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| tbarron | #startmeeting manila | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| * bswartz looks around for manila ppl | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Nov 8 15:00:52 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tbarron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'manila' | 15:00 |
| bswartz | .o/ | 15:01 |
| tbarron | hey ben | 15:01 |
| gouthamr | o/ | 15:01 |
| tbarron | let's wait a min ... | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping ganso | 15:01 |
| ganso | hello | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping vkmc | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping dustins | 15:01 |
| vkmc | o/ | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping zhongjun | 15:02 |
| dustins | Ahoy | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping xyang | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping markstur | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping toabctl | 15:02 |
| xyang | hi | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping erlon | 15:02 |
| tbarron | piing tpsilva | 15:02 |
| xyang | so early | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping amito | 15:02 |
| tbarron | xyang: so late :) | 15:03 |
| tbarron | I'm in Rome and it's time for an apertiv. | 15:03 |
| tbarron | Hi all, let's get going. | 15:03 |
| amito | Hey | 15:03 |
| tbarron | #chair bswartz | 15:04 |
| openstack | Current chairs: bswartz tbarron | 15:04 |
| amito | tbarron: Oh in Rome already | 15:04 |
| tbarron | just in case, and also | 15:04 |
| tbarron | bswartz will be picking up chair part way through | 15:04 |
| tbarron | I's even later for amito :) | 15:04 |
| tbarron | Hello all! | 15:04 |
| tbarron | #topic announcements | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:04 | |
| tbarron | Summit is next week. | 15:05 |
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| tbarron | I think ganso, erlon, tpsilva, amito, vkmc, and myself will be there. | 15:05 |
| tbarron | anyone else? | 15:05 |
| tbarron | We have a pretty good set of sessions involving manila topics: | 15:05 |
| tbarron | #link https://www.openstack.org/summit/berlin-2018/summit-schedule/global-search?t=manila | 15:06 |
| tbarron | also one on Ceph day (monday) | 15:06 |
| tbarron | #link https://ceph.com/cephdays/ceph-day-berlin/ | 15:06 |
| tbarron | amito may be arranging a get together Tuesday night | 15:07 |
| tbarron | amito: I note that cinder is thinking the same way if we want to see if we can piggy-back | 15:07 |
| tbarron | Anything else on summit? | 15:07 |
| amito | It seems like there's a RH party on Tuesday | 15:07 |
| tbarron | amito: Monday | 15:07 |
| *** dtrainor has quit IRC | 15:07 | |
| vkmc | both | 15:07 |
| amito | RH+Trilio | 15:07 |
| tbarron | amito: ah, that's a difft thing. We don't do manila bakup atm. | 15:08 |
| amito | Maybe Wednesday and move Cinder as well? | 15:08 |
| amito | lol | 15:08 |
| tbarron | amito: Wednesday is pub crawl | 15:08 |
| amito | Oh | 15:08 |
| tbarron | amito: let's take it to #openstack-manila | 15:08 |
| amito | Where do I sign up? (for the pub crawl, lol) | 15:09 |
| tbarron | sounds like trilio and RH want inifinidat for cinder ... | 15:09 |
| tbarron | amito: there's a link I think off the main summit page | 15:09 |
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| tbarron | amito: ping me if you don't find it | 15:09 |
| amito | I'll check that, thanks tbarron | 15:09 |
| tbarron | OK, next question. | 15:09 |
| amito | So we'll have the dinner on Tue. | 15:09 |
| tbarron | Do we meet next week? | 15:09 |
| bswartz | I can meet | 15:10 |
| tbarron | amito: just get Trilio to invite us all and we can grab a corner table :) not many of us. | 15:10 |
| tbarron | I can too. | 15:10 |
| bswartz | I'm pretty sure 2 weeks from now most of us cannot | 15:10 |
| bswartz | So if we cancel next week we'll be going 3 weeks between meetings | 15:10 |
| tbarron | And as I think we'll see ^^ and that we have unfinished spec review business. | 15:11 |
| tbarron | OK, let's meet. | 15:11 |
| tbarron | Anyone who can not attend next week? | 15:11 |
| gouthamr | i can, virtual-beer'o'clock same time next week | 15:12 |
| tbarron | #agreed we will meet next week as usual even though it's summit week | 15:12 |
| tbarron | #topic spec reviews | 15:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "spec reviews (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:12 | |
| bswartz | gouthamr: beer-o-clock is 7am for you? | 15:12 |
| tbarron | So it's spec deadline but we're really just now in the middle of all these reviews! | 15:12 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: it can be if we want it to be :D | 15:12 |
| tbarron | And I think the reviews are making progress. | 15:12 |
| tbarron | But we started reviewing late -- again. | 15:13 |
| tbarron | I honestly think there is too much work associated with these reveiws to complete it all this cycle but -- | 15:13 |
| tbarron | whether I'm right about that or not -- it seems a shame | 15:13 |
| tbarron | to lose momentum and not get the design work that is ongoing completed. | 15:14 |
| tbarron | There, that's what I have to say abou this. | 15:14 |
| tbarron | Thoughts from others? | 15:14 |
| ganso | tbarron: I agree that reviews should have started earlier | 15:14 |
| bswartz | Merging a spec isn't a guarantee that we'll merge a feature in the same release | 15:14 |
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| tbarron | And some of them (not pointing at you ganso) should have been posted earlier, but they were posted by notable slackers :) | 15:15 |
| bswartz | But not merging a spec is a guarantee we won't merge a feature | 15:15 |
| * tbarron is messing around obviously | 15:15 | |
| tbarron | bswartz: ++ | 15:15 |
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| tbarron | So I want to propose that we extend the deadline until 29 November. | 15:16 |
| bswartz | Blanket extension? | 15:16 |
| tbarron | Some of us will be at summit next week and will have limited bandwidth. | 15:16 |
| tbarron | bswartz: not for any new submissions, but for the four submitted. | 15:16 |
| bswartz | Right, okay | 15:16 |
| gouthamr | ~erm, notable slacker would like to add one more~ | 15:17 |
| tbarron | Because I think they are worth thinking about collectively and seeing if we can get agreement on them. | 15:17 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: you already have two if you refresh the agenda | 15:17 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: do you have three in mind? | 15:17 |
| gouthamr | oh, nope, just two | 15:17 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: it's only becasuse I honestly think that both of those you proposed are things that we | 15:18 |
| tbarron | should think about collectively now, while we're doing it, that I'm not being a meanie about them. | 15:18 |
| tbarron | No guarantee that I'll agree with them. I haven't had time to study much more than the problem statement. | 15:19 |
| gouthamr | sure, thank you for including the link, i will keep my elevator pitch ready :) | 15:19 |
| tbarron | But I agree with the problem staements and think that if in the month of Novmember we could as a tem | 15:19 |
| tbarron | as a team | 15:19 |
| *** ttsiouts has quit IRC | 15:19 | |
| tbarron | get good design in place for the big residual DHSS=True issues and | 15:19 |
| tbarron | for the manila AZ usage and storage-protocol/capability discovery | 15:20 |
| tbarron | we'd actually have accomplished some good work in this spec cycle. | 15:20 |
| tbarron | Contrary views? | 15:21 |
| bswartz | You're arguing for getting all 4 specs in shape in the next 3 weeks? | 15:21 |
| tbarron | The 29 November date is a bit out but we have summit and US Thanksgiving (big football holidy) in that window. | 15:21 |
| tbarron | bswartz: Yes. | 15:21 |
| bswartz | Is there any priority order we could put on them | 15:22 |
| bswartz | ? | 15:22 |
| tbarron | good question. | 15:22 |
| bswartz | If push comes to shove and we can't get them all done? | 15:22 |
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| tbarron | ganso's forst priority was manage/unmanage for share servers, enabling that capability for DHSS=True | 15:22 |
| tbarron | first | 15:23 |
| ganso | tbarron: yes | 15:23 |
| tbarron | I think that ones very close (even though it's not my personal first priotiry) | 15:23 |
| tbarron | bswartz already +2ed it, then ganso had to tweak because I -1ed but | 15:23 |
| tbarron | I'm pretty much OK with it now. | 15:24 |
| bswartz | I'm inclined to follow the priorities of the spec authors, because they'll also be implementing in their own priority orders (presumably) | 15:24 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: vkmc: can you look at this one this week? | 15:24 |
| tbarron | bswartz: +1 | 15:24 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: ack | 15:24 |
| vkmc | tbarron, sure thing | 15:24 |
| tbarron | ok then his next prio was the tough one, share networks spanning subnets. | 15:25 |
| tbarron | my next prio would be gouthamr's AZ spec | 15:25 |
| tbarron | but it came in late | 15:25 |
| bswartz | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/616123 | 15:25 |
| tbarron | bswartz: I'm going to turn over chair to you since you met with ganso and gouthmr on that one | 15:26 |
| tbarron | And I have to drop the meeting soon. | 15:26 |
| tbarron | I will read the log (bouncer and recorded) but | 15:26 |
| bswartz | okay should we go over all the specs in teh agenda? | 15:26 |
| bswartz | Or start with ^ | 15:26 |
| tbarron | bswartz: probably set priorities first as you suggested, then | 15:26 |
| tbarron | maybe dig into the tough one given your meeting? | 15:26 |
| * bswartz sees 5 links | 15:26 | |
| bswartz | Is it 4 or 5 specs? | 15:27 |
| tbarron | two are for the extend share networks work | 15:27 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: i'm writing another one which makes it 5 | 15:27 |
| bswartz | Wait that makes 6 | 15:27 |
| tbarron | one is gouthamr's orignal from newton moved over | 15:27 |
| bswartz | Okay | 15:27 |
| bswartz | Let's just go in order, and try to go fast | 15:27 |
| bswartz | Enjoy your vacation tbarron! | 15:27 |
| * bswartz salutes | 15:27 | |
| bswartz | #topic Manage/Unmanage Share Servers | 15:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Manage/Unmanage Share Servers (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:28 | |
| bswartz | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/607342 | 15:28 |
| tbarron | bswartz: thank you! | 15:28 |
| vkmc | babai tbarron :) | 15:28 |
| bswartz | Okay as mentioned before, I'm okay with this as of PS11 | 15:28 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: ++ enjoy the wine/food + more wine | 15:28 |
| vkmc | enjoy | 15:29 |
| ganso | tbarron: and don't forget italian pasta | 15:29 |
| bswartz | There's been a lot of discussion since my +2 | 15:29 |
| amito | enjoy tbarron! | 15:29 |
| bswartz | Anything left to discuss on this or do we just need final reviews? | 15:29 |
| ganso | bswartz: I think we only need the final reviews, no major concerns raised since the first revision | 15:29 |
| bswartz | going once... | 15:29 |
| gouthamr | nope, will take a look | 15:30 |
| bswartz | twice... | 15:30 |
| bswartz | #topic Share Networks Span Subnets | 15:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Share Networks Span Subnets (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:30 | |
| bswartz | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/391805/ | 15:30 |
| bswartz | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/615947/1 | 15:30 |
| bswartz | So this is a topic that goes back years | 15:30 |
| bswartz | It's a thorny topic that we've spend a lot of time discussion in front of whiteboards at various venues | 15:31 |
| bswartz | Gouthamr proposed a spec long ago that we agreed to, but it was never implemented | 15:31 |
| bswartz | Ganso wants to do that work, plus more, to complete the picture | 15:31 |
| bswartz | I like the idea of having a comprehensive design, even if the implementation has to be phased over longer than 1 release | 15:32 |
| bswartz | Because if we leave parts of the design undecided, it creates risk that the implementation might go in the wrong direction | 15:32 |
| ganso | bswartz: correction, for now my commitment it to do just that work. I can propose the "plus more", but I will not commit | 15:33 |
| ganso | bswartz: I will not commit *at this titme | 15:33 |
| ganso | s/titme/time | 15:33 |
| bswartz | ganso: I just meant you were volunteering to complete the design portion | 15:33 |
| ganso | bswartz: oh ok | 15:33 |
| bswartz | I really like where this design seems to have ended up, even though it probably a ton of work to make it reality | 15:33 |
| bswartz | ganso: can you outline the relationship between the 2 specs so everyone understand why it's split? | 15:34 |
| ganso | bswartz: sure | 15:34 |
| ganso | so in summary | 15:34 |
| ganso | When we introduced IPv6, we noticed that we weren't able to have share servers serving export locations in IPv4 and IPv6 at the same time | 15:34 |
| ganso | it is not a very good user experience to not be able to serve your shares in IPv4+IPv6, if the hosts that could consume those shares can have IPv4+IPv6 | 15:35 |
| ganso | to accomplish that, we would need to allow a share network to be assigned to at least 2 subnets | 15:36 |
| ganso | and if we can do 2, we could even do more, but that's another bonus use case | 15:36 |
| ganso | in the first design of the Replication in DHSS=True spec, we don't change that share network subnet limitation, so the IPv4+IPv6 problem remains | 15:37 |
| ganso | but we make changes to the share network APIs that could conflict with the work to improve the IPv4+IPv6 and we desire to do in the future | 15:38 |
| bswartz | Yeah we're trying to address multiple problems with these specs | 15:38 |
| bswartz | Cleaning up all the loose ends from the original share-networks design | 15:38 |
| ganso | so our current plan of attack is to design what we plan to work on in the future to solve the IPv4+IPv6 share servers situation, so we can safely implement Replication in DHSS=True knowing we won't have problems in the future | 15:39 |
| ganso | we've agreed to a phased implementation, but we need to design these phases first, before start implementing them | 15:40 |
| ganso | <end of summary> | 15:41 |
| bswartz | So IMO this spec should answer all the questions regarding how share networks will eventually work | 15:41 |
| bswartz | Including how we'll get dual IPv4/IPv6 support for share servers | 15:41 |
| bswartz | How share servers will support replication | 15:42 |
| bswartz | And how share servers will support multiple subnets | 15:42 |
| bswartz | In particular, changes to the driver interface are needed | 15:42 |
| bswartz | And there will need to be a capability/versioning exercise similar to what happened with access rules | 15:43 |
| bswartz | ganso has suggested that for this release the only thing we might get is the replication (multi-AZ) support which could be done without changing the driver interface yet | 15:43 |
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| bswartz | But I'd still like to have written down where we eventually plan to go with share networks so we can make sure that the stein phase of this work doesn't conflict with that | 15:44 |
| bswartz | Seem reasonable? | 15:44 |
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| * bswartz looks at clock | 15:45 | |
| ganso | bswartz: yep | 15:45 |
| bswartz | Better keep moving | 15:45 |
| bswartz | #topic Create share from snapshots in another pool or back end | 15:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Create share from snapshots in another pool or back end (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:45 | |
| bswartz | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/609537/ | 15:45 |
| ganso | ok that is a good one | 15:45 |
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| ganso | most of the feedback have been incorporated into the spec | 15:46 |
| ganso | except one | 15:46 |
| ganso | "I would like to see a mechanism to tell Manila, on a per-share-create basis, that it should ignore the location of the snapshot when scheduling the new share. This would be a scheduler hint, which the scheduler could safely ignore, but would result in dramatically better load balancing in the situation where a large number of shares were created from the same snapshot, and the end user had some knowledge of the | 15:46 |
| ganso | layout of the storage backends." | 15:46 |
| bswartz | This is a solution to the practical issue we have where if you always create shares from snapshots, your shares all get crowded on the same pool | 15:46 |
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| bswartz | ganso: what is the likelihood this gets implemented in Stein? | 15:46 |
| ganso | bswartz: if only this and manage/unmanage merges, it is very likely | 15:47 |
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| bswartz | okay but which is higher priority in your mind? | 15:47 |
| ganso | 1) manage/unmanage, 2) replication, 3) this one | 15:48 |
| ganso | if only 1) and 3) merge | 15:48 |
| ganso | then they will be implemented | 15:48 |
| ganso | if all 3 merge | 15:48 |
| bswartz | Okay | 15:48 |
| ganso | #3 will most likely not be implemented in Stein | 15:48 |
| bswartz | This one seems like less of a bear to implement for sure | 15:48 |
| bswartz | But there are some complex issues to consider | 15:48 |
| ganso | yea it doesn't seem to be a lot of code | 15:48 |
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| bswartz | gouthamr: have you read this one? | 15:49 |
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| ganso | so in summary, the user will be able to choose the AZ to create a share from snapshot in | 15:49 |
| bswartz | It might be only tbarron and I have any opinions so far | 15:49 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: not yet, but familiar with the idea/motivation - so will do | 15:49 |
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| amito | Might be a stupid question but... how is create share in another pool different than manage share when we're talking about two different backends? | 15:49 |
| ganso | and there will be capabilities that allow manila to determine a compatible destination host | 15:49 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: the issue that we need to sort out is how the cross-pool scheduling gets triggered | 15:50 |
| amito | (I read through the spec) | 15:50 |
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| bswartz | ganso and I were debating the extent to which end-users should be empowered to make that happen | 15:50 |
| bswartz | because you can make the argument that only the administrator should know or care about this particular problem | 15:50 |
| ganso | and, even if the same AZ is chosen, there is a balancing rule (suggested by tbarron) to allow the admin to have some control on whether a share is created in the same pool with COW efficiency, or in another backend, for the purpose of capacity balancing | 15:50 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: ah, and the current direction is "AZ"? | 15:50 |
| bswartz | The problem from my perspective is that, to make an ideal decision, you need to know if a particular snapshot will only be cloned a small number of times, or whether it will be cloned a large number of times | 15:51 |
| bswartz | Only an end user can understand the usage patterns of the snapshots | 15:51 |
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| bswartz | If you err on the side of keeping things on the same pool, you have the same problem we have today | 15:52 |
| ganso | bswartz suggests that a parameter in the "create share API" should be added to force load balancing. I don't like this idea because this parameter doesn't make sense for users that aren't supposed to know of backends (unless they are also admins, which is not generally the case). | 15:52 |
| gouthamr | how many times are you cloning this snapshot - can we infer that without asking the question? | 15:52 |
| bswartz | But if you're too aggressive about scheduling new shares to other pools you could end up needlessly lowering storage efficiency and wasting time copying data | 15:52 |
| bswartz | My intuition is that the the end user should be empowered to give hints to the scheduler, to cover the cases when the end user and the admin are actually the same person or at least people who talk to eachother | 15:53 |
| bswartz | But such hints would not make sense in a more traditional public cloud deployment | 15:54 |
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| ganso | gouthamr: if the user intends to send 100 requests, and send them individually, it is harder for us to decide whether to spread it or not. Although, if the user could mark the snapshot with a flag, we could know it. But why should a user mark it if it is not supposed to know or care about backends and balancing? | 15:54 |
| bswartz | My solution there is to call them hints so it's clear that the system it welcome to ignore them | 15:54 |
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| gouthamr | ganso: +1 | 15:55 |
| ganso | bswartz: regarding efficiency, it could go both ways | 15:55 |
| ganso | bswartz: if you have COW, then creating a 100 new shares from a snapshot is going to consume 0 bytes (in theory) | 15:56 |
| bswartz | Anyways I'd like to answer that question before this spec merges | 15:56 |
| bswartz | That's the crux of the issue | 15:56 |
| bswartz | Let's move on though, I have a hard stop in 4 minutes | 15:56 |
| bswartz | #topic Storage Availability Zone Improvements | 15:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Storage Availability Zone Improvements (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:56 | |
| ganso | bswartz: if we spread them, we would consume ~50x the size of the original share | 15:56 |
| bswartz | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/616123/ | 15:56 |
| bswartz | This is new as of yesterday | 15:57 |
| bswartz | I started to take a look this morning | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: you're thought is to allow users to say `create --snapshot mysnap --okay-with-slow-creation` or `create --snapshot mysnap --quickly-if-possible` | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: don't yet | 15:57 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: yes | 15:57 |
| * gouthamr reddit-shames himself with you're/your | 15:58 | |
| gouthamr | okay, sorry - i can quickly cover these two specs | 15:58 |
| bswartz | Anything to say about this? I'm not done reviewing | 15:58 |
| ganso | gouthamr: still, how about the COW concerns? slow and fast isn't the only concern | 15:58 |
| bswartz | gouthamr and your other spec has a workflow -1 | 15:58 |
| gouthamr | ganso: hmm, lemme read previous comments and your spec | 15:58 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: yes, it is not complete | 15:58 |
| bswartz | still aiming for stein though? | 15:59 |
| gouthamr | yep | 15:59 |
| * bswartz waves the shame stick at gouthamr | 15:59 | |
| gouthamr | :) | 15:59 |
| bswartz | today was supposed to be the deadline! | 15:59 |
| bswartz | Please get it in shape and ping people for reviews | 15:59 |
| gouthamr | sure thing | 15:59 |
| bswartz | that's all the time we have I'm afraid | 15:59 |
| bswartz | We will meet next week, despite people being at summit | 16:00 |
| bswartz | hopefully to make more progress on these specs | 16:00 |
| bswartz | enjoy berlin | 16:00 |
| bswartz | I'll miss you guys | 16:00 |
| bswartz | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Nov 8 16:00:42 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-11-08-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-11-08-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-11-08-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
| ganso | Tschüss | 16:00 |
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