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| tbarron | #startmeeting manila | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Dec 20 15:00:36 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is tbarron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'manila' | 15:00 |
| tbarron | ping bswartz | 15:00 |
| tbarron | ping gouthamr | 15:00 |
| ganso | hello | 15:00 |
| tbarron | ping ganso | 15:01 |
| gouthamr | o/ | 15:01 |
| tbarron | hi ganso | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping xyang | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping toabctl | 15:01 |
| vkmc | o/ | 15:01 |
| toabctl | hey | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping erlon | 15:01 |
| tbarron | ping tpsilva | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ping amito | 15:02 |
| *** jgrosso has joined #openstack-meeting-alt | 15:02 | |
| xyang | hi | 15:02 |
| tbarron | ok, that's all the folks who put their names on the ping list | 15:02 |
| tbarron | Hello all! | 15:02 |
| amito | hey | 15:02 |
| bswartz | .o/ | 15:02 |
| bswartz | Sorry I'm late | 15:02 |
| tbarron | Agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/w/index.php?title=Manila/Meetings§ion=2 | 15:02 |
| tbarron | hi bswartz | 15:02 |
| bswartz | Was replacing faulty hardware | 15:03 |
| tbarron | we're just starting | 15:03 |
| tbarron | #topic announcements | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:03 | |
| tbarron | just a reminder that milestone 2 is the week of January 7 | 15:03 |
| tbarron | also, our stable branches were blocked but | 15:04 |
| tbarron | finally https://review.openstack.org/#/c/622262/ merged | 15:04 |
| amito | that's a lot of 2's | 15:04 |
| tbarron | we're backporting it and only the change for ocata is pending | 15:05 |
| tbarron | no controversy once people felt it was safe for stable/rocky | 15:05 |
| tbarron | amito: :) | 15:05 |
| tbarron | The problem at root is that even though we pin all the requirements down for stable branches OS updates occur anyways | 15:06 |
| tbarron | and destabilize everything | 15:06 |
| tbarron | Anyone else have announcements? | 15:06 |
| tbarron | #topic 27 December meeting - cancel? | 15:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "27 December meeting - cancel? (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:07 | |
| bswartz | cancel | 15:07 |
| tbarron | lots of folks are on holiday 27 December so we probably won't have quorum | 15:07 |
| tbarron | anyone object to canceling, next meeting would be 3 January, two weeks from now | 15:08 |
| tbarron | 3 | 15:08 |
| tbarron | 2 | 15:08 |
| tbarron | 1 | 15:08 |
| tbarron | ok, I hear no objections and will update the manila meetings wiki accordingly | 15:08 |
| tbarron | #topic kubecon report | 15:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "kubecon report (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:08 | |
| tbarron | we had several manila folks at kubecon | 15:09 |
| bswartz | \o/ | 15:09 |
| *** jgrosso has quit IRC | 15:09 | |
| tbarron | In my view manila is well positioned to provide RWX storage to container orchestrators and | 15:09 |
| tbarron | its lack of tight coupling to nova | 15:09 |
| tbarron | which may have been a disadvantage for a nova-centric world | 15:09 |
| tbarron | is now an advantage | 15:10 |
| tbarron | Be that a it may (my views) | 15:10 |
| tbarron | I | 15:10 |
| *** jgrosso has joined #openstack-meeting-alt | 15:10 | |
| tbarron | I'd like to hear from bswartz xyang gouthamr about kubecon | 15:10 |
| tbarron | what should we know? | 15:10 |
| bswartz | So there was a F2F (face to face) meeting of the storage sig on wednesday | 15:10 |
| gouthamr | o/ it was a great gathering, the largest kubecon apparently | 15:11 |
| *** dpawlik has quit IRC | 15:11 | |
| bswartz | There weren't too many sessions in the conference proper on storage related topics (I only went to 1) | 15:11 |
| gouthamr | xyang and bswartz presented on a few interesting topics in the storage meetups | 15:11 |
| bswartz | But the face to face meeting was very well attended | 15:12 |
| gouthamr | SIG Storage F2F notes: https://goo.gl/HjtoBH | 15:12 |
| tbarron | was the f2f storage sig by any chance recorded? | 15:12 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: great notes, thanks! | 15:12 |
| bswartz | No | 15:12 |
| bswartz | Audio was just 1 microphone, only the presenter and people on the phone could be heard | 15:13 |
| bswartz | No video | 15:13 |
| gouthamr | also here's a Cloud native storage whitepaper xyang contributed to: https://goo.gl/XSrL1S | 15:13 |
| xyang | sorry, I'm in another meeting now | 15:13 |
| tbarron | xyang: :) | 15:13 |
| * gouthamr and we're going ping-ping-ping on xyang | 15:13 | |
| bswartz | The topic of Manila did not come up | 15:14 |
| tbarron | did the topic of rwx storage for COs come up? | 15:15 |
| bswartz | tbarron: not sure what you mean | 15:15 |
| bswartz | rwx storage has been a thing for a long time | 15:15 |
| gouthamr | CSI support is GA in k8s 1.13 | 15:15 |
| tbarron | read write many for container orchestrators | 15:15 |
| bswartz | Yeah CSI is GA now and the focus is on the next round of CSI-related features including improvements to snapshots | 15:16 |
| *** tssurya_ has joined #openstack-meeting-alt | 15:16 | |
| tbarron | some of the stuff I see in the notes looks like re-doing cinder for CSI :) | 15:16 |
| bswartz | At least for kubernetes, rwx has been supported as long as NFS has been around | 15:16 |
| tbarron | maybe without paying attention to what we learned when going from cinder to maniila | 15:16 |
| bswartz | There are other FS types that support rwx too -- it's not an exotic thing | 15:16 |
| bswartz | RawBlock | 15:16 |
| bswartz | derp | 15:16 |
| bswartz | Raw block support is relatively new in the kubernetes world, and it's getting more stable | 15:17 |
| bswartz | tbarron: a lot of the same problems are getting rediscovered, but there's a lot of overlap in the communities so people have seen the problems before | 15:18 |
| tbarron | what sort of write-arbitrator does raw block have? | 15:18 |
| *** tssurya has quit IRC | 15:18 | |
| bswartz | The big open question is whether the kubernetes community will find better solutions than the openstack community did or not | 15:19 |
| bswartz | tbarron: raw block, like filsystem, can be single-attach or multi-attach | 15:19 |
| tbarron | and if multi-attach and writable there's a need for a write-arbitrator, correct? | 15:19 |
| bswartz | Because of the way kubernetes works, it's actually easier to provide multi-attach raw block storage than multi-attach filesystem storage | 15:20 |
| bswartz | But in reality nearly all the solutions are single-attach | 15:20 |
| bswartz | That's mostly because raw block support is so new | 15:20 |
| bswartz | That's not super relevant to us in Manila though | 15:20 |
| tbarron | well if you can use it instead of filesystems and it's faster, that would seem to be relevant | 15:22 |
| tbarron | like no need for filesystems | 15:22 |
| bswartz | It's typically not about speed | 15:22 |
| bswartz | Raw block support is typically interesting because there's a wider variety of ways to do multi-attach with it than filesystems | 15:23 |
| bswartz | And for applications that just need a bag of bits, a filesystem is just an extra layer of abstraction | 15:23 |
| bswartz | Which is unneeded complexity, and yes, a small performance penalty | 15:24 |
| tbarron | a bag of bits seems more like object storage :) | 15:24 |
| bswartz | Raw block is valuable in the context of storage-oriented applications like databases and shared filesystem implementations | 15:25 |
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| bswartz | well a bag of bits is 1 object in an object store | 15:25 |
| bswartz | A whole object does have some kind of structure to it | 15:26 |
| bswartz | Err | 15:26 |
| bswartz | A whole object store does have some kind of structure to it | 15:26 |
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| tbarron | ok so w.r.t. the write-arbitration question, raw block is intended for use by apps like databases that coordiante their writes from e.g. different app instances on different hosts themselves | 15:26 |
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| bswartz | Yeah | 15:27 |
| tbarron | got it | 15:27 |
| bswartz | Obviously if you're sharing access to a block device you need a way to coordinate between the accessors | 15:27 |
| tbarron | and that's one thing a file system gives the apps for free | 15:27 |
| bswartz | That's a distributed systems problem though | 15:27 |
| tbarron | at a performance cost | 15:28 |
| bswartz | Yeah NFS has built in locking and cache coherency protocols | 15:28 |
| tbarron | OK, anything else on kubecon report? | 15:29 |
| bswartz | Can't think of anything else that would be interesting to this crowd | 15:29 |
| bswartz | I will say, Seattle has a LOT of sea food | 15:30 |
| tbarron | :) | 15:30 |
| gouthamr | oh, yeah.. sig-openstack is going to restart meetings in January | 15:30 |
| gouthamr | meeting schedule is here: https://github.com/kubernetes/community/tree/master/sig-openstack | 15:30 |
| tbarron | I think it will be interesting to figure what the role of manila, cinder, etc. will be for on-prem container-clouds when stuff like rook really matures | 15:31 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: who is running those? | 15:31 |
| gouthamr | it'll be a good time to report progress on our work to shape up teh manila provisioner | 15:31 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: hodgepodge, dims | 15:31 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: +1 | 15:31 |
| gouthamr | actually, scratch that: https://github.com/kubernetes/community/tree/master/sig-openstack#leadership :) | 15:32 |
| bswartz | gouthamr: are you the one working on that? | 15:32 |
| dims | o/ | 15:32 |
| tbarron | rook will supply storage abstractions that aren't specific to on-prem clouds ... | 15:32 |
| bswartz | I meant the manila provisioner | 15:33 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: you mean the manila csi implementation? tbarron, vkmc have been more involved than I, but yes. | 15:33 |
| bswartz | Okay | 15:33 |
| bswartz | Does it have a home? | 15:33 |
| tbarron | upstream i think it would be parallel to cinder-csi but that's one thing to nail down | 15:34 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: yes, cloud-provider-openstack | 15:34 |
| bswartz | Link? | 15:34 |
| gouthamr | https://github.com/kubernetes/cloud-provider-openstack | 15:34 |
| gouthamr | #LINK https://github.com/kubernetes/cloud-provider-openstack | 15:34 |
| gouthamr | ^ that's where the current manila dynamic provisioner lives | 15:35 |
| bswartz | Ah yes | 15:35 |
| bswartz | Ty | 15:35 |
| gouthamr | (old home: https://github.com/kubernetes-incubator/external-storage) | 15:35 |
| tbarron | Anything else on this topic today? | 15:36 |
| bswartz | Nope | 15:36 |
| tbarron | #topic gate issues | 15:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "gate issues (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:37 | |
| tbarron | besides the stable/branch issues I mentioned we still have lots of non-voting job failures | 15:37 |
| tbarron | I want to turn red to green | 15:37 |
| tbarron | so will be pushing people for reviews and | 15:38 |
| tbarron | asking some of you (you know you you are) for | 15:38 |
| * gouthamr waves at dims, congratulates him for the k8s community award | 15:38 | |
| tbarron | help w.r.t. the generic driver problems | 15:38 |
| tbarron | yeah, hi dims and congrats! | 15:38 |
| dims | aww thanks :) | 15:38 |
| tbarron | That's pretty much all I have to say on this topic - thanks to those helping with reviews so far. | 15:39 |
| gouthamr | yeah, we still haven't found the real cause of the failures on the manila generic driver jobs | 15:40 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: right, just making baby steps | 15:40 |
| gouthamr | tbarron++, yep, ty! | 15:40 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: updated xenial service image has the same issue as the image from a year ago | 15:40 |
| bswartz | Not bionic yet? | 15:40 |
| tbarron | bionic image has a different, apparently earlier failure to connect to svm issue | 15:41 |
| tbarron | doesn't get as far so far as I can tell | 15:41 |
| bswartz | -_- | 15:41 |
| tbarron | looks like the networking is messed up | 15:41 |
| tbarron | bswartz: do you know if there's any reason for the service module to do that layer2 stitching | 15:41 |
| tbarron | different for ovs, for linux bridge, etc. | 15:42 |
| bswartz | Wait which service module are you referring to | 15:42 |
| tbarron | nowadays? | 15:42 |
| bswartz | Oh | 15:42 |
| bswartz | It has to match what the cloud is using IIRC | 15:42 |
| tbarron | did we do that because neutron didn't have an api for what we needed to do? | 15:42 |
| bswartz | That too | 15:42 |
| tbarron | maybe we can do everything with neutron then | 15:43 |
| bswartz | The code to do the horrible network backdoor exists because neutron didn't support what we needed years back | 15:43 |
| bswartz | The option to use linuxbridge or ovs is because the horrible backdoor has to be compatible with what neutron is doing | 15:43 |
| ganso | bswartz: which is? | 15:43 |
| tbarron | I'm thinking maybe nowadays we can get rid of the horrible backdoor | 15:44 |
| bswartz | ganso: a way to SSH from the m-shr service to the service VM | 15:44 |
| ganso | bswartz: and what's new in neutron that could allow us to accomplish that without the backdoor? | 15:44 |
| tbarron | since we have to debug this issue anyways | 15:44 |
| bswartz | Assuming the service VM could be on a neutron network with no routers | 15:44 |
| bswartz | ganso: I'm not aware of any changes in neutron | 15:44 |
| ganso | bswartz: are you thinking about using something equivalent to "ip netns exec ssh" ? | 15:45 |
| bswartz | It sounds like tbarron may know of some new development I haven't heard of yet | 15:45 |
| bswartz | ganso: that won't work | 15:45 |
| tbarron | bswartz: I don't know but I'm hoping ... | 15:45 |
| bswartz | tbarron: without help from nova this is a very hard problem to solve | 15:46 |
| tbarron | we should be able to boot up an svm with two nics, one on the tenant net and one on a net that manila share is also on | 15:46 |
| ganso | tbarron: there is an option for that | 15:47 |
| ganso | tbarron: it is called "connect_to_tenant_network" | 15:47 |
| gouthamr | "connect to tenant network" or something? | 15:47 |
| ganso | gouthamr: yep | 15:47 |
| gouthamr | ^ yes! that's how we solved the recent problem with the grad student :) | 15:47 |
| gouthamr | why isn't that the default? | 15:48 |
| bswartz | Security issues maybe? | 15:48 |
| ganso | gouthamr: it doesn't solve the current gate problem, I already tried that | 15:48 |
| gouthamr | bswartz: true, but the manila service network can be secured | 15:48 |
| ganso | gouthamr: I mean, it doesn't solve because the driver will still try to use the 10.254.0.x network port to access the share server | 15:48 |
| tbarron | ganso: that might be fixable | 15:49 |
| ganso | tbarron: but then it would need a different route. The driver cannot access the tenant's network by default | 15:49 |
| ganso | tbarron: creating the backdoor there isn't an option | 15:49 |
| bswartz | connect_share_server_to_tenant_network | 15:50 |
| bswartz | ^ This? | 15:50 |
| ganso | bswartz: yes | 15:50 |
| tbarron | if the share server has two faces, one on the tenant's net (and that's wehere its export location is published) and one back to manila-share-with-driver ... | 15:51 |
| bswartz | We should consider these alternatives and try to changes the defaults to something more likely to work | 15:52 |
| ganso | tbarron: actually, we kinda already have the means to fix it with that admin plugin network we added back in 2015 | 15:52 |
| tbarron | yeah, that's what I wanted everyone to agree to ^^ | 15:52 |
| tbarron | what bswartz said | 15:52 |
| ganso | tbarron: it would have a simpler connection to the driver | 15:52 |
| bswartz | Originally when we were designing this, all the options looked bad to us, and we were hoping that neutron or nova would change to make the situation better | 15:53 |
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| bswartz | Unfortunately other priorities took over, and we never pushed for the improvements needed | 15:53 |
| tbarron | ok, let's pursue this more outside of this meeting | 15:54 |
| bswartz | I could see the admin network stuff helping here | 15:54 |
| bswartz | But the security implications make me shiver | 15:54 |
| ganso | bswartz: and it is hardly feasible in the gate | 15:54 |
| bswartz | You really have to trust those service VMs if you go down that path | 15:54 |
| ganso | bswartz: because we would need the host with 2 network interfaces to create a provider network | 15:54 |
| tbarron | bswartz: i wonder if we can mitigate that with security rules, they work a lot better than when this stuff was developed | 15:55 |
| ganso | bswartz: the admin network we create for testing is fake | 15:55 |
| bswartz | ganso: well we'd need a real one | 15:55 |
| bswartz | Maybe we should schedule a breakout meeting to delve into this problem | 15:56 |
| gouthamr | +1 | 15:56 |
| bswartz | It still need a champion to drive it though | 15:56 |
| gouthamr | also, can we have bug triage/bug squash soon-ish? | 15:56 |
| gouthamr | we haven't looked at them in a while | 15:56 |
| tbarron | gouthamr: well we're out of time today | 15:56 |
| gouthamr | tbarron: yeah, not today.. but i wanted us to visit them in a separate meeting as we agreed to during PTG | 15:57 |
| gouthamr | :) | 15:57 |
| tbarron | sure | 15:57 |
| tbarron | let's talk about breakout meetings for 5 min in #openstack-manila | 15:57 |
| tbarron | #topic our work | 15:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "our work (Meeting topic: manila)" | 15:58 | |
| bswartz | Is anyone aware of any new nova features that could serve as a channel of communication from m-shr to the service VM? | 15:58 |
| tbarron | Please review the access-rule-priortity review | 15:58 |
| tbarron | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/572283/ | 15:58 |
| tbarron | thanks to toabctl and ganso for reviewing | 15:58 |
| tbarron | lately | 15:58 |
| tbarron | bswartz: I'm not, but let's explore | 15:59 |
| tbarron | ok, let's continue briefly in #openstack-manila | 15:59 |
| tbarron | Thanks everyone!! | 15:59 |
| tbarron | #endmeeting | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Dec 20 16:00:02 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-12-20-15.00.html | 16:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-12-20-15.00.txt | 16:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/manila/2018/manila.2018-12-20-15.00.log.html | 16:00 |
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