Wednesday, 2012-06-06

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jgriffithWeekly cinder meeting time... anybody here today?16:00
jgriffithrenuka: Hey there16:01
openstackMeeting started Wed Jun  6 16:01:38 2012 UTC.  The chair is jgriffith. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:01
jgriffithFolks are typicall a bit late so we'll give them a few minutes16:02
jgriffithrenuka: how did the meetup go?16:02
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renukajgriffith: it was good, i think... I may have had more beginners than we expected16:02
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jgriffithNow we're getting somewhere :)16:03
renukajgriffith: Here's my slides if anyone finds them useful
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jgriffithrenuka: Very cool, thanks!16:04
jgriffithsleepsonthefloor: Howdy16:04
jgriffithOk, we've got a descent turn out today so let's get started16:05
jgriffith#topic status16:05
*** openstack changes topic to "status"16:05
jgriffithThe past week has been really good thanks to a lot of help from sleepsonthefloor16:05
jgriffithCurrently he's ben able to use the cinder service in devstack16:05
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jgriffithThis includes creating a volume and attaching it16:06
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jgriffithThere's a bunch of work in Draft status right now in both the client and in nova16:06
jgriffithI think by the end of the week we should be ready to push these out16:07
jgriffithsleepsonthefloor: Do you want to mention anything about the keystone work you're doing now?16:07
sleepsonthefloorjgriffith: sure - we need to do a little tweaking to the keystone middleware to pass a service catalog...16:07
sleepsonthefloorthis will allow services like nova to know where to find services like cinder16:08
sleepsonthefloorright now, we are hard-coded to find cinder at
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sleepsonthefloorin the long run, glance and quantum should also use the catalog to find their respective services, I believe16:09
sleepsonthefloor(right now they are defined in flags)16:09
sleepsonthefloorshould have that today16:09
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jgriffithThat might change my strategy a bit...16:09
claygI thought when nova-api was serving the openstack/volumes api - it already required an entry in the service catalog for python-novaclient16:09
clayg^ same for glance16:09
uvirtbotclayg: Error: "same" is not a valid command.16:09
renukasleepsonthefloor: (pardon my ignorance) but why can't they continue to be flags? or are we combining some amount of cleanup with this?16:10
sleepsonthefloorclayg: yes that is the service catalog is returned to the nova client yes, but that information is not readily available in nova16:11
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claygsleepsonthefloor: ah yes, I see your point, nova flags define where glance is... same thing for now for cinder16:11
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sleepsonthefloorrenuka: I mention that as an aside, that would not be a cinder-related change16:12
renukasleepsonthefloor: gotcha16:12
jgriffithsleepsonthefloor: So we could still use a flag for "which" volume service to use and then the catalogue to figure out where/how to connect if it's cinder yes?16:12
sleepsonthefloorclayg: when nova validates a token, keystone does not return the service catalog associated with the token - need some tweaking to make that happen16:12
sleepsonthefloorjgriffith - yes16:13
jgriffithsleepsonthefloor: Or more accuratley which volume_api to use16:13
sleepsonthefloorjgriffith: I think we would stick with the flag for which volume.api16:13
claygare their any relevant nova patches needed with devstack c/7042 - or is everything mostly already in nova and cinder master16:14
jgriffithsleepsonthefloor: Sounds good16:14
sleepsonthefloorclayg: yes there are several16:14
claygi didn't see them in renuka's awesome slides (thanks renuka!)16:14
renukaI remember there was some talk in the summit before last about how we should "expose" a volume to a host only when an attach request comes in, for better security... have we planned for that in any way?16:14
renukaclayg: sure :)16:15
sleepsonthefloorclayg: there are patches for devstack + cinder + cinder client + nova and soon to be keystone16:15
jgriffithrenuka: I think with having the service outside of nova that's going to happen by default16:15
claygI think cinder could choose do to the export in initialize_connection instead of create_volume, nova-compute would have all relevant info when making the initialze call16:16
jgriffithclayg: exactly16:16
claygsleepsonthefloor: ok, well if you can get a list of working patches that I should be testing - I can help test16:17
sleepsonthefloorclayg: great - I will do that one sec16:17
jgriffithrenuka: clayg Vishy wrote up the steps... #link
renukajgriffith: right, but if we need to use keystone for the auth, do we need to do anything special?16:17
claygjgriffith: ok, I'll need to go through that then - thanks16:17
jgriffithrenuka: You mean in terms of the connection info etc?16:18
renukajgriffith: yes16:18
jgriffithrenuka: The work sleepsonthefloor is doing now covers it I believe16:19
renukajgriffith: IIRC that was the proposal, to have some auth at that stage, so if anyone were to hack into a compute server, they cannot take over all the storage16:19
jgriffithrenuka: there's still a risk for attached/connected volumes16:20
jgriffithI don't know how we fix that yet16:20
jgriffithI don't recall the discussion at the last summit, or the proposal... maybe you could elaborate on it?16:21
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claygso it looks like the cinder-worksheet is sorta "pre" sleepsonthefloor's patches (share rpc, db, etc.)16:22
claygsleepsonthefloor: perfect16:22
jgriffithclayg: Yeah, that worksheet is kinda "dead"16:23
jgriffithclayg: but it has some of the initial thoughts/descriptions that might be useful16:23
jgriffithclayg: going forward we wanted to use blueprints/bugs, the worksheet was really just initial stages16:23
claygI think i was kinda up to speed to that point (I may have even seen that before), I'll update sleepsonthefloor's new sheet if I have anything to note.16:24
jgriffithclayg: sounds good16:24
renukajgriffith: This was the session:  ... I don't know much of it myself, I just remembered the proposal, so was curious16:24
jgriffithrenuka: Ok, thanks...  quick glance;16:25
letterjHi.   I would like to ask a couple of questions.16:26
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jgriffithI think that by having the attach go through the cinder service via token might address this16:26
claygrenuka: I was in that meeting - I think the generally folks felt that it would be an improvement, but still had some holes.  I don't think the presenters ever submitted patches.16:26
jgriffithrenuka: I'll have to read it more closely later and see16:26
jgriffithletterj: Sure, are they related to current topic?16:26
jgriffithletterj: If not, maybe wait til we finish status discussion?16:27
jgriffithSo we sort of medled status and outstanding items...16:28
jgriffithDoes anybody have anything to add/ask about current status or shall we got to specific outstanding items?16:29
jgriffithAlright, let's talk about the things left for F216:29
jgriffith#topic Items for F216:29
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jgriffithWe already mentioned that patches and pieces that sleepsonthefloor is working on16:30
jgriffithThe other significant thing is some refactoring in the ec2 side of the house16:30
jgriffithI'm working on this and should have it ready end of day today or tomorrow16:31
jgriffithMostly right now it's a matter of making the tests work16:31
jgriffithec2's creat_volume should just call into the cinder api and "work" without too much hassle16:32
jgriffithWe got most of the direct db calls factored out when we did the uuid migration so that's good16:32
claygjgriffith: I don't really see how eucatools are going to work with ec2 and ebs provided by seperate services - is this a requirement for F2?16:32
jgriffithclayg: I wanted to have a functional replacement for nova-volume for f216:33
jgriffithclayg: depending on the interpreter that may or may not include eucatools16:33
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jgriffithclayg: But I don't see why they wouldn't just point to the cinder api instead of todays volume.api?16:34
jgriffiththe cinder API is a full abstraction so...16:34
jgriffithwhat am I missing?16:35
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claygjgriffith: I guess I don't see why either - I'm not eucatools expert, but I would have assumed if it was working - it was routing all requests (create & attach) through the nova-compute-api16:35
jgriffithclayg: ahhh16:35
jgriffithclayg: No, it goes to both nova-compute-api and nova-volume-api16:35
claygI don't think the client will be smart enough to make create to cinder then attach to nova, so nova (or whoever is providing ec2 compat) will have to re-route requests to the appropriate service)16:35
jgriffithclayg: Yeah, but in most places it's already doing that today16:36
claygjgriffith: ok16:36
jgriffithIt's seperated fairly nicely between the api's16:36
jgriffithclayg: could be that I just haven't stumbled across the section that blows up in my face yet16:37
jgriffithwe'll see16:37
jgriffithif eucatools isn't ready by f2 I think that will be ok, but it's going to take away from what we can do for f3 etc16:37
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jgriffithAnything else on f2 action items?  Anybody see anything they want to work on?16:39
jgriffith#topic outstanding reviews16:40
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jgriffithNot too much here, I think the jekins issues should be fixed so I'll resubmit I5cd73a2516:41
claygsleepsonthefloor: get the big stuff first -,unified16:41
jgriffithclayg: :)16:41
jgriffithclayg: That and the other "big" one are still drafts16:42
sleepsonthefloorclayg: :)16:43
jgriffithI need: #link
claygjgriffith: that's all just pep816:43
jgriffithYeah, so then when the drafts are ready we'll be set16:44
jgriffithThe other one that failed jenkins I think I can just go in and +2/a it again and jenkins will try it again16:45
jgriffithclayg: I know it seems irrelevant, but there are a few things in draft or in personal branches that will be showing up "soon"16:45
jgriffithclayg: Plus, doesn't do us much good if we can pass jenkins pep8 tests16:46
claygno it's fine, I'm checking it out now16:46
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jgriffith#topic unassigned blueprints16:47
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claygsleepsonthefloor: I'm I missing a patch that would show where nova acctually uses volumes/
sleepsonthefloorclayg - ah yes, I may have to push a few more devstack changes16:48
sleepsonthefloorI'll update the devstack patch in a few mins16:48
sleepsonthefloorjust need volume_api_class=nova.volume.cinder.API16:49
jgriffithOk, so we've got a number of things here, just wanted to do the weekly check to see if anybody wanted to sign up for any of these?16:49
jgriffithAlso need to add one for snapshots...16:50
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 1008866 in nova "Creating volume from snapshot on real/production/multicluster installation of OpenStack is broken" [Undecided,New]16:50
sleepsonthefloorclayg - updated16:51
jgriffithIt would be great if folks see some things here they might be interested in working on.16:52
jgriffithAll the pieces should be in place later this week to start hitting these16:52
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jgriffithJust let me know if somebody wants to grab any of these16:53
jgriffith#topic open discussion16:53
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jgriffithletterj: You had some questions?16:54
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letterjyes,   I was looking at the api.   Should there be a force-detach16:54
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letterjalso, what is a reserve volume?16:55
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claygletterj: reserve volume is mark volume as attaching16:56
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letterjso it's just a status change16:56
jgriffithletterj: detach doesn't need a force, it isn't dependent16:56
renukaletterj: reserve volume is required for a race condition that can arise when multiple simultaneous attaches are called for the same volume16:57
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letterjIf a detach gets stuck in an error state how is that handled?16:58
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jgriffithletterj: The detach actually just modifies the columns in the db16:58
jgriffithAre you referring to the compute side possibly?16:58
renukajgriffith: he probably means the operation as a whole, when issued from command line or horizon16:59
renukado we have states in the attach/detach process? i.e. can we say if the attach/detach went through on the compute side? at that point, we can do something on the volumes side of the world17:01
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letterjI'm asking about what happens when the states get out of sync.    nova state vs cinder state17:02
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letterjand there is more clean up to do than just updating a db field.17:02
jgriffithletterj: ahhh... so for example compute thinks it's attached and volumes/cinder thinks it's detached17:03
letterjyes or the other way around17:03
jgriffithletterj: right..17:03
renukawe shouldn't change the state until we get a detach success from compute17:04
jgriffithletterj: I think that definitely needs to be looked at17:04
renukawouldn't that be pretty straight forward?17:04
jgriffithrenuka: Yes, I believe so.  But as he mentions the other diretion is still possible as well17:04
jgriffithBy adding the force option we can recover from either situation17:04
renukawe don't change the state until we get attach success from compute?17:04
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letterjI just asking because there is nothing to handle thing stuck in error-detaching or error-attaching situation in nova currnently except manually hacking17:06
jgriffithletterj: I think I understand where you're coming from17:07
renukaletterj: currently, since we don't use cinder, these states are not very cleanly separated17:07
jgriffithsimilar to the stuck in "creating" problem17:07
sleepsontheflooryeah, was going to say, I think the issues letterj mention may not be cinder-specific17:07
letterjyes sir17:07
jgriffithletterj: It's an existing problem and yes it needs to be addressed17:07
jgriffithletterj: If there's not a bug perhaps you could file one?17:08
renukaletterj: also, it may not be as simple as force, for example, what if there was an error on the hypervisor side while detaching... not sure how cinder would be able to "force" it... or are you suggesting that we manipulate our db anyway17:08
letterjI filed a bug quite a while ago
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 944383 in nova "There is no way to recover/cleanup  a volume in an "attaching" state" [Medium,Confirmed]17:08
jgriffithletterj: Yeah, sorry just found it17:08
jgriffithso another thought is rather than "force" etc maybe some special recovery actions/functions17:09
claygrenuka: I do think that cinder should be able to destroy the remote connection and update it's db as "available" even if the consumer (nova) can not respond to the users's reqeust17:09
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jgriffithclayg: But there's a problem here because we "don't know" what the actual state is17:10
renukaclayg: what if detach has actually failed and the volume is still attached to the instance on the compute host?17:10
jgriffithclayg: renuka so if we run with a force we catch the exception for the invalid state and just perform the steps anyway maybe17:11
claygrenuka: I can cirtainly see that possibility, but it would be nice if you could still request cinder to break down the connection.17:11
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claygrenuka: I think the more likely case would nova says it's attached (host still has a connection) but the guest no longer sees the volume.17:13
renukahmm ok I agree with "needs some thought" because any inconsistency here could lead to corrupting a users data... e.g. attaching the volume to more than 1 instance where it is possible17:13
renukaalso billing, because cinder thinks it is detached, while the user still has access to it17:13
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claygI would imagine most storage providers are going to bill on volumes that exist and take up space regardless of attached/in-use status17:15
claygI don't think cider should allow a "second attachment" even if nova *does* thinkg it's not in use.17:15
jgriffithclayg: I agree on the second attachment, unless it's an attach to the same instance_uuid17:16
letterjOne other case I can think of is that if the guest goes away for what ever reason you might want to perform a detach locally in cinder without tying it to a nova transaction.17:16
edmcClassic "split brain" problem… only solution is a common/shared arbitration mechanism (e.g. a "third vote")17:17
renukaok so we're talking of "cleanup" rather than force detach by the looks of it? maybe we need an admin api to purge any bad connections?17:17
jgriffithrenuka: That was my thought earlier, rather than force some api call that does sync/cleanup or whatever we decide to call it17:18
letterjIf things don't work correctly "cleanup" will usually be required17:18
claygrenuka: I think the problem exists outside of cleanup, and has value to end-users - particularlly when the client is something besides nova.  In the case where cinder recieves a "foricibly terminate any remote connections for the volume" message - if nova supports it - we could warn them we're doing it.17:18
jgriffithbut takes the point from edmc and does a compare of sorts17:18
jgriffithclayg: That could be "part" of the cleanup no?17:19
jgriffithclayg: ie they run a terminate and it fails, now they need to run cleanup17:19
jgriffithmy point here is if you want to do it correctly/safely the implementation looks the same regardless of what you call it17:20
claygjgriffith: yes, if they can.  If not - we can still expose a force_detach to make the volume available - _regardless_17:20
jgriffithif it's a force-detach or a cleanup17:21
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letterjBut I also think nova is gong to have to have something like this as well as cinder17:21
renukaclayg: why does this need to be user facing?17:21
jgriffithOk, so we're all in agreement that there's an issue here that needs to be addressed17:21
letterjCool.  Thanks for taking my question.17:22
claygrenuka: Who else but the user can say if the volume should or should not be attached to an instance?17:23
renukaI have a quick question... you can get back to me with the answer17:23
renukaclayg: the user can say detach of course... in case of an error, we either invoke cleanup automatically or as some kind of purge daemon process... why should the user be involved with the force?17:24
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renukaSo as for my question, next thursday, at the Openstack meetup, we were trying to get the attendees to do an end-to-end feature, something that is super simple, but touches most of the stack17:25
renukaif anyone has any low-hanging-fruit kind of feature suggestions, please send me an email17:25
claygrenuka: if the client (nova) never sent cinder the detach command - we don't know what the user wants.  So the cleanup all falls to nova.  Which I think is less than ideal.17:25
DuncanTWow, massive meeting! Sorry I'm (ridiculously) late17:26
sleepsonthefloorrenuka: see and
renukasleepsonthefloor: thanks17:27
jgriffithOk, one last question to throw out17:27
jgriffithclayg asked about why attach/detach etc is an extension and not core api17:28
claygapparently all I do is sit around and pontificate the nature of attach and detach all day17:28
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jgriffithMy thought was extension because we may use cinder for "other things" and these could look differently depending17:28
jgriffithclayg: :)17:28
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DuncanTattach/detach are the only parts (so far) that have to get their hands dirty dealing with nova17:29
jgriffithdoes anybody have any strong opinions/thoughts around this? besides clayg :)17:29
jgriffithDuncanT: connection info as well17:29
DuncanTBut connection info is an opaque action, still completely within cinder, yes? Attach is the first time the hypervisor in involved?17:30
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renukai think logically, connection info is "more core" than attach, by DuncanT's reasoning17:31
letterjI agree with clay on the attach/detach issue17:31
claygto clarify (hopefully), I had thought that almost any backend for cinder would want a notification on attach and detach (if for nothing else but book keeping in cinder) - so why not make it core17:31
claygintialize_connection/terminate_connection would work find in this context - whatever the core api wants to call them17:32
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jgriffithjust FYI I currently have no real preference on this whatsoever, just wanted feedback from everybody else17:33
renukaIt would be nice to have a good reason why they should not be core, if we decide to make them extensions17:34
jgriffithrenuka: so they're already implemented as extensions thanks to sleepsonthefloor17:35
claygjgriffith: I'm ok with sleepsonthefloor's current patch and appreciate all of his hard work of course, but at somepoint it'd be nice to have a clean core api that make sense in multiple context.17:35
jgriffithSo part of this also just stems from how vish laid it out in the worksheet17:36
renukaperhaps we need vish's opinion then17:36
renukaoh cool.. i was going to suggest question for mailing list :)17:37
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jgriffithvishy: So the question is attach/detach and connection info being core api versus extension17:37
vishyjgriffith: so initialize_connection / terminate_connection should be core imo17:38
vishyattach/detach reserve/unreserve i'm not so sure about it.17:38
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vishyattach/detach should probably be generalized into just metadata17:39
vishyreserve/unreserve possibly could be to if we can force atomic metadata updates somehow17:39
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jgriffithclayg: does this work for you?17:41
claygjgriffith: yeah, sounds like it's a longer term plan, but maybe before f-final we could have init/term in CORE?17:42
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claygspeaking of f-final - when does nova-compute-volume-extensions get removed?  when does nova-volume-api get deprecated?17:43
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vishyclayg: if we have feature parity by f-2 we replace it17:44
vishyduring f-317:45
claygso there's no deprecation period?  upgrading from essex to folsom is migrating from nova-volumes to cinder?17:45
jgriffithclayg: That's what I'm hoping for17:48
jgriffithWe're way over today17:48
jgriffitheverybody good for now, or should we hash some more of this out?17:49
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jgriffithOk, thanks everyone!17:50
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openstackMeeting ended Wed Jun  6 17:50:22 2012 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:50
claygI'm good, pleanty of stuff to look at - thanks all!17:50
openstackMinutes (text):
jgriffiththanks clayg !!17:50
vishyclayg: that depends.  We will send out an email to the ml when we have finished feature parity and migration and switch the default17:50
vishyclayg: if there is need for it, we will leave the code in for f deprecated17:51
claygvishy: ok, reasonable as always - but what about the poor volume extensions - rip those out sooner yeah?17:51
vishyclayg: I think we can probably pull the volume extensions for sure17:52
vishyclayg: afaik everyone is using the volume api now17:52
vishyclayg: we have to leave the attach extension in though obviously.17:52
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claygvishy: yeah, maybe rip out and trim it down to just attach at the same time17:56
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