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| nikhil | o/ | 17:00 |
|---|---|---|
| vilobhmm11 | Courtesy quotas-wg meeting reminder: nikhil, vilobhmm, DuncanT, mc_nair, ninag, amrith | 17:01 |
| vilobhmm11 | hi all | 17:01 |
| vilobhmm11 | #startmeeting quotas-wg | 17:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue May 10 17:01:19 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is vilobhmm11. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:01 |
| vilobhmm11 | hi all | 17:01 |
| nikhil | ola | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: quotas-wg)" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'quotas_wg' | 17:01 |
| nikhil | o/ | 17:01 |
| vilobhmm11 | hi nikhil :) | 17:01 |
| piet | o/ | 17:01 |
| flwang1 | o/ | 17:01 |
| amrith | ./ | 17:01 |
| nikhil | #info agenda - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/quotas-wg-meeting-agenda | 17:02 |
| amrith | DuncanT was looking for meeting time a short while ago | 17:02 |
| vilobhmm11 | welcome everyone ..lets start | 17:02 |
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| vilobhmm11 | #topic sync on status | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "sync on status (Meeting topic: quotas-wg)" | 17:02 | |
| vilobhmm11 | 1. last week we created a launchpad page for delimiter | 17:03 |
| vilobhmm11 | https://launchpad.net/delimiter | 17:03 |
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| vilobhmm11 | 2. We also have source code here | 17:03 |
| vilobhmm11 | https://github.com/vilobhmm/delimiter | 17:03 |
| * DuncanT waves | 17:03 | |
| vilobhmm11 | setting up new project in openstack takes some time so meanwhile code will reside here https://github.com/vilobhmm/delimiter and then we can migrate under the openstack repo | 17:04 |
| vilobhmm11 | itisha is working on the effort to set things up for delimiter | 17:04 |
| vilobhmm11 | #3. a summary of decisions made in the design summit was sent out to the ML | 17:05 |
| nikhil | #info itisha is working on the effort to set things up for delimiter | 17:05 |
| vilobhmm11 | http://osdir.com/ml/openstack-dev/2016-05/msg00393.html | 17:05 |
| vilobhmm11 | link for the summary sent to ML | 17:05 |
| vilobhmm11 | that were the updates from last week…so spending time to get things going by doing some ground work | 17:06 |
| vilobhmm11 | anyone has any questions, suggestions till now ? | 17:06 |
| vilobhmm11 | for every meetings agenda we maintain this etherpad https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/quotas-wg-meeting-agenda | 17:07 |
| vilobhmm11 | we have detailed out today's agenda here https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/quotas-wg-meeting-agenda please check | 17:07 |
| vilobhmm11 | we will directly move on to #6 now as its kind of high priority | 17:07 |
| vilobhmm11 | #agenda Discussion on features for Newton | 17:07 |
| vilobhmm11 | so I have few suggestions ; need feedback from the team | 17:08 |
| vilobhmm11 | For Newton we should focus on :- | 17:08 |
| vilobhmm11 | #1. Enforce Quota : Get inputs from respective projects and enforce quota. | 17:08 |
| vilobhmm11 | which involves | 17:08 |
| vilobhmm11 | #1.1. Design Quota Engine | 17:08 |
| vilobhmm11 | #1.2. Basic Quota Engine Objects | 17:09 |
| flwang1 | do we need to talk about #5? | 17:09 |
| vilobhmm11 | flwang : sure we can but it will be a subpart in #6 imho | 17:09 |
| vilobhmm11 | since its more of a implementation detail and we will discuss this as part of features | 17:10 |
| vilobhmm11 | does that makes sense ? | 17:10 |
| vilobhmm11 | #1.3 Unit Tests | 17:10 |
| flwang1 | vilobhmm11: ok, cool | 17:10 |
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| vilobhmm11 | #1.4 Functional Tests | 17:10 |
| vilobhmm11 | #1.5 Document changes | 17:10 |
| vilobhmm11 | #1.6 Seperate driver for different project models or single driver to handle all the different project models (flat, nested) | 17:11 |
| vilobhmm11 | we can discuss #1.6 first since we have seen interest in that | 17:11 |
| nikhil | no, let's go one by one please | 17:12 |
| vilobhmm11 | ok | 17:12 |
| nikhil | what is the purpose of this section? | 17:12 |
| nikhil | are we trying to generate action items out of it? | 17:12 |
| nikhil | or are we going to discuss use cases? | 17:12 |
| vilobhmm11 | both…for few you don't need use-cases for example designing quota objects..but for few you do need…1.6 | 17:13 |
| vilobhmm11 | we would want to have some action items to get things done | 17:13 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : ^^ | 17:14 |
| nikhil | ok, then I would encourage to split these two things | 17:14 |
| vilobhmm11 | ok | 17:14 |
| nikhil | mostly as we've a lot of interest in this work | 17:14 |
| nikhil | while one sub-team works on foundational stuff | 17:14 |
| nikhil | others can focus on seeing the feasiblity of adoption | 17:14 |
| nikhil | just trying to get a sense of whether the bare minimul will work for any one project? | 17:15 |
| vilobhmm11 | so first of all thats what i wanted to ask; does these features makes sense; is it too much; too less; ? | 17:15 |
| nikhil | basically, do we need to start discussing if any project wants to adopt it in newton? | 17:15 |
| vilobhmm11 | glance :) | 17:15 |
| vilobhmm11 | ha | 17:16 |
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| nikhil | ok, so for glance I think we've 3 people here :) | 17:16 |
| vilobhmm11 | cool | 17:16 |
| nikhil | flwang1: sudipto and me | 17:16 |
| DuncanT | I hope to do a POC patch for cinder using it, though I don't expect it to get merged in Newton | 17:16 |
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| nikhil | we would like to figure out what we can do in glance and in here to get started | 17:16 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : good to know that..that will be nice | 17:16 |
| nikhil | that way we don't step on each others toes and also the progress of lib isn't halted | 17:17 |
| nikhil | (that's the requirements part) | 17:17 |
| DuncanT | My employer seems determined to fill my time with other things though, so it is a background task | 17:17 |
| DuncanT | Mostly I just want to make sure the library isn't shaping up in a way that makes it impossible to use in cinder | 17:17 |
| nikhil | the more important question is how can be craft the foundational work | 17:17 |
| vilobhmm11 | so nikhil, sudipto, flwang1 : what are your expectations; requirements from the lib for newton (that can be achieved in newton timeframe)? | 17:17 |
| vilobhmm11 | let me frame it in different way | 17:18 |
| nikhil | I think DuncanT and I are saying the same thing | 17:18 |
| vilobhmm11 | the earlier question | 17:18 |
| vilobhmm11 | ok | 17:18 |
| vilobhmm11 | we would like to keep it more generic and not specific to a project as we discussed in design summit | 17:18 |
| flwang1 | i'm thinking if we(zaqar) can adopt as well for limiting queue number | 17:18 |
| vilobhmm11 | flwang1 : thats nice | 17:19 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil, DuncanT, others : because if you see the api's exposed by library | 17:19 |
| vilobhmm11 | check_quota(usage_details, objects/tables to operate upon, generation-id) | 17:20 |
| vilobhmm11 | which is quite generic and most of the things are provided by respective projects | 17:20 |
| nikhil | ok | 17:20 |
| DuncanT | I still a little fuzzy on the generation stuff, but I will read up some more before asking questions - I'll be clear by next week, one way or the other. | 17:21 |
| DuncanT | Other than that, the design looks ok at a first look | 17:22 |
| nikhil | in a gist, gen_id should work for you unless you want reservation | 17:22 |
| amrith | DuncanT, drop me a note if you have q's about that | 17:22 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/283253/ - generation-id stuff details | 17:22 |
| flwang1 | vilobhmm11: : i'm repeating DuncanT's words. where to get the generation info? keystone? | 17:22 |
| amrith | no | 17:22 |
| flwang1 | what happened if there is no HM | 17:22 |
| Qijing | me too, I need to understand how generation to ensure sequencing | 17:22 |
| amrith | generation infor should be in the library/delimiter | 17:22 |
| amrith | and NEVER exposed | 17:22 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: we need documentation on the generation_id work | 17:22 |
| DuncanT | amrith: I plan too :-) Thanks | 17:23 |
| vilobhmm11 | flwang1 : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/283253/ - more details | 17:23 |
| nikhil | looks like our first action item | 17:23 |
| flwang1 | vilobhmm11: cool, thanks | 17:23 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: I think sudipto can help us get some official doc page on the gen_id stuff | 17:23 |
| nikhil | he was looking at things from nova perspective | 17:24 |
| vilobhmm11 | amrith : shouldn't the generation-id info be passed from the caller ? since it is associated with a point in time view of resource that the project has seen | 17:24 |
| nikhil | flwang1: and I can discuss it for glance | 17:24 |
| flwang1 | nikhil: awesome | 17:24 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : that would be great; if not i can include one in the repo | 17:24 |
| amrith | vilobhmm11, No | 17:24 |
| Qijing | it looks the generation-id is used internally | 17:25 |
| vilobhmm11 | amrith : may be then i am missing something; please clarify | 17:25 |
| nikhil | gen_id seems like something in the lib as it involves info/comput of the resource limits/usage | 17:25 |
| amrith | rather than doing it here, maybe a short writeup that you can put in your doc? | 17:25 |
| vilobhmm11 | amrith : that works; will connect after the meeting | 17:26 |
| nikhil | please create a etherpad | 17:26 |
| nikhil | (at least) | 17:26 |
| vilobhmm11 | #action vilobhmm to come up with a doc explaining about generation-id and how it will be used by projects consuming delimiter | 17:26 |
| vilobhmm11 | #action vilobhmm send out for review the generation id stuff and get feedback…include it under docs section of https://github.com/vilobhmm/delimiter | 17:27 |
| nikhil | I think we also need a etherpad explaining the foundational stuff | 17:27 |
| nikhil | check_ enforce_ delete_ quotas | 17:28 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : i thought thats already covered in the spec | 17:28 |
| vilobhmm11 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/284454 | 17:28 |
| vilobhmm11 | or if its not clear in spec i can update the spec with more details | 17:29 |
| nikhil | ok, let's chat after the meeting on this. | 17:29 |
| vilobhmm11 | please suggest and i can have an action item for it; whatever is easier | 17:29 |
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| vilobhmm11 | sure | 17:29 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : do you still want to have a discussion on which project want to consume delimiter and then talk about features for newton ? | 17:30 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil, flwang1, sudipto : ^^ | 17:30 |
| vilobhmm11 | i am open to options | 17:31 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: I want to talk about #2, 3, 4, 5 from etherpad | 17:31 |
| nikhil | that is all related to glance | 17:31 |
| nikhil | and that is somewhat tied to foundational stuff | 17:31 |
| nikhil | (bare min required to get things rolling in glance) | 17:31 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil sure…may be we can revisit #6 in next meeting then | 17:32 |
| nikhil | works for me | 17:32 |
| vilobhmm11 | #action : discuss about #6 from 05/10 agenda on 05/17 https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/quotas-wg-meeting-agenda | 17:32 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : lets talk about #2,3,4 | 17:33 |
| vilobhmm11 | over to you | 17:33 |
| nikhil | #topic updates | 17:33 |
| nikhil | So, the update is that glance team thinks it's a 6 month job to implement quotas (nested) and 5mo (for simple -- extending existing logic) | 17:34 |
| nikhil | I wanted to get feedback from other teams on that perspective. | 17:34 |
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| vilobhmm11 | imho thats correct…if that includes detailed unit tests, functional tests | 17:35 |
| nikhil | From the spec, it looks like the library will be a thin layer and we can implement it in 6 weeks. But the research for some projects like nova shows it may not be the case. | 17:35 |
| nikhil | well, development ideally should be TDD | 17:35 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : +2 for TDD | 17:36 |
| nikhil | (I want to avoid unit tests as something separate from normal code proposals) | 17:36 |
| flwang1 | a silly question, will the lib talk to database layer? | 17:36 |
| nikhil | so, do we think we can get the lib running in 6 weeks? | 17:36 |
| nikhil | yes | 17:36 |
| nikhil | flwang1: yes | 17:37 |
| nikhil | (API <-> lib <-> DB) | 17:37 |
| vilobhmm11 | flwang1 : yes; althought it won't maintain any db of its own | 17:37 |
| flwang1 | nikhil: wow, if so, it may impact a lot and i think it's a little bit hard to complete in 6 weeks | 17:37 |
| flwang1 | since it will impact the api | 17:37 |
| nikhil | I am talking about the POC | 17:37 |
| nikhil | it should not impact API | 17:38 |
| vilobhmm11 | i agree with flwang1 | 17:38 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : for 6 weeks we need more people | 17:38 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: we've at least 6 people here who can contribute! | 17:38 |
| nikhil | and that's why I wanted to break down dependencies | 17:38 |
| vilobhmm11 | ok thats gr8 then if everyone can actively contribute and we have deliverable plans for every week it should be do-able | 17:39 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : ^^ | 17:39 |
| nikhil | basically for glance to even try to do this in newton, we need the lib ready to be adopted before june 15 | 17:39 |
| vilobhmm11 | ok | 17:40 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: that would be awesome, if we can discuss the foundational stuff once done by you we can diversify the tasks | 17:40 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : i didn't get that | 17:40 |
| vilobhmm11 | for me the foundational stuff include | 17:41 |
| vilobhmm11 | quota engine | 17:41 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: we can chat more on the logistics after the meeting. I just want us to think us in terms of lego pieces and not the entire workflow atm. | 17:41 |
| vilobhmm11 | basic set of api's to be exposed to outside world check_quota, enforce_quota | 17:41 |
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| vilobhmm11 | nikhil : sure need to define foundational stuff :) as it means different for different people…please carry on | 17:42 |
| nikhil | thanks! | 17:42 |
| nikhil | #topic Complexity comparison of independent quota implementation and nested (non-floating) one | 17:42 |
| DuncanT | Once there's enough defined for me to start bashing out code, I'll look at the db migration issue | 17:42 |
| nikhil | So, glance (and may be other prjs) implement quota as aconfig value | 17:43 |
| DuncanT | Sorry, should have left that until AoB | 17:43 |
| nikhil | which is something I defined as a comment onthe spec | 17:43 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: how complex do you think it will be to accomodate what exists for ops in prod env today? | 17:43 |
| nikhil | basically, if you see the response from Tim Bell to the email thread started by you | 17:44 |
| nikhil | he wants us to implement delimiter that will keep business logic consistent for different drivers | 17:44 |
| nikhil | (and that is somewhat tied to the design question #5) | 17:45 |
| vilobhmm11 | sure | 17:45 |
| DuncanT | If you use different drivers (nested, not nested, etc) then they need a consistent data model anyway, for when an operator wants to move from one to the other | 17:45 |
| nikhil | exactly | 17:46 |
| nikhil | and I think that's too complex | 17:46 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: ? | 17:46 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT, nikhil : trying to understand the problem here | 17:47 |
| vilobhmm11 | why having different drivers will be a problem | 17:47 |
| nikhil | say if the operator today are using config to enforce quota (comsumption calculated using something like a "file" command) | 17:47 |
| vilobhmm11 | ok | 17:48 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Operators using one driver (e.g. flat) will want to be able to move to e.g. nested in the future, without downtime (at least in cinder, nova) | 17:48 |
| nikhil | if we move to nested, that logic will be different | 17:48 |
| nikhil | :-) | 17:48 |
| nikhil | see this ties with upgrade story | 17:48 |
| nikhil | we need to break things down, now | 17:49 |
| vilobhmm11 | nikhil, DuncanT : the way i had implemented it was that the source of truth for both flat and nested remains the same | 17:49 |
| nikhil | before we are stuck arguing later | 17:49 |
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| vilobhmm11 | just that in case of nested we have few more attributes to the tables into consideration than the flat approach | 17:49 |
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| nikhil | but it's not just flat that people will be using | 17:50 |
| vilobhmm11 | so lets say if we admin wants to move from "flat" => "nested" then can something be done to take these additional attributes into consideration for computation | 17:50 |
| nikhil | there's a ton of combinations that one can have while using quotas in production | 17:50 |
| nikhil | the business logic should be opaque as far as library is concerned | 17:51 |
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| nikhil | like jay said at the summit, this is thin wrapper on top of DB tables | 17:52 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: In the cinder case, we've also got values in the existing db tables for quota limits that we need a way of live migrating across on a running system | 17:52 |
| vilobhmm11 | or lets say if we have seperate drivers then changing the driver in config to use for quota computation can help for example for "flat" => dbquotadriver whereas for nested => nesteddbquotadriver and the driver will have the business logic….which will be opaque (since its already getting all the inputs from consuming project) …the lib won't be smart enough todistinguish this data is coming from which project | 17:53 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: Calling all the tables 'delimiter_*' and having a 'get_existing_limits' config controlled callback will take care of the live upgrade, among designs | 17:53 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: The different logics need to be kept in rough sync htough, so one can consume the other's data | 17:54 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : delimiter won't own any value in db; all the db migration and stuff is individual project responsibility | 17:55 |
| vilobhmm11 | delimiter will consume from what exist in the project database and rely on that | 17:55 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm11: can you please add a research action item here? we need to send out to resp folks to get inputs from their projects I think. | 17:55 |
| DuncanT | vilobhmm11: It needs to be able to handle schema differences between projects then | 17:55 |
| nikhil | I realize that piet is here and didn't want to consume all the time for my topic when he wants to discuss UX aspects | 17:56 |
| piet | ;^) | 17:56 |
| vilobhmm11 | #action : start ML discussion about Seperate driver for different project models or single driver to handle all the different project models (flat, nested). - nikhil | 17:56 |
| nikhil | works, thanks. | 17:56 |
| vilobhmm11 | hi piet | 17:56 |
| piet | Hi! | 17:56 |
| vilobhmm11 | please go ahead | 17:57 |
| vilobhmm11 | we just have 5 more min before we wrap up | 17:57 |
| vilobhmm11 | and realized we don't have time for open discussion today | 17:57 |
| piet | So, I’m the current PTL for the OpenStack UX project. | 17:57 |
| piet | We’re going down the path of identifying research needs for the next six months. | 17:57 |
| vilobhmm11 | DuncanT : will chat with you on this after the meeting | 17:57 |
| piet | I'd like to focus on cross-project quotas since it was raised as an issue by operators | 17:58 |
| piet | Inlcuding operators from places like BestBuy and TWC | 17:59 |
| piet | There are several different research methodologies we can use, eg interviews or usability studies, that can be used based on the project’s specific needs. | 17:59 |
| vilobhmm11 | piet : sure that would be great | 17:59 |
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| piet | We need to start hammering on ways to use the time | 17:59 |
| nikhil | I would really like that input piet | 18:00 |
| nikhil | basically -- are people happy with what's currently out there and if not, how can we make it better | 18:00 |
| piet | For example, there is a ton of value in just watching operators complete tasks with quotas | 18:00 |
| piet | nikhil Yep, helps to prioritize efforts. | 18:01 |
| piet | I have a meeting with one of you this week, but will roll-out the research plan to the rest of the group for revieww | 18:01 |
| piet | Is that cool with you? | 18:02 |
| piet | Can also start a discussion through the ML | 18:03 |
| nikhil | piet: would you be able to join us next week? | 18:03 |
| piet | At this point, I just need to understand whether you would like a slot before the next summit - otherwise, I'll give it to another project | 18:03 |
| piet | nikhil yep | 18:04 |
| nikhil | we can discuss UX stuff first so that you don't have to wait the full hour. | 18:04 |
| piet | ;^) | 18:04 |
| nikhil | vilobhmm seems disconnected | 18:04 |
| nikhil | piet: I think the research study seems essential | 18:04 |
| piet | Does the group have an active ML? | 18:04 |
| piet | nikhil k | 18:05 |
| piet | I think we're five over... | 18:05 |
| nikhil | piet: subscription to [cross-project] [quota] [delimiter] on openstack-dev | 18:05 |
| nikhil | yeah :) | 18:05 |
| nikhil | thanks all | 18:05 |
| piet | Cheers | 18:05 |
| nikhil | #endmeeting | 18:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:05 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue May 10 18:05:49 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-05-10-17.01.html | 18:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-05-10-17.01.txt | 18:05 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/quotas_wg/2016/quotas_wg.2016-05-10-17.01.log.html | 18:05 |
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| thingee | no cross-project meetings - times are a changing http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/094443.html | 21:07 |
| thingee | standby for more things with cross-project stuff on the ML tho | 21:08 |
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