Tuesday, 2010-10-05

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zulhey is there a meeting today?18:22
alekibango_imho meeting agenda link should be in topic here...18:46
alekibango_http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings -- but that info is obsolete, right?18:50
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sorenalekibango: Yeah, that's from last week.20:51
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sorenzul: dude.20:54
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openstackMeeting started Tue Oct  5 21:00:15 2010 UTC.  The chair is soren. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:00
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.21:00
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sorenRick had to deal with a family emergency, so I'm filling in.21:00
sorenhttp://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings should have the agenda for today.21:00
soren...but doesn't.21:00
sorenIt's the one from last week, so we'll have to play it by ear.21:00
sorenI'd like to talk about Feature Freeze a little bit.21:01
sorenWho else has stuff for the agenda?21:01
chmouelor i guess it's part of feature freeze?21:01
sorenIf you don't feel it gets covered under feature freeze, we'll take i separately.21:02
sorenAnyone else?21:02
ewanmellorGlance -- status, where it's going to be for Austin.21:02
sorenOh, and blueprint status.21:02
sorenOk, so:21:02
soren * Feature Freeze21:02
soren * TEsting21:02
soren * Glance status21:02
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soren * Blueprint status21:02
sorenSound good?21:02
alekibangoi would like to stress that there is a need for nova usage/admin  documentation --  few pages of docs could bring much more users (testers) in. That is  very important now, so we can get more response from people in time, before the release.21:02
chmouelsoren: all good to me21:03
sorenalekibango: I'll add that after Testing.21:03
sorenAlright then.21:03
soren#topic Feature Freeze21:03
sorenOk, so feature freeze kicked in slightly delayed on Friday.21:03
sorenI blame French crappy internet.21:04
chmouelsoren: ah ah (i'm french btw)21:04
sorenI put up some guidelines here: http://wiki.openstack.org/FeatureFreeze21:04
sorenOne thing that is not clear yet is how to deal with exceptions to the feature freze.21:04
sorenfreeze, even.21:04
sorenSo, for instance: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/65515221:05
ewanmellorDid you have any particular exception in mind?  ;-)21:05
sorenNot really, just an example. Really. :)21:05
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sorenThe idea of providing rationale and regression potential is well-tested and sound.21:06
alekibangoanother example: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/65484321:06
sorenHowever, the approval process for stuff like this is undefined.21:06
sorenIn Ubuntu, we have a release team. They evaluate these things and approve or decline them.21:06
sorena) We don't have a release team (yet?).21:06
sorenb) We may not need it for this.21:06
sorenWhat to do?21:07
alekibangoabout releases - some people (me included) would like to see releases daily, weekly, monthly.21:07
xtoddxthis just just a "technology preview", right?  so i don't think we need to be too strict21:07
sorenMaybe branches that "fix" bugs like that need extra approval? Like 3  up-votes and no down-votes?21:07
ewanmellorHave we formally chosen a version number for the Austin release?21:07
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chmouelpeople fetching apt daily ppa package should be release early enough ?21:08
sorenOur fearless leader has said: Not 1.0.21:08
xtoddxi'm okay with a consensus strategy for approving changes after freeze21:08
sorenOther than that, it's up in the air.21:08
ewanmellorsoren: OK, that counts as choosing a version number!  Anything that's not 1.0 is fine.21:08
sorenIt also has to be > 0.9.0, since we already sort of released that.21:08
soren(We made a tarball)21:09
creihtswift will likely be 1.121:09
alekibangosoren: btw who has right to approve ?   imho i didnt see that button in lp21:09
sorenalekibango: Members of ~nova-core.21:09
creihtor something like that21:09
sorenalekibango: And ~swift-core, obviously, for swift.21:09
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soren(It's defined by the default reviewer for the target branch)21:10
ewanmellorI'm happy with you merging the xen branch. We can be more strict about what Feature Freeze means when we reach 1.0.21:10
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alekibangoewanmellor: +121:10
sorenI think it's important, even though (or perhaps especially since) this is our first public release, that we focus on QA for the rest of the cycle and not new features.21:10
alekibangoeven docs, not only qa21:11
chmouelsoren: +121:11
ewanmellorsoren: Agreed.  We bolt the door immediately after your horse has bolted.21:11
sorenalekibango: Certainly, that too.21:11
sorenewanmellor: Well, that horse and one more :)21:11
soren(EC2 security groups)21:11
alekibangobut i would say your rule (3 up and no down votes) looks nice for me21:12
sorenOk, so how about this:21:12
ewanmellorThat one is less clear to me -- I can't even begin to understand the networking code at the moment.  Is it really ready for security groups to go in?21:12
ewanmellorIt certainly won't work on XenAPI.21:12
sorenBugs that require a feature freeze exception should say either "Feature Freeze Exception" or "FFe" in the subject. That way, they're easy to spot on the merge proposal page.21:12
soren...and to approve one, there must be 3 +1's.21:12
sorenand no -1's.21:12
sorenSound good?21:12
sorenLazy consensus kicks in in 521:14
soren#agreed Bugs that require a feature freeze exception should say either "Feature Freeze Exception" or "FFe" in the subject (to be easier to spot). To approve one, it must have 3 +1's and no -1's.21:14
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sorenAlright, testing.21:14
* alekibango goes to edit bug title :)21:14
sorenWho added that?21:14
chmoueli did21:14
sorenchmouel: That was you.21:14
chmouelyes so aside of the unit testing what kind of real world testing stuff we have ?21:15
ewanmellor#topic Testing21:15
soren#topic Testing21:15
sorenewanmellor: Thanks, I usually have people for this :)21:15
chmoueli would not mind working on it i have plenty of resources for that in rs uk21:15
ewanmellorCitrix is ramping up testing, but it won't be very useful for Austin.21:16
sorenPerhaps someone at Rackspace can speak up?21:16
alekibangosoren: maybe we could use FFE as a TAG21:16
creihtsoren: you work at rackspace :)21:16
sorenewanmellor: Ok. Won't be ready or are you testing different things?21:16
sorencreiht: Indeed )21:16
sorenOk, maybe someone *physically* at Rackspace can speak up?21:17
sorenI don't command much hardware for testing.21:17
chmouelsoren: i can have resources for hw from rs (EMEA at least)21:17
sorenOnce I feel the packages are in good shape, I'll try throwing them on a bunch of cloud servers and use UML for testing.21:17
alekibangosoren: what about FFe as a TAG? would that be good ?21:18
sorenI don't know how different the NASA Nebula code is, but I'm hoping they'll converge very, very shortly, so that should give us some real-worl testing, too.21:18
sorenalekibango: Nah.21:18
sorenalekibango: I want it to be easy to spot from the merge proposal page (which just shows the bug title).21:18
ewanmellorsoren: There won't be much ready.  We'll be testing end-to-end properly with a new team by the end of the year.  For now it will be seat-of-the-pants.21:18
sorenewanmellor: Alright.21:19
mtaylorsoren: _almost_ done with the hudson module to spin up cloud servers for us (the drizzle beta sapped some of my strength)21:19
sorenewanmellor: No worries, I was just curious.21:19
sorenmtaylor: Awesome.21:19
mtaylorhopefully should help support bigger testing21:19
ewanmellorsoren: This will be a great topic for the summit of course.  Jay was also interested.21:19
sorenchmouel: Anything else you want to cover?21:19
sorenewanmellor: Indeed.21:20
sorenWhere is Jay, by the way?21:20
chmouelsoren: that's cool i probably going to get myself some testing over here and will cover the results somwehre on the wiki21:20
sorenchmouel: And file bugs! Lots of them! :)21:20
alekibangoi cant find how to change title  of my bug... in LP :)21:20
ewanmellorsoren: Jay's probably trawling down our merge requests one by one writing "Unit test please!" on the end of each one.21:21
sorenalekibango: Right next to the title, there's a pencil sort of thing.21:21
sorenAlright, next topic.21:21
soren#topic Documentation21:21
chmouelit would be nice to have a wiki page always updated like the swift 'all in one' for nova21:22
alekibangochmouel: do you know how you can administer nova installation?21:22
alekibangoor how your users will do?21:22
* soren pokes alekibango 21:22
chmouelalekibango: no not yet21:23
alekibangowe have no such documentation for nova21:23
sorenAh, whoops :)21:23
alekibangowe cant expect annegentle to write it21:23
alekibangoi cant write it well -- and i am here for a month21:23
chmoueli would not mind writing it21:23
chmouelas long i get things working which i hope soon21:23
alekibangoi too, but i feel *very* uncertain21:23
alekibangoso, i would like to ask for some examples - how to install nova on 4 servers?21:24
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chmouellike deployement wise?21:24
alekibangohow to administer it? add hardware? add cluster?21:24
alekibangohow to add web console for endusers?21:24
sorenOne problem with docs is that we've spent so much time on core features, we're only just now starting to get deployment sorted out.21:24
alekibangohow will endusers use the nova?21:24
xtoddxshould we make bugs for documentation?21:24
creihtas an fyi, there is a push for documentation for an end user that might help with this21:25
sorenI expect the deployment side of things to change quite a bit over the next couple of weeks.21:25
chmouelyeah it's kind of hard to have any deployment at this time21:25
creihtI'm supposed to meet with bpiatt this evening about it21:25
alekibangosoren: even few lines would be very nice to have....21:25
chmoueldeployement guide even21:25
soren...since right now, there's lots of stuff that needs to be done manually and whatnot. I hope that changes now that things are settling.21:25
alekibangodeployment guide21:25
alekibangothats the word21:25
alekibangome+chmouel - but we need help21:26
xtoddxalekibango: ping me for help21:26
chmouelyeah for sure21:26
sorenI'm happy to help any way I can.21:26
creihtsoren: I would ping jim curry, and brett21:26
creihtalso on this21:26
chmoueli'll ping soren since he's more on my timezone :)21:26
alekibango:)  i have 4 servers now - and i am not sure how to install nova on it - and what will i do when i will have another 421:26
creihtsince there is a big need for docs for an end user21:26
alekibangoi can provide few servers for testing for few weeks if thats needed21:27
sorencreiht: _Would_ you or _will_ you? :)21:27
creihtwell I will be for swift :)21:27
creihtnot sure if they are talking to someone on the nova side yet21:27
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alekibangochmouel: i am in EU too21:27
creihtjust saying that it would be a good idea for someone over there to ping them to coordinate21:27
xtoddxi'll work on docs from the nova side, if needed21:28
creihtI'll ping them about it as well when I talk to them21:28
chmoueli think there is two type of documentation needed one for end-user/deployment stuff and one for devs to get kick started21:28
alekibangoxtoddx: yes, its very needed - maybe if you can start with structure21:28
creihtthe part I am talking about is mainly for deployment21:28
alekibangowe wil try to add content as we will learn it21:29
sorencreiht: Great.21:29
alekibangoimho good docs are essential for adoption -- and release is near21:29
sorenI think deployment is our number 1 focues. Without deployments, we won't have end users anyway.21:29
creihtsoren: but it wouldn't hurt for someone on your side to ping them as well :)21:29
xtoddxsure, once we settle down from our release later this week i'll start looking very seriously at sphinx docs21:29
sorenxtoddx: Excellent.21:29
sorenAnyone else want to say stuff on the subject of Documentation?21:30
alekibangoxtoddx: sphinx docs -- there are some. but there is no deployment docs21:30
michaeldreamhostan organizational chart might be useful as well. for developers that are looking to get involved21:30
alekibangosoren: i might take that deployment docs as my goal for next week21:30
sorenmichaeldreamhost: Yeah. There is some, but I fear it's somewhat out-dated.21:30
sorenalekibango: Sounds excellent.21:31
sorenAlright, moving on.21:31
creihtsoren: we probably should add a task for anne to coordinate the docs so that we don't duplicate effort21:31
soren#topic Glance status21:31
sirp1#info Glance (both teller and parallax) are functional; tested their21:31
sirp1interaction using curl.21:31
sirp1#info jaypipes is working on grafting GlanceImageService into Nova. He has merged in work21:31
sirp1that exposes Parallax through the API.21:31
sirp1#info Still remaining is adding in the _fetch_teller_image adapter and changing21:31
sirp1use_s3 to something like FLAGS.image_service [ 'local', 's3', 'teller' ]. I21:31
sirp1have an experiemental branch which does this.21:31
jc_smithI know there are a lot of pieces in flight with the code in nova, but I'd love to see a reference architecture diagram that shows how a small production deployment would look, with different services logically split apart across different servers, its one thing to get the dev env working, but I find it challenging to take it to the next step21:31
sorencreiht: That's a good point.21:31
sorencreiht: Do you have her e-mail handy?21:31
creihtsoren: just sec21:32
ewanmellorSo is it planned for Glance to be fully working with Nova for austin?21:32
creihtsoren: anne@openstack.org21:32
alekibangojc_smith: yes. thats what i am talking about :)21:33
sirp1ewanmellor:  good question, i don't think we have much to do to have it working end to end, so i'd personally like to get it in21:33
soren#info Anyone working on documentation, shoot anne@openstack.org an e-mail letting her know. She's our technical writer, so she'll be the best to keep track of everyone's efforts so we avoid duplication.21:33
sirp1im curious what jaypipes opinion on this is21:33
sorenAlas, he is absent.21:33
ewanmellorSo does GlanceImageService not count as a "feature"?  It looks like one to me.21:34
sorenIt certainly does to me.21:34
creihtjc_smith: fyi on the swift side, we are working on setting up a reference implementation, but it may still be a bit down the road before we can get that all set up21:34
ewanmellorI don't want to block it, so if it's ready to go in, then that's for nova-core to decide.  However, bear in mind that the later it lands, the less chance there is of it working with XenAPI in time.21:35
jc_smithhaving setup both a swift cluster and nova one, I can say swift had way more documentation, all the conf properties were explained, detailed info on the rings, etc. Not so much on nova21:35
sorenI'd also be hesitant to merge it at this point, to be honest.21:35
gundlachGlanceImageService is required for the OpenStack API's /images endpoint to work21:36
sorenjc_smith, creiht: We've moved on. Can you guys take this to #openstack, perhaps?21:36
gundlach(unless we want to store images on the API servers themselves)21:36
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gundlachjpipes!  hi.21:36
sirp1understood, i'd say if we did merge it, it should be clear that it is experimental and you flip the flags to glance at your own risk21:36
sorenjpipes: Greeting!21:36
jpipesgundlach: heh, sorry :) had to take a neighbour's kid to doctor...21:36
ewanmellorWhy, what did you do to him?21:37
jpipesewanmellor: :)21:37
sorenjpipes: Opinions on Glance for Austin?21:37
alekibangoimho - glance is such important goal that we might rather move the release date a bit than miss that one21:37
jpipessoren: I believe we should target Glance for post-Austin.21:37
sorenjpipes: Ok.21:37
alekibangothat looks like one down vote21:37
jpipessoren: the skeleton is in there now...but there's still ways to go before it's usable..21:38
sorenI have to say that's my inclination, too, but I may be slightly biased.21:38
jpipessirp1, _0x44 and myself have made some good progress, but not enough to say "Glance is in Austin"21:38
soren(If anyone cares: Glance is too late for Ubuntu 10.10, and I'd like at least the set of components and thus basic architecture of the packages in Ubuntu to match what we have in Austin (now that we couldn't actually get the final release in there)21:39
alekibangowhy is release planned every 6 months? why not every week?21:39
soren..but I don't want that to be /the/ deciding factor.21:39
jpipesalekibango: packaging.21:40
sorenalekibango: Sanity.21:40
alekibangoagile methodologies done right are able to deliver :)21:40
sorenWe have daily built packages. That's enough release-early-release-often for me.21:40
jpipesalekibango: you are talking about the trunk series, not a release...21:41
alekibangosoren: i understand that sanity bit.... :)21:41
sorenA proper release every three months seems good to me. So far, at least.21:41
jpipesalekibango: a release is a packaged, stable set of components.21:41
alekibangojpipes: yes, but big release monthly or bimonthly   could be nice :)21:41
jpipesalekibango: yup, agreed.21:41
jpipesalekibango: I think we'll get there eventually...21:41
sorenWe're drifting..21:41
jpipesindeed. sorry.21:41
sorenAre we done with Glance status?21:41
soren#topic Blueprints21:42
soren#topic Blueprint status, even.21:42
sorenI'm an idiot. In the midst of the whole ORM refactor ordeal, I forgot to file a merge proposal for my Xen branch.21:42
sorenI've kept claiming it was done, but I lied.21:42
jpipes++ on being an idiot.21:42
sorenSo, at least austin-xen is not done, but there's an FFE filed for it.21:43
sorenI'll be filing an FFe for security groups, too. It's been reviewed some and it's in production (I believe) at NASA, so it should be reasonably solid.21:44
* soren double checks that he hasn't got more outstanding stuff.21:44
alekibangosoren: btw i cant edit my bug title  -> maybe because its triaged now21:44
sorenalekibango: Which one?21:44
* jpipes is focusing on bugs until release. will be pinging various parties about statuses and trying to get the undecided/new bug count down.21:44
creihtthe stats blueprint for swift hasn't been approved yet, as we are still reviewing it21:44
creihtbut will be done for austin21:45
sorenThe bluprint isn't even done, and you still expect it to land?21:45
jpipesalekibango: sure you can.  little yellow edit button next to the title of the bug21:45
ewanmellorSo, all these blueprints with austin- in the name that aren't merged.  What's happening with those?21:45
sorenewanmellor: Retarget for austin+1.21:45
ewanmellorNamed bezar, right?21:45
creihtsoren: it is done, we are still reviewing (it is a large chunk of code and things have been busy over here)21:46
jpipesewanmellor: some retargeted, some need a status update from Anso guys.21:46
alekibangojpipes: wanna see screenshot? its not there...21:46
creihtit is based on production code, so I'm not too worried about it21:46
sorencreiht: Ok, so the blueprints should be approved, but not the merge proposal, right?21:46
jpipesalekibango: :( ok, I can edit for you I guess!21:46
creihtsoren: correct21:46
sorenalekibango: In #openstack, please.21:46
jpipesalekibango: private message me21:46
alekibangoYou are not the bug assignee nor the maintainer of OpenStack Compute (nova), and therefore cannot edit this bug's status21:46
sorencreiht: Phew :)21:46
alekibangook sorry soren21:46
ewanmellorSo who's responsible for renaming austin-foo to bexar-foo?  The blueprint owner, or the release manager?21:46
jpipesewanmellor: dendrobates21:46
sorenewanmellor: Rick.21:46
creihtyeah that is the only way he gets karma ;)21:47
jpipesewanmellor: I don't think anyone else has the permissions to do it for Nova blueprints..21:47
sorenjpipes: I do, but I don't want to :)21:47
* jpipes doesn't21:47
sorenjpipes: I think it's just Rick and myself right now.21:47
sorenBut Rick said he'd do it, so there.21:47
vishycatching up on scrollback: security groups work, we've had to patch a few things which i will get to you soon soren, and we are having an issue with libvirt hanging which may be related to them21:48
sorenDoes anyone else have anything interesting to say/ask about blueprints?21:48
ewanmellorSo are we expecting that all these are definitely not in austin:21:48
vishyscheduler is in21:48
sorenvishy: Great, wanted to talk to you about this in #openstack earlier. Let's do that in a minute.21:48
sorenewanmellor: scheduler is in.21:48
vishysoren: ok21:48
ewanmellorIt's marked "Review" and "Started"21:49
sorenewanmellor: Has been for... a while. At least a week.21:49
sorenAncient history.21:49
sorenSuperseded by ec2-security-groups.21:49
sorenaustin-microsoft-hyper-v-support: no news.21:49
sorenSo not going to land for sure.21:50
jpipesewanmellor: yes, I brought that scheduler one up last week's meeting...unfortunately I cannot edit the status on it (dendrobates!)21:50
sorenjpipes: I'll do it.21:50
jpipessoren: thx21:50
ewanmellorAnd what about boot-whole-images?  That got wrapped up with Glance.21:50
sorenHow are they related?21:50
alekibangoyes yes i love whole images21:50
ewanmellorJustin's raw-disk-images branch is linked from the austin-image-stores blueprint.21:51
jpipesewanmellor: will have to ask sirp.  I do not know the status of that (but I would say pretty certainly it will NOT be in Austin)21:51
ewanmellorI never understood why, precisely.21:51
sorenSounds like a mistake?21:51
jpipessoren: perhaps, I really don't know.21:51
ewanmellorI'm a big fan of whole-disk-images.  It suits our usecases much better.21:52
vishyraw-disk-images should be a simple addition, just no one actually merged justins patch, and now it is heavily bitrotted21:52
sorenSounds like a target for Bexar.21:53
* soren senses we're about done.21:53
sorenAnyone else got anything for Blueprint status?21:54
sorenGoing once.21:54
sorenGoing twice.21:54
soren#topic Any other business21:54
ewanmellorWhat's the austin release date?21:54
sorenGoing once.21:54
sorenAnyone else?21:55
ewanmellorHow much time do we need for packaging before then?21:55
ewanmellorSo, when's the last bugfix go in?21:55
alekibangofinal freeze is in a week21:56
sorenewanmellor: Ideally, Oct 14th.21:56
* jpipes thinks dendrobates or soren should send an email to ML answering ewanmellor's ?s21:56
sorenewanmellor: In reality, probably Oct 20th.21:56
sorenjpipes: Will do tomorrow.21:56
sorenErk, I need to run for a minute.21:56
jpipessoren: cool, thx21:56
jpipesalright, end meeting?21:57
ewanmellorI'm done.21:57
chmoueldone for me21:57
jpipessoren: think we're done21:57
sorenThanks everyone!21:58
openstackMeeting ended Tue Oct  5 21:58:01 2010 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:58
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-10-05-21.00.html21:58
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-10-05-21.00.txt21:58
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-10-05-21.00.log.html21:58
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dendrobatesI arrived just to see it end21:58
vishysoren: discuss sec groups in openstack?21:58
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jpipesdendrobates: heh21:58
alekibangodendrobates: soren took your place and did it well today :)21:59
alekibangodendrobates: glance will not land in austin :(21:59
dendrobatesI have the utmost faith in soren, mostly21:59
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