Thursday, 2011-11-17

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renukashall we start the volume meeting?18:00
renukado we have the volume folks here?18:00
vladimir3pis there anybody else?18:03
renukavladimir3p: hi, i am not sure18:03
vladimir3psorry, I missed couple previous meetings18:04
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DuncanTSorry, just got here18:04
renukavladimir3p: that's alright18:04
openstackMeeting started Thu Nov 17 18:04:55 2011 UTC.  The chair is renuka. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.18:04
renuka#topic openstack volume18:05
*** openstack changes topic to "openstack volume"18:05
renukavladimir3p: did you have a chance to decide on whether you could implement the scheduler?18:05
vladimir3pyes, I will do it18:05
vladimir3pare there any other volunteers?18:05
renukadid not hear back from anyone18:06
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renukado you have an estimate of when you could start, how long it might take, etc?18:06
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vladimir3pwe were quite busy with our internal tasks18:07
vladimir3pmost likely closer to the end of next week I will have time to start it18:07
vladimir3pah, it will be a thanksgiving18:08
vladimir3pso, week after that18:08
renukaright :) and how much work do you think it is?18:08
vladimir3pIMHO, max couple of days :-)18:08
vladimir3pI will actually need to extend the new distributed scheduler18:09
vladimir3pto allow operations with volumes as well18:09
renukaright, did you get a chance to look at the meeting minutes/logs for the affinity work?18:10
vladimir3psorry, had no chance to look at them18:10
vladimir3pcan you pls briefly summarize what you've decided?18:10
vladimir3por I can take a look later18:10
renukaDuncanT: would you like to give a summary/update?18:11
renukaNot sure if he is around, the blueprint is here:
DuncanTI've not had chance to start on anything yet, and I've not yet heard back on  a definitive answer on generic key/value .v. adding a new named field18:12
vladimir3pI've seen this BP18:13
renukaso i think we agreed that we should have, at create, a field for affinity and anti-affinity18:13
DuncanTThe basics of it are in the blueprint though - I was hoping to get vladimir's opinion on whether it is just a special case of general free-form constraints?18:13
renukawhich expresses the volumes/instances to which affinity/anti-affinity exists18:13
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renukafor example affinity: vol-0000001, i-00000618:14
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vladimir3pI agree that it is a special case. The question if we would like to address the afinity/anti-af in "general" way or just allow vendors to implement it by their own18:14
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vladimir3pI can imagine the discussion re: what afinitiy/anti-afinity rules may have higher priorities, etc18:15
DuncanTrenuka: That's certainly the the approach I'm assuming, but vish was going to check with the API folks as to whether a generic key-value pair system was appropriate instead since placement rules in general are hard to predict and we don't want to be adding ten million new fields18:15
vladimir3plike if you indicate both affinity to vol and instance - which one is the preferred one18:15
DuncanTvladimir3p: I'd assume it would be vendor specific, at least for a while18:15
vladimir3pyeah. in the past I've suggested to add a special placement/scheduling requirements18:16
renukavladimir3p: why not order the affinity: <highest priority>  <next highest>....18:16
vladimir3pbut it didn't come through I suppose18:16
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vladimir3prenuka: yep, this is definitely an option18:16
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vladimir3pat the same time you may want to have a list of objects with the same priority18:17
renukaDuncanT: for now I suggest we go with the extension that has the basic affinity/anti-affinity keywords18:17
vladimir3pin volume_create request?18:17
renukathis seems fairly well defined a problem, so I do not see the need for a generic field at this point18:17
vladimir3por in volume_type params?18:17
DuncanTrenuka: That's what I play on doing, it won't take long to change it if a different interface is desired18:18
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renukavladimir3p: It probably doesn't matter if non-conflicting things have the same priority and are expressed one after another18:18
renukaif we do not do this, we will have a lot of complexity in the code to deal with "what happens if the user specifies conflicting goals to be at the same priority"18:19
vladimir3pok, anyway meanwhile we can plan to put an infrastructure in and allow other vendors to override it18:20
DuncanTvladimir3p: Agreed18:21
renuka#idea In volume create, affinity is expressed as affinity_to: <highest priority> <next highest>... etc18:21
renukavladimir3p: do you have an ideas about this infrastructure?18:22
vladimir3prenuka: or anti-affinity18:22
vladimir3pI propose to add those fields as "per request" and not in volume types18:22
vladimir3pas we may need to specify for each volume (of the same type) where to put it18:23
DuncanTvladimir3p: They absolutely are 'per-request'18:23
renuka#idea same as above for anti-affinity18:23
DuncanTanti-affinity exactly the same18:23
vladimir3pDuncanT: yep18:23
vladimir3pthere were ideas to use special metadata keywords18:23
vladimir3pthis is an option as well...18:23
DuncanTAs far as whether the scheduler can do anything useful with them, I have no strong view - we have very little requirement from the scheduler18:24
vladimir3pregardless of how we will deliver it - the idea is to be able on scheduler level to acces them18:24
DuncanTmeta-data keywords is basically the generic key-value idea18:24
renukavladimir3p: you mean keywords other than affinity and anti-affinity?18:25
vladimir3pDuncanT: yes. Don't know if we want to reserve some keywords for that18:25
renukavladimir3p: or were you saying this in general, and not with respect to affinity alone18:25
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vladimir3prenuka: yes. For now we have no other keywords that we need18:26
vladimir3pfrom our perspective we have following requirements for the scheduler:18:26
vladimir3p1. to be able to create multiple volumes in one call18:26
vladimir3p2. to be able on scheduler level to determine host abilities18:26
renukavladimir3p: I am usually wary of adding generic key value pairs to requests where behavior can be defined... the documentation and behavior becomes hard to keep up with it18:27
vladimir3p3. to be able to specify that particular volume should not be allocated from hosts where other volumes are allocated (anti-affinity)18:27
vladimir3prenuka; agree18:27
DuncanTrenuka: The problem with that is it means all values must be defined, which removes vendor flexibiltiy18:27
renukaDuncanT: at this stage, we are having vendors come up and state their requirements, so we should deal with it individually ...18:28
DuncanTAllowing arbitary keywords, even with the proviso that they are only for advisory data, gives more flexibility18:28
renukaDuncanT: what I mean is, where we need generic key-value pairs like at some point for scheduler rules, we can use them... but we should not use them before that point18:29
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renukaDuncanT: like i said, if these are scheduler rules, then maybe we should have a keyword "scheduler-rules" and add these as arbitrary strings that can be passed18:31
renukathis will ensure that suddenly no one starts using the generic key value input for defining entirely different behavior18:31
DuncanTIn our case they aren't really scheduler rules though, they're just extra data to pass to the driver18:32
DuncanTrenuka: I'll think about what other examples I can come up with. It isn't something that needs a decision now18:32
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vladimir3pso, seems like our options are: a. in request structure to have a special field like scheduler/placement requirement. b. put same keyword in meta-data. c. no special keywords - just put to meta-data whatever you want and driver later will look (or not look) at metadata18:33
renukavladimir3p: would it be alright to add an action for you to start the implementation of the scheduler first week of december?18:34
vladimir3pyep, put it in18:34
renuka#action vladimir3p to start scheduler implementation in the first week of december18:34
renukathe other reason to go with known keywords as far as possible is to be able to provide usage strings and maybe at some point auto completion18:36
vladimir3pok guys, do we have anything else to discuss?18:38
DuncanTI've nothing this week18:38
renukame neither18:38
renukashould we call it a day then?18:38
*** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: | Minutes:"18:39
openstackMeeting ended Thu Nov 17 18:39:13 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)18:39
vladimir3phave a great weekend and we will talk in .. 2 weeks18:39
openstackMinutes (text):
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vishyDuncanT: generic key value18:43
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DuncanTvishy: Thanks, I'll go that way and let people know next week18:45
DuncanTHopefully I'll have the code by then18:45
DuncanTThere really isn't much to it18:46
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maoyhi anybody here?20:00
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mikeyppresent !20:03
mikeypdo we have a quorum ?20:03
maoylooks like just you and me mikeyp20:03
mikeypok, we can have a short meeting I guess20:05
mikeyp#startmeeting Orchestration20:05
openstackMeeting started Thu Nov 17 20:05:29 2011 UTC.  The chair is mikeyp. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.20:05
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Orchestration)"20:05
maoy#topic workflow engines20:05
mikeyp#topic workflow engines20:06
*** openstack changes topic to "workflow engines (Meeting topic: Orchestration)"20:06
maoyi was wondering about the error handling in the mailing list20:07
mikeypwe dont have an agenda full agenda - I think it's workflow engines, eventlet/zookeeper, and anything else20:07
maoyi'm interested more in they handle runtime errors20:07
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maoyand also if it deal with some failure issues, such as a node is crashed20:08
mikeypmain thing I noticed was that exceptions are just raised; there didn't appear to be any concept of exception handling specific to the workflow.20:08
maoyis the exception raised in another node (or another Python interpreter)?20:08
mikeypit's single threaded, no conecpt of concurrency or parallelism.20:09
maoygot it20:09
maoybut we need something that can handle those20:09
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mikeypdefinitely, but I didn't find any cloud-grade (tm) workflows libraries20:11
mikeypit's raises the larger point of how this will all work together - think we need Sandy for that.20:12
maoyok. i'll put some thoughts on that too.20:12
maoyi'll try to convert my powerpoint proposal to a wiki page before next meeting.20:12
mikeypthe strawman I have in my head is 'orchestration' is a reliable service, that calls into other openstack services.20:12
maoynow that i've read though the nova code i have a better idea how to fit in the code..20:13
mikeypI'm not sure what the granularity would be, either in initial or later releases.20:13
maoyi think combining that, with more orchestration cooperation logic inside the compute/network nodes, we have something there.20:14
mikeypit seems like TROPIC could support fine grained control.20:14
maoythe "orchestrator" might actually nicely fit with the scheduler20:14
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mikeypagreed - I see changes there.20:15
maoymike, can you elaborate in "fine grained control"?20:16
mikeypjust the general level of steps.20:16
mikeypso today, the operations are pretty high level.  Schedule calls create, and a large number of things happen.20:17
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mikeypshould those individual operations be coordinated by orchestration ?20:18
maoyi think if they are non trivial, e.g. takes a while to finish20:18
maoythey should report their status20:18
maoyso that the orchestrator could 1) know what's going on20:19
maoy2) if it's stuck/dead/crashed20:19
maoy3) abort, or restart if necessary20:19
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mikeyp#action get sandys input on granularity of orchestration20:20
maoythe state of the workflow progress should be available20:21
maoyit could be either in database, or in zookeeper20:21
maoyright now, the task_state column is kind of like that20:21
maoybut can definitely be improved20:22
mikeypyes - when I'v done this in the past, workflow runs independently of other operations, and can be interrogated20:22
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mikeypin your TROPIC work, where there multiple workflow servers ?20:24
maoyi also like to use the analogy of the OS process20:24
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maoywe essentially need to build mechanisms to track the distributed processes as a coherent workflow20:24
maoyrestart, or abort it if necessary20:24
maoyif you look at those business workflow management software, they are solving a different problem20:26
maoyyes. in TROPIC we call them controllers20:26
maoythere are multiple of them20:27
mikeypbusiness workflow tends to focus on process control, rather than process execution.20:27
maoybut only one is elected as leader to make decisions20:27
mikeypso one is active, the others are 'standby' or failover ?20:27
mikeypgot it - thats what I thoiugh the paper said.20:28
maoyit's hard to make distributed decision. :)20:28
maoyalthough possible, we run the numbers and seems one active is fast enough20:29
maoyi also looked at the other proposal mentioned in last meeting20:29
maoyfrom dragon20:29
maoyi felt it's very similar to the ppt file I sent20:30
mikeypI#topic pacemaker20:30
mikeyp#topic pacemaker20:30
*** openstack changes topic to "pacemaker (Meeting topic: Orchestration)"20:30
mikeypI haven't really reviewed it, was mostly looking at libraries.20:30
mikeypwhat are the main differences ?20:31
maoybetween dragon's and mine?20:31
maoymine also proposes to keep logs so that we can automatic rollback20:32
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maoyhold one20:33
maoyi need to refresh my memory. :)20:33
maoy#action maoy gives dragon proposal feedback20:34
maoyi'll do this in an email after the meeting20:34
mikeyp#action maoy gives dragon proposal feedback20:34
mikeypok, I will also review it.20:35
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maoyi don't know much about pacemaker20:35
mikeyp#action mikeyp to review dragon's proposal20:35
maoythe picture of pacemaker seems to suggest that corosync is a dependency which i also know nothing about20:36
maoyi got zookeeper working with eventlet20:37
maoyso that's not a concern.20:37
mikeyp#link  dragondm's proposal20:37
mikeyp#topic zookeeper / eventlet20:37
*** openstack changes topic to "zookeeper / eventlet (Meeting topic: Orchestration)"20:37
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mikeypyes, I saw that, good progress.20:38
mikeyp#topic vm-stat transitions20:38
*** openstack changes topic to "vm-stat transitions (Meeting topic: Orchestration)"20:38
mikeypThe proposed vm state transitions are in review20:38
mikeypThey seem to be held up, but I'm reviewing the changes anyways.20:39
mikeypI should have said state transition management20:40
maoysomehow i felt that the solution they proposed is a little too complicated20:41
maoyi remember i saw a big state transition table in the summit20:41
maoyhopefully it can be simplified, otherwise it's hard to debug20:42
mikeyphopefully, orchestration can remove some of the complications.20:42
mikeypso, what else do we have ?20:43
mikeyp#topic wrap up20:43
*** openstack changes topic to "wrap up (Meeting topic: Orchestration)"20:43
maoynot much20:43
maoynext week is thanksgiving20:44
mikeypOK, then lets wrap up till Sandy can review - I know he was out of pocket travelling today.20:44
mikeyp#action mikeyp to send email re: next week schedule20:45
mikeypok, ttyl.20:45
*** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: | Minutes:"20:45
openstackMeeting ended Thu Nov 17 20:45:48 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)20:45
openstackMinutes (text):
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zykes-danwent: around ? :)21:01
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