Tuesday, 2010-09-28

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edayparty time?21:01
* eday pokes jaypipes 21:01
jaypipeseday: waiting a couple minutes..21:01
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jaypipessoren: yes?21:02
jaypipesalrighty, let's get started...21:02
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep 28 21:03:09 2010 UTC.  The chair is jaypipes. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.21:03
jaypipes#topic python version21:03
sorenjaypipes: I was just waving.21:03
jaypipesany objections to making 2.6 the standard?21:03
jaypipesmyself, I think it's a reasonable requirement.21:04
jaypipescreiht: pls elaborate.21:04
creihtIf one of the major desires for openstack is getting people on board, then I believe that for now python 2.5 support should be considered21:04
jaypipescreiht: other than debian, what platform does not support 2.621:05
creihtThere are still a lot of people running distros that are limited 2.521:05
jaypipescreiht: which ones?21:05
anotherjesseIn the past there have been parts that broke in 2.5 with nova - trying to remember if it is still the case21:05
jaypipescreiht: that is incorrect.21:05
jaypipescreiht: it's in EPEL.21:05
creihtthe gap from 2.5 to 2.6 is small I believe for what it buys us21:05
jaypipescreiht: other than context managers, what are we talking?21:06
creihtThe redhat places that I have been at before didn't use EPEL21:06
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anotherjessewe used to use multi-processing which caused issues in 2.521:06
jaypipesactually, that ? is for all, not just creiht :)21:06
jaypipesah, yes.21:06
anotherjessebut there might have been other issues as well21:06
creihtjaypipes: 2.5 has context managers21:06
jaypipesnosetests uses multiprocessing module as well.21:06
jaypipescreiht: right, I asked what other than context managers.. :)21:06
sorenWe have a bunch of dependencies that aren't in *any* distro other than Ubuntu.21:07
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jaypipescreiht: b/c that can be fixed with a simple import from __future__, right?21:07
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creihtjaypipes: correct21:07
sorenHow are we expecting people running CentOS to deal with those?21:07
jaypipessoren: pls be specific, for the meeting notes, if not for people's benefit ;)21:07
sorengflags, eventlet 0.9.12, greenlets, pyredis (for now), sqlalchemy 0.6.3, ...21:08
sorenProbably more that I don't know about. RHEL is ancient. It's probably missing all sorts of stuff.21:08
creihtI would argue that it is easier to get some other packages installed, since python is used for things like package management21:08
creihtit is more difficult to upgrade21:09
jaypipessoren: AFAIK, all those except for gflags is in pypi, no?21:09
sorenpython 2.5 and 2.6 can peacefully coexist.21:09
sorenjaypipes: No clue.21:09
sorenYou don't have to remove 2.5 to get 2.6.21:09
creihtsoren: in theory yes, but ops people do not like that21:09
sorenWhat /do/ they like? :)21:09
jaypipesthe only package that is a pain IMHO is M2Crypto since you need dev headers to compile it...21:09
sorenjaypipes: Same for eventlet.21:10
sorenjaypipes: I believe.21:10
jaypipessoren: ok.21:10
creihtAll I'm saying is that it is my opinion that it will be easier to get adoption if we support python 2.521:10
jaypipesOK, this information is good, but it's kind of besides the point about 2.5 vs 2.6, no?21:10
DavieySurely a consistent coding requirements(.txt) is required...21:10
jaypipesDaviey: ?21:11
creihtbesides, the gap in functionality between 2.5 and 2.6 is fairly small21:11
DavieyCan the merge masters really be expected to test against all kinda variables like inconsistent deps?21:11
jaypipescreiht: the big one is multiprocessing module.21:11
creihtwhich is available as an external module for 2.521:11
jaypipescreiht: also good to know :)21:11
creihtgranted possibly with a couple of caveats21:11
* Daviey would suggest 2.6 makes sense... if something breaks for 2.5 "patches welcome".21:11
dabocreiht: But 2.6 has a forward path to 3.x; 2.5 doesn't21:12
jaypipesgood point.21:12
sorenDoes anyone have any overview of what in Swift or Nova currently does not work with py2.5?21:12
xtoddxdaviey: that is idempotent with supporting 2.521:12
creihtI'm not saying we always have to support 2.5, I'm saying just for now21:12
sorenI mean.. How much work would it be to make it supported (ignoring the maintenance burden for a little bit).21:13
creihtit is going to be a long time before everything will be in place to support 321:13
jaypipessoren: Nova would have to have the pool stuff reworked to include external multiprocessing module and use import from __future__ for context managers.21:13
creihtsoren: I think the only thing left for swift is changing the default ssl to use OpenSSL21:13
creihtdabo: 2.7 is really where the path forward to 3.0 is21:13
sorenOk, so let's pretend we decide to support 2.5, too.21:13
creiht2.6 really doesn't buy you much on the road to 3.021:13
sorenThis is supposedly to get poeple running old distros to run OpenStack.21:14
creihtor even try it21:14
jaypipesOK, so the options are 1) patch nova/swift to be 2.5 compatible, 2) use 2.6 as the required version. Please vote #1 or #221:14
dabocreiht: sure, since 2.7 is current, but 2.6 was the first release to add that capability21:14
sorenDoes that mean that we effectively support these ancient distros?21:14
creihtno... we just support python 2.5, which goes a long way to help packaging people support ancient distros21:15
sorenThis may mean that we need to have all sorts of special magic in place to ensure our use of system tools.21:15
jc_smithOther than local dev tinkering, I would think greenfield deployments would be with the latests distros21:15
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* creiht sighs21:15
edaysoren: it would be interesting to see if the hypervisors would even work on the old distros for what openstack needs21:15
sorencreiht: That's the thing. Are we accepting this burden, too?21:15
creihtI would say no21:15
sorencreiht: I think that's important. Just supporting py2.5 seems like a half day of work, but if it actually means "support ancient linux distros", it's much more than that.21:16
jaypipescreiht: I understand your concern, I do.  But I believe we have agreement on this.21:16
DavieyO_o... So you can use openstack - but can't use libvirt for example.21:16
ttxat that point in the project history, I'd advise looking forward rather than back21:16
sorenOh, yeah. good one. nove requires libvirt >
jaypipescreiht: unless there is an option #3 you can think of?21:16
sorenand > 0.8.1 for the firewall stuff.21:16
jc_smithfor hypervisors, you usually want the latest greatest kvm/xen and not older distros anyways21:16
creihtthe main difference is, that it is a lot more difficult to get someone to upgrade python on an older distro, then it is other packages21:17
* creiht gives up21:17
MrKohonenSupport for libvirt in old hypervisors is an issue21:17
jaypipescreiht: don't give up, please.21:17
jaypipescreiht: the discussion is just that. trying to get all sides, and if you feel strongly, I want to talk it through.21:17
jaypipescreiht: what is the likelihood that someone will be deploying Nova on a distro that does not have 2.6?21:18
creihtI dunno21:18
jaypipescreiht: what is RS' internal systems?21:18
creihtbut I would say it is high, that they want to play with it on a system that does not have 2.621:18
xtoddxoption #3: distro survery on openstack.org?21:18
xtoddxand mailing list?21:18
Davieycreiht, hmm.. using virtualenv should help with that BTW.21:18
creihtjaypipes: for swift we use ubuntu and 2.621:18
jc_smithwould it make sense swift be 2.5 and nova 2.6? Since the dependencies are much different21:19
creihtDaviey: that is true, but I am talking from an ops perspective, who tend to not like virtualenv21:19
_0x44jaypipes: In ozone the app servers have python 2.5.221:19
_0x44chris@193134-app1:~$ python --version21:19
_0x44Python 2.5.221:19
pvoour version of python on xenserver 5.5 is 2.5.221:19
jaypipesxtoddx: yes, a possibility.  however, as creiht is pointing out, it may be best to ask the distros/sysadmins themselves?21:19
* creiht has fought many of these battles before21:19
jaypipescreiht: understood.21:19
Davieycreiht, agreed.21:19
creihtAs a dev, I would love to stay with 2.621:19
creihtit makes it a lot easier21:19
anotherjessecreiht: could py 2.5 support come in a point release?21:19
alekibangohow much work it might be to make #1 ?21:19
creihtbut I'm making this point purely from the ops perspective21:20
jaypipes_0x44: well, since ozone is built on Ruby I don't really give that much weight ;)21:20
creihtanotherjesse: sure21:20
creihtI'm not trying to say we have to have it first thing, just that it would be nice to have that as a goal21:20
_0x44jaypipes: ozone is built on Ruby, but going to start migrating onto openstack post austin21:20
alekibangowhen is another RHEL/CENTOS release? will it contain 2.6 ?21:20
sorenI'm not *opposed* to 2.5 working. If people want to put in the effort, that's great, but I'm against making it a release critical issue if there's something that doesn't play well with python 2.5.21:20
jaypipesalekibango: I'm not quite sure... I'd need mtaylor to set up a Tarmac target with 2.5 on it, at the very least, and then get fixing breakages.21:20
anotherjessecreiht: we spent a lot of time fighting python2.5 before we ran away due to issues with multi-processing / threading / signals21:20
creihtalekibango: next RHEL has been real soon now for like forever21:20
pvo_0x44: but the host OS  won't necessarily upgrade21:20
* alekibango agrees with soren21:20
alekibangoits a bug, but not release critical one21:21
sorenI will happily accept patches that make stuff work with python 2.5.21:21
jaypipes_0x44: right, all I was saying is that the version of Python on those hosts, up to this point, hasn't been a big disucssion point, I'm assuming :)21:21
creihtI don't want to make a big issue about it21:21
pvojaypipes: valid point. I don't knwo what xen 5.6.1 or 6.0 will include.21:21
pvoI haven't looked yet21:21
sorenConversely, I will not reject a patch if it doesn't work with python 2.5.21:22
creihtI didn't think it would turn into this big of a deal21:22
_0x44jaypipes: Good point, I'll shutup.21:22
jaypipesOK, so, here is a summary decision: "For Austin, we go with 2.6 as requirement.  At a later time, if the demand is there, we can do a release targeting back-deployment on 2.5".  If agreed, please put #agreed.21:22
jaypipescreiht: :)21:23
jaypipesalrighty then, let's move on.21:23
jaypipes#topic arch board nominations21:23
jaypipesnominate away...21:23
jaypipesalright, send nominations to jonathan.bryce@rackspace.com21:24
jaypipesmoving on...21:24
jaypipes#topic blueprint statuses21:24
sorenWait, what?21:24
soren"arch board"?21:24
jaypipessoren: Architecture Board21:24
sorenWhat the heck is that?21:24
jaypipessoren: rick sent an email about it..21:24
jaypipessoren: one sec, grabbing link.21:24
pvosoren: #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Governance21:25
jaypipesfrom rick:21:25
jaypipesWe are looking for nominations for the Architecture board.21:25
jaypipesTo nominate yourself or others send an email to jonathan@openstack.org21:25
jaypipesby September 30th.21:25
sorenOh, it got renamed?21:25
jaypipesguess so :)21:25
jaypipesok, so #topic blueprint statuses21:25
xtoddxare there already some people sitting on it, or is it totally new?21:25
jaypipesI'm going to run down austin blueprints and ask assignees for a brief update.21:25
jaypipesxtoddx: not sure, I think dendro-afk is the one to ask about the board.21:26
sorenxtoddx: It's being established now, as I understand it.21:26
edayxtoddx: I think they will be appointed at the end of Oct21:26
ttxxtoddx: "Chief Architect" has a seat21:26
creihtxtoddx: I think it is all new21:26
jaypipes#link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/austin21:26
jaypipesgoing from the top...21:26
jaypipessirp1: how goes it on image store?21:26
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sirp1so far so good… working on parallax so far, running in to some issues with some library dependencies (lockfile), but should have those cleared up21:27
sirp1rootkit has made good progress on teller21:27
jaypipessirp1: good to hear.  on my own blueprints, making progress, should be done tomorrow...21:27
sirp1and sounds like (jaypipes) are on the same page as we are for the nova integration piece21:28
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sirp1#done unless questions21:28
jaypipescool. xtoddx how's the openstack api blueprint going? any update?21:28
xtoddxmaybe _cerberus_ should update?21:28
pvohe stepped away for a second21:29
edayI can give some update there too. shared_ip_groups are probably not going to make it in due to back-end mismatches (see email to nova list)21:29
jaypipesno worries. gundlach and eday, want to update your stuff?21:29
edaycore functionality is going well21:29
jaypipeseday: k.  good to know.21:29
xtoddxthe servers_api branch is looking good, anyone interested should review it21:30
edaysome things like caching and delta change requests will not be done, but do not change features really21:30
jaypipesxtoddx: which blueprint(s) is the servers_api for?21:31
jaypipesxtoddx: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/austin21:31
jaypipesxtoddx: is that the openstack-api one?21:31
edayjaypipes: it's the openstack-api, but there are bugs files for each task within it21:31
eday(yes, this is not correct, but how it was done)21:31
jaypipeseday: gotcha. ok.21:31
jaypipesvishy: the AnsoLabs-assigned blueprints....where do we sit?21:32
jaypipesanotherjesse: ^^21:32
jaypipeseday, pvo: is Chris B done with the scheduler stuff?21:32
anotherjesseguest-agent is mostly with xen21:32
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jaypipesanotherjesse: should I ask ewan for a status on that one then?21:33
pvojaypipes: I think the simple scheduler is done21:33
edayjaypipes: the start or a scheduler is in there, but I don't think Chris is taskedwith it anymore21:33
_cerberus_re: the openstack api - things are coming along, but there are a host of tasks yet to be done. http://etherpad.openstack.org/fm0PKBhE3D for reference sake21:33
anotherjessejaypipes: guest agent is only implemented in the xenapi driver for compute21:33
jaypipespvo, eday: ok, cool.  if one of you could update that blueprint, myuch appreciated21:33
edayjaypipes: not sure who owns it now :)21:34
anotherjessejoshua mckenty did a pass - he is working on further testing  -- he started with the python library but moved back to using CLI tools and shelling out since there were issue with compatability and building the library without being a major PITA21:34
jaypipeseday: then it should be unassigned from Chris, no? :)21:34
jaypipesanotherjesse: ok, good to hear.  could I ask you or Josh to update those blueprints when you get a chance?  2 days till freeze...21:34
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anotherjesserescue is mostly done (and will be proposed for merge once the openstack API is added)21:35
anotherjessevishy is working on that21:35
anotherjessethe web-based-serial-console is done module testing in xen and adding the openstack api21:35
jaypipes#action anotherjesse, josh: update blueprint statuses...21:35
anotherjesseresize, migration, snapshotting are designed but might not make it ...21:36
jaypipes#action jaypipes: track down ewan for status on xen blueprints.21:36
jaypipesanotherjesse: no worries.  the sooner we can get a definitive status, the better, so we can move them out to Bexar, ok?21:36
anotherjessewhen working on scheduler blueprint (which shows started but it is actually already merged) we added the required functionality to implement resize, migration21:37
anotherjessebut it will depend on how much time the nebula release (which happens this monday) takes21:37
jaypipesanotherjesse: so is the resize blueprint actually implemented then?21:37
anotherjessesince we have to release first21:37
anotherjessejaypipes: resize has been designed and support added to scheduler - but not actually implemented21:38
anotherjessemostly missing copying the image from the old machine to the new one21:38
jaypipesanotherjesse: ok, understood.21:38
jaypipesanotherjesse: pls do update the blueprint statuses as accurately as possible.  dendro-afk and I will move the blueprints that can't be completed out to Bexar, where those blueprints will serve as starting points for discussions at the next summit.21:38
anotherjessewe updated delievery already21:39
anotherjessebut will update with more info21:39
jaypipesanotherjesse: awesome, thx much :)21:39
jaypipesalrighty, any more updates before we discuss the next topic?21:39
sorenIf anyone cares, the austin-ec2-security-groups spec is going pretty well. I pushed a fresh version of the branch this morning which seems in good shape. vishy and anotherjesse pointed out a problem yesterday, though, that I haven't addresssed yet (no filtering between vm's in the same security group), but that shoulnd't be too big of a deal.21:40
sorenIt can get merged now, if reviewed, and then I fix that problem up afterwards.21:40
jaypipessoren: so is that a long way of asking for a code review? ;)21:40
sorenIt's a pretty big patch. I'd love to get it merged sooner rather than later.21:40
sorenjaypipes: I think it is, yes :)21:40
anotherjessewe can review - sicne we have it in our deploy branch already21:40
jaypipes#action ALL: please review soren's ec2 security groups merge proposal21:41
jaypipes#link https://code.launchpad.net/nova/+activereviews21:41
anotherjessewe've already been pushing our patches to soren for the sec group stuff21:41
anotherjesseI have heard that the hyper-v work is going well21:41
jaypipesanotherjesse: cool.  let's get that reviewed and merged then... :)21:41
vishysoren: i'm good with it, just as long as we are careful to let people know that they need bleeding-edge libvirt to make it work21:41
anotherjessebut I don't have an update other than that21:42
gundlachsorry, was late and then catching up with logs.  api is "coming along" -- i've got 2 tasks left on my plate which i am pretty sure will be done by tomorrow evening21:42
edayjaypipes, all: and in general, we have a lot of other outstanding merge reqs we need to get in before thursday (or deny)21:42
jaypipeseday: indeed.21:42
anotherjessealso xtoddx got austin-rename-servers merged21:42
anotherjesseso we will update it as well21:42
sorenvishy: True.21:42
jaypipes#action ALL: Many merge proposals need a second reviewer...let's get things merged! https://code.launchpad.net/nova/+activereviews21:43
gundlacheday, _cerberus_: if shared ip groups isn't going into Austin, is there anything eday can do to help you, _cerberus_?21:43
edaygundlach: I'm still stubbing out as much as I can, but yeah, we I can focus on other core bits.21:44
xtoddxactually, austin_rename_servers just got updated to latest trunk and is ready to merge https://code.launchpad.net/~anso/nova/rename/+merge/3638221:44
edaygundlach: also, I'm traveling tomorrow to speak about openstack on thursday in baltimore, so my time is limited this week21:44
jaypipesxtoddx: cool.21:44
jaypipesan update from /me..  I pushed off completing the nosql datastore driver until Bexar.  It because way too big of a PITA and I wanted to help with Glance's stuff...21:45
jaypipesalright, I don't see any of the summit organizers on the channel, so we'll skip the next topic (summit). Anyone want to discuss anything else? 10 .. 9 .. 8 ..21:46
gundlacheday: if you have a chance, it looks like the GlanceImageService is a remaining task (once Glance is ready to be coded against)21:46
jaypipesgundlach: that's what I am working on. :)21:46
_cerberus_gundlach: anything from the etherpad would be great21:46
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gundlachjaypipes: sorry, i should have read the logs more carefully :)21:47
jaypipesgundlach: no worries!21:47
anotherjessejaypipes: perhaps the swift guys can give advice on eventlet and connection pooling?21:47
daboThe Call for Proposals for the 2011 US PyCon is open now until 2010-11-01. I think we should have some OpenStack representation21:47
gundlachjaypipes: i'll update the etherpad ghetto-bug-tracker we're using21:47
creihtanotherjesse: what problem are you guys running into?21:47
jaypipesgundlach: cool21:47
_cerberus_gundlach: after I merge in my current iteration of the servers_api branch, anyone is free to pick off the remaining tasks.21:47
edayanotherjesse: we just need to replace singletons with a pool really21:48
jaypipesok dokey, going to end the meeting...21:49
xtoddxeday: are there managers other than authmanager?21:49
xtoddxor, singletons, rather21:49
sorenIn the rpc code.21:49
sorenrpc.Connection or something.21:49
jaypipesxtoddx: rpc.Connection21:50
jaypipessoren: damn, jinx.21:50
anotherjessemove to #openstack?21:50
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep 28 21:50:38 2010 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:50
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-09-28-21.03.html21:50
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-09-28-21.03.txt21:50
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-09-28-21.03.log.html21:50
jaypipesthx all.21:50
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edayxtoddx: I "fixed" the rpc consumer singleton in the api, but it's a new instance each time now, not a pool21:51
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edayxtoddx: but that also had to do with replacing the busy-poll with a wait call, not just eventlet21:51
xtoddxeday: that should be fine though, right?  not much overhead in creating it is there?21:51
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xtoddxeady: at least that is the case for authmanager21:52
sorenxtoddx: Your question suggests you've run into some of the problems I saw today.21:52
sorenLet's take it in #openstack.21:52
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