Tuesday, 2016-01-12

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ttxhola21:01
nikhilo/21:01
thingeeand now here!21:02
thingeecourtesy ping for Qiming TravT gordc dirk mriedem SergeyLukjanov21:02
elmikohi21:02
thingeecourtesy ping for daemontool jroll boris-42 redrobot flaper87 rhochmuth21:02
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thingee#startmeeting crossproject21:02
harlowjayo21:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Jan 12 21:02:56 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is thingee. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:02
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:03
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'crossproject'21:03
cdento/21:03
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angdraugo/21:03
* rockyg is still sleepily peeking out from under that stone....21:03
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thingeesorry for jumping people around. Just making sure they know about this new irc channel for the cross project meeting21:03
fungiheh21:03
annegentleno worries thanks thingee21:03
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fungiindeed, i almost forgot after several weeks of no agenda21:03
thingeewe have a lovely agenda21:03
thingeehttps://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting21:03
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thingeesince we have no past items21:04
thingee#topic team announcements (horizontal, vertical, diagonal)21:04
*** openstack changes topic to "team announcements (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:04
docaedoo/21:04
bknudson_openstack security project meetup is this week21:04
bknudson_and barbican21:04
thingeedo we have a wiki page with all of the meetups?21:05
bknudson_yep, sprints21:05
bknudson_#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Sprints21:05
thingeethank you21:05
* jroll lurks21:06
thingeejust a reminder of dhellmann's release countdown http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-January/083507.html21:06
thingeemitaka 2 coming jan 19-2121:06
thingeetime flies21:06
elmikoseriously...21:07
thingee#link http://docs.openstack.org/releases/schedules/mitaka.html21:07
annegentlewhen you're having fun21:07
thingeeok going, going21:07
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ttxoh are we here now21:07
annegentlewelcome ttx!21:07
thingee#topic API guides vision - developer.openstack.org and REST API docs21:07
*** openstack changes topic to "API guides vision - developer.openstack.org and REST API docs (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:07
annegentlehey21:08
thingeeannegentle: hi21:08
annegentleI wanted to make sure I set up the current situation with application dev docs, so that project teams know what's up.21:08
bknudson_in keystone we have the v3 spec is just in rst21:08
annegentleit's an exciting time with 900 API calls in OpenStack that are documented. We now have over 30 REST API services, but 12 projects that have API reference info21:08
annegentle#link http://developer.openstack.org/21:09
annegentleWe have a new landing page design, and we're starting to get even more how-to content which is super exciting.21:09
annegentlebknudson_: yeah that's part of this launch also, is getting out of Docbook/WADL to RST/Swagger.21:09
* stevemar sneaks into the back of the room to listen21:09
elmikoannegentle: sahara is working towards this with out proposed v2 api21:10
elmikos/out/our21:10
annegentleSo, we need more how-to, we need centralized locations for both the content and the reviewers who know what's up for this audience, and we need standards.21:10
annegentleAsk and ye shall recieve.21:10
annegentlereceive?21:10
annegentleI can't spell.21:10
annegentleAnyway.21:10
annegentle#link http://www.openstack.org/blog/2016/01/whats-next-for-application-developer-guides/21:10
bknudson_do you have an automatic conversion from wads to swagger?21:11
bknudson_wadl21:11
annegentlethat post outlines a lot of the vision -- and maybe you got a chance to read it before coming here -- I wanted to be available for any questions21:11
annegentlebknudson_: just last week we brought in fairy-slipper, a migration tool21:11
annegentle#link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/project:openstack/fairy-slipper21:12
jrollannegentle: so, the docs team doesn't want to add projects to the install guides and such right now... just to be sure, this is open to all projects?21:12
annegentleThis tool had a proof-of-concept last release, and now we're collaborating more widely with the API working group.21:12
bknudson_really what we need to do is convert our v3 api spec to swagger -- http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/keystone-specs/api/v3/identity-api-v3.html21:12
elmikoannegentle: i'm curious about adding links to the api-wg wiki and guidelines on developer.os.o, wondering if adding another section to the API portion would be appropriate21:12
annegentlejroll: yes, there isn't as heavy a testing requirement on REST API and app dev docs21:13
jrollannegentle: cool, ty :D21:13
elmikowe've got "References" now, but about a "Working Group" section or something?21:13
annegentleelmiko: sure21:13
annegentleelmiko: it'd be great to rework that landing, but the first step was to get the landing page looking closer to a real web design :)21:13
elmikoright21:14
annegentleWe won't do all the WADL migration at once, so teams should continue to update WADL in api-site so that we know to migrate it21:14
annegentleteams can also investigate building how-to documents for API guides similar to what Compute is doing21:14
elmikowill the individual teams eventually be responsible for creating their own swagger?21:14
annegentle#link http://developer.openstack.org/api-guide/compute/21:14
annegentleelmiko: yes, that's idea, since the teams can review the design the best21:15
annegentleelmiko: while following api-wg guidelines21:15
elmikoannegentle: awesome, thanks21:15
annegentlesource for that api-guide is in the nova repo21:15
jrolloh, the source goes in the project tree, awesome21:16
annegentleTeams should generally be aware of developer docs helping out their application devs immensely.21:16
annegentlejroll: cool, glad you see the vision :)21:16
annegentleWe21:16
bknudson_Maybe it would be worth it to start fresh with the identity docs rather than convert the wadls, since keystone team hasn't been looking at wadls.21:16
elmikobknudson_: yea, i almost feel the same about sahara. i'm not sure how far behind the wadls are21:17
annegentleit's interesting, we had over 120 contributors to the WADLs last release21:17
elmikonice21:17
annegentleso even if you think they're not updated, they're the most contributed to docs as of late21:17
annegentleour most recent docs core contributors worked mostly on the API reference docs, KATO Tomoyuki.21:18
bknudson_we don't want to have 2 sources of truth for the api spec.21:19
annegentleso I think migration's the way to go, unless a team really has a great Swagger file. For example, me and a coworker wrote one for Magnum since they didn't have a WADL anyway.21:19
annegentlebknudson_: for sure21:19
annegentlenow, to jroll's point, we are starting with the six infra-services for migration purposes21:19
annegentleIdentity, Compute, Images, Networks, Block Storage, Object Storage21:20
annegentlesince we need to test the migration21:20
annegentleAdditional needs and calls to help:21:20
annegentleWe need to know the WADL-to-Swagger captures the API definitions complete as possible. That's fairy-slipper work.21:21
annegentleWe need to publish Swagger plus RST using flat files and file copy similar to how docs jobs work today.21:21
annegentleWe need build jobs and content in project's repos for how-to and tutorial examples for how to use your REST APIs21:22
annegentleThat's all I've got!21:22
bknudson_the how-tos are in the project repo and the swagger is elsewhere?21:22
annegentleFeel free to ask me anything in #openstack-sdks or #openstack-doc and please check out fairy-slipper21:22
annegentlebknudson_: yes, we have a couple of ideas for further integration, and ideas for generating swagger, but have to take small steps that give continuous deliverables to this audience.21:23
thingeeannegentle: so where do we go from here to get people involved from their respected projects?21:23
annegentlethingee: each project should have an API liaison and I can reach out directly to them21:23
thingeeexcellent21:23
thingeeanything else for annegentle before we move on...?21:24
annegentleAlso, people need to write tutorials! There are some cool things you can make with OpenStack infrastructure :)21:24
elmikodoes the doc team meeting usually cover the topics related to swagger and descriptive api doc gens?21:24
nikhilannegentle: should we add a section to the CPL list for API Liaison work?21:24
annegentleelmiko: yep, we have a standing item on the agenda as a "specialty team"21:24
elmikoannegentle: awesome, thanks21:24
annegentlenikhil: that would be great, I was just going to look for that. A while back we had API specialists, but I'm not sure that list is maintained.21:25
nikhilgotcha21:25
elmikowhat about the api-wg liaisons?21:25
smcginnisPretty sure it's not. :)21:25
nikhilI am thinking this page for tracking21:25
nikhil#link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons21:25
annegentleI would be amiss if I didn't thank people like Russell Sim and Karen Bradshow for getting us this far!21:25
annegentleelmiko: that's the list I was thinking of, api-wg liaisons!21:25
elmiko\o/21:25
annegentleelmiko: do you have that list?21:26
thingeethanks annegentle!21:26
elmiko#link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/api-wg/liaisons.html21:26
annegentle#info Many thanks to Russell Sim and Karen Bradshow for getting us this far!21:26
annegentleelmiko: fancy json no less! Nice.21:26
elmikowe used to have a nice table in the wiki, not sure what happened to it21:26
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thingee#topic Cross-Project Spec Liaisons21:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Cross-Project Spec Liaisons (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:27
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fungiby default these should be ptls21:27
thingeeok so so some time ago I spoke on the idea of having representatives from each project who can help with cross-project specs21:27
thingeehttp://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-12-01-21.00.html21:27
thingee#link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2015/crossproject.2015-12-01-21.00.html21:27
thingeefungi: definitely21:28
fungiat least that's how our other liaisoning is done (i think i just made up a word)21:28
lifelessliasing I think21:28
thingeeunfortunately expressed at the summit ptls don't always have time for this meeting or the efforts happening in cross-project areas. Alarming I agree, but I need someone from teams to participate and get ptls involved when necessary21:28
sdakefungi liasing21:28
sdakeis the word ;)21:28
elmikolifeless: +121:28
fungianyway, consider infra to be ptl-liaisonated for now, and i'll gladly delegate i it becomes necessary21:29
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thingeethat leads me to the first attempt of defining this group21:29
thingee#link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/266072/321:29
fungiliaisonated is definitely a word ;)21:29
elmikoit should be =)21:29
thingeeas stated ptls are default.21:29
thingeeit will be listed in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons for someone else to sign up21:30
rockygthingee, maybe a weekly crossproject posting of open reviews, summary/title and status?  Then lots of people would get a gentle reminder every week21:30
thingeebut the responsibilites are more or less of what we discussed in that previous meeting.21:30
cdentI thikn I managed to volunteer or get volunteered for nova21:30
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thingeeassuming we can agree on the responsibilities in the project team guide, I will announce on the ML the signup table for each team21:31
thingeecdent: thank you!21:31
cdent(as the guy who comes here)21:31
gordcso with the 'big-tent' there are "who knows how many" liasons/ptls. i'm not sure how successful 'all you people look at this' approach is.21:31
fungithingee: sounds great21:32
elmikoi'd like to talk with our ptl (sahara), but i'm certainly up for liasing on sahara's behalf21:32
thingeeelmiko: wonderful21:32
dhellmanngordc : it doesn't have to be everyone, but it needs to be more people than are reviewing them now21:33
gordci would think being cross project, the scope of specs requires quite a detail knowledge of not just one's own project but others21:33
nikhilthingee: what tag should we expect on the subject?21:33
ttxthingee: we could mention the open specs in the weekly dev digest too, I guess21:33
thingeeyeah ideally I will mention it on the list and then start bugging individual project meetings to announce it who aren't having someone from their team attend this meeting21:33
fungigordc: i think it reflects on those projects well or poorly depending on how involved they get in the cross-project specs discussions and implementations21:33
lifeless+1 ttx21:33
thingeettx: I did that once or twice21:33
dhellmannfungi : ++21:33
thingeettx: I will continue though :)21:33
gordcfungi: well there's also resource constaints21:34
gordcnot all projects have 100s of devs like nova.21:34
thingeenikhil: cross-project21:34
lifelessbandwidth...21:34
rockyggordc, if you or the project liaison covers your project's view and every project comments, then you don't have to worry about knowing other projects21:34
nikhilthx21:34
ttxgordc: the work for a smaller project is also likely to be more reasonable, but I see your point21:35
thingeegordc: yeah so I have a bullet that addresses that... I think for implementing, that's a different story. But it needs to be prioritized by the liaison bring it to the groups attention and ptl21:35
fungigordc: of course, resource-constrained projects already have plenty of things to cause them strife. i expect projects who can't keep up with their own work are likely to struggle with following cross-project specs too21:35
gordcrockyg: i guess my assumption is that there will be specs that cannot be silo'd to just a single project view. maybe a future concern21:35
annegentlefungi: ++21:35
thingeeok well again please comment on the review with suggestions. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/266072/321:36
lifelessfungi: does anyone truely keep up with their own work ?21:36
rockygalso, if all (most) projects comment and there are conflicting views, that's the start of an important discussion for all the involved projects21:36
thingeeI'd like to get this going start next week with getting initial liaisons so we can help those work on specs to bring attention21:36
gordcthingee: i'll comment there. i'm just being negative :)21:36
* lifeless goes off the deep philosophical end21:37
rockyglifeless, ++21:37
fungilifeless: probably not, some just get closer than others21:37
elmikolifeless: lol, so true...21:37
thingeeand so projects are aware of what's going on from a cross-project perspective21:37
gordcrockyg: yeah, that's another concern. how to get agreement with so many possibel voices...21:37
thingeeanything else before we move onto the next topic?21:37
gordcnothing from me21:37
fungii guess my point was that projects will prioritize cross-project spec work differently, so it's not necessary that you prioritize it above, say, getting your project working in the first place21:38
annegentlethingee: ttx: have you considered including the product working group or other working groups or asking them to review these?21:38
thingeeannegentle: absolutely. I work with the product working group, so this sort of plays into their goals as well21:38
ttxannegentle: anyone can review these, and I think thingee has started more actively reaching out21:38
annegentlethingee: ttx: ok cool21:39
annegentleesp thinking of the themes and getting Carol involved21:39
annegentlereally, I feel like we need to spread the workload21:39
thingeecarol is going to be out for a bit21:39
annegentleand perspective21:39
thingee#topic open discussion21:39
annegentlelike yummy peanut butter21:39
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: crossproject)"21:39
thingeeannouncement21:40
thingeeThe OpenStack Mentoring program sponsored by the women of openstack is looking for mentors!21:40
dimsoslo has decided to adopt the os-profiler project21:40
thingeewe need people with experience and we're looking at doing a workshop a day before the summit21:40
ttxthingee: following the tc meeting it appears we'll have to document how the tc members are supposed to interact with cross project specs21:41
thingeeexperience with contributing through translations, docs, code21:41
smcginnisthingee: Is there an etherpad or something with more details?21:41
thingeesignup https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1YQITea0ygvusZAeRdR6jL1VUfaNcZTCr2UqHTFSsxR4/viewform?c=0&w=121:41
smcginnisthingee: Thanks!21:41
rockygdims, ++21:41
thingeeHopefully we can dedicate sometime before the summit to helping our community grow healthy21:42
elmiko+121:42
thingeedims: oh interesting, I think I missed that on the ML21:42
rockygexercises for people huddled on the floor with their laptops ???21:42
* elmiko chuckles21:43
docaedohopefully I'm not dense, but looking for mentors of all genders right (and it's just *sponsored* by Women of OpenStack) right?21:43
thingeeif people want more information on the OpenStack mentoring program please contact ekhugen on #openstack-women21:43
annegentledocaedo: oh yes, mentors can be anyone21:43
thingeedocaedo: good question, yes all genders are welcome!21:43
nikhilannegentle: what's the scope of this program?21:43
nikhilis this different from official internship?21:44
thingeeplease spread the word too if you can't participate. Every bit helps21:44
annegentlenikhil: this isn't Outreachy, this is new, right thingee?21:44
annegentlenikhil: career mentoring or technical mentoring21:44
nikhilgotcha21:44
dimsthingee : spec merged just today, will drop a note on ML21:44
thingeecorrect this is different from outreachy. It has no set schedule like outreachy, and it's a way to have a pool of mentors accessible to people who need help contributing21:45
thingeeaside from the scheduled in person mentoring at the summit ;)21:45
fungiso not funded internships, more a mechanism for connecting people who want to learn with people who want to help them?21:45
thingeefungi: yes21:45
thingeefungi: thank you21:46
thingeeanything else?21:46
nikhilexcellent21:46
thingeeok, comment on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/266072/3 now and thanks everyone!21:46
nikhilI have one21:47
thingeeyay cross-project \o/21:47
* thingee stops21:47
nikhilthere's a very likely "openstack hackathon" global event happening  in the week of feb 2921:47
thingeenikhil: yes21:47
elmikoooh, neat21:47
annegentlenikhil: cool!21:47
* thingee every week is a hackathon21:47
nikhilcurrently planned in east & west coast US, one location in UK and one in China21:47
rockygYeah.  It's an outgrowth of the China Hackathon.  It's for bug fixes21:47
nikhilI am working on one location in India21:48
rockygnikhil, ++21:48
thingeelink details?21:48
nikhilI need help getting estimate of interest from people21:48
nikhilWe are coming up with it as logistical bottlenecks are being solved21:48
rockygIt's likely Huawei will host in SF Bay area21:48
nikhilSeemed like a good place to declare21:49
annegentlerockyg: nice21:49
jrollthere's a texas location too21:49
jrollafaik21:49
rockygSo, we'll need lots of cores ready to review the fixes...and others21:49
annegentleyeah get the dates and locations published as soon as you can21:50
rockygMaybe PTLs and cores could work up the list of bugs they want folks to focus on?21:50
bknudson_hopefully the participants will also do reviews21:50
thingeenikhil: I think it would be good if there it's a signup form/etherpad and mention on the ML21:50
thingeeI'm just now hearing about this anyways :)21:50
nikhilthingee: surely, I will try to get one before next mtg21:50
rockygDefinitely.  Part of this is so folks with different languages can do most of the discussion in their own languages.21:50
thingeeok thanks everyone!21:51
nikhilI would like to work with the mentoring group to get people involved in this21:51
thingee#endmeeting21:51
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings"21:51
openstackMeeting ended Tue Jan 12 21:51:23 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:51
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2016/crossproject.2016-01-12-21.02.html21:51
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2016/crossproject.2016-01-12-21.02.txt21:51
nikhilthanks21:51
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/crossproject/2016/crossproject.2016-01-12-21.02.log.html21:51
elmikothanks thingee21:51
jrollthanks thingee21:51
thingeenikhil: that would be awesome. I'm sure the organizers can work with you21:51
rockygThanks!21:51
nikhil++21:51
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ttxthingee: this channel doesn't have enough people subscribed to it yet, we should make more noise21:53
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* thingee plays dubstep21:53
thingeethere's your noise21:54
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ttxthe art of noise21:54
thingeelol I knew diablo_rojo would comment21:54
diablo_rojothingee: Going to another the day I get back from the Cinder meetup lol21:54
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