Tuesday, 2010-11-16

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masanoriGood morning, Rick. I hope you guys are enjoying Japan.20:19
dendrobatesmasanori: I wish I was.  I did not make the journey.  I hope to go next time.20:35
masanoriOops.. Maybe I'm still suffering from jet-lug..20:39
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ttxMeeting starting in 5 minutes20:55
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ttxWelcome to the Openstack release meeting... who is here ?21:00
anotherjesseseveral folks from anso21:00
edayreporting for duty21:00
* ianweller lurks21:01
KnightHackerHi :)21:01
* creiht bows21:01
ttxgreat ! Looks like we can get started.21:01
* sandywalsh cowers21:01
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openstackMeeting started Tue Nov 16 21:01:24 2010 UTC.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:01
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.21:01
* dabo waves21:01
ttxMeeting agenda is available at http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings21:01
ttx#topic Current release stage: Submit specs for approval21:02
ttx#info So the most pressing thing right now is to get all your blueprints/specs ready for approval21:02
ttxIf you are still lost in the process, I started the promised BlueprintsLifecycle page21:02
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/BlueprintsLifecycle21:02
xtoddxttx, will you or dendrobates leave notes on the blueprints for what is keeping it from approval?21:03
xtoddxalso, who can approve?21:03
ttxxtoddx: dendrobates should approve21:03
dendrobatesyes we will leave notes and send emails21:03
ttxSpecsSubmissionDeadline is Thursday, Nov 16, 23:59 UTC21:04
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ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/SpecsSubmissionDeadline21:04
ttxThat brings us to the release status topic...21:04
ttxUnless there are questions on the specs submission process ?21:05
ttx(if you have any, feel free to ask me or dendrobates)21:05
vishyquick question21:05
ttxI /knew/ I should have counted faster.21:05
ttxvishy: yes ?21:06
vishyif we come up with an important feature in the middle o21:06
vishyfor example 1 month from now21:06
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vishyis there any way to add a blueprint/spec into Bexar later?21:06
anotherjessefor the things we don't know that we don't know21:06
ttxvishy: yes, there is an exception process... but that sounds like a bad idea21:06
ttxSee "Exception procedure" in http://wiki.openstack.org/SpecsSubmissionDeadline21:07
ttxAll the freezes have an exception process. I'm in the process of documenting them all.21:07
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dendrobatesanotherjesse: is there something specific you are thinking abour?21:07
dendrobatesan example perhaps?21:07
vishyI have an example21:08
anotherjessedendrobates: not yet, but if we fix a bug or add a feature needed by a client (such as windows support) but we didn't think it was going to be high priority, it would suck to have it bit rot for months until the next release21:08
vishyso we have an (old) blueprint for whole-image booting21:08
vishywe assume that that will allow us to boot windows images21:08
vishybut no one has actually tested it21:08
dendrobatesbug fixing does not require any kind of spec21:08
vishyso if 1 month down the line we realize that we actually need feature X to make windows usable21:09
* creiht quickly changes his blue prints to bugs21:09
dendrobatesvishy: we will deal with it then.  We have to expect things to come up.21:09
vishythat is just the easiest example i can think of21:09
gundlachcreiht: it's no use, my bugs all got changed to blueprints when i wasn't looking!21:09
dendrobatesHopefully that will not happen too often21:09
vishyI just want to make sure that we all realize we're not in a magical universe where we can forsee 2 months into the future and know everything that we will need21:10
ttxvishy:  that's the case of a bugfix needing to introduce new behavior21:10
ttxvishy: which is kind of grey area that you can catch with the exception procedures21:10
vishyttx: so small features can be filed in bugfixes?21:10
anotherjessedendrobates: probably a larger item is that we are going to be building tools to help run the system (like a sys-ops ui, api, ...) - we don't know all the features of the API yet since we are adding them as they become something our ops people need21:10
ttxvishy: I would say they still require getting an exception granted21:11
vishyttx: ok21:11
creihtThis all seems very heavy weight to me21:11
ttxsince they modify nehavior, even if for the greater good21:11
ttxbehavior, even21:11
ttxcreiht: we can discuss this off-meeting21:12
ttxother questions ?21:12
anotherjessewe are going to make generic blueprints21:12
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anotherjessefor things like sys-ops panel21:12
anotherjessesince we don't know the feature set yet21:12
xtoddxanotherjesse: sounds good, but then can we make dependencies (blueprints) w/o invoking the exception process?21:13
xtoddxare blueprints that are dependencies of accepted specs exempt from exceptions, assuming they exist for no reason other than to break up work from the larger, accepted blueprint?21:13
anotherjessewe use an agile process - where every 3 weeks is a new sprint ... so our feature set is always based on the results of the last sprint and requirements from clients21:13
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* creiht hears the water falling21:14
ttxanotherjesse: hrm21:14
dabocreiht: lol21:14
anotherjessewe can make guesses, but just because we write a blueprint doesn't mean we will be doing it ;)21:15
edayanotherjesse: ahh, so in theory all the blueprints you guys are going to work on in the next couple months should have been discussed last week :)21:15
anotherjesseeday - yes that is the theory - :)21:15
ttxanotherjesse: your agile process seems a bit orthogonal with the 3-month time based release process21:15
dendrobatesoh, definitely. many approved bps are not implemented21:15
vishyIf this is the development style that openstack is adopting, we'll just have to hornswaggle our sprints into bps and specs as best we can.21:16
creihtthe 3-month release process seems a bit orthoginal to how both projects were developed in the first place :)21:16
ttxI wish we would have had that discussion last week :)21:16
anotherjesseanyway - we can continue21:16
dendrobatescreiht: we are releasing software in a completely different way than before21:17
dendrobatesthe process needs to be a little different21:17
dendrobatesthe tight feedback loop agile has with the stakeholder is different21:17
gundlachworst case, anso labs will just be 3 months ahead of OS, and they will contribute back their changes in a big merge after each release.21:17
edaywell, one thing to keep in mind, both projects were developed by smaller teams.. getting larger and being in the open tends to require a bit more structure since many loosely connected folks are involved, hence the 3 month thing. the tough part is finding a balance :)21:18
gundlachs/release/OS release/21:18
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xtoddxgundlach: which isn't working out very well right now, have you seen our deploy branch?21:18
ttxeday: I wouldn't have stated it any clearer :)21:18
vishygundlach: I see 7000 line patch number two in our future :p21:18
gundlachxtoddx: that's why i called it the 'worst' case :)21:18
ttxok, moving on21:18
ttx#topic Release status21:18
ttxSo at this point, I can only complain about the slow progress in getting specs submitted for approval...21:19
ttx#info Looking at the design summit blueprints, we have 15% of them ready, 10% obviously in progress and 75% not updated yet21:19
ttx... and two days left.21:19
ttxSo expect some nagging from me tomorrow.21:20
xtoddxso we just need to set them to "pending approval"?21:20
* creiht sighs21:20
ttxSee "Before SpecsSubmissionDeadline" in http://wiki.openstack.org/BlueprintsLifecycle21:20
vishymost of mine I wrote the specs out prior to summint.  I'll go through and update them tonight21:20
* gundlach wonders if we need to spend more time on the release process topic since there seems to be some unrest still? though i don't mean to drag out the meeting...21:21
ttxxtoddx: in essence, yes (you should also set an assignee and a series goal)21:21
xtoddxttx: ok21:21
vishygundlach: I don't think we're going to get any resolution here, we may have to take it to the mailing list21:21
ttxmoving on in 5 seconds21:21
anotherjesseI guess I don't see how blueprints will work when people join at random times - do we force new people to hold off development on their idea until the next release?21:22
gundlachvishy: sounds good, as long as we don't just drop the issue :)21:22
ttxanotherjesse: they are free to develop in branches21:22
ttxanotherjesse: the process is for merging into trunk and getting into the release21:22
anotherjesseand if they develop in a branch and it works, and we aren't in feature freeze, why not accept it then?21:22
edayanotherjesse: or help with bug fixes or helping with existing blueprints21:22
anotherjesseif the tests, docs, code works21:22
xtoddxi hope that would be a reasonable example of how to use the "exception" process21:23
creihteday: open source is all about scratching your own itch, not scratching others21:23
dendrobatesanotherjesse: I think we might accept it with an exception21:23
xtoddxi put that bad boy in air-quotes because that seems the norm for open source, not the exception21:23
ttxanotherjesse: it bypasses the design summit discussion, preventing people to comment on the idea...21:24
edaycreiht: and that usually manifests itself as fixing bugs. :)  but yeah, I agree.. new features would be nice to include if it's reasonable21:24
gundlachttx: mailing lists?21:24
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anotherjessemailing lists are more accessible than design summits?21:24
anotherjessein general it seems like more should be happening there21:24
anotherjesse(on mailing lists)21:24
gundlachttx: e.g. the idea to break apart the DB into many small ones.  there was lots of discussion of that in mailing lists, and then we basically said "yep, let's do it" at the summit.21:24
creihtSo someone has an idea, but can't make the design summit, so sorry, too bad?21:25
ttxThe summit is really good to make decisions. MLs are not so great for reaching consensus21:25
* ttx feels general unrest21:25
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creihtSo does ubuntu tell mysql what features they can add?21:25
sandywalshisn't the only thing that blue print approval does is "strongly hope" that a branch will get merged at an preset time?21:25
pikencreiht: I think the solution there would be partial streaming of the summits with participation for remote partoies21:26
sandywalshdevelopers will code at their own pace in their own branches?21:26
dendrobatesno, but they decide what version to merge21:26
ttxsorry, I thought most of the process was agreed upon :/ I guess we need to discuss it a bit more. I really wish we had that discussion last week, now :/21:26
creihtdendrobates: which is fine by me21:26
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xtoddxttx: is our process based on how canonical was run?21:26
creihtxtoddx: more and more every day21:27
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ttxxtoddx: s/canonical/ubuntu/21:27
dendrobateswe have to have a predictable release.  with it becoming more clear as time passes what will be included and what will not21:27
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anotherjessettx: does ubuntu track all features in blueprints for the software/projects it is built on?21:27
ttx(canonical uses agile for internal development)21:27
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ttxanotherjesse: only for significant upstream changes21:28
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anotherjessettx: and the current process is to do blueprints for any non-bug change?21:28
anotherjesseare their other projects that work that way?21:28
* anotherjesse sucks at english - thanks for point it out vishy ;)21:29
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dendrobatesif you releasing something that is getting deployed internally with clear stakeholders agile works very well, it needs to be modified for our case21:29
ttxanotherjesse: drizzle21:29
dendrobatesblueprints are not change control21:29
dendrobatesthey are to give us and all the people and businesses around us an idea of what is going into a release and let us track progress21:30
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sandywalshpersonally I'm confused with a blue print being a design proposal vs. a part of a release contract. Or is it both?21:30
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edayttx: one thing with drizzle though, blueprints were frequently injexted mid-cycle, we didn't really have an exception process. if it sounded good on the ml/irc, it was in  (at least when I was involved)21:31
anotherjesseeday: that seems reasonable21:31
ttxsandywalsh: blueprint is  a part of a release contract. The associated spec is  a design proposal21:31
sandywalshttx, thx21:32
edayI'm not sure which is the "best", i've seen a few different methods work fine and fail.. really depends on the folks involved21:32
gundlacheday: that was my impression of how ubuntu worked -- blueprints can be added at any time, but their features must be in by feature freeze at which point we switch to polish mode.  seems like more work would get done per release that way...21:32
anotherjesseeday: we are a young project - and it feels like there are too many unknowns about openstack and the community to know 3 months ahead of time everything that will exist21:32
ttxok, I propose that those uncomfortable with the current process start up a thread on the ML21:32
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ttx(note #agreed can just be used by the chair :)21:33
vishyoh :)21:33
edayanotherjesse: that's how drizzle was. "oh, we really need to rework the auth plugin layer" one month before release.. so we'd create a blueprint and code.  again, not sure if this was the best way since most of the discussion happened on a weekly call with a small team21:33
gundlach#disagree to that21:33
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dendrobateswe need a starting point for a process and this is it.  There nothing that is going to be draconian about it.21:33
ttx#action Dissenters to start a blueprint process thread on the MLs21:33
edaylarger/disributed coordination means more lead time and discussion21:33
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ttxand... moving on to21:34
ttx#topic Full Bexar release schedule21:34
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/BexarReleaseSchedule21:34
ttxI'm documenting all the freezes, should be done by tomorrow21:34
ttxHopefully the other ones won't meet that much resistance :)21:35
ttxI'll also publish the tentative release schedule for Cactus soon21:35
ttxBoth are based on the consensus from the summit discussion21:35
ttxQuestions ?21:36
ttxMoving on in 5 seconds21:37
ttx#topic Contents of the release meeting21:37
ttxSo I wanted to open the floor on what you want out of the release meeting... recurrent subjects, if any.21:38
ttxPersonally I see:21:38
ttx- Reminder of stage21:38
ttx- Release status21:38
ttx- Status of essential specs21:38
ttx- Status of interdependant specs (specs depending on specs from another group)21:39
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ttx^ I think that last one is particularly important, so make sure you record the dependencies between your blueprints21:39
ttxAnything else you want to recurrently see in meetings ?21:40
anotherjesseI would like to have a conversation about what the top issues that people see in the stack21:41
anotherjesseit could be on the mailing list though21:41
anotherjessediscussing at a high level what we need to focus on to make openstack successful21:41
ttxanotherjesse: A recurrent "Blockers" subject ?21:41
ttxOr would that fit an "Open discussion" topic ?21:42
dendrobateswe   could discuss the buglist21:42
dendrobatesand state of the merge queue21:42
anotherjesseI think the bug list is too low level -- things like -- users want to deploy but the docs sucked21:42
anotherjesseuntil Anne and others worked on it, it was the #1 comment I heard21:42
anotherjessefrom companies and hackers21:42
ttxdendrobates: we'll discuss the RC bug list when we near release (after FeatureFreeze)21:42
ttxdendrobates: you want to mention the "general state" of the bug lists ?21:43
dendrobateshow about bugs targeted to milestones21:43
* ttx takes notes21:44
zuli do like that that meeting is an hour earlier though21:44
dendrobateszul: not for everyone21:44
edayzul: only if you're in dst :)21:44
ttxzul: don't start us on that one :)21:44
ttxok, anything else on the meeting contents subject ?21:45
ttx#topic Open discussion21:45
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creihtso how can we change ubuntu's process so that those changes will bubble down to us?21:47
devcamcarso we've been discussing internally and there aren't any legal barriers left for us to open source our django based web ui21:47
creihtdevcamcar: woot!21:47
devcamcarit needs a bit of tlc21:47
creihttoo bad there isn't a blueprint for it21:47
dendrobatescreiht: our process is actually quite different21:47
zulcool...does it just use the openstack api and the ec2 api?21:47
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ttxcreiht: ubuntu (and drizzle) detail each blueprints into "work items" that you check out one by one in the Bp whiteboard21:48
anotherjessezul: openstack api doesn't yet have the feature set that the ec2 api has21:48
devcamcarzul: currently it uses the ec2 api.  it has ui's for volumes, security groups, and a few others items that aren't supported yet by the openstack api.  it's our goal to move to openstack api once there is parity21:48
zulanotherjesse: just making sure21:49
adjohndevcamcar: great!  where are you going to post it?21:49
anotherjesseafter documentation - having to use EC2 to fully use nova is significant issue imho21:49
devcamcaradjohn: TBD - working with greensius to figure out those details21:49
dendrobatesanotherjesse: I agree21:49
ttxcreiht/anotherjesse: I think most of your objections revolve around which changes warrant a blueprint and which not.21:50
devcamcarthe goal is for it to be on launchpad next to the other bits21:50
adjohndevcamcar: excellent, looking forward to it21:50
creihtttx: My objections revolve around process getting in the way of getting things done21:50
anotherjessettx: mine resolve around the fact I know people will come in with cool patches/ideas and don't want to slow down good code getting added21:50
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devcamcarwe'll be releasing it as two parts: a django module and a reference implementation of a django site that incorporates it21:50
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anotherjessedevcamcar: and probably as a separate project?21:51
anotherjessein the openstack group21:51
devcamcaranotherjesse: yes21:51
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ttxcreiht/anotherjesse: noted. I'll let you develop that in the Freedom vs. Time-based process thread.21:52
anotherjessedendrobates: are there stackers or rackers focusing on expanding the OS api to have more features ?21:52
edaycreiht: on the other hand, there needs to be some process so folks know what is getting done, and for there to be a forum/time to discuss and make sure things get done in the right way. we can't develop independently and hope it all merges clean in the end :)21:52
edaycreiht: I'm all for minimal process though, I just don't know what the right balance is yet21:52
edayanotherjesse: yes, the ozone team21:52
gundlachanotherjesse: i'll probably end up working on that, as i've done a lot of the API thus far21:52
anotherjessegundlach: if you add an example of how to extend things we can help21:52
dendrobateswe are waiting for rackspace to release 1.1 and hand the namespace over.  We can make minimal changes before then21:52
anotherjesseit would be nice to develop the "sys-admin apis" against it from the beginning21:53
ttxeday: I think if you trigger blueprints only for significant changes (or as a feature group) we get the best of both worlds21:53
xtoddxanotherjesse, dendrobates: we should discuss the "service catalog" as part of API version rev21:53
gundlachanotherjesse: cool, i'm not sure exactly what there is to show but i'll be happy to help.21:53
ttxnot too many blueprints (so not too much time spent updating them) and still being able to track progress21:53
dendrobateswe want to make sure they at least finalize what is going in it, so we don't duplicate their work21:53
ttxok, I'll close it now, feel free to continue discussions in #openstack21:55
anotherjessegundlach: i'm afraid the details of where / how to implement the additional apis will be more time consuming then the of implementing the APIs themselves21:55
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anotherjessegundlach: so taking a simple api method that doesn't exist in the "openstack api guide" and adding it would be useful to work through the mechanics21:55
xtoddxanotherjesse: thats where service catalog comes in, then new apis can just register themselves and be discoverable, w/o modifying the existing api docs21:56
gundlachanotherjesse: got it.  WSGI makes it easy as pie.21:56
anotherjessextoddx: does this exist?21:56
gundlachanotherjesse: like destro said, you may want to wait until RS hands off the 1.1 API21:56
anotherjesseI've only done EC2 api stuff21:56
xtoddxanotherjesse: not yet, but pvo and some others are discussing it21:56
anotherjessegundlach / dendrobates eta?21:56
anotherjessextoddx: right but we want to start adding those api methods (like stop/start/list VPNs) now21:57
gundlachanotherjesse: anyhow, i'll start a mail w/ you and annegentle about the best way to document this :)21:57
ttxany last minute comment ?21:57
annegentlegundlach, anotherjesse: I'm all ears21:57
openstackMeeting ended Tue Nov 16 21:57:25 2010 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)21:57
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-11-16-21.01.html21:57
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-11-16-21.01.txt21:57
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-11-16-21.01.log.html21:57
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ttxThanks everyone21:57
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sorenDaviey: You just missed it.21:58
sorenOh, or are you waving goodby?21:59
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gundlachfyi for those who just arrived -- meeting was an hour ago; check your daylight savings time.22:05
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gundlachLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2010/openstack-meeting.2010-11-16-21.01.log.html22:05
ttxOr check the link at http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings for your personal time22:05
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Davieysoren: waving goodbye22:14
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