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| annegentle | okay, who's here for the doc team meeting? | 20:00 |
|---|---|---|
| annegentle | Beth sent her regrets | 20:01 |
| annegentle | joesavak is busy today | 20:01 |
| annegentle | dwcramer: around? | 20:01 |
| KarinLevenstein | I'm here. | 20:01 |
| annegentle | woo~ | 20:01 |
| annegentle | wabat: around? | 20:02 |
| annegentle | ah, Mondays. | 20:02 |
| annegentle | :) | 20:02 |
| wabat | yes I am | 20:02 |
| * ijw is sticking his nose in | 20:03 | |
| * dwcramer I'm here | 20:03 | |
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| annegentle | cool, let's get started! I'm going to skip Skype today if no one protests - okay? | 20:03 |
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| annegentle | welcome writerDiane! | 20:03 |
| annegentle | #startmeeting | 20:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Jun 11 20:03:58 2012 UTC. The chair is annegentle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:03 |
| writerDiane | Hello! | 20:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 20:04 |
| annegentle | Agenda at http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/DocTeamMeeting | 20:04 |
| annegentle | #topic Action items from last meeting | 20:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from last meeting" | 20:04 | |
| annegentle | First one was Anne to send Beth draft "Learning OpenStack" document | 20:04 |
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| annegentle | Done - sent to Beth and wabat (Walter) for their review, they'll look at it this week for uses | 20:04 |
| annegentle | Second was joe to review bps and cdt product roadmap and update bps accordingly | 20:04 |
| annegentle | I'm meeting with Joe Savak tomorrow and I'll follow up. | 20:05 |
| annegentle | : put a list of pertinent metadata into the blueprint | 20:05 |
| annegentle | not sure who was the colon :) | 20:05 |
| annegentle | but I added some | 20:05 |
| annegentle | Done - added three items to the blueprint: | 20:05 |
| annegentle | git SHA, version of the plugin used to build the particular page, Name or ID of last contributor to the page | 20:05 |
| annegentle | I think those would be a great start. | 20:06 |
| annegentle | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+spec/doc-metadata | 20:06 |
| annegentle | last action - Anne to add individual blog posts to Google CSE | 20:06 |
| annegentle | Done - added the ones from http://wiki.openstack.org/BloggersTips. For example, if you search for virtualbox on docs.openstack.org, the fourth hit now is a blog post. | 20:06 |
| annegentle | I think I'm now two posts behind the list at BloggersTips but I think it's easily maintained. | 20:06 |
| annegentle | I can share the CSE credentials with anyone who wants to add more. | 20:07 |
| annegentle | and that's all for action items. | 20:07 |
| annegentle | #topic Nova config flags reviews | 20:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nova config flags reviews" | 20:07 | |
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| annegentle | This one went through on trunk: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/8182/ but is still "Review in Progress" | 20:08 |
| annegentle | and I'm not sure why. CI team thinks we never did +2 and +1 | 20:08 |
| annegentle | Same with https://review.openstack.org/#/c/8383/. | 20:08 |
| annegentle | Noting it here because there used to be redundant flag listings and those should've cleared them out. | 20:09 |
| annegentle | I guess I'll just Review to get those through. | 20:09 |
| annegentle | #topic Landing page changes | 20:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Landing page changes" | 20:10 | |
| annegentle | Switched from /trunk to /essex yesterday and sent a Mailing List post out. Seems well-received and I had gotten plenty of requests for it. :) | 20:10 |
| annegentle | So, while last meeting we said we'd wait for divergence between essex and folsom, there was enough uprising requests that I did it at the month mark. | 20:10 |
| annegentle | Hope that's okay with everyone. | 20:10 |
| annegentle | Ah, benevolent dictatorship. | 20:10 |
| annegentle | I'd like to discuss whether to continue to post the Starter Guide on the landing page - it seems redundant now. I really appreciate the work that goes into it. But it's not an "official" doc. | 20:11 |
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| annegentle | The Starter Guide is the Ubuntu 12.04 document from CSS OSS. | 20:11 |
| annegentle | I can ask them to rebrand it as "built for OpenStack" with the CSS OSS logo so that perceptions of it's "officialness" are clear. | 20:12 |
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| annegentle | #action annegentle to investigate Starter Guide repurposing | 20:13 |
| jsavak | \o | 20:14 |
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| annegentle | hey jsavak | 20:14 |
| jsavak | hiya! | 20:14 |
| annegentle | jsavak: thought your Monday was a wash for you, thanks for joining! | 20:14 |
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| jsavak | meeting ended early.Don't tell anyone | 20:14 |
| annegentle | one last thought on the landing page switch - I can't figure out why the /essex guides PDF links point to -trunk.pdf file names. | 20:15 |
| annegentle | I need to log a bug about it cuz I'm stumped… the pom.xml should be substituting release.name | 20:15 |
| annegentle | dwcramer: I'll probably ask you about it after this meeting | 20:15 |
| annegentle | any questions on the landing page? | 20:16 |
| annegentle | #topic New high availability guide draft | 20:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New high availability guide draft" | 20:16 | |
| annegentle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/8139/ | 20:16 |
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| annegentle | Right now it's just an introduction, he has added Pacemaker info into additional reviews set to "Work in Progress" | 20:17 |
| annegentle | Please review and comment - I think it'll be a good addition. | 20:17 |
| wabat | I agree | 20:17 |
| annegentle | wabat: you'd be a good reviewer for that guide | 20:17 |
| wabat | I'll probably end up using the guide as well | 20:17 |
| annegentle | I'm also hoping it'll help readers understand the "production" guides and the "starter" guides differences. | 20:18 |
| * annegentle may be asking too much | 20:18 | |
| annegentle | any questions on HA guide? | 20:18 |
| annegentle | #topic Blueprints status | 20:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Blueprints status" | 20:18 | |
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| annegentle | so… operations manual | 20:19 |
| annegentle | Notes are at http://etherpad.openstack.org/EssexOperationsGuide | 20:19 |
| annegentle | #link http://etherpad.openstack.org/EssexOperationsGuide | 20:19 |
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| annegentle | There are troubleshooting links we can pull from | 20:20 |
| annegentle | #link http://bit.ly/ostsg | 20:20 |
| annegentle | #link http://networkstatic.net/2012/05/12/troubleshooting-common-openstack-errors/ | 20:20 |
| annegentle | but yes these are just bits and pieces. | 20:20 |
| annegentle | Still hoping to get at least an Operators Quick Start and Operations Management Practices and Day-to-Day Operations | 20:21 |
| annegentle | in time for Folsom | 20:21 |
| annegentle | I have shopped the outline around and folks like it | 20:21 |
| annegentle | so really it's "just" filling in between :) | 20:21 |
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| annegentle | the HA guide should help with some of it | 20:21 |
| annegentle | any questions? comments? anyone progressing on it? | 20:22 |
| wabat | I'm trying to get the day to day stuff going. I was hoping to get involved in the Trystack admin group but no movement on that yet. | 20:22 |
| annegentle | wabat: great - TryStack had a "pregnant" pause when Nati became a dad last week I think :) | 20:23 |
| annegentle | wabat: so definitely keep asking how you can get involved and I'll poke at them too | 20:24 |
| annegentle | wabat: also jaypipes started a new job | 20:24 |
| annegentle | Trystack leads me to another blueprint, a "Deployment template" | 20:24 |
| annegentle | I have talked to a wide variety of people on "what is the purpose of this document" and come up with different answers :) | 20:25 |
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| annegentle | one answer is "document what TryStack does so others can understand a public deployment" the other is "configuration is still too wide and broad what do I do?" | 20:25 |
| annegentle | So, a good discussion here is - which do you think the "deployment template" should do? | 20:25 |
| jsavak | common out of the box general settings & env variable guide? | 20:26 |
| annegentle | jsavak: yeah, that's the original thought, document a couple of deployments | 20:27 |
| annegentle | jsavak: no one "wants" out of the box :) | 20:27 |
| annegentle | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/RealDeployments | 20:27 |
| jsavak | yup | 20:27 |
| annegentle | I'm trying to scope this narrowly enough to get done but broadly enough to be useful | 20:28 |
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| annegentle | "get done" - get something done | 20:28 |
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| annegentle | rather, "real config info" beyond nova flags | 20:29 |
| annegentle | I also hear, "Why" is more generally wanted than "What" | 20:29 |
| annegentle | So, I'll keep working on this blueprint, but am still trying to define what doc could be useful. My sense right now is that TryStack needs to get updated to Essex, then we'll have better "why" to document. | 20:31 |
| annegentle | third blueprint, API "try-it-out" | 20:31 |
| annegentle | I did not end up hiring an intern here at Rackspace for the summer. Sadness. | 20:31 |
| annegentle | Four candidates ended up taking other positions not-in-Austin. | 20:31 |
| annegentle | But, I do have basic psuedocode and I think here also I want to wait on TryStack to upgrade to Essex. | 20:32 |
| annegentle | last blueprint, "metadata in docs" - jsavak let's talk tomorrow about how to work that into a schedule | 20:32 |
| jsavak | sure | 20:33 |
| annegentle | cool | 20:33 |
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| annegentle | ok, last topic | 20:33 |
| annegentle | #topic Doc tools updates | 20:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Doc tools updates" | 20:33 | |
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| annegentle | #info Testing begins on Chinese language documents working with cloud doc tools maven plugin | 20:33 |
| annegentle | Setting language to zh should work in PDF builds now. | 20:34 |
| annegentle | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/980580 | 20:34 |
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| uvirtbot | annegentle: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: HTTP Error 503: Service Unavailable | 20:34 |
| annegentle | send us your chinese docbook source so we can test | 20:34 |
| chrisfer | oh, cool | 20:34 |
| annegentle | the person who logged the bug can hopefully test against her source | 20:34 |
| annegentle | chrisfer: yeah! | 20:35 |
| chrisfer | I'll let Daisy know | 20:35 |
| annegentle | chrisfer: hopefully Daisy got notification on that bug update | 20:35 |
| annegentle | chrisfer: better yet, thanks! | 20:35 |
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| annegentle | another good trick - use <?sbr?> processing instruction for a break in a table cell | 20:35 |
| annegentle | that was helpful for all the nova.conf options listings | 20:36 |
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| annegentle | and then I also learned that Jenkins can't access the plugin builds with -SNAPSHOT for some reason, so I back ported fixes to the stable/diablo branch so Jenkins can build again | 20:36 |
| annegentle | not that diablo is getting updated all that often, but it's a good best practice going forward. | 20:37 |
| annegentle | the latest clouddoctools plugin version is 1.3.1, and you can test against 1.4.0-SNAPSHOT | 20:37 |
| annegentle | any questions on the doc tools? | 20:37 |
| chrisfer | annegentle: I sent her a note - she is in class until Weds I think, but maybe someone on the team can test | 20:37 |
| annegentle | chrisfer: great, thanks | 20:37 |
| annegentle | #topic Open discussion | 20:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion" | 20:38 | |
| annegentle | Anything else on your minds? | 20:38 |
| annegentle | (well, that's doc-related) | 20:38 |
| ijw | I had a question on api.openstack.org | 20:38 |
| annegentle | ijw: sure, go ahead | 20:38 |
| ijw | It's a bit of an open question, so bear with me | 20:39 |
| annegentle | no worries | 20:39 |
| ijw | Is it going to turn into a definitive description of the API, or is it just supposed to be some helpful ideas without being comprehensive? | 20:39 |
| annegentle | ijw: I'd like it to document trystack.org, an actual implementation. | 20:40 |
| annegentle | ijw: it's hard to define comprehensive… what would that look like to you? | 20:40 |
| ijw | The reason I ask is that at the moment it's a bit sketchy when it comes to the posted information. It lists a set of parameters, and then a chunk of JSON/XML that you can post. Firstly, I'm not quite sure how the two relate. And secondly, it's not clear if the JSON lists *all* of the possible options that can be used, or whether it just lists one valid set of options. | 20:41 |
| annegentle | ijw: for certain the JSON is just one valid set of options… hm, how could the examples be expanded to show more examples? | 20:42 |
| annegentle | ijw: ideally the JSON/XML are all working samples - they should be as far as I know. Log bugs if they're not. | 20:42 |
| annegentle | ijw: I think a "try it out" implementation might help with getting more possible options - let the user pull more switches, you know? | 20:43 |
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| ijw | Well, it'd be nice if there was a go-to definitive reference for what the API is, you see - I wasn't sure if the api.openstack.org site was going to be that. And to be a full document in that sense it has to list all of the available knobs and switches that are there and what they can be set to. | 20:43 |
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| annegentle | ijw: I'd like it to be the go-to. then we move the "dev guides" into more developer guide mode, instead of "specs" | 20:44 |
| annegentle | ijw: want reality :) | 20:44 |
| ijw | Yeah, do you want all of reality? ;) | 20:44 |
| annegentle | ijw: heh, not really if I only want to limit the scope to TryStack :) | 20:45 |
| ijw | Cos I think we need all of reality, somewhere, eventually. | 20:45 |
| annegentle | ijw: there's still talk of an extensions registry too, which would be more of reality | 20:45 |
| annegentle | ijw: but yes, we NEED reality :) | 20:45 |
| annegentle | ijw: thanks for asking | 20:46 |
| chrisfer | I think I can see ijw's point | 20:46 |
| chrisfer | shouldn't the various fields be fully documented? | 20:46 |
| ijw | Indeed, but even docs on the base API would be really helpful. I'm speaking from a hacking the source perspective here, but the API is where developers and app designers meet and so it would be a good idea to have something that documents it extensively. | 20:46 |
| ijw | chrisfer: absolutely, that's the sort of thing I'm talking | 20:46 |
| chrisfer | eg. v1.1/{tenant_id}/servers/detail status(optional) | 20:47 |
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| chrisfer | shouldn't it provide the valid range of values that may be set? | 20:47 |
| ijw | And perhaps explain what those values mean... | 20:47 |
| chrisfer | that makes sense then | 20:47 |
| chrisfer | exactly | 20:47 |
| ijw | With apologies, cos that's obviously a lot of work ;) | 20:48 |
| annegentle | agree - how do we track what's still missing? | 20:48 |
| chrisfer | and if there are constraints (e.g. for date format) then be explicit | 20:48 |
| ijw | Well, perhaps the best way to start would be to take a simple GET and a simple-ish POST and document them extensively to see how the whole thing would look. | 20:48 |
| ijw | (Emphasis on simple, because e.g. creating a server has a lot of knobs you can twiddle) | 20:49 |
| annegentle | #link http://heckj.github.com/api-site-mock/ | 20:49 |
| annegentle | we started with the above site mockup | 20:49 |
| annegentle | I wonder if we can mock up further? | 20:49 |
| annegentle | writerDiane may have more details as well | 20:50 |
| writerDiane | yes, i'm working on a content model for api refs | 20:50 |
| writerDiane | api ref pages | 20:50 |
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| annegentle | ijw: could writerDiane send you a mockup of the details for "create server" to see if it covers what you're seeking? | 20:50 |
| annegentle | ijw: your input is super valuable | 20:51 |
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| ijw | Yeah, fine with me | 20:51 |
| writerDiane | let me know where to send - i can send it to you with mockup for create server | 20:51 |
| annegentle | ok, great | 20:51 |
| annegentle | #action writerDiane to send mockup to ijw | 20:51 |
| chrisfer | writerDiane: this mock-up looks about right | 20:51 |
| annegentle | chrisfer: it's pretty low-detail though :) and no content reall | 20:52 |
| annegentle | really | 20:52 |
| chrisfer | I would again suggest that where applicable, that valid value ranges (or enums) be made explicit in the api doc | 20:52 |
| annegentle | chrisfer: ok, that would be a good addition | 20:52 |
| chrisfer | well, some include the narrative, which is goodness | 20:52 |
| annegentle | ok, any other discussion? | 20:53 |
| chrisfer | think each should be accompanied by a narrative that 'splains what it is for, etc | 20:53 |
| ijw | Parameters need describing by where they go, too - some are querystring, some in JSON, some in the URL path... | 20:53 |
| annegentle | chrisfer: so I think that the narrative belongs in a "Dev Guide" - not on a reference listing page, right? | 20:53 |
| annegentle | short content verses long content | 20:54 |
| ijw | But yeah, all detail, and all for later. | 20:54 |
| writerDiane | yes, i'd say the narrative belongs in dev guide | 20:54 |
| writerDiane | my api template covers all that - query parameters, header parms, etc - | 20:54 |
| ijw | annegentle, writerDiane: would be nice if the actual bits of information lived in one place and the different guides were generated from it, perhaps; I've no idea if we can do that... | 20:55 |
| annegentle | ijw: that's the plan - WADL generates api.openstack.org, then we put the WADL in the dev guide too so it's all one source of truth. So glad you agree. :) | 20:56 |
| ijw | I've done this sort of stuff before. There's nothing quite so horrifying as keeping umpteen Word documents in sync. ;) | 20:56 |
| annegentle | ijw: bleeerrrrg. | 20:56 |
| annegentle | :) | 20:56 |
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| annegentle | ok, I'll wrap it up now - thanks all for coming | 20:57 |
| annegentle | #endmeeting | 20:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meeting channel. See http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings for schedule and http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/ for meeting logs" | 20:57 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Jun 11 20:57:38 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:57 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-11-20.03.html | 20:57 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-11-20.03.txt | 20:57 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-11-20.03.log.html | 20:57 |
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| annegentle | all yours, danwent | 20:58 |
| danwent | annegentle: thanks :) | 20:58 |
| annegentle | :) | 20:58 |
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| danwent | hi folks | 21:00 |
| PotHix | o/ | 21:00 |
| Salv-orlando | Hi! | 21:00 |
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| markvoelker | 0/ | 21:00 |
| morellon | \o/ | 21:00 |
| rkukura | o/ | 21:00 |
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| s0mik | o/ | 21:01 |
| danwent | ok, let's get this started | 21:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | hi | 21:01 |
| danwent | #startmeeting | 21:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Jun 11 21:01:10 2012 UTC. The chair is danwent. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:01 |
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| gongys | hello | 21:01 |
| arosen | hi | 21:01 |
| garyk | hi | 21:01 |
| danwent | #info http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/Meetings | 21:01 |
| ncode | o/ | 21:01 |
| danwent | wow, big crowd today. seems like the new time is working out :) | 21:01 |
| danwent | #topic folsom-2 deliverable | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "folsom-2 deliverable" | 21:01 | |
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| danwent | #info folsom-2 branch date is now 3 weeks out… coming up quickly if you consider the review lags we've been dealing with lately | 21:02 |
| danwent | #info welcome garyk and gongys as core devs by the way… that should help with review lags :) | 21:02 |
| * markvoelker applauds | 21:03 | |
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| danwent | #info Our main focus for F-2 work is still getting API v2 fully merged in. | 21:03 |
| danwent | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/8039/ | 21:03 |
| danwent | our current plan is to get jkoelker_'s branch merged in, depsite some gaps | 21:03 |
| danwent | this will let more people work on top of filling those gaps. | 21:04 |
| gongys | Yes | 21:04 |
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| danwent | I have a branch already stacked on there for API validation and related improvements: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/8366/ | 21:04 |
| danwent | and gongys has been bravely developing client + CLI code against a not entirely solid spec: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/7596/ | 21:05 |
| danwent | we're stil keeping the basic wiki page up to date: http://wiki.openstack.org/QuantumV2APIIntro | 21:05 |
| danwent | Plan is that all remaining API work should be filed as bugs against F-2: https://launchpad.net/quantum/+milestone/folsom-2 | 21:06 |
| danwent | garyk has already volunteered to pick up several of the items, thanks! | 21:06 |
| danwent | any questions concerns there? | 21:06 |
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| danwent | kevin mitchell from rackspace is working on Authz: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/+spec/authorization-support-for-quantum | 21:07 |
| danwent | he seems to have good cycles to work on that, so I'm comfortable with progress there. | 21:07 |
| danwent | Is arvind here? | 21:07 |
| danwent | markvoelker: ? | 21:08 |
| danwent | #info arvind from cisco is working on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/+spec/quantum-horizon | 21:08 |
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| danwent | we had a call late last week to scope the first deliverable for F-2. | 21:08 |
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| danwent | #info horizin on F-2 will focus on basic network creation/deletion, and being able to spin up VMs on a particular network. | 21:09 |
| danwent | errr… horizon | 21:09 |
| markvoelker | He was around today, but I'm currently at home so can't yell over the cubical wall at him =) | 21:09 |
| danwent | markvoelker: that's ok, just yell louder | 21:09 |
| danwent | rkukura: any updates on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/+spec/provider-networks ? | 21:09 |
| danwent | rkukura: from emails to the list it seems like you're progressing? | 21:10 |
| * markvoelker just frightened his 7 month old whilst yelling for Arvin's | 21:10 | |
| rkukura | yes, specifying vlans works with linuxbridge | 21:10 |
| rkukura | Can I get away with ignoring XML until we have proper support for extensibility? | 21:11 |
| danwent | rkukura: hrmmm… have we gotten anyone to confirm that there's no good way to do this with XML? | 21:11 |
| danwent | I personally have a bias against XML in general... | 21:11 |
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| danwent | but if we're going to say we support it, it seems odd that we can't do request extensions with it. | 21:12 |
| rkukura | I was chatting with Mark McLoughlin about it today | 21:12 |
| danwent | was that Salv-orlando running away from an API question? :P | 21:12 |
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| s0mik | rkukura: Jorge from Rax should be the authority on that | 21:12 |
| danwent | s0mik: I agree. I've tried to loop him into the threads. We should bug him more. | 21:13 |
| rkukura | Seems we need either the template stuff from nova. | 21:13 |
| danwent | rkukura: ok, so there's extra code in nova that isn't in quantum that let's them support it in nova? | 21:13 |
| rkukura | nova has diverged from the extension framework in quantum/openstack-common/melange | 21:13 |
| danwent | ah, how i wish all of this API code was just a openstack-common lib :) | 21:14 |
| rkukura | I can write a BP | 21:14 |
| s0mik | rkukura: I think the quantum framework was based on nova framework, so hope this becomes common soon | 21:14 |
| garyk | openstack-common - the answer to all our problems | 21:14 |
| danwent | rkukura: BP for what exactly? | 21:14 |
| danwent | garyk: well, in some cases, yes | 21:15 |
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| rkukura | According to markmc, nova has gone in a different direction than whats in common | 21:15 |
| rkukura | BP for making XML extensible in quantum | 21:15 |
| danwent | during the v2 api stuff, I was really saddened by how much code was written that had nothing to do with quantum specifically. | 21:15 |
| danwent | rkukura: does common already have API extension framework? | 21:16 |
| danwent | last I heard they were just talking about it. | 21:16 |
| rkukura | yes, and it looks like quantum's is based on it | 21:16 |
| rkukura | but nova has abandoned it | 21:16 |
| danwent | rkukura: ok, and there's no way to do request extensions in the openstack-common extension framework either, i assume? | 21:17 |
| rkukura | markmc says: "but IMHO, the openstack-common version should just be deleted" | 21:17 |
| rkukura | request extensions for json work. xml is the issue | 21:17 |
| danwent | rkukura: yes, understood. | 21:17 |
| rkukura | the openstack-common version does have some xml support thats missing in quantum | 21:18 |
| danwent | Ok, so you think the right think it so do JSON only for now, and port the XML stuff over from nova? Kind of hurts, as it seems like any porting effort should be done toward getting the stuff working on a common lib. | 21:18 |
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| danwent | ah, misunderstood you, sorry | 21:18 |
| danwent | so if we port over to openstack-common, request extensions can work with XML? | 21:19 |
| rkukura | long term we should have a common extension framework | 21:19 |
| danwent | rkukura: definitely agree. | 21:19 |
| ijw | rkukura: any idea how far nova have diverged? | 21:19 |
| rkukura | ijw: significantly | 21:19 |
| danwent | Ok, this sounds like a longer conversation. | 21:19 |
| rkukura | The nova approach now uses decorators, plus templates for xml | 21:20 |
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| danwent | so short-term call is whether to (a) use request extension and support JSON only until extension framework changes or (b) implement as resource extension? | 21:20 |
| danwent | rkukura: ? | 21:21 |
| rkukura | danwent: yes, but still not sure xml would work right with resource extension - optional data seems to be a problem | 21:21 |
| rkukura | the nova template approach leaves out the element for missing data | 21:22 |
| danwent | Ok, let's take this to the list. | 21:22 |
| danwent | rkukura: is this already summarized in an email to the list, or should you write one? | 21:22 |
| rkukura | I've been posting as I learn | 21:23 |
| danwent | let's be sure to include the main openstack list, as many of the openstack API experts probably aren't on netstack. | 21:23 |
| rkukura | I'll summarize the issues/questions | 21:23 |
| danwent | rkukura: thanks | 21:23 |
| danwent | #todo rkukura send email summarizing decision points around provider networks bp and request extensions with XML | 21:24 |
| danwent | ok, now onto the two BPs that concern me the most for F-2 :) | 21:24 |
| danwent | #info DHCP BP: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/+spec/quantum-dhcp | 21:24 |
| danwent | carlp: here? | 21:24 |
| jkoelker | sorry just catching up, but i agree with mark the openstack-common wsgi stuff should be tossed | 21:25 |
| danwent | jkoelker: ok, good to know. too bad though, as each project seems to be inventing their own wheels :) | 21:25 |
| jkoelker | its the way of our people ;) | 21:25 |
| danwent | but if its not done right, no point in porting over to it. | 21:25 |
| danwent | :) | 21:25 |
| danwent | I got an email from mark mcclain at dreamhost saying that they have some internal designs for the dhcp work, but it makes me nervous not to have seen anything yet. | 21:26 |
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| PotHix | we want to help, but I don't know how yet | 21:27 |
| danwent | they say DHCP work in on target for F-2 though, so hopefully that's good news. I still think we'll probably need people to help out toward the end. | 21:27 |
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| oubiwann | danwent: he's getting ready to work on this in the next few weeks | 21:27 |
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| danwent | PotHix: a while back I posted some thoughts on a potential design. I'd like to see some discussion around designs, that way more people can potentially pitch in and bite off certain pieces. | 21:28 |
| oubiwann | danwent: I thought he was waiting on the IPAM stuff to land? | 21:28 |
| oubiwann | (mark, that is) | 21:28 |
| gongys | I wan to know how the dhcp server will run in quantum? on quantum sever side or agent? | 21:28 |
| danwent | oubiwann: thanks. Just that there's 3 weeks left. | 21:28 |
| PotHix | danwent: where can I find your thoughts about it? | 21:28 |
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| danwent | oubiwann: we have a spec and code that's been in review for a while, so it should definitely be sufficient to make a design. | 21:28 |
| PotHix | I just have that e-mails | 21:29 |
| danwent | oubiwann: if there's missing info that he's waiting on, please have him raise that immediately. | 21:29 |
| PotHix | e-mail* | 21:29 |
| danwent | gongys: that's part of why we need some discussion of the design. I was guessing that there would be agent code that could basicaly query quantum API for IP mac bindings, and "plug" dnsmasq interfaces into virtual switches, similar to what nova-network does today. | 21:30 |
| danwent | that at least would be the design that allows us to leverage the most existing code from nova-network. | 21:31 |
| danwent | PotHix: yeah, just that email. I can resend with a wider audience. Just trying to get the conversation started on this. | 21:31 |
| garyk | danwent: can you please send to the list | 21:31 |
| danwent | #todo: danwent resent email about simple DHCP design to ML | 21:31 |
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| danwent | ok, hopefully we can get some more attention focused on DHCP this in the next week. | 21:32 |
| PotHix | Cool. I'll send some thoughts. | 21:32 |
| danwent | In another bit of bad news, I heard tr3buchet is not going to be able to work on Nova + Quantum integration in F-2: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/quantum/+spec/improved-nova-quantum-integration | 21:33 |
| danwent | he has a branch that has a lot of the changes already, though it uses the quantum v1.1 and melange APIs, rather than the quantum v2 API. | 21:33 |
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| danwent | so we'll need to find someone who can work on this for F-2 | 21:34 |
| gongys | This bp will rely on IPAM merged in | 21:34 |
| danwent | gongys: the new Quantum v2 API merges IPAM into Quantum. | 21:34 |
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| danwent | gongys: or am I misunderstanding you? | 21:34 |
| gongys | dan: no. you are right. | 21:35 |
| PotHix | A lot of changes depending on the v2 | 21:35 |
| PotHix | But itś | 21:35 |
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| PotHix | But it is almost finished, right? | 21:35 |
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| danwent | PotHix: agreed, that's why our primary focus needs to be on getting that merged. Main Api-v2 code should go in today, assuming we get a people to sign off on jkoelker recent tweaks to the branch | 21:36 |
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| danwent | Ok, so I have a lot of familiarity with the nova + quantum integration, and can help anyone able to work on that. | 21:36 |
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| danwent | let me know. this work is very fundemental to being able to see the benefits from the v2 API, so it definitely needs to be done in F-2. | 21:37 |
| danwent | Ok, any other F-2 topics? | 21:37 |
| garyk | danwent: common config would be nice if it could be reviewed | 21:38 |
| danwent | overall, we're getting a lot of great work done, we just have very ambitious goals :) | 21:38 |
| danwent | garyk: good point. | 21:38 |
| PotHix | danwent: ncode is working on iptables_manager and agents | 21:38 |
| danwent | #info: need review love for common-cfg bp: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/8101/ | 21:38 |
| PotHix | we don't have to include dependencies to it | 21:38 |
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| danwent | PotHix: is this still the primary review: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/7762/ ? | 21:39 |
| danwent | we need to get that in… its been under review for a while. | 21:39 |
| gongys | garyk: I think we need put the api v2.0 in first, and then the common config. | 21:39 |
| danwent | looks like we're close | 21:39 |
| PotHix | danwent: yes | 21:39 |
| garyk | ok | 21:39 |
| danwent | gongys: API v2 stuff should really be top priority for everyone, as there are so many dependencies. | 21:40 |
| danwent | we all need to pitch in :) | 21:40 |
| danwent | #topic community topics | 21:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "community topics" | 21:40 | |
| danwent | oh no, did salvatore drop off? | 21:41 |
| danwent | #info wiki page for core devs to sign up for review days: http://wiki.openstack.org/Quantum/ReviewDays | 21:41 |
| PotHix | danwent: we're waiting the iptables_manager merge to work on the generic_firewall | 21:42 |
| danwent | all core devs should be signed up for a day per week. double-booking is ok, we'll just expect extra reviewing horsepower those days. | 21:42 |
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| danwent | PotHix: yes, makes sense. | 21:42 |
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| danwent | feel free to ping the "active" core devs about reviews on their days. | 21:43 |
| danwent | recall that we're expecting 2-3 hours MINIMUM of reviews from a core dev per week. If you're sticking to the minimum, those hours should be focused on your review day. You should focus your review energies on the reviews that are most critical to the community (e.g., those blocking a lot of work, or ranked highly on launchpad) | 21:44 |
| danwent | as part of my review day, I'll review the reviews to make sure review days are working. | 21:45 |
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| danwent | :) | 21:45 |
| danwent | any questions/comments/concerns? | 21:45 |
| danwent | also, feel free to CC on emails you send to the reviewers requesting reviews on their review days. | 21:45 |
| danwent | salv-orlando: there you are! | 21:45 |
| salv-orlando | here I am! | 21:46 |
| danwent | we were just talking about review days | 21:46 |
| salv-orlando | I got disconnected | 21:46 |
| danwent | "conveniently" :P | 21:46 |
| danwent | salv-orlando: anything you'd like to say on review days? | 21:46 |
| salv-orlando | I am looking at the wiki page. Slots look pretty full which is great | 21:47 |
| salv-orlando | And I see GaryK has volunteered for doing reviews on Sundays :) | 21:47 |
| danwent | salv-orlando: yes, though we have a good number of people not signed up yet. I mentioned that double-booking is ok, we'll have expect even more reviews :) | 21:47 |
| garyk | salv-orlando - sunday is a work day and friday is weekend :) | 21:48 |
| danwent | salv-orlando: his monday | 21:48 |
| danwent | #topic open discussion | 21:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion" | 21:48 | |
| salv-orlando | garyk: I didn't know you were in Israel, sorry :) | 21:48 |
| danwent | ok, any other items we need to discuss | 21:48 |
| ncode | danwent: I'd like to know about the agents | 21:48 |
| danwent | ncode: what about them? | 21:48 |
| garyk | ncode: i am working on scalable agents | 21:49 |
| ncode | they will use the common from quantum or will get a new one? | 21:49 |
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| garyk | ncode: the rpc code is taken from openstack comon (if this is your question) | 21:49 |
| ncode | is that | 21:49 |
| danwent | ncode: current model is that quantum-server and quantum-agents both have access to the same quantum python libraries. | 21:50 |
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| danwent | that is, there's not a separate common for agents vs. server plugin code. | 21:50 |
| ncode | I will move some code to there as gongys said | 21:50 |
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| danwent | ncode: yes, anything that might be shared across agents should go in quantum/agent/* | 21:50 |
| danwent | like the ovs_lib.py example, and the iptables manager code. | 21:51 |
| PotHix | danwent: Will we have the same dependencies on agents and server? | 21:51 |
| ncode | PotHix: is that my point :D | 21:51 |
| ncode | s/is that/that is/ | 21:51 |
| danwent | PotHix: by dependencies, do you mean package dependencies, like apt-get? | 21:52 |
| ncode | more like library danwent, can be package | 21:52 |
| danwent | distros can and probably will have different depenedencies for the two, though I agree that our current model does not make it easy for them to determine which is which. | 21:52 |
| danwent | ncode: so you mean like a non-standard python library? | 21:53 |
| ncode | danwent: package as you said, but is hard to have some things from quantum server inside XS | 21:54 |
| danwent | ncode: we can keep talking about this, but let's wrap up the official meeting. | 21:54 |
| ncode | oks | 21:54 |
| danwent | anything else urgent that we need to discuss before wrapping up? | 21:54 |
| danwent | ok, thanks folks. stay on the channel if you want to keep talking about agent dependencies | 21:55 |
| danwent | #endmeeting | 21:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meeting channel. See http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings for schedule and http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/ for meeting logs" | 21:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Jun 11 21:55:10 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 21:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-11-21.01.html | 21:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-11-21.01.txt | 21:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack-meeting/2012/openstack-meeting.2012-06-11-21.01.log.html | 21:55 |
| salv-orlando | bye, have a good one! | 21:55 |
| danwent | have a good rest of the week. please help get the api v2 stuff over the hump and in :) | 21:55 |
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| garyk | thanks! good night | 21:56 |
| danwent | ncode: i think this is a good discussion. currently, plugin specify their dependencies as part of their documentation, which is what a packager would look at. | 21:56 |
| danwent | I think it would commonly make sense for a plugin to specify differences in their dependencies between agent code and plugin code that runs as part of the main quantum server. | 21:56 |
| danwent | is there a specific example that you're dealing with? | 21:57 |
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| gongys | ncode: I think your are talking about to use the execute() from openstack common, right? | 21:57 |
| ncode | not from core | 21:57 |
| ncode | gongys: the execute and also run_cmd now | 21:57 |
| ncode | but some deps from server | 21:57 |
| ncode | will be hard to port to a old linux or XS | 21:58 |
| ncode | but if you split the agent and server common | 21:58 |
| ncode | will make it easy | 21:58 |
| salv-orlando | If I might chime in this discussion I'd say that I see ncode's concern | 21:58 |
| ncode | agent will use way less code and libs than server | 21:59 |
| danwent | ncode: i agree that we should structure common code in a way that makes it easy for agent code to pull in just what it needs, without pulling in a lot more dependencies | 21:59 |
| salv-orlando | danwent: I agree with you, the agent should bring only what it actually needs. | 22:00 |
| danwent | so if there's something that an agent is likely to need, we shouldn't have it in the same module of something that imports a bunch of libs that an agent doesn't need. | 22:00 |
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| rkukura | Isn't quantum/openstack/common just a stopgap until the code is out of incubation? | 22:00 |
| danwent | hey guys, I need to run to a meeting. | 22:00 |
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| salv-orlando | rkukura: what do you mean by stopgap? | 22:01 |
| danwent | rkukura: yes, eventually it will be its own lib… | 22:01 |
| salv-orlando | danwent: see you tomorrow! | 22:01 |
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| rkukura | Eventually this code will be packages in a proper openstack-common package | 22:01 |
| danwent | i see your point. do we need to be able to import only a subset of openstack-common? | 22:01 |
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| PotHix | Something like that | 22:01 |
| danwent | i think each different chunk of openstack common would be package separately though, if they do it right. | 22:01 |
| rkukura | or do we only depend on what we actually use? | 22:01 |
| rkukura | I meant do we only pull in the dependencies of the chunks we actually use? | 22:02 |
| ncode | danwent: if the common stay clean it will not be a problem | 22:03 |
| salv-orlando | as danwent is noticing whether quantum-agent can use or not a subset of openstack-common probably depends on how it's packaged | 22:03 |
| danwent | ncode: sorry, got to run. | 22:03 |
| ncode | danwent: oks | 22:03 |
| danwent | feel free to raise this on the list. | 22:03 |
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| rkukura | This also might be a good one for the openstack list to get wider input. | 22:03 |
| PotHix | salv-orlando: you're right, but could we manage it? | 22:04 |
| salv-orlando | anyway, I'd say we should probably have two separate discussion on os-common packaging for quantum-agent and communication with hypervisors such as xs | 22:04 |
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| salv-orlando | PotHix: if we finda dev with spare cycles, I guess we can :) | 22:04 |
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| PotHix | salv-orlando: But each distro will may package it differently, right? | 22:05 |
| salv-orlando | I am not a great fan of the idea of forking openstack-common or having our own libs, but I guess we can think of having an openstack-common-lite pkg | 22:05 |
| PotHix | salv-orlando: insteresting :) | 22:06 |
| salv-orlando | PotHix: it will. But we already have Fedora, Ubuntu, and Debian packagers among our devs | 22:06 |
| ncode | salv-orlando: this would be really good :D | 22:06 |
| rkukura | So what defines lite? Python 2.4 compatability? | 22:07 |
| salv-orlando | That's the though bit | 22:07 |
| PotHix | rkukura: Less dependencies as possible, I think. | 22:07 |
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| rkukura | Seems each component should have its own dependencies, and we should only use the components we need. | 22:08 |
| salv-orlando | From what I see, if we want to keep python 2.4 compatibility indefinetely, then we will probably unable to use large chunks of openstack-common | 22:08 |
| rkukura | garyk has been wrestling with this for the common-cfg work | 22:08 |
| rkukura | which is used by the common-rpc | 22:08 |
| rkukura | I really think we'd be best off having the agent run in a modern environment and remotely execute things in dom0 when needed | 22:09 |
| salv-orlando | what's the feedback? Can we keep this compatibility? Or do you reckon it's going to be unmanageable in the long run? | 22:09 |
| PotHix | rkukura: common-cfg should be on the "openstack-common-lite" IMHO | 22:09 |
| salv-orlando | rkukura: +infinity | 22:09 |
| salv-orlando | but this will imply that the agent is not anymore hypervisor agnostic, so it will be a bit more complex. Personally, I don't mind. | 22:10 |
| ncode | rkukura: This could be awesome, but is not the real world now :(. | 22:10 |
| ncode | rkukura: This will be hard to set up with the dhcp | 22:10 |
| rkukura | I've suggested before that we see if the root_wrapper hooks could be used for this | 22:11 |
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| salv-orlando | As an example I can cite the security groups driver. Both libvirt and xenapi backend use the same code, but when it comes to execute commands, libvirt does it locally, whether the xenapi driver invokes a dom0 extension | 22:11 |
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| salv-orlando | I think that if we adopt the same mechanism in Quantum we should be allright. And I reckon we can do that through the rootwrap | 22:12 |
| salv-orlando | And installing a dom0 extension is as easy as copying a python module to /etc/xapi.d/plugins | 22:12 |
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| salv-orlando | bye, have a good one! | 22:17 |
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| rkukura | node, salv-orlando: lost my connection for a bit. Any conclusion? | 22:19 |
| rkukura | s/node/ncode/ | 22:19 |
| ncode | rkukura: not now, I'll start this talk on ML | 22:20 |
| PotHix | +1 | 22:20 |
| PotHix | :) | 22:20 |
| rkukura | +1, but its been attempted before | 22:20 |
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