Tuesday, 2011-09-27

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carlpAre we not meeting today?19:13
jeblairi think our chair may have been pulled away from the keyboard...19:16
jeblairit's looking like "no" to me...19:17
jeblairconsidering all the action items were assigned to him, i'm not sure a formal meeting would be useful.19:18
jeblairinformally: nova moved to git, and i'm working on some hardware for integration testing (expanding and cleaning up what we're doing with the openstack-deploy-rax and openstack-integration-rax jenkins jobs)19:20
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carlpthanks for the info!19:38
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jaypipesoh wait, we're skipping PPB today.20:01
notmynameyes, be we can argue about something, if you want ;-)20:01
johnpurah, must have missed the email20:01
jaypipesnotmyname: no brazil for you. one year!20:01
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jk0I wasn't sure if we were skipping the entire meeting or just that one discussion20:02
jaypipesnotmyname: :) just kiddin20:02
jaypipesjk0: skipping the whole meeting I think20:02
johnpurare we meeting f2f next week?20:02
ewanmellorjk0: jbryce's email looks like we're skipping the whole meeting.20:02
notmynameis there other stuff that should be discussed unofficially?20:02
ewanmellorjohnpur: Definitely!  Beers are on jbryce.20:03
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notmynameheh, we've almost got a quorum anyway20:03
jaypipesewanmellor: ++20:03
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johnpurmtaylor: we have been waiting for you!20:06
mtayloroh- I have now read the scrollback20:06
mtaylorjohnpur: I'll bet you have!20:06
jeblairnow you can have an official vote not to have a meeting. :)20:06
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vishydoes anyone have any opinions about point releases?20:07
vishywe're going to discuss at the summit20:07
vishybut it is on my mind lately20:07
notmynamevishy: what specifically20:07
notmynameit's soemthing that matters to me cause swift is "different"20:08
znsJust joined. Sorry for being late.20:08
notmyname8 here, I guess we can have the meeting if we want20:08
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vishynotmyname: well we have never had one20:10
vishynotmyname: and I think we should20:10
johnpurvishy: are you thinking that we will update diablo?20:10
notmynamevishy: we == openstack or we == nova?20:10
vishywe == nva20:11
vishyjohnpur: i hope we can20:11
vishyjohnpur: cuz it is pretty broke20:11
ttxvishy: actually we had one20:11
vishyttx: did we?20:11
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ttxwhen translations were missing from the original tarball20:11
johnpurvishy: thinking about bringing in keystone & dash at some point on a diablo release? or just in general?20:12
notmynamedoes a project's updates mean a new openstack version is cut?20:13
ttx(for Bexar)20:13
johnpurttx: a blast from the past!20:13
pvoweren't we talking about a diablo+ which included keystone?20:13
ewanmellorI'd definitely like a Diablo+1 with Keystone all working.20:13
vishyttx: ah yeah forgot about that20:13
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ttxI think we should discuss that next week. Point releases have a cost, especially in a "common release" setting20:14
vishyi think that was just a keystone release, not an openstack release pvo20:14
ttxpvo: keystone won't be included before Essex20:14
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ewanmellorvishy: Wouldn't we need Nova updates?20:14
znsThere was work on nova-client to keep up with Keystone too… I think20:14
ewanmellorvishy: i.e. to revert the change that you made just before the release.20:15
ttxso far we've said it was up to the downstream distributors to track updates to stable releases20:15
vishyewanmellor: we moved the middlewares into keystone, so theoretically it is just keystone / dash / novaclient updates20:15
ttxwe can change that20:15
vishywithout touching nova/glance/swift20:15
ttxone way is to make it easier to build updates (maintain a stable branch)20:15
ttxthe other is to try to do point releases20:15
notmynamejust to offer it for consideration: let each project version/release as necessary and then build openstack releases (major or point) on its own schedule20:16
ttxPersonally I prefer that we become stable and release often, rather than enter the maintenance game20:16
znsThis highlights a need for Keystone to maintain it's own client code (which klmitch had started working on) so that updates to the keystone interaction would not impact nova-client if it just imported the keystone client library.20:16
notmynamettx: swift has been stable and releases often and I still get questions about bexar and cactus code in #openstack20:16
ttxnotmyname: would you maintain cactus stable branches with all bugfixes from diablo ?20:17
ttxnot sure that would make any sense20:17
ewanmellorttx: I agree -- it's better for OpenStack to be linear and for downstream to maintain stability branches where necessary.  However, it would be great to have a thing with a name that we were happy with, and it sounds like people aren't happy with Diablo.20:17
ttxewanmellor: so that's another issue -- how to avoid releases that suck20:18
notmynameno, I'd prefer to follow more of the chome model of releasing often with stable updates (I think that's what we have been doing)20:18
ttxewanmellor: and unless people start focusing on the release (before it's released) it won't happen20:18
ttxnotmyname: agreed20:18
notmynamettx: where we == swift20:18
ewanmellorttx: Yes, but that's two questions: how to avoid releases that suck, and what to do about the water-under-the-bridge that is Diablo.20:18
ttxewanmellor: the problem with Diablo is that only a handful of people actually cared about the milestone-proposed branch20:19
ttxso in the end it's untested, and our testing framework is not sufficiently strong (yet) as a safety net20:20
johnpurttx: that sounds like a fundamental issue?20:20
ewanmellorvishy: When you said "cuz it is pretty broke", were you referring to the Keystone issue, or are there other sucky things?20:20
ttxjohnpur: lack of people caring for the end result ? Definitely20:20
vishyttx: on the bright side, we got testers as soon as we announced it20:20
ewanmellorttx: Yes, and my team is as much a part of that problem right now.  I'm working to fix that.20:20
vishyewanmellor: there are other sucky things20:20
johnpurttx: was it "worse" this time?20:20
ttxjohnpur: we need to move from tactical to strategic contributions.20:21
ttxjohnpur: no, but it was not better this time20:21
devcamcarttx: i was confused greatly by the fact that some projects followed our official milestones, and others (see also: keystone) just ignored them20:21
devcamcarcaused a lot of problems for folks20:21
vishyewanmellor: the keystone one was very annoying but I am more concerned about the db_pool instability20:21
ttxdevcamcar: taht's because they are not core projects, so they are not subjected to release management rules20:21
pvoweren't they promoted to core?20:21
johnpurthey are now :)20:22
pvobefore the release?20:22
pvoI assumed that mean they would release with everything else20:22
ttxpvo: for the essex cycle. It takes a whole cycle to make a successful release20:22
vishyewanmellor: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=diablo-backport20:22
pvoisn't that what the incubation is for?20:22
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ttxyou can't add them one month before release and expect them to be aligned20:22
devcamcarttx: not according to incubation policies - all incubated projects are to follow official milestones as part of consideration for core20:22
notmynamedevcamcar: ttx: but keystone especially was given pseudo-core status because everyone assumes it will be the future20:22
pvoto get integrated properly?20:22
vishyewanmellor: the first one is really nasty and the others range from bad to troublesome20:22
devcamcarnotmyname: i understand, but that's still not a reason for it to follow milestones20:22
ttxdevcamcar: yes, following milestones during incubation is a great way to prove you're ready -- but not the only way20:22
devcamcarer, not follow milestones20:22
ttxdevcamcar: in Keystone case, they are ready because all projects start to depend on it20:23
devcamcarttx: we should require incubated projects to follow milestones for consideration to core20:23
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ttxdevcamcar: clearly not because they (don't) follow milestone20:23
notmynamedevcamcar: totally agree. I think that incubated projects should, but they were only added as incubated late in the cycle yet the expectation was to treat them as a core piece. I think that's where the disconnect happened20:23
devcamcarits crazy to have a project that all other projects depend on that doesn't follow milestones20:24
notmynamedevcamcar: swift also doesn't really follow the nova milestones (yet sometimes they line up)20:24
johnpurttx, vishy: are we going to discuss/decide on updating Diablo next week?20:24
znsOwning up here, as well; I was mistakenly thinking Diablo was releasing 9/28 so on 9/21 we were scrambling to finish within 24 hours.20:24
ttxdevcamcar: it's crazy that all other projects depend on a project that is not ready, period20:24
ewanmellorvishy: Thanks -- very useful.20:24
mtaylorI think we might should look at the incubated/core process, because it seems that the reality is that things aren't lining up with the state process20:24
notmynamettx: +120:25
ttxjohnpur: yes20:25
johnpurttx: this is super important for folks that are deploying Diablo20:25
devcamcarttx: can't really argue with that, though in this case i feel it was not well communicated that keystone wasn't being released with diablo (at least as a preview)20:26
ttxjohnpur: yes -- though it's a matter of knowing the scope of intervention for "OpenStack", and where to put our resources20:26
devcamcari only learned a few days ago that it was being released in between diablo and essex20:26
ttxjohnpur: saying it's important won't make it magically happen20:26
ttxdevcamcar: from the beginning of the cycle we knew the core projects that would be released in the end20:27
johnpurttx: i wish that was true...20:27
ttxdevcamcar: doesn't prevent synchronized releases though20:27
devcamcarttx: what was that list in your mind?20:27
ttxdevcamcar: the core projects as they stand at the beginning of a cycle, with design summit etc, are the ones that are released in the end20:27
ttxdevcamcar: you can't just promote one in the middle of a cycle and pray20:28
devcamcarttx: yes, we are in agreement there20:28
ttxdevcamcar: that's why Dashboard was promoted recently: in order to be core during the whole Essex cycle20:28
devcamcarttx: yes i am aware20:28
johnpurwe need to (in a transparent manner) let the community know what the intention/plan is for updating Diablo... so folks can plan on what "release" to based Diablo deployments on20:28
devcamcarttx: i think this whole conversation highlights the need for incubated projects to follow official openstack milestones so we don't have this problem again20:29
johnpurmaybe the answer is, Diablo is done, look at Essex20:29
ttxjohnpur: the current position from PPB (well, from POC) is that maintenance is done by downstream20:29
devcamcarttx: i feel that keystone could have had a functional preview release, but they weren't considering diablo milestones.  we had stuff working and they made breaking changes the week before release.  so it was possible, it just wasn't something anyone seemed to care about20:29
ttxjohnpur: but we should definitely discuss if that's the right thing to do20:29
notmynamettx: the "downstream" being...who?20:30
ttxnotmyname: distributions, or customized packages20:30
ttxnotmyname: basically so far we've said -- rely on distributions, or maintain your own, but openstack only provides snapshots20:30
notmynamettx: so canonical (for example) would be responsible for packaging newer version of nova/glance/swift/etc for packaging and release?20:31
ttxnotmyname: canonical will ship a diablo+ in oneiric20:31
notmynameor piston or nebula or etc20:31
ttxand maintain it20:31
vishyjohnpur: i don't like that answer20:31
notmynamevishy: what about a nova-specific release?20:31
ttxthe trouble with maintaining a version is that it's csotly, and all distributions happen to do it anyway, under their own maintenance terms20:32
ttxwhat we can (should) do, is facilitate that20:32
ttxbut releasing point releases ? maybe not20:32
vishynotmyname:  i'm ok with that20:32
znsThis was also the first integration release for Keystone. Future releases will not break the previous version of the API.20:33
dendrobatesttx: should we at least backport patches for some period of time?20:33
ttxdendrobates: we could maintain a branch with bugfixes20:33
ttxdendrobates: that would help everyone20:33
vishynotmyname: but i know that glance for example has one bugfix that was supposed to make the milestone and got missed20:33
znsWould it make sense for projects like Keystone that other projects depend on to freeze ahead of the release freeze (basically, freezing by E4 for Keystone).20:33
johnpurvishy: a nova specific release would have the same assumptions around intergation with other services that a major milestone has?20:33
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dendrobatesttx: if we don't we could end up with different fixes  in each distro, which would be a nightmare20:34
ttxdendrobates: but it takes time and resources. Currently people are not even looking at the existing bug list. So I fear resources will be missing20:34
notmynamevishy: do you think having separate versions/releases for the individual projects may help solve these problems? release a new version of one project and, if needed, package it up with the rest again as an openstack point release20:34
mtaylorif we are not maintaining our releases long term, I do not know that I see the benefit in our 6-month releases. if we're expecting that ubuntu will release whatever they decide to release, as will piston and nebula - then why not just adopt a chrome rolling model like notmyname uses for swift?20:34
vishyjohnpur: i think it would have to continue to support the other diablos20:35
ttxmtaylor: because Nova breaks things and monthly milestones are even more broken than release ?20:35
mtaylorttx: that's an implementation detail because we haven't been focused on rolling releases20:35
mtaylorbut if we're ignoring releases as soon as we cut them, then what's the point of cutting them?20:35
ewanmellormtaylor: We're _nowhere_ near having a good enough build on a monthly basis.20:35
johnpurvishy: i am just wondering about the level of qa and integration testing we will get, comparable to the final release milestone?20:35
ttxewanmellor: +120:36
mtaylorewanmellor: not saying we are - I'm just wondering what the point of he releases is if they don't really mean anything20:36
ttxmtaylor: when we have confidence in CI that stuff in trunk is not broken, then yes20:36
ewanmellormtaylor: The point is to slow everyone down towards the end of the release, so that we focus on stability and QA.20:36
vishyjohnpur: if ttx and I install it on a few machines we will have euqivalent qa and testing :)20:36
mtaylorewanmellor: sure. but did we do that/did that happen?20:36
johnpurvishy: :)20:36
ewanmellormtaylor: Sure, we definitely took fewer risks in the last milestone.20:37
* vishy is exaggerating (but only a little)20:37
ewanmellormtaylor: Obviously not enough for us to get it right, mind you.20:37
ttxanyway, this should really be discussed in a more open forum20:37
devcamcarzns: +1 to freezing keystone by E4. that would help a lot!20:37
ttxdevcamcar: yes, I was playing with the idea to freeze keystone early in cycle, since everyone depends on it20:38
ewanmellorttx: ...or over a beer in a week's time?20:38
* mtaylor isn't specifically advocating continuously rolling releases - just saying that a 6 month release cycle carries with it an expectation that some sort of longer-lived support will exist for that release20:38
ttxewanmellor: in a session *and* over a beer20:38
mtaylorttx: what? there will be beer next week?20:38
ttxmtaylor: it just carries the expectation that components will have a longer stabilization time to ensure they work well together20:39
ttxmtaylor: the 6-month cycle was never about long-lived support20:39
znsdevcamcar, ttx: I think when we have a new API under a higher version the old one should be unchanged. But if we're releasing an API with features that everyone is integrating to we'll do that. I think, given the experience this time around and the maturity of the process, for Essex we'll freeze by E4.20:39
mtaylorttx: I disagree. that's what we've said we're doing - but I think when people see a "release" they expect to be able to file bugs against it20:39
ttxit was always about more stability than your random milestone20:39
devcamcarzns: happy to hear that20:40
ttxmtaylor: not seeing any update should cure that expectation fast.20:40
mtaylorttx: I doubt it- but ok20:40
notmynamemtaylor: agree20:41
mtaylormy point is that people have been consuming software for years, and there are built in cultural assumptions that come with naming and with practices20:42
mtaylorwe can try until we're blue in the face to subvert those20:42
mtaylorbut we're going to fail20:42
devcamcarmtaylor: i agree - having a LTS style release is a reasonable thing to do20:43
mtaylorwhat we should do is figure out what it is we're doing, and then use terminology and models to communicate reality in a way that will be perceived appropriately20:43
ttxmtaylor: I hear you -- just saying that a lot of projects out there just say" upgrade to the next version", we are not the only in blue20:43
mtaylorttx: yes - but most of them don't have a 6-month cycle20:43
ttxmtaylor: that's where distros shine, provide stable release updates20:43
mtaylorttx: "upgrade to the next version" is much more costly when the next version is 6 months away20:43
notmynamettx: wait, so are you saying that openstack is a distro?20:44
ttxnotmyname: no20:44
notmynameah. too bad ;-)20:44
ttxon the phone for a bit20:45
mtaylorI think distros do a wonderful job of things - but I also think that OpenStack as a brand and as an idea has a responsibilty to name things such that people understand what they are20:45
notmynamettx: but yet above you said that we are snapshots of the projects20:45
mtaylorotherwise, we will have Ubuntu OpenStack Diablo and Fedora OpenStack Diablo - and the two will look NOTHING alike20:45
mtaylorso the words OpenStack Diablo will carry absolutely no sigificance than anyone can count on20:45
notmynamemtaylor: not to mention nebula, HP, Dell, piston, etc20:46
ttxmtaylor: they will be different anyway20:46
mtaylorwe can't just say "the distros will solve it" , wave our hands in the air and expect magic20:46
mtaylorttx: they do not HAVE to be completely different code bases20:46
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ttxmtaylor: they probably won't.20:47
devcamcarnotmyname: this is why the idea of FITS is getting a lot of support20:47
devcamcarso that it *does* mean something20:47
notmynamedevcamcar: I think FITS is a good thing (tm). I think our current practices for packaging/releasing/versioning have caused some...confusion20:48
mtaylornotmyname: ++20:48
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johnpuri assume that jmckenty is not here?20:50
johnpurjust wondering if any pogress has been made on the fits front20:50
notmynamejohnpur: last week he said his timeline was more on the quarter scale (have soemthing by the end of the year)20:51
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devcamcarjohnpur: yea sounds more like a way of certifying for essex rather than diablo20:53
pvois there any merit to *not* sticking strickly to time based releases if we are more interested in not having things broken?20:55
johnpurdevcamcar: looks like it. from the discussion last week we need to iterate on a regular basis on the fits definition.20:55
pvoI mean, stay a close as we can, but it seems we release because its release day, not because everything is working the way we want.20:56
notmynamepvo: watch out. there be dragons there20:56
pvoI don't feel a day or week slip to fix what is truly broken isn't the end of the world.20:56
pvonotmyname: just being pragmatic.20:56
johnpurpvo: channeling ttx, isn't that the definition of time based releases? we just need to get better at making sure the content is stable, tested, and work correctly on release day :)20:57
pvono one is going to care that we slipped a week 2 years from now to make sure we didn't ship with a useless release.20:57
notmynamepvo: I'm with you. this is what swift argued for many months ago :-)20:57
ewanmellorpvo: We'd have slipped, wouldn't we, if it was a question of day or a week?  The problem with Keystone is that people said 6 weeks.20:57
johnpurpvo: love the quote, have used it many time myself!20:57
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ttxpvo: how would 2 more weeks help ?20:58
pvojohnpur: we haven't had a really useful release with time based, have we?20:58
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ttxpvo: only a handful of people worked on stabilizing.20:58
devcamcarewanmellor: true. I think we will have a working preview in a week though for dhboard plus keystone20:58
ewanmellorHaving time-based releases is very useful to me, because I have my own release to get out the door, but by time-based I mean +/- a week is no problem at all.20:58
ttxand that hand was missing quite a lot fingers20:58
pvoewanmellor: ++20:58
notmynamettx: it's the job of every dev to ensure stability. not some group at the end of a cycle20:59
ttxnotmyname: indeed20:59
devcamcarewanmellor: +120:59
ttxnotmyname: but not happening in Nova20:59
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ttxnotmyname: I know only 3 people that actually tested milestone-proposed. Me included20:59
johnpuri think that some of the big deployers should/will step up to the bar going forward to ensure that more effort is applied to qa/stabilization/functional testing20:59
pvonotmyname: I don't disagree but with every dev team running off babysitting their own patches, it usually ends up being only a few testing *everything*20:59
notmynamettx: so we can't try to promote the idea that "not enough people worked on stability" at the end of the cycle20:59
johnpurbt also agree that it is a community effort21:00
devcamcarenter the ci project21:00
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ttxpvo: I would have delayed the release one+ week if I thought it would have changed something.21:00
pvodevcamcar: yes21:00
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pvottx: ok. Fair enough.21:00
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ttxanyway, it's meeting time21:00
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ttxvishy: still around ?21:01
ttxdevcamcar, zns: ?21:01
devcamcarmay lose me for 5 while I get food :)21:02
ttx(sorry if I appear to be ranting,  it's post-release depression)21:02
vishyttx: understandable.  I've been ranting a lot as well.  It is a good thing I don't have a GF or I'd probably be in a lot of trouble21:02
devcamcarI'll just get food on my devices21:03
ttxok, hopefully zns will catch up21:03
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep 27 21:03:19 2011 UTC.  The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.21:03
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.21:03
ttxWelcome to our weekly team meeting... Today's agenda is at:21:03
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/TeamMeeting21:03
ttx#topic Actions from previous meeting21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Actions from previous meeting"21:03
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ttx* ttx to push his session propose rant to the ML: DONE21:03
ttx#topic 2011.3 release postmortem21:04
*** openstack changes topic to "2011.3 release postmortem"21:04
ttxso we started that earlier...21:04
ttxLast Thursday we released OpenStack 2011.3.21:04
ttxWhile the memory is still present, anything we need to do differently next time ?21:04
pvottx: fwiw, we're getting some dedicated QA folks to work embedded with us.21:05
notmynamettx: beyond the big picture issues of releases and versioning, the diablo swift release went well21:05
ttxpersonally, like I just mentioned, I think we've not been focused enough on the milestone-proposed branch over the last month21:05
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ttxresulting in a few high-profile bugs in the release on Nova/Glance side21:05
pvottx: I agree with you, though we're running pretty close to trunk for our Alpha and fixing a lot of issues that arise.21:05
jaypipesttx: ++21:05
ttxI'm not sure adding more time would have changed anything though, except increase Vish and Jay pain21:05
ttxWe need a mindset change -- developers caring more about the project deliverables21:06
pvottx: I 100% agree with you there.21:06
jaypipesinstead of cramming in features at the last minute?21:06
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vishyttx: real deployment tests21:06
vishyttx: we found out about major bugs as soon as people actually tried it out21:06
ttxjaypipes: the release cycle should ensure that -- do you think we (I) was a bit light on that front ?21:06
annegentleI think that expectations around an incubated project were difficult when reality hit.21:07
jaypipesvishy: right, which is why integration tests are so important to gate  trunk...21:07
ttx(Note: Adaptations to the cycle will be discussed during the "Essex release cycle" session at the summit)21:07
jaypipesannegentle: yup21:07
vishyttx: i thought the main issue is all of the teams were getting pulled away focusing on their own deliverables21:07
ttxvishy: not sure how we can address that though21:08
annegentleI don't think testing is all of it though, having an ops mindset would help as well, for docs especially.21:08
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jaypipesvishy: well, that is because those "own deliverables" don't take into account a real baking/QA process for weeks before the release. feature work just continues at a feverish pace instead of testing and bug fixing focus21:08
pvovishy: I think thats true for most teams21:08
ttxvishy: well, I have a few ideas, you heard them last week :)21:08
notmynameautomated tests are not QA21:08
jaypipesnotmyname: they are better than nothing.21:09
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ttxnotmyname: could you enlighten us on the mysterious QA that Swift undergoes inside RAX ?21:09
ttxnotmyname: seems to be working wekk21:09
notmynamejaypipes: yes, but they don't replace QA21:09
jaypipesnotmyname: and if we could write a functional/integration test suite based on the *specs*, that would be rocking. Unfortunately, the specs being driven by the implementation means that this is nigh impossible.21:10
notmynamettx: we have 2 dedicated QA testers who do end-to-end testing at scale across all deployments21:10
jaypipesnotmyname: that's awesome, but not all teams have those resources.21:10
jaypipesnotmyname: and are you referring to just cloud files?21:10
jaypipesnotmyname: because I am referring to the whole kit and caboodle :)21:10
ttxok, we won't resolve all here and now, but think about what we need to change and come with your ideas at the design summit21:11
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ttxbecause we need to improve21:11
jaypipesI'm not trying to be argumentative, just stating some obvious things...21:12
ttxjaypipes: I completely agree with you, in the end it's a question of project-centered resources21:12
ttxjaypipes: but you know that already :)21:12
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ttxWhich brings us to the next subject, unless someone has anything more definitive to add21:13
ttx#topic Design Summit21:13
*** openstack changes topic to "Design Summit"21:13
ttxIf you are a registered attendee, you still have until the end of today to submit your session proposals21:13
ttxWe already have enough, so only submit one if a critical subject is missing :)21:14
ttxAny question on session proposing ?21:14
carlpDo we know when that list will be finalized and scheduled?21:14
ttxcarlp: well, first step is to get them all, so that we know how many we have to refuse21:15
carlpttx: hehe fair enough :)21:15
ttxI hope we can get a final list of sessions by Thursday, and the schedule will be work in progress until the start of the summit21:15
ttxwe'll do a quick overview of tracks during this meeting21:16
ttxThe "OpenStack Core" track is already full with interesting talks21:16
ttxLots of proposals in the "Other" track as well21:16
ttxIt looks like we'll have to move a few of the proposals from there to the Unconference21:17
ttxAny question on the summit, before we move to Swift ?21:17
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ttx#topic Swift status21:18
*** openstack changes topic to "Swift status"21:18
ttxnotmyname: o/21:18
ttxIs the Swift track for the summit coming together ?21:19
notmynameyes. all of the submitted sessions have been reviewed21:19
notmynameI think some the discovery sessions (currently on hold) are as important as the others21:19
notmynamereally hope they can get in21:19
ttxnotmyname: any chance you could tell me which ones are the most important ?21:19
ttxnotmyname: note that the others can be scheduled in the unconference anyway21:20
notmynameya, I can follow up with a priority list21:20
ttxcool, thx21:20
notmynamelooks like a lot of good stuff covered, though21:20
ttxAnything else ?21:20
notmynamenot from me21:20
notmynameany questions?21:21
ttxnotmyname: when we have a near-final list of sessions, I'll ask you (and the other PTLs) for a list of sessions you need to attend, so that I try to build the schedule in a way that allows you to attend them all21:21
jaypipesnotmyname: yes, were you referring to just Cloud Files above?21:21
notmynamejaypipes: with QA?21:21
jaypipesnotmyname: yes.21:22
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jaypipes"we have 2 dedicated QA testers who do end-to-end testing at scale across all deployments"21:22
notmynamejaypipes: yes. we have 2 QA people for cloud files. cloud files == swift, for all intents and purposes21:22
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jaypipesnotmyname: OK. Thank you.21:22
ttx#topic Glance status21:23
jaypipesnotmyname: I was trying to determine whether you were referring to QA folks who were testing an OpenStack deployment21:23
*** openstack changes topic to "Glance status"21:23
ttxAny high-profile bug in Glance 2011.3 ?21:23
notmynamejaypipes: yes. a swift deployment is an openstack deployment, is it not?21:23
jaypipesttx: had one major bug that didn't make it into diablo final (my mistake... just missed it in milestone-proposed)21:23
jaypipesnotmyname: I was referring to OpenStack - the entire project.21:23
jaypipesnotmyname: but I see your point.21:24
ttxWe should at the very least mention it in the release notes, with links to patches/commits, if not done already21:24
jaypipesttx: yes, doing so.21:24
ttx#link http://wiki.openstack.org/ReleaseNotes/Diablo21:24
ttx...so that downstream can fix it in their packaging.21:24
jaypipesttx: there is the broader discussion needed about a maintenance branch21:24
jaypipesttx: yes, already working with smoser on it. will edit the release notes.21:24
ttxjaypipes: Daviey is filing one21:24
jaypipesttx: all glance track sessions are reviewed.21:25
ttx(session on maintenance branch)21:25
jaypipesttx: k21:25
ttxIs the Glance track starting to look cool ?21:25
jaypipesttx: as cool as talking about an image service will be.21:25
jaypipesttx: I'm excited more about some OpenStack Core sessions ;)21:25
ttxa "cloud" image service !21:25
ttxOther questions on Glance ?21:26
* jaypipes very excited about the new Ceph/RADOS driver contributed today... an alternate high-available/distributed storage driver21:26
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ttx#topic Nova status21:27
*** openstack changes topic to "Nova status"21:27
ttxvishy: o/21:27
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ttxSo, a few days later, is Earth still standing ?21:27
vishywell as I've mentioned a few times there were a few nasty bugs that made it in21:28
Vek(technically, Earth doesn't "stand"...)21:28
vishysource security groups are broken, block migration is broken21:28
ttxvishy: are they documented in release notes ?21:28
vishyand the two pretty nasty ones are 1) in some cases flatdhcp will remove your default gateway21:28
vishy2) the db-pool will blow up on any allocations that use lockmode concurrently21:29
vishyttx: no they are not21:29
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ttxvishy: would be good to have them, so that other downstreams know what to apply. I know canonical is on top of the issues, but others might be interested in pointers21:30
ttxat least until we can have that discussion on stable branches21:30
markmcttx, Fedora is using vishy's diablo-backport tag to know what to cherry-pick too21:31
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ttxmarkmc: good.21:31
vishyi will add them to the release notes21:31
Davieymarkmc: Interesting!21:31
markmcDaviey, will cherry-pick into https://github.com/markmc/nova/tree/fedora-patches21:32
Davieymarkmc: I want, no need, you at http://summit.openstack.org/sessions/view/10621:32
markmcDaviey, will be there :)21:32
ttxvishy: The Nova track(s) are still very much work in progress...21:32
Davieycurrently we are carrying flat, cherrry picked patches in Ubuntu packages.21:33
DavieyThis is bad team play.21:33
ttxvishy: did you find time to submit any session you feel is missing from them ?21:33
vishyyes, I've been doing some reviewing21:33
vishyi just submitted two21:33
* ttx looks at his pretty graph going through the roof21:33
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ttxvishy: anything else on your mind ?21:34
DavieyThat is a very open ended question.21:35
ttxvishy, jaypipes: we haven't any "discovery" session in Glance and Nova21:35
ttxI think they offer a great opportunity to recruit for specific areas of code21:36
ttxshould we ask for a bit more ?21:36
vishyttx: I should do one on networking21:37
ttxvishy: I was wondering if we should have a 101 to cover i18n, logging, command execution...21:37
Davieyvishy: a session on all nova-* components sounds useful IMO.21:38
DavieyFor example, i imagine people would like to be more involved in scheduling algorithms21:38
vishyDaviey: sandywalsh should do another one on scheduling21:39
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vishythat was great last time21:39
Davieynova-api enrichment?21:39
ttxok, we'll work on that for the remaining of the week21:39
ttxOther questions on Nova ?21:40
ttx#topic Keystone status21:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone status"21:40
ttxzns: o/21:41
ttxSo it looks like we still need a Diablo-compatible release of Keystone, any ETA on that ?21:41
ttxhmm, looks like we've lost zns21:43
ttxdevcamcar: around ? Maybe we can do you first21:43
ttx#topic "Dashboard" status21:43
*** openstack changes topic to ""Dashboard" status"21:43
ttxdevcamcar: There aren't so many sessions around Dashboard proposed.21:43
ttxMaybe you should split "Dashboard Diablo review and Essex roadmap" into something more... descriptive ?21:44
devcamcarttx: i'd be happy to split diablo review and essex planning up, certainly could use the time21:44
devcamcarour general update is that we're trying to land a version compatible with diablo and the latest changes to keystone21:44
ttxdevcamcar: we don't really do retrospectives at the summit21:44
devcamcarttx: fair enough, i can split up into a few smaller more descriptive chunks21:45
heckj(maybe we should)21:45
devcamcarwe only have a few outstanding issues with keystone21:45
devcamcari am hopeful we can land a "preview" version compatible with diablo whenever keystone is ready for us to21:46
devcamcarwe are ready now21:46
ttxheckj: I think I didn't express myself correctly. I mean, we are not doing a full session to look at the features we just added -- the idea is to look forward21:46
ttxheckj: doesn't prevent learning from mistakes :)21:46
* Daviey remembers to take rotten fruit with him to throw at people for retrospective/post-mortem sessions.21:46
devcamcarttx: i have lots of idea to split up into smaller sessions, i will take your advice and do that21:46
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ttxdevcamcar: that allows people to know what they are going to see21:47
devcamcari do want to say thanks to the folks at rackspace who have helped us with keystone migrations during diablo cycle21:47
devcamcarand that is my update21:47
ttxQuestions on "Dashboard" ?21:47
DavieyIs Diablo dashboard released now?21:48
ttxdevcamcar: do you need 25min for your naming ceremony ? I thought it could be done as a lightning talk on the first day21:48
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ttxi.e. put names on wall, let people yell for a bit, then choose.21:48
devcamcarttx: lightning talk is good with me21:48
ttxok, will decline that one then21:48
Davieydevcamcar: ^^21:49
devcamcarDaviey: we will drop code as soon as keystone is ready21:49
devcamcarDaviey: hopefully in the next week21:49
Davieydevcamcar: ok, thanks.21:50
ttxzns: around ?21:50
ttxanyone from keystone ?21:50
ttxdanwent: around ?21:50
ttx#topic Incubated project news21:50
*** openstack changes topic to "Incubated project news"21:50
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danwentQuantum diablo was released on friday21:51
danwentnow includes a v1.0 spec and a draft administrator guide21:51
* annegentle cheers21:51
ttxCongrats on that21:51
danwentappropriate for "early adopters" :)21:51
danwentPlease check out the NetStack track for the Essex summit, lots of great things to talk about in Boston21:51
annegentledanwent: so can I just point a Jenkins job to your source repo to build the docs?21:52
danwentin particular, several people have contacted us about how to integrate higher level network services21:52
danwentso we will have a session or two on that.  if you build things that plug into networks, please drop by.21:52
danwentannegentle: sorry, still need to reply to your mail.  yes, we'll get the docbook sources into repos so we can build them automatically21:53
danwentthat's all from me21:53
annegentledanwent: great, thanks21:53
ttxdanwent: are you going to edit the sessions based on Ram's feedback ?21:53
ttxdanwent: I still need a prioritized list, btw21:53
danwentttx: ram already edited some himself, I will edit others based on feedback from the team21:54
ttxso that I can start accepting the most important ones21:54
danwentI was waiting to see if anyone was planning on proposing anythign else, will know this by the end of the netstack meeting today :)21:54
danwenthopefully everything is in already21:54
ttxAnything else ?21:55
bmcconnejust wanted to say I've been running quantum for a few weeks now and it's been quite stable for me. working well :)21:55
danwentbmcconne: great to hear :)21:55
danwentttx: that's all21:55
ttxzns / anyone from the Keystone crew ?21:56
ttxI guess we won't have them today21:57
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ttxfwiw I'm working with Joe Savak on finalizing the Keystone track at the summit21:57
annegentlettx: I just asked yogirackspace to join21:57
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ttxyogirackspace: welcome !21:57
ttx#topic Keystone status21:57
*** openstack changes topic to "Keystone status"21:57
ttxyogirackspace: Any news on ETA for a Diablo-compatible release of Keystone ?21:58
yogirackspaceall the calls that were supposed to work we have completed as of now21:58
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ttxdo you plan to release / tag something D / 1.0 / 2011.3 ?21:59
yogirackspacewe shall be tagging soon21:59
devcamcaryogirackspace: https://bugs.launchpad.net/keystone/+bug/85767121:59
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 857671 in keystone "Auth protocol doesn't work properly for admin users" [Undecided,New]21:59
yogirackspacewould let every one know when it happens21:59
devcamcarthis one is needed for dashboard21:59
yogirackspacewe are working on pending things and wrapping up22:00
yogirackspacewould make sure that all issues are addressed22:00
devcamcaryogirackspace: can you be more specific than "soon"?22:00
yogirackspaceneed to talk with others as well.Would end of week (max) suit every one?22:01
devcamcarhaving something i could release for dashboard before the summit sure would be nice22:01
devcamcarbut dropping code friday doesn't give us much time22:01
devcamcarbut i'll take it22:01
yogirackspacetime outlined is worst case22:02
ttxyogirackspace: was saying just before you joined I'm working with Joe Savak on finalizing the Keystone track at the summit22:02
yogirackspacewe might veryfy everything and might release tomorrow22:02
devcamcarok tomorrow then, will hold you to that :)22:02
ttxyogirackspace: anything else on your mind ?22:02
yogirackspacemight => a mighty word ;)22:02
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yogirackspacewe have started implementing22:04
yogirackspaceour extensions22:04
yogirackspaceand also finding featyres for Essex22:04
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yogirackspacewould keep every one posted if there is anything else22:04
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edgarmaganahello world!22:05
danwentedgar: network meeting hasn't started yet22:05
ttxtime running up22:05
ttx#topic Open discussion22:05
*** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion"22:05
ttxanything / anyone before we let our networked friends take over ?22:06
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annegentleThursday morning of the Conference portion of next week I'd like to hold a discussion about how to get more women involved in OpenStack. All welcome!22:06
vishyannegentle: Nice!22:06
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ttxannegentle: I promise I didn't reject any woman from the summit waiting list. There just wasn't any.22:07
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annegentleWe may even have a yoga class or something to enlighten our minds prior to discussion. :)22:07
annegentlettx: yes, understood.22:07
annegentleof course :)22:07
ttxok then22:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/"22:08
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep 27 22:08:40 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:08
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-09-27-21.03.html22:08
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-09-27-21.03.txt22:08
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-09-27-21.03.log.html22:08
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ttxdanwent: floor is yours22:08
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danwentthx ttx22:09
openstackMeeting started Tue Sep 27 22:09:07 2011 UTC.  The chair is danwent. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.22:09
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.22:09
edgarmaganaDan: Thanks for the heads up22:09
danwenthey all.22:09
danwentedgar: np22:09
danwentbtw, salv is stuck at SFO trying to get his car rental22:09
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danwenthe sends his regrets22:10
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danwentshould be a pretty short meeting though22:10
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danwentagenda: http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/Meetings22:10
danwent#topic general status22:10
*** openstack changes topic to "general status"22:10
danwentdesign summit is next week, hope to see you all in boston22:11
danwenttoday is the last day to get proposals in, but space for netstack items is already overflowing.22:11
dendrobatesI highly suggest we make use of the unconference for overflow22:11
danwentwe've had to drastically cut down on the time for our sessions.  hopefully we can make a lot of use of the unconference space though, as I want to make sure everyone gets a chance to discuss what they want to cover22:11
danwentdoes anyone have a session that they think is really important, but haven't proposed?22:12
danwentits now or never…. (or rather, not until the next summit)22:12
danwentOk, so the plan is to start the summit focusing on more tactical items that are fairly well understood (e.g., API v1.1)22:13
danwentThen we'll branch into general discussions about how to insert more advanced network services.22:13
danwentfinally, we'll have sessions to talk about a few of those specific services that people are most interested in.22:14
danwentdoes that sound reasonable?22:14
danwenthopefully we can leave some space at the end so people can find unconference space to branch out from there22:14
danwentOk, great.  Any other questions/concerns about the summit/conference?22:14
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danwentschedules still aren't set.22:15
danwentttx said that summit schedule may not be finalized until close to monday.22:15
edgarmaganadan: the session about networking services is the one that you have submitted?22:15
danwentedgar: I think we'll merge your session and mine into a 55-minute session.22:15
danwentdoes that sound reasonable?22:15
edgarmaganadan: Absolutely!22:16
danwentI think this will be a key topic of interest, so I definitely want to make sure it gets time.22:16
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danwentOk, that's it for the summit.  let's move on to the regular agenda22:16
danwent#topic donabe status22:16
*** openstack changes topic to "donabe status"22:16
danwent(shaking it up, putting donabe in front of melange :P)22:16
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dendrobatesI sent out an email about tomorrows meeting22:17
dendrobateswe are going to try webex but fall back to irc, if there is a problem22:17
danwentdendrobates:  I may need to channel salvatore and request that we alternate between webex and go-to-meeting22:17
dendrobatesI will be sending out an agenda before the meeting22:17
dendrobatesdanwent: that is fine as long as we can record the session22:18
danwentactually, i prefer webex22:18
dendrobatesIt may be a total failure, but it is worth a try22:18
danwentI think its great to try to get people on the same page pre-summit22:18
dendrobatesThat's really the only update  I have.22:19
danwentok, any questions for donabe?22:19
danwent#topic melange status22:19
*** openstack changes topic to "melange status"22:19
troytomanhave moved the merge prop over to git/gerrit22:19
troytomanworking through comments22:19
troytomanalso closing gaps between the nova/quantum/melange flow22:20
troytomanfinally, should finish up some of the nova refactoring to make the integration cleaner22:20
danwenttroytoman: yeah, i definitely things there still room for that as well.  I would add dashboard to the mix too.22:20
troytomanthat's about it22:20
danwentone of the sessions we'll have on monday is going to focus on that flow from the user perspective.  should be very helpful.22:21
carlptroytoman: TV and I would love to chat with you next week re: discovery22:21
troytomanmay have host a unconference discussion about how to enable multi-nic/quantum in nova api22:21
troytomancarlp: sure thing22:21
danwenttroy: I think we can cover that to some degree in the flow session, then perhaps have an unconference to do more detailed design.22:22
troytomanso that you can select networks and add vifs at create time22:22
danwentagree that it is really important22:22
troytomandanwent: perfect22:22
danwentok, any other questions for melange?22:22
troytomandanwent: sounds like the right place22:22
danwent#topic quantum status22:22
*** openstack changes topic to "quantum status"22:22
troytomanok. see everyone next week!22:23
danwenttroy: thx22:23
danwentquantum release went out.22:23
danwentBig thanks to Salvatore for the v1.0 API doc.22:23
danwentThanks for all for reviews on the Quantum Admin Guide.22:23
bhall_thanks to dan for the admin guide and last minute merges :)22:23
danwentit would be great to have input on how to setup quantum + dashboard, so we are ready to go once keystone releases.22:23
troytomandanwent: thanks for all your leadership on that. awesome work everyone!22:24
danwentmarkvoelker here?22:24
edgarmaganadan: +1 last time I tried ran into some issues22:24
danwentor arvind?22:24
znsttx: sorry - missed you. If you're still around, my understanding is that Keystone is now Diablo compatible. Is there anything missing?22:25
danwenthey mark, are you folks planning on doing a session at the summit about dashboard + quantum?22:25
znsdevcamcar: is this bug a show-stopper for you or does it just result in admins seeing all tenants?22:25
danwentor should be just roll that into the flow discussion?22:25
danwentzns: sorry, main openstack meeting is over and people have likely left.  This is the NetStack meeting.22:25
markvoelkerI don't currently have one planned, but there has been some chatter about what we'd like to see.  May be a good topic for unconference22:26
znsdanwent: ok - sorry to butt in.22:26
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danwentzns: np22:26
somikunconference or I did see salvatore propose a session, so roll dashboard discussions into that..22:26
markvoelkerEither way works for me. =)22:27
danwentmarkvoelker: ok, great.  I'm sure this will come up in the discussion on flow, which Salv proposed.  If there are details beyond that, we can do an unconference.22:27
danwentI'll try to make sure day 3 has sufficient time for unconference sessions resulting from earlier sessions.22:27
danwentOk, any other comments on the release or docs?22:27
danwentI think we probably already covered the summit + conference at the begining of the meeting.22:28
danwentwe got a lot of good press for quantum, as Quantum was mentioned in the main OpenStack release announcement.  very cool.22:28
danwentbhall, anything you need to discuss about the shift to github, gerrit?22:28
danwentis everyone getting review emails now?22:29
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bhall_danwent: I talked to jeblair about this this morning22:29
bhall_the way it works now is that anyone that wants emails about new reviews/etc needs to go add themselves as watchers in gerrit to the quantum project22:29
danwentgot a link?22:30
bhall_I can send out an email about how to do this22:30
danwentok great.  thanks.22:30
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danwentin that email, could you also include the pointer on how to transfer a diff from launchpad over the github?22:31
bhall_but, until I do that, just go here: https://review.openstack.org/#settings,projects22:31
bhall_and add quantum22:31
danwentOk, great.  Any other questions on quantum?22:31
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danwent#topic open discussion22:31
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion"22:31
danwentok, that was short and sweet.22:32
danwenteveryone please do send out what you have as far as blueprints ahead of the summit meeting itself22:32
danwenthopefully we'll have an finalized netstack agenda by tomorrow.  We may have to wait longer to know the exact time of sessions though.22:33
danwentsee you all in boston :)22:33
*** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/"22:33
openstackMeeting ended Tue Sep 27 22:33:30 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)22:33
openstackMinutes:        http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-09-27-22.09.html22:33
openstackMinutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-09-27-22.09.txt22:33
openstackLog:            http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2011/openstack-meeting.2011-09-27-22.09.log.html22:33
* markvoelker is already in Boston, but sadly hasn't had time to scope out a place for Quantum 1.0 celebratory drinks =)22:33
danwentedgar:  I still owe you an email… hope to get to that very soon!22:33
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somikhave a good one everybody till next week!22:34
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