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| amrith | hi nikhil, meeting time is now, right? | 17:02 |
|---|---|---|
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| tjcocozz | ++ | 17:02 |
| vilobhmm11 | hi | 17:03 |
| amrith | hi vilobhmm11 | 17:03 |
| amrith | I guess I'm in the right place :) | 17:03 |
| vilobhmm11 | hello amrith | 17:03 |
| vilobhmm11 | #startmeeting quotas-wg | 17:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Apr 5 17:03:31 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is vilobhmm11. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: quotas-wg)" | 17:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'quotas_wg' | 17:03 |
| raildo | p/ | 17:03 |
| raildo | o/* | 17:03 |
| vilobhmm11 | hi raildo, amrith | 17:03 |
| vilobhmm11 | will wait for few more min before others join | 17:04 |
| raildo | hi vilobhmm11 :) | 17:04 |
| vilobhmm11 | hi | 17:05 |
| vilobhmm11 | so lets starts | 17:05 |
| vilobhmm11 | start | 17:05 |
| vilobhmm11 | #topic agenda | 17:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "agenda (Meeting topic: quotas-wg)" | 17:05 | |
| vilobhmm11 | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/quotas-wg-meeting-agenda | 17:05 |
| amrith | I have to confess that I've not read the latest version of the spec. | 17:06 |
| vilobhmm11 | as part of action item for last week we decided to drop an e-mail to the ML for getting more insights into reservations and are they really needed or not | 17:06 |
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| vilobhmm11 | amrith, DuncanT : ^^ | 17:07 |
| vilobhmm11 | amrith : sure np, I can go over it in a min | 17:08 |
| vilobhmm11 | since i didn't see a conversation i started one yesterday http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/openstack/dev/53889 | 17:08 |
| vilobhmm11 | please feel free to share your opinions on this ML | 17:08 |
| raildo | vilobhmm11: on the spec, I didn't find anything about the db migration between our current solution and this new service/lib | 17:09 |
| vilobhmm11 | so that we get more insights on this topic and hopefully can come to a conclusion in next week or so | 17:09 |
| raildo | vilobhmm11: this will oln works for new deploys? | 17:09 |
| raildo | will only* | 17:09 |
| vilobhmm11 | raildo : sure will come to it in a min l; let me just finish the reservation part | 17:10 |
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| raildo | vilobhmm11: sure | 17:10 |
| amrith | vilobhmm11, I read the ml and I didn't respond because it seemed more to be targeted at the projects like nova/cinder/... | 17:10 |
| DuncanT | Hi, sorry I'm late | 17:10 |
| vilobhmm11 | np DuncanT | 17:10 |
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| DuncanT | I saw the thread, and the reply about nested quotas is probably a stronger point than my usual one | 17:11 |
| vilobhmm11 | amrith : its not ; the title itself says cross-project but irrespectiev of that please share your opinion so that we as a community can get benefit from it | 17:11 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : are you talking in context of reservations ? | 17:12 |
| raildo | nowadays, reservation it's really important in a big deploy. we now that the current solution have a lot of issues related to query atomicity... so we can have race conditions and other erros | 17:12 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Yes | 17:12 |
| raildo | and the service can use the reservetion to retry/rollback, instead of just say? "hey, we can't enforce the quota" | 17:13 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: My usual reason is that volume workers (or the scheduler) can go down, causing the thing processing the reservation to be lost, but in every case we have something in the DB that needs fixing up anyway, so we can release the quota there | 17:13 |
| DuncanT | raildo: Why does than need reservations, rather than just atomically decrementing the quota in API, which is way easier to get right (at least without nested quotas) | 17:14 |
| amrith | DuncanT, isn't the issue with keeping the reservation and allocation in sync with the actual deployment? | 17:15 |
| amrith | i.e, would you want to hold a transaction open for the time it takes to provision an instance? | 17:15 |
| amrith | that's my undertanding | 17:15 |
| amrith | no? | 17:15 |
| raildo | DuncanT: I'm not defending the reservation use, I'm just trying to explain how it's used today | 17:15 |
| raildo | DuncanT: the problem is this "atomically drecrementing" doesn't work properly | 17:16 |
| DuncanT | amrith: You can just commit the quota change when the API request is accepted and release it on failure, rather than bothering with the reservation | 17:16 |
| raildo | with our current solution | 17:16 |
| DuncanT | raildo: Atomic reservatioins are harder than atomic decrement | 17:16 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT, amrith : imho the quota consumption from the quota_usages table and change of state for the resource should be one transaction | 17:16 |
| amrith | DuncanT, I don't follow that last statement (decrements are harder) | 17:17 |
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| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT, raildo, amrith : all of these are good points would request you to reply to ML so that we can have the conversation going on and take a better decision. | 17:17 |
| raildo | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1301532 | 17:18 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1301532 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Quotas can be exceeded by making highly parallel requests" [Medium,Confirmed] | 17:18 |
| DuncanT | amrith: update quota.available = N-1 where quota = N and project = foo; in a transation, retrying if it comes back matching 0 records (since the available quota changed | 17:18 |
| DuncanT | raildo: I'm more familiar with the cinde rbugs, where the summing of reservations isn't atomic | 17:19 |
| DuncanT | amrith: Anything with reservations is going to involve more records under the transaction, never fewer, so will always be at least as hard to commit | 17:19 |
| vilobhmm11 | raildo : thats there but does reservation guarantee fairness always ? can't we do without it ? do we really need it ? is what i am coming to which is what the ML is discussing about http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/openstack/dev/53889 | 17:20 |
| raildo | DuncanT: nether reservations and nether commit (independent of nested quota) | 17:20 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : so do you mean to say we don't need reservations ? | 17:21 |
| vilobhmm11 | atleast in cinder | 17:21 |
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| raildo | vilobhmm11: imo, no, we don't need reservation, but if we are removing this phase we need explain better what part of the new solution are making this work | 17:21 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: I don't thing reservations improve fairness, no. A reservation is sematically the same as having consumed the quota. Rollback of nested quota is the only usecase so far, but we can always release whatever we would have released in the delete case | 17:22 |
| vilobhmm11 | raildo : sure we will do that | 17:22 |
| * amrith reads ... head hurts | 17:22 | |
| vilobhmm11 | first need to decide if we need one | 17:22 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: I wonder if nested quotas on a busy system will livelock the db though? | 17:22 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: but then I don't see reservations solving that either | 17:22 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : ok…by fairness mean reservation help to to reserve a set of resources beforehand and hence eventually preventing any other upcoming request (serial or parallel) to exceed quota if because of original request the project might have reached the quota limits. | 17:24 |
| vilobhmm11 | #action Lets discuss more about reservation on ML. Would request everyone to share there opinion here http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/openstack/dev/53889 | 17:25 |
| amrith | +1 | 17:25 |
| vilobhmm11 | raildo : coming back to your question | 17:26 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: To do that, you need to do an atomic sum of the existing quota usage + the existing reservations... that's no easier than just atomically consuming the quota. Same effect too as long as you can guarentee quota release on failure | 17:26 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: The lack of atomics in the current implementation is a critical problem | 17:26 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : that what i am saying quota consumption + resource state change should be under one transaction. There are many unknown on this topic and hence would like us to chart it out. | 17:28 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Why resource state change? Which state change? | 17:28 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : in-use => active | 17:29 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: A cinder volume can go through several state changes on the way to in-use | 17:29 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: As long as you give the quota back on failure, there's no need or reason for it to be in the same transaction that I can see | 17:30 |
| vilobhmm11 | raildo : last week we decided to that it makes more sense to design delimeter as a lib than a service. Doing so has advantage that we need not worry abt data migration as athe respective projects will own quota relaed information | 17:31 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Something still needs to get the data out of whatever format it is currently in and into whatever format the library needs | 17:32 |
| vilobhmm11 | raildo : does that make sense? | 17:32 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : yes and the engine will take care of it | 17:33 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Which engine? Sorry, I've missed something here | 17:33 |
| vilobhmm11 | The Quota Engine as proposed in spec | 17:33 |
| vilobhmm11 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/284454/ | 17:33 |
| vilobhmm11 | Duncant : would request you to go through the spec https://review.openstack.org/#/c/284454/ if you haven't done so | 17:34 |
| vilobhmm11 | where I have covered in detail about the various aspects of the library "Delimiter" | 17:34 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: I'll go through again before further comment, thanks. I don't remember enough of it | 17:34 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : np | 17:35 |
| vilobhmm11 | so DuncanT, amrith, raildo : thats it from my end. Do you guys have anything more to talk about ? | 17:36 |
| vilobhmm11 | I will post a new revision of the spec by today eod | 17:36 |
| amrith | vilobhmm11, I'm going to respond to the ML and read the scrollback again. | 17:36 |
| amrith | then I'll read the new spec | 17:37 |
| vilobhmm11 | amrith : sure thanks! | 17:37 |
| amrith | also, we can ignore the action item re: new meeting time. | 17:37 |
| amrith | sorry agenda item | 17:37 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Ok, I've re-read the spec, I don't think it covers the data migration issues in enough detail, there are loads of issues I can see. | 17:37 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: I'll put them in an email, I don't thing they're going to be easy to detail on IRC | 17:38 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : do you still think we might come across data migration issues even if delimeter is a library ? sure DuncanT that would really help | 17:39 |
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| raildo | vilobhmm11: sounds good to me | 17:40 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: It being a library doesn't change much - there's still existing data, being accessed in real rime (including reservations etc) by the existing code, that you have to be able to live upgrade from with parallel accesses still happening by the old code | 17:40 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : I think the data migration scripts in respective projects can take care of it…the conversion of data format and the computation based of it would be the responsibility of the engine. | 17:41 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : lets go step by step | 17:41 |
| vilobhmm11 | #1. quota_engine = delimiter.QuotaEngine() | 17:41 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Migration script can't do bulk data conversion, since it locks the db for too long on a live system | 17:41 |
| vilobhmm11 | create engine | 17:42 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : ok but how its being done right now…don't we see the problems in current design ? | 17:43 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : would be nice to go through the example on a step by step basis | 17:44 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Yes, there are issues, but there's no longer a 'stop everything' point during upgrade - we are live upgrade now, so changing data formats is much, much harder | 17:45 |
| amrith | vilobhmm11, sorry, have to run; just got tapped on the shoulder by someone who has to speak with me. | 17:45 |
| vilobhmm11 | amrith : sure… | 17:45 |
| vilobhmm11 | np | 17:45 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: I'm happy to go through an example, I'm just not sure what the problems will be until we know the rough requirements of the new code | 17:46 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : so if you can comment on the spec with all these problem and a step by step example as in how we might run into it without the library having the control of data | 17:47 |
| vilobhmm11 | would be happy to address and enhance the spec | 17:47 |
| DuncanT | Sure. It's going to be vague though, until the new library is firmed up a bit | 17:47 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : it shouldn't be vague ; it should be based of what you have experience before or what problems you see in the current code which can be improved upon | 17:48 |
| vilobhmm11 | #topic open-dicussion | 17:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open-dicussion (Meeting topic: quotas-wg)" | 17:49 | |
| vilobhmm11 | since we are running out of time would like to see if anyone has any comments suggestion | 17:49 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Reservations or not in the new code? That changes lots of things. Exactly how are we going to store hieracical quota data? That changes a few things. | 17:49 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : hence I wanted to chart it out first ; will "delimiter" - quota lib need reservation or not based on our prior experience and code understanding…lets see if the ML helps | 17:51 |
| vilobhmm11 | raildo, DuncanT : if we don't have anything more to discuss we should be good then we can meet again next week. Feel free to update the agenda https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/quotas-wg-meeting-agenda | 17:53 |
| raildo | vilobhmm11: nothing from my side | 17:53 |
| DuncanT | Will do, thanks | 17:53 |
| vilobhmm11 | thanks raildo, DuncanT | 17:54 |
| DuncanT | Nothing more for now | 17:54 |
| vilobhmm11 | see you again next week | 17:54 |
| vilobhmm11 | #action Discuss more on reservation on ML thread | 17:54 |
| vilobhmm11 | #endmeeting | 17:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:54 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Apr 5 17:54:54 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:54 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-04-05-17.03.html | 17:54 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-04-05-17.03.txt | 17:54 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-04-05-17.03.log.html | 17:55 |
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| fungi | reminder: cross-project specs meeting skipped this week | 21:04 |
| fungi | http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-April/091381.html | 21:04 |
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