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| tbarron | #startmeeting manila | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Nov 15 15:00:26 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tbarron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'manila' | 15:00 |
| tbarron | ping ganso | 15:00 |
| tbarron | ping gouthamr | 15:00 |
| dustins | \o | 15:00 |
| tbarron | yo dustins | 15:00 |
| tbarron | ping bswartz | 15:01 |
| bswartz | .o/ | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping vkmc | 15:01 |
| vkmc | o/ | 15:01 |
| *** markmcclain has quit IRC | 15:01 | |
| tbarron | ping amito | 15:01 |
| tbarron | he's probably doing his friend's bachelor party :) | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping erlon | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping xyang | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping tpsilva | 15:02 |
| tbarron | I think that's all .... | 15:03 |
| tbarron | Hi all! | 15:03 |
| tbarron | Hello from Berlin. | 15:03 |
| tbarron | #topic announcements | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:03 | |
| tbarron | Congratulations to our own vkmc - contributor award winner: mentor of mentors! | 15:04 |
| dustins | \o/ | 15:04 |
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| gouthamr | o/ Congratulations!! | 15:05 |
| tbarron | We touched on this last week but shall we cancel next week's meeting? I don't think we'll have a quorum given the Thanksgiving holiday in the US. | 15:05 |
| tbarron | Anyone have a problem with us cancelling? | 15:06 |
| tbarron | ok | 15:06 |
| bswartz | +1 cancel | 15:06 |
| tbarron | #agreed we will skip meeting 22 November, next meeting will be 29 November. | 15:07 |
| tbarron | 29 November is also our extended deadline for specs that have already been submitted. | 15:07 |
| tbarron | Any other announcements? | 15:07 |
| *** markmcclain has joined #openstack-meeting-alt | 15:08 | |
| * amito sneaks in | 15:08 | |
| dustins | Yeah, I've got one | 15:08 |
| tbarron | :( | 15:08 |
| tbarron | :) | 15:08 |
| amito | Just got home | 15:08 |
| dustins | So I'm taking a position outside of Red Hat and will be stepping away from OpenStack and Manila | 15:08 |
| tbarron | amito: wow! and you're still sober :) | 15:09 |
| tbarron | dustins: boooh :) | 15:09 |
| bswartz | dustins: :-( | 15:09 |
| dustins | I want to thank everyone that I've worked with over the years in Manila from my NetApp days to now, you've all been fantastic and I'm so thankful to have met most of you in person | 15:09 |
| amito | dustins: good luck! sad to see you go :( | 15:09 |
| tbarron | dustins: seriously, I hope it's a great new situation for you of course. | 15:09 |
| dustins | Manila is a fantastic project and we're doing good stuff, and I'll be checking in on occasion to see how awesome :D | 15:10 |
| dustins | amito: Thank you! | 15:10 |
| dustins | tbarron: I think it is, but I'm biased :P | 15:10 |
| tbarron | And I hope to see you back here in a few weeks trying to get your new employer's back end driver merged in manila! | 15:10 |
| dustins | tbarron: A little insider help never hurt :D | 15:10 |
| * dustins is gonna be "the manila guy" at his new employer, he just knows it | 15:11 | |
| dustins | hahaha | 15:11 |
| amito | tbarron: still sober as I literally just got off the taxi and opened the door to my apartment :D | 15:11 |
| gouthamr | hehe, don't say goodbye then dustins | 15:11 |
| tbarron | Any other announcements? | 15:11 |
| dustins | gouthamr: Heh, I guess not :D | 15:12 |
| tbarron | #topic Spec Reviews | 15:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Spec Reviews (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:12 | |
| tbarron | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/607342 | 15:12 |
| tbarron | This is manage/unmanage share servers ^^^ | 15:13 |
| tbarron | I see gouthamr did a recent review. | 15:13 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: Are you OK with the basic direction on this one and just need your latest points addressed? | 15:13 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: was going to respond to your feedback, mostly okay with it | 15:14 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: that's what I thought. | 15:14 |
| gouthamr | tbarron ganso was going to remove that driver interface | 15:14 |
| tbarron | This one seems to be making good progress. And yeah, if we can remove that altogether it will be simpler. | 15:14 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: i dunno if he had an afterthought - then i'd like to discuss it a bit more | 15:15 |
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| tbarron | Well ganso may be on duty here in Berlin, don't see him here, so check with him offline. | 15:16 |
| tbarron | I think if he agrees that that driver interface is not needed then we're ready to go except for some wording changes, etc. | 15:16 |
| * bswartz summons ganso to the meeting | 15:16 | |
| tbarron | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/615947/ | 15:17 |
| tbarron | This is share networks span subnets. | 15:17 |
| tbarron | bswartz: I've seen you busy with CSI PRs this week but have you had a chance to look at the latest version of this? | 15:18 |
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| tbarron | I'm going to rely on bswartz and gouthamr for expertise on whether the | 15:18 |
| bswartz | This is the one that I wanted to see in conjunction with the rest of the design | 15:18 |
| tbarron | design for handing multi-address family stuff over and above the | 15:19 |
| bswartz | I think it's important to have a complete picture of where we wish to go with share networks | 15:19 |
| tbarron | already-approved idea that gouthamr wrote up back in newton | 15:19 |
| tbarron | is OK. | 15:19 |
| bswartz | I'm neutral on the formatting in 2 specs vs 1 giant spec | 15:19 |
| bswartz | And I'm also okay with phasing the delivery | 15:20 |
| tbarron | Well we have it in two and that makes the original authorship and provenance clear, so I like that :) | 15:20 |
| tbarron | kk | 15:20 |
| tbarron | But is the design right? | 15:20 |
| gouthamr | the updates on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/615947/2/specs/stein/share-network-multiple-subnet.rst are minor | 15:20 |
| bswartz | Authorship isn't really relevant, these documents are team efforts | 15:20 |
| gouthamr | i.e, no design changes, some clarifications | 15:20 |
| * bswartz goes to dig up other spec | 15:21 | |
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| tbarron | They are minor, are they sufficient? | 15:21 |
| gouthamr | exactly, i don't think so | 15:22 |
| gouthamr | :) | 15:22 |
| gouthamr | i think the "multiple subnets per AZ" design notes can be added right there | 15:22 |
| bswartz | Wait I can't find the other one | 15:22 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/391805/ | 15:22 |
| bswartz | Okay I'm confused now | 15:23 |
| bswartz | The one I'm interested in has definite driver impact | 15:23 |
| bswartz | Because, for example, dual ipv4/ipv6 for each share server requires a driver interface change | 15:23 |
| tbarron | so maybe we have another spec on the way? | 15:24 |
| bswartz | Well if we had ganso here we could | 15:24 |
| tbarron | Cause what we have IMO doesn't address this issue yet | 15:25 |
| bswartz | we could ask* | 15:25 |
| bswartz | Yeah I suspect he's postponing that work until T (train?) | 15:25 |
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| bswartz | In any case, I'm -1 on any changes to share networks until that spec is sorted out | 15:26 |
| tbarron | bswartz: I thought the consensus was that the implementaiton could wait till T for that phase but that we wouldn't ... | 15:26 |
| tbarron | Yeah, what you just said. | 15:26 |
| bswartz | I understand the work may be split across releases | 15:26 |
| bswartz | But I still want to have the whole plan written down before we start the work | 15:26 |
| tbarron | I'll do some strong-arm^H^H^H^H^H^^H^ clarification in person | 15:26 |
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| bswartz | My big worry is implementing ourselves into a corner we can't get out of | 15:27 |
| tbarron | in a few minutes. Then if ganso wants this to advance in this cycle he needs to ping bswartz and gouthamr for reviews on that part in the next two weeks | 15:27 |
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| tbarron | +1 | 15:27 |
| bswartz | We've done it before with some rather poor decisions around share access | 15:27 |
| tbarron | I want to get consensus on the end game, not just on the intermediate steps. | 15:28 |
| gouthamr | ack | 15:28 |
| tbarron | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/609537/ | 15:28 |
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| tbarron | ^^^ Create share from snaps in another pool/back end | 15:28 |
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| gouthamr | okay, this one i've some problems with | 15:28 |
| bswartz | And share-networks themselves have proven to be rather poorly-thought-out from the beginning | 15:29 |
| bswartz | So if we're going to fix them finally, let's do it right | 15:29 |
| tbarron | bswartz: +1 | 15:29 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: +1 | 15:29 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: seems like we don't have a consistent view of *what* problem this spec is trying to solve? | 15:29 |
| bswartz | I disagree | 15:30 |
| bswartz | The problem here is clear | 15:30 |
| bswartz | The solution is less clear | 15:30 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: no, i understand the problem - i was speaking to the user ganso's trying to help out | 15:30 |
| gouthamr | i took bswartz's stance on this, since the proposal seemed quite complicated.. | 15:31 |
| tbarron | bswartz: gouthamr k, you guys are OK with the problem statement in the spec then, not just with your own knowledge of a user and her use case? | 15:31 |
| bswartz | For others here in the meeting, I'll summarize my issue | 15:31 |
| tbarron | I *thought* I understood it but now I'm not so sure. | 15:31 |
| bswartz | The problematic use case we face is when a user of Manila decides that creating shares from snapshots should be the primary mode of share creation, rather than the normal share creation process | 15:32 |
| bswartz | That subverts the scheduler and causes major problems on the deployer side | 15:32 |
| amito | bswartz: I guess that can be a use case for backup software | 15:33 |
| amito | bswartz: not sure though | 15:33 |
| bswartz | So at a minimum, we need a mechanism for creating shares on different pools than the snapshots | 15:34 |
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| bswartz | The problem is knowing when to invoke that mechanism | 15:34 |
| tbarron | so that the shares get spread rather than packed ... | 15:34 |
| bswartz | End users don't really care where their shares get created, as long as creation is fast | 15:35 |
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| gouthamr | bswartz: Yes, i wanted to propose a two phase solution, please see my last comment on the spec | 15:35 |
| bswartz | Deployers care about balance placement (for a variety of reasons) but also care about storage efficiency | 15:35 |
| bswartz | Some of the possible cures are worse than the disease, so we need to be careful which cure we pick | 15:36 |
| tbarron | twist: end users may care about locality and want to direct to an AZ (that's also in this spec) | 15:36 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: for now, i think we should fail the user request unless they are okay with us mirroring/moving some data for them and creating the new share.. | 15:36 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: ack | 15:36 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: (second part of that sentence deserves major abstraction - no sausage making display) | 15:37 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: bswartz: so end users don't get to say I want the fastest COWish way, they just get whatever the cloud can give them, iiuc | 15:37 |
| bswartz | My intuition is that the scheduler should have primacy | 15:38 |
| gouthamr | ++ | 15:38 |
| bswartz | But the scheduler needs to be able to take into account the costs/benefits the pool choice | 15:38 |
| bswartz | *of the pool choice | 15:39 |
| gouthamr | amito: the user in question here had the exact workflow - they would recreate all their workloads periodically with snapshots | 15:39 |
| gouthamr | amito: you could consider that "backup" | 15:39 |
| * tbarron moves to a new financial institution | 15:39 | |
| tbarron | cough | 15:40 |
| amito | gouthamr: ok | 15:40 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: something definitely PCI compliant this time :D | 15:41 |
| bswartz | tbarron: we may need some more high-bandwidth meetings between the stakeholders to reach closure on this spec and the other one | 15:41 |
| tbarron | bswartz: gouthamr: so you suggest running copy from snap through the scheduler? | 15:41 |
| bswartz | tbarron: absolutely | 15:41 |
| tbarron | I agree | 15:41 |
| bswartz | I think it was an error to not do that | 15:42 |
| bswartz | We did it because cinder did it that way and it seemed pretty harmless at the time | 15:42 |
| tbarron | I'd like to see configurable policy for the scheduler then. | 15:42 |
| gouthamr | tbarron : yep | 15:42 |
| tbarron | spread vs pack, weighting of the candidate pools | 15:42 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: no :( | 15:42 |
| bswartz | Yeah it should be possible for the admin to tell the scheduler "always choose the same pool" and get the same behavior we have today | 15:42 |
| tbarron | configurable by cloud admiin, not the user | 15:43 |
| gouthamr | we can discuss this some more - i believe we should do a two-phased implementation | 15:43 |
| bswartz | But there need to be alternatives too, and this spec lays the ground work | 15:43 |
| tbarron | ok, I'll send out an email today asking for intereseted parties on this one so that anyone | 15:44 |
| tbarron | who wants can attend a high-bandwidth synchronous meeting | 15:44 |
| tbarron | I'm not confidernt that we'll settle this one by the 29th, but let's try. | 15:45 |
| tbarron | confident | 15:45 |
| bswartz | I think it's enough time | 15:45 |
| tbarron | that's the attitude :) | 15:45 |
| bswartz | As long as there isn't some Brazillian holiday that lasts 5 days between now and then | 15:45 |
| tbarron | ok, anything else on this one now? | 15:46 |
| tbarron | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/616123/ | 15:46 |
| tbarron | ^^ AZ improvments | 15:46 |
| tbarron | looks unreviewed still | 15:46 |
| * bswartz hides | 15:47 | |
| tbarron | gouthamr: do you want to summarize the basic ideas here? | 15:47 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: sure | 15:47 |
| bswartz | I still owe a review to gouthamr | 15:47 |
| gouthamr | so this one proposes two things to AZs -> allow them to be configured per-backend and allow the administrator to scope share types to specific AZs | 15:47 |
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| gouthamr | and also covers two tech-debt items -> Allowing users to discover Export Locations per AZ and allowing administrators to "reset" AZs with manila-manage | 15:48 |
| gouthamr | so, no overhaul of existing design, just a bunch of #TODOs that I had for a while, written out | 15:49 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: under what circumstances would a share span AZs? | 15:49 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: only replication | 15:49 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: please explain what fulfilling these TODOs gets us :) | 15:49 |
| bswartz | Oh right | 15:50 |
| bswartz | So the share instances still have exactly 1 AZ | 15:50 |
| bswartz | But the share has multiple instances | 15:50 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: export-locations discovery is important for us right away because it is a problem right now that users don't know what is the "optimal" export to use (or if something even works to connect to from a specific AZ) | 15:51 |
| tbarron | +1 | 15:51 |
| gouthamr | manila-manage issue was just a usability concern because we don't want the admin conducting a painful 'database surgery' (likes those words) | 15:52 |
| gouthamr | if they change their AZs | 15:53 |
| tbarron | and configure AZ per back end combined with share types scoped to AZs lets users ask for stroage where it is consumed | 15:54 |
| gouthamr | "administrator to scope share types to specific AZs" -> this allows us to present meaningful errors right in the API if a user attempts to use a share type that isn't supported in an AZ | 15:55 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: that too | 15:55 |
| tbarron | like at a particular edge :) | 15:55 |
| tbarron | so I haven't reviewed this one for writing, etc. but I'm on board with the ideas behind it | 15:56 |
| gouthamr | ++, edge is the motivation for this spec | 15:56 |
| tbarron | bswartz: please check and see if you have any fundamaental issues and if not, let's work to get the spec finished and merged | 15:56 |
| * gouthamr is happy to tell bswartz about his learning at the Denver PTG wrt how manila's AZ design is pretty awesome | 15:56 | |
| bswartz | cool | 15:57 |
| tbarron | ok, we're pretty much out of time, gouthamr is there anything you want to say to prep reviews of | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | yes | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | one more spec | 15:57 |
| tbarron | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/616383/ | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | ty tbarron | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | so this one imo is also tech debt | 15:58 |
| gouthamr | after tenant-visible-extra-specs became a thing in liberty/mitaka, we've been wanting to go back and change "shrink" into a capability | 15:58 |
| bswartz | I will be reviewing this one too | 15:58 |
| tbarron | bswartz: ty | 15:59 |
| gouthamr | and storage protocol support will be similar to AZs | 15:59 |
| gouthamr | that's all :) | 15:59 |
| tbarron | OK, thanks everyone! Let's review!! | 16:00 |
| tbarron | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Nov 15 16:00:08 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-11-15-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-11-15-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-11-15-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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