is defined and deterministic | 15:22 |
| bswartz | So they match the spec then by definition | 15:23 |
| ganso | I will give an example | 15:23 |
| bswartz | Undefined just means you can do whatever you want and it will be considered correct by the spec | 15:23 |
| ganso | if a driver reorders the rule today to achieve a certain behavior, after the priorization patch merges, and the reordering is removed from the drivers | 15:24 |
| ganso | the behavior will not be the same when there are conflicting rules under the same priority | 15:24 |
| bswartz | In practice we should encourage backends to break ties in exactly the way they used to handle conflicts before priorities existed | 15:24 |
| tbarron | bswartz: I think the issue is that the backend won't know that there is a tie. | 15:24 |
| bswartz | But the spec doesn't require this | 15:25 |
| tbarron | there will be a sort before the back end sees the rule set | 15:25 |
| bswartz | I see | 15:25 |
| * bswartz headdesk | 15:25 | |
| tbarron | so the back end can't preserve *exactly* the same behavior | 15:25 |
| ganso | our team disagrees with removing the reordering of rules once the patch lands because we would like to retain the behavior for the scenario I described. That is, we want to continue reordering rules when there are conflicting rules with the same priority | 15:25 |
| ganso | tbarron: yes | 15:26 |
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| tbarron | ganso: but you might violate the prioritization for non-ties! | 15:26 |
| bswartz | Is there a way we can add a capability so the drivers can declare support for rule priority and do the sorting themselves? | 15:26 |
| ganso | tbarron: we want to change to code to take the other priorities into consideration | 15:26 |
| ganso | bswartz: if we do that, the user experience will be inconsistent | 15:27 |
| bswartz | tbarron: drivers can do that anyways | 15:27 |
| ganso | tbarron: s/change to code/change the code | 15:27 |
| tbarron | bswartz: ? they shouldn't, right? | 15:27 |
| bswartz | tbarron: only tests cases can enforce that they don't | 15:27 |
| bswartz | And tests cases can enforce correct behavior however we implement it internally | 15:28 |
| bswartz | So I propose a driver capability that the manager can query before it performs the sort | 15:28 |
| bswartz | Obviously the capability will default to false | 15:28 |
| tbarron | Do any back ends besides NetApp sort the rules now? | 15:29 |
| bswartz | We might not have the right people in the room to answer that | 15:29 |
| tbarron | We may be able to just tie-break in the manager in a way that is consistent with current practice and then | 15:29 |
| tbarron | not have to add extra complexity. | 15:29 |
| bswartz | tbarron: if the desire is the implement tie breaking in the manager in a consistent way, then we should write that way into the spec so it's clear | 15:30 |
| tbarron | All back ends would stop sorting themselves and we'd have the correct behavior. | 15:30 |
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| tbarron | bswartz: I agree that we should write how the manager will tie break in the spec. | 15:30 |
| ganso | tbarron, bswartz: I agree with that, but apparently this was discussed in the spec and people agreed to not do that | 15:30 |
| bswartz | If we want to preserve legacy behavior (or flexibility to do interesting things) then leaving it undefined makes more sense, and we should give drivers freedom to sort the list how they choose | 15:31 |
| bswartz | But in any case, write tests that ensure drivers conform to the spec at least | 15:31 |
| ganso | bswartz: indeed, as the spec puts it, the undefined behavior couldn't be tested consistently | 15:32 |
| bswartz | You don't test undefined behavior, you test the defined behavior | 15:32 |
| ganso | tbarron: it seems we don't have the spec owner here to discuss, how would we approach this? | 15:33 |
| tbarron | The spec does not say drivers can just do whatever they want, only that when there are conflicts that it is undefined. | 15:33 |
| ganso | bswartz: yes, it creates a test gap | 15:33 |
| ganso | tbarron: I'm fine with that statement, I am against not being able to reorder the rules in the driver anymore, as stated in the spec | 15:34 |
| bswartz | tbarron: agree | 15:34 |
| tbarron | ganso: how will you know which rules you can re-order? | 15:34 |
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| tbarron | ganso: how will you know you don't violate the expressed priority? | 15:35 |
| ganso | tbarron: we can read the 'priority' field within the driver | 15:35 |
| tbarron | ganso: it's not in the rules given to you | 15:35 |
| ganso | tbarron: we will sort only the group of rules within the same priority | 15:35 |
| ganso | tbarron: according to my team tests, it is | 15:35 |
| tbarron | ganso: how will you know that group | 15:36 |
| ganso | tbarron: the model is being passed to the driver | 15:36 |
| tbarron | ganso: oh I thought just the rules were passed, in an order, with no priority | 15:36 |
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| tbarron | ganso: if you have the priority info, without having to do a database lookup from the driver, then sure | 15:37 |
| ganso | tbarron: and even if this is a bug and the priority shouldn't be passed, then I disagree with it not being passed, and without it we wouldn't be able to accomplish what I am proposing | 15:37 |
| gouthamr | yeah, we discussed passing the priority down to the drivers on the review/spec and agreed to do it iirc | 15:38 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: ok, i missed that | 15:38 |
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| ganso | probably the model shouldn't be passed, but a dictionary containing the regular access fields and the priority should | 15:39 |
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| tbarron | then there's no issue with back ends maintaining current tie-breaking behavior, right? | 15:39 |
| ganso | tbarron: yes, assuming they just reorder what falls in the "undefined" behavior | 15:40 |
| tbarron | I think we can take any remaining discussioon to the review then. | 15:41 |
| ganso | ok | 15:41 |
| tbarron | ganso: you still need to change your back end not to do a general sort | 15:41 |
| ganso | glad to reach agreement =) | 15:41 |
| ganso | tbarron: yes, we will | 15:41 |
| tbarron | ganso: just scope it to the ties | 15:41 |
| ganso | tbarron: yup | 15:41 |
| tbarron | #topic planning our work | 15:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "planning our work (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:41 | |
| tbarron | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Manila/SteinCycle#Priority_for_Access_Rules | 15:42 |
| tbarron | Spec approval deadline is 8 November | 15:42 |
| tbarron | The main thing on this topic that I want to cover today is | 15:42 |
| tbarron | which specs will be proposed. | 15:43 |
| tbarron | ganso you have three, two of which are in the work plan. | 15:43 |
| ganso | tbarron: actually 3, if you refresh the page right now | 15:43 |
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| tbarron | ganso++ | 15:43 |
| tbarron | Who else is planning on doing a spec? | 15:44 |
| * tbarron thinks not all work requires specs but | 15:44 | |
| gouthamr | i am, for a few things that i raised BPs for | 15:44 |
| gouthamr | heh, read my mind | 15:44 |
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| tbarron | if you are going to do a spec please post a review for it, | 15:45 |
| gouthamr | sure | 15:45 |
| tbarron | even if you mark it WIP and it doesn't have anything yet | 15:45 |
| tbarron | and put the link in the work plan. | 15:45 |
| gouthamr | yessir | 15:45 |
| tbarron | I think a plan of work may be useful as a "spec" for things like OSC and SDK | 15:46 |
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| tbarron | where we hope to divide and conquer on the actual tasks. | 15:46 |
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| tbarron | That's all I have on this topic for this week. | 15:47 |
| tbarron | #topic Bugs! | 15:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs! (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:47 | |
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| tbarron | dustins: you are the man | 15:47 |
| gouthamr | the SDK has a workplan on storyboard, i will add a link to the wiki (if it hasn't been already) | 15:47 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: and that's fine, no spec needed | 15:47 |
| * dustins gathers items | 15:47 | |
| dustins | #link: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/manila-bug-triage-pad | 15:48 |
| tbarron | let's get the workplans in place by M1 or spec review time | 15:48 |
| dustins | #link: https://bugs.launchpad.net/manila/+bug/1796986 | 15:48 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1796986 in python-manilaclient "[doc] No documentation on user messages" [High,Triaged] | 15:48 |
| dustins | So this one has already been triaged, we just need some volunteers to work on it | 15:49 |
| dustins | And we should really make sure that no new features go into Manila without the corresponding documentation for how to interact with it | 15:49 |
| tbarron | unfortunately the folks who implemented user messages - ameade and jprovazn - aren't with us | 15:50 |
| * gouthamr it's so straightforward it doesn't need docs :P | 15:50 | |
| dustins | tbarron: Indeed :( | 15:50 |
| tbarron | well the doc could be quite brief | 15:50 |
| dustins | So I need a volunteer for someone to take up the mantle to have a look at this | 15:50 |
| tbarron | show the workflow for a characteristic error | 15:50 |
| dustins | And tbarron is right, there's not anything particularly difficult about this | 15:51 |
| tbarron | dustins: you can give the bug to me but I disagree with High priority | 15:51 |
| dustins | jgrosso_: Would be a good opportunity to get a commit into Manila and go through that workflow :) | 15:51 |
| gouthamr | if anyone is inspired, i wrote this for an internal doc team: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/gzbnc5Ztnm82rbR3zQV91A | 15:52 |
| tbarron | dustins: if I take it it will be a bit | 15:52 |
| dustins | tbarron: I can lower priority if you'd like | 15:52 |
| gouthamr | omy | 15:52 |
| jgrosso_ | ok | 15:52 |
| tbarron | jgrosso_ just got voluntold :) | 15:52 |
| dustins | I just wanted to call attention to the fact that we have features in our code that have no documentation for how to use them, maybe more of a "medium" thing | 15:53 |
| gouthamr | replace link: http://paste.openstack.org/show/732438/ | 15:53 |
| dustins | No one's data is getting destroyed after all :) | 15:53 |
| jgrosso_ | :) | 15:53 |
| dustins | tbarron: The wonders of delegation | 15:53 |
| dustins | #action: dustins to work with jgrosso_ to get the documentation in | 15:54 |
| dustins | #link: https://bugs.launchpad.net/manila-ui/+bug/1624425 | 15:54 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1624425 in manila-ui ""Set as Active" button shown for replicas in transitional states" [Low,New] | 15:54 |
| dustins | I've got a few UI bugs to air out, so let's start with this one | 15:54 |
| dustins | And yes, most of these are quite old | 15:55 |
| bswartz | Who is working on manila-ui now? | 15:55 |
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| dustins | bswartz: I was hoping you could tell me :) | 15:55 |
| bswartz | It requires some special skills that we don't all have | 15:55 |
| dustins | I know vkmc has done some work with it in the past | 15:55 |
| dustins | But I wouldn't say she owns it | 15:56 |
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| bswartz | That one seems like an easy bug, but it needs someone familiar with the UI | 15:56 |
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| bswartz | Or maybe a pairing of someone with UI experience and someone with replication experience | 15:56 |
| dustins | Agreed, and it need not require a NetApp backend, as it seems like it effects all replication workflows | 15:57 |
| dustins | Any volunteers? | 15:57 |
| tbarron | dustins: seems like we need to start by confirming that it's still an issue? | 15:57 |
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| dustins | tbarron: Yes, and I called that out in a comment on the bug | 15:57 |
| tbarron | dustins: you need a back end that slow enough replicating to show the issue | 15:57 |
| tbarron | :) | 15:57 |
| * tbarron is just messing around | 15:58 | |
| gouthamr | i think this is a low-hanging-fruit, please mark it so in case we have any wayward contributors | 15:58 |
| dustins | A lot has changed in the last two years, so it's possible that this has just gone away, but I don't think that's the case | 15:58 |
| dustins | gouthamr: Wilco | 15:58 |
| * dustins adds "low-hanging-fruit" tag | 15:58 | |
| dustins | #link: https://bugs.launchpad.net/manila-ui/+bug/1576776 | 15:59 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1576776 in manila-ui "Test coverage is too small" [Low,Triaged] | 15:59 |
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| dustins | tl;dr We want to improve test coverage in Manila UI | 15:59 |
| dustins | And need volunteers for such | 15:59 |
| ganso | time check | 15:59 |
| * tbarron doesn't like bugs with general topics like that | 15:59 | |
| tbarron | let's follow up in #openstack-manila | 16:00 |
| tbarron | Thanks everyone! | 16:00 |
| dustins | Sounds good | 16:00 |
| tbarron | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Documentation (Meeting topic: trove)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Oct 18 16:00:29 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-10-18-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-10-18-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-10-18-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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