Friday, 2011-12-09

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bcwaldonI apologize to anybody here for the nova-api team meeting. I did say 20:00 UTC in the initial email but it was added for 21:00 UTC to the official calendar20:15
bcwaldonI'm going to wait until 21:00 to start20:15
* heckj lurks until time20:16
bcwaldonheckj: sorry!20:17
heckjno worries, I can hang - this is just sitting mostly in the background20:17
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bcwaldonhello everybody!21:01
bcwaldonannegentle: I want to make sure you're here before we start up21:01
annegentleoh sure I'm here21:02
bcwaldonnot sure if vishy is21:02
bcwaldondoesn't need to be, but he said he would!21:02
openstackMeeting started Fri Dec  9 21:02:46 2011 UTC.  The chair is bcwaldon. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.21:02
bcwaldonwell let's get started anyways21:02
bcwaldon#topic OpenStack Compute API versioning and extensions21:03
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Compute API versioning and extensions"21:03
bcwaldonso I *thought* I had a good idea of where we want to go with this, but Mr. Williams had to go and screw it all up ;)21:03
jorgew..actually it's Dr. Williams :-)21:03
jorgewlol, sorry man21:03
bcwaldonno worries!21:04
bcwaldonso I'm going to spend some time this weekend and come up with a draft versioning proposal for OpenStack Compute21:04
bcwaldonLooking to collaborate with jorgew early next week on that21:04
jorgewThat sounds good…I'm looking forward to it21:05
bcwaldon#action bcwaldon to write up versioning proposal21:05
annegentlebcwaldon: got a high-level overview for that proposal?21:05
annegentlebcwaldon: as if I'm a kindergartner? :)21:05
bcwaldonannegentle: something along the lines of what mnot proposed a month or so back on the ML21:05
annegentlebcwaldon: ok, will look for the link for the notes21:05
bcwaldonAt a super hight level, versioning our compute api solely by mimetypes21:06
bcwaldonand treating each resource somewhat individually w.r.t. versioning21:06
bcwaldonit's hard to explain...21:06
bcwaldonso I was hoping for some discussion here21:07
bcwaldonbut if its just the three of us...21:07
* bcwaldon waits to see if anyone is lurking21:07
annegentleheckj: around?21:07
bcwaldonwell, I guess we'll move on and defer this discussion to the ML next week21:08
jorgewsounds good.21:08
bcwaldonso annegentle, do you want to discuss extension docs?21:08
bcwaldon#topic Extension Documentation21:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Extension Documentation"21:08
jorgewBTW, anne thanks for the comments on the list…haven't had a chance to reply but I'm with you on most/all points21:09
annegentleI think I rounded up my thoughts in a note to the mailing list21:09
bcwaldonok, anything you want to bring up in particular? Feel free to say no :)21:10
annegentlejust a sec...21:10
annegentlewas going to say, Jorge has agreed to most all the items21:10
annegentlesome of it we have to have more input on21:10
annegentleI went to the OpenStack-Austin meetup last night and then emailed it to a few folks from there21:11
annegentledidn't get in person feedback then but solicited more input21:11
annegentlereally what heckj brought up about related-ness to the API site is probably the biggest question out there now21:11
annegentleand my other "concern" is about how it's like pulling teeth to get the stuff written. :)21:12
jorgewI think that we have a need for user guides21:12
jorgew…and that's not what's out there21:12
jorgewthis is just documenting how each extension changes the API21:12
jorgewsorta like a spec.21:12
annegentlejorgew: right, so the two issues are related, the authoring side and the display side21:12
bcwaldonI would really like to block reviews that add extensions w/o some level of documentation21:13
annegentlejorgew: or we just call them unrelated and I recruit both types of content21:13
jorgewWhat's the issue with the authoring side, cus honestly think things are getting better in that dept21:13
bcwaldonif we can make it easy for people to provide that documentaiton, I think its 100% doable21:13
annegentlebcwaldon: that's a good point too, the governance of both the extension and their docs needs defining21:13
jorgewbcwaldon: for sure.21:13
jorgewRight I agree.21:13
bcwaldonso that might just be something I need to enforce within Nova21:14
jorgewI think if we give people more of an incentive to write docs will get written21:14
bcwaldonannegentle: can you send me the details of what exactly you want from extension authors?21:14
annegentlebcwaldon: and finding a small team of enforcers so there's distribution of work21:14
jorgewannegentle: right21:15
annegentlebcwaldon: so I've got a contribution coming in January from a writer at HP21:15
annegentlehe basically wrote dev-guide style docs for floating ups, etc21:15
annegentleIPs that is21:15
annegentleso it's more instructive for api users than instructive to a reader to revise the spec21:15
annegentlewe've had to reuse specs as dev guides21:16
annegentlebut really it is time to create real dev guides21:16
annegentleI think we're gathering some resources to do so - HP needs it for sure too21:16
annegentleand Rackspace is hiring21:16
bcwaldonthat's awesome21:16
jorgewannegentle:  I agree, we need more dev guides21:16
bcwaldonA lack of resources is probably the biggest pain point right now21:16
annegentleso it's a matter of matching up the doc with the audience21:16
annegentlebcwaldon: what I'm hoping is we'll get an influx in January, and I'd like to be able to tell people we're being strategic about placement21:17
jorgewannegentle: But we also need info on how an extension modifies a spec.  Their not mutually exclusive21:17
annegentlejorgew: absolutely, both are needed21:17
bcwaldonok, so the developer himself is probably the main consumer of any specific extension doc21:17
annegentleI just can't prioritize spec doc over user docs :)21:17
annegentleas far as resource planning21:17
jorgewWell we need both21:18
jorgewand usually the spec comes first … it informs the user doc21:18
bcwaldonannegentle: maybe this is something we need to talk about in the meeting on monday21:18
bcwaldonannegentle: I've just come up with a whole bunch of questions I want to ask :)21:18
jorgewit would suck to write user docs while a spec is in flux21:18
annegentleyeah priorities are certainly worth prioritizing21:18
annegentleer, discussing21:19
annegentleI think both are needed by Esse21:19
bcwaldonSo since we're in a 'nova-api' meeting, what would you say to the members of this team21:19
bcwaldonRight now I'd say the members are mainly developers21:19
annegentlethis team could give input on both sites - Extension and API - that'll help lay out tasks21:19
annegentlebasically this team can review21:20
annegentleyeah? I'm just looking for ways to lay out the work21:20
bcwaldonright, and wouldn't the members of this team be the ones writing the extensions themselves?21:20
bcwaldonassuming this team has a larger dev representation21:20
annegentlebcwaldon: yep and the docs to go with it and reviewing each other's stuff21:21
bcwaldonright, so every aspect of extensions are basically contained within this team21:21
annegentlebcwaldon: cool21:21
bcwaldonwould I be correct in saying that if we had a wiki on how to write an extension, that would help the devs help you?21:21
* heckj reads scroll back really quickly21:22
annegentlebcwaldon: yes and also describing the method that an extension becomes core21:22
annegentlemethod/process/governance? Not sure what it really is.21:22
bcwaldonit could cover the technical side, obviously, but then offering resources for documentation that can be handed off to the docs team when complete21:22
annegentlehi heckj!21:22
jorgewbcwaldon: have you taken a look at the templates I put together?  From a spec perspective, I think most of what we need can be gathered from there.21:22
heckjHi! Sorry - had to run out just before this started. Just landed21:22
bcwaldonjorgew: I haven't had a change to (not other than what Anne showed me)21:22
annegentlebcwaldon: I don't really see a handoff necessarily, since there aren't resources.21:22
bcwaldonby 'resource' I meant templates21:23
bcwaldonbut yes, I guess but handoff I mean mergeprop21:23
jorgewbcwaldon: links at the bottom of the extensions page21:23
bcwaldonjorgew: where *is* that extensions page21:23
bcwaldonjorgew: or are you talking about the one you sent to me to review21:24
bcwaldonI'm so lost21:24
heckjSorry - I'm not tracking. What's the topic?21:24
jorgewheckj: extension and documentation21:24
heckjjorgew: I like the implementation of what you're doing there, but the idea is flawed from a usability perspective21:25
heckjYou have to know to read the main docs and all the extensions21:25
jorgewheckj:  this isn't user docs, it's specs21:25
heckjjust to find what you're trying to do, or to see if you even CAN do it21:25
jorgewheckj: we were just talking about how we need both docs and specs21:26
heckjcould you quickly summarize what a "spec" is for me then?21:26
jorgewor rather guides and specs21:26
bcwaldonjorgew: ok, why is that docs site on ''? Why not
annegentlebcwaldon: at the time the team designed it, extensions we weren't certain extensions were accepted by the PPB21:27
jorgewheckj: from an extensions prespective it defines specifically how the extension has changed the spec…to the point that an implementor can modify an implementation21:27
heckjjorgew: because when I look it at, I thought it was additional documentation on the API21:27
bcwaldonannegentle: ok, any plan on migrating to
jorgewheckj:  Yea I understand the confusion.  In the past our user guides and our specs were the same document.  That needs to change21:27
annegentlebcwaldon: sure, we could do that if the community and PPB believe it to be maintainable and useful, it's really in a review stage now21:28
jorgewheckj: so we should rename the title21:28
bcwaldonannegentle: ok, just curious :)21:28
annegentlebcwaldon: yeah it's a good question21:28
heckjso the goal of the spec - an example of such being, is that this is place where someone implementing the spec would go to read on what should be implemented?21:28
jorgewheckj: or a user that wants to know exactly how the spec has changed21:29
heckjSo you want to keep a living history of how the API has changed over time with a series of these specs available for someone to read and review?21:29
jorgewheckj: Well, not all extension are going to be available in all deployments.21:30
jorgewheckj: Take a look at
jorgewfor an overveiw of extension mechanism21:31
annegentleheckj: Rackspace and HP have to provide docs that include what extensions they have in their deployment21:31
annegentleheckj: and others who have public or private OpenStack clouds21:31
jorgewheckj: what's actually in a deployment is a combination of the core and 0 or more extensions21:31
bcwaldonReal quick guys, I think we're done with the nova-api meeting. I'm going to end it if nobody else has anything related21:32
bcwaldonkeep this discussion going though :)21:32
annegentlebcwaldon: oh I did want to hear about the versioning21:32
annegentlebcwaldon: are we still doing a 1.1 > 2.0 rename21:32
annegentlebcwaldon: and can extensions be brought in at all?21:33
annegentleyou may have answered this already but thought others could benefit from my confusion being clarified21:33
bcwaldon#topic v1.1 -> v2 rename21:33
*** openstack changes topic to "v1.1 -> v2 rename"21:33
bcwaldonok, so I'm fine doing a true rename, but I think it's easier to not do it21:33
annegentleto rephrase my last question, can extensions be brought to core in the essex time frame21:33
bcwaldonhold on21:33
heckjannegentle: ++21:34
bcwaldonjorgew: do you see any problems with an actual rename?21:34
jorgewannegentle:  I don't think it's possible to move all of those extension to core.21:34
heckjwhy not?21:34
jorgewbcwaldon:  I'm okay with the rename.21:34
bcwaldonannegentle: what were your concerns with a rename21:34
jorgewheckj: because core functionality is stuff that you can expect in all deployments21:34
annegentlere: extensions moving to core, Just wondering if any extensions would move how many, what timeframe, etc. It affects user doc.21:35
heckjyes - and there's a LOT in the extensions that can or should be in every reasonable deployment21:35
annegentlere: rename, the more I look at how many files are affected and the work needed, I'm concerned about how to get a rename done.21:35
jorgewheckj:  That's great, we should work towards promoting those features.21:35
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bcwaldonannegentle: yes, that's what I'm concerned about too21:35
bcwaldonannegentle: what ramifications are there if we don't rename anything and just release the next set of docs with a big '3' on it?21:36
annegentleyes I agree with heckj many of the nova api ext are just expected21:36
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annegentlebcwaldon: to me, none, but I'm new to this, haven't done a deployment, etc.21:36
bcwaldonas for moving extensions in, we essentially have to design them into our next iteration of the api21:36
jorgewbcwaldon: I'm also okay with leaving the API name 1.1 :-)  Really how big the impact will be depends on what our versioning scheme is. can we wait until that gets settled first before we decide21:36
bcwaldonjorgew: yeah, that's what i'm leaning towards21:37
bcwaldonannegentle: let's table the rename discussion until we have a greater consensus on versioning21:37
jorgewbcwaldon: Right, we need a major version change to bring an extension in21:37
jorgewto core21:37
annegentlebcwaldon: sure, sounds good21:37
heckjbcwaldon: seems reasonable21:37
bcwaldon#topic Extension Promotion path21:37
*** openstack changes topic to "Extension Promotion path"21:37
bcwaldonyeah, so an extension should live in the context of a single major version21:38
bcwaldonthis extension extends version 221:38
bcwaldonthe need for that extension may go away in version 321:38
jorgewbcwaldon:  that's true21:39
jorgewbcwaldon: but the extension may stick arround version 3 as well21:39
bcwaldonsure, but it shouldn't be assumed to21:39
bcwaldondoes that make sense to everybody?21:39
jorgewright.  That's why extension are detectable… you dont assume that they are there you can detectem with /extension21:39
annegentlebcwaldon: can you walk through it with Floating IPs for example?21:40
bcwaldonannegentle: sure21:40
bcwaldonso in v2 right now, we have a floating ips extension that adds 2 actions to /servers21:40
bcwaldonwhen we design v3, let's assume we decide to add it as a core feature21:41
bcwaldonwhen we release the v3 spec, floating ips will already have been accounted for, so there is no extension necessary21:41
bcwaldonif we decide *not* to include floating ips in v3, a new extension will have to be added21:42
bcwaldonthe reason there is that the api design may change in such a way that the old v2 extension doesn't make sense21:42
annegentleso dev does work in /nova to move floating IP functionality from the contrib dir, it gets reviewed and in to trunk.21:42
bcwaldonOR, that extension may *not* need to change if we don't make any breaking changes in the part of the spec that it extends21:42
annegentlethen docs get added to indicate this is in core?21:43
bcwaldonthe v2 extension doc can hang around21:43
bcwaldonand the v3 core spec will have the floating ips in it21:43
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bcwaldonannegentle: did you have anything else you wanted to discuss?21:45
heckjbcwaldon: process makes sense, thanks21:45
annegentlebcwaldon: nope, thanks it's very helpful for my planning purposes21:45
bcwaldonjorgew: anything to add?21:45
jorgewno I think that makes sense21:46
bcwaldonok, any other topics of discussion?21:46
bcwaldonalright, thanks for attending!21:47
*** openstack changes topic to "Openstack Meetings: | Minutes:"21:47
openstackMeeting ended Fri Dec  9 21:47:11 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)21:47
openstackMinutes (text):
jorgewthanks waldon21:47
bcwaldonyeah, no problem21:47
annegentlethanks for answering all my Qs guys!21:47
bcwaldonannegentle: I think theres more to talk about on monday at your docs meeting21:47
annegentlebcwaldon: sure, sounds good21:47
bcwaldonalright, I'm out. Have a good weekend you guys!21:47
heckjThanks for coordinating the mtg brian!21:48
jorgewyea c ya guifs21:48
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