Monday, 2012-07-23

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markmcclaindanwent: I figured you'd be out partying20:58
markvoelker1AH, there he is...was wondering if danwent was too busy celebrating to meet today. =)  Congrats Dan.20:58
danwentthanks guys… yeah, been a little crazy around here.20:59
danwentkind of getting bombarded :)21:00
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* mestery thinks danwent should be buying beers at the next Summit.21:00
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openstackMeeting started Mon Jul 23 21:00:47 2012 UTC.  The chair is danwent. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.21:00
danwent#linkn agenda:
salv-orlandoHi all!21:01
danwentok, two weeks from when major branches should be proposed for F-321:01
danwentthree weeks total21:01
rkukurahi everyoone21:01
danwentstarting this week, i'll bug people who haven't posted full specs (including myself!) for major features21:02
gongysok. be ready to be bugged.21:02
danwenthere are working items:
danwentbiggest roadblock to clear out is agreement on rpc/notifications stuff for non-polling21:03
danwentwhich we'll talk about later in the meeting.21:03
danwentprogress on v2 plugins seems to be moving forward well, which is great.21:03
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danwentand we have people working on quantum + horizon, which is awesome.21:03
edgarmaganahi all21:03
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danwentin terms of key reviews....21:04
danwentprovider networks21:04
danwentlooks like  your new plugin stuff just got merged, congrats.21:04
rkukuraphase one should be ready for hopefully final review later today21:04
danwentyup, looks close21:04
rkukuraI would like feedback on my attribute authorization proposal21:04
danwentrkukura: yes, saw email.  haven't had a chance to read yet though.21:05
rkukuraIf its acceptable, I'll include that in this patch set21:05
zhuadlyes, CRD of network/subnet/ports in sys panel works now.21:05
salv-orlandoI think the provider networks were already in good shape, rebasing after changes in the ext framework should make its approval piece of cake21:05
danwentzhuadl: great.  i'm super excited about the progress on horizon21:05
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danwentzhuadl: do you want to send a link out the ML once you think its ready for testing?21:05
danwentzhuadl: by sys panel, do you mean for admin users but not regular users?21:06
zhuadlyes, the user panel is in progress.21:06
danwentzhuadl: ok, i will try to test sys panel, i think i was testing user panel before21:06
danwentI also wanted to call out the reviews for gongys's notifications stuff and garyk's rpc plugin work.21:06
danwentreviews are up for that, and I'd really like to wrap up any design discussion at the meeting today, as I don't want to slow you two down on making progress.21:07
garykdanwent: notifications21:07
gongysregarding notification, we have to thing about where to put our configuraiton items.21:08
garykdanwent, gongys: 2 issues here. 1. configuration files and what to notify21:08
danwentok, going a bit out of agenda order, but let's roll with it.21:08
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garykroll with the punches - dope on a rope :)21:08
danwentMoving on to Discussion Topics, we'll talk about the notifications / rpc21:09
garykconfiguration files - do we want to merge and have 1 file or stick with the current model.21:09
gongysI have no clear idea yet.21:09
danwentgaryk: it seemed strange that someone would have to configure the same rpc/message-queue stuff in multiple files, but I don't really have much experience with it, so I'd defer to others.21:09
danwenti'd like to identify all key blockers in this meeting though, as I feel like we're a bit stuck on a lot of items until we do.21:10
danwentgaryk: what is your opinion on this?21:10
garykdanwent: not sure if this is in multiple files. it is either in quantum.conf or xxx-plugin.ini.21:10
garykdanwent: i think that we need summit for this one. he wanted to keep these separate for the cisoc plugins21:11
danwentbut if we have multiple agents (e.g., dhcp, l3, plugin), woudln't they all need those values?21:11
SumitNaiksatami am here21:11
danwentgaryk: sorry, who is "he"?21:11
danwentSumitNaiksatam: ?21:11
garykdanwent: yes21:12
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SumitNaiksatamwe prefer that the plugin specific conf should be in a different conf file21:12
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garykdanwent: i guess you are right. with multiple plugins it does seem logical.21:12
danwentgaryk: are you talking about generally whether plugin config should be collapse, or specifically about rpc/message-queue config?  I was just talking about the latter.21:12
garykdanwent: the latter21:13
nati_uenoI'm implemanting multiple plugin, some configuration looks conflict because some plugin are suing same configuration key21:13
garykdanwent: it means that agents will need to load the qunatum.conf file. i am ok with this. it will make life simpler a bit21:13
PotHix+1 for different configurations per plugin21:13
danwentgaryk: that is my feeling as well, but i'm happy to defer to you on this.21:14
danwentthe most important thing is that we make a decision and move forward21:15
garykdanwent: i am good with the agent also reading quantum.conf. any objections?21:15
salv-orlandoI am probably naive, but I reckon that if plugins can be developed independently then they should have separate namespaces for configuration21:15
danwentgaryk: i'm happy with that.21:16
nati_ueno+1 for quantum.conf21:16
markmcclain+1 for different configs21:16
salv-orlandobut they should all be able to read quantum.conf as well21:16
gongysBut the notification and rpc will have many items about 20.21:16
gongyswe have to duplicate them in all of the plugin files.21:16
danwentgongys: yeah, that was my concern as well.21:17
nati_uenosalv-orlando : reading quantu.conf is simple21:17
garykgongys: if the agent reads quantum.conf + its own file then we are good. allcommon stuff in quantum.conf.21:17
danwentI think assuming that plugins can all read quantum.conf for non-plugin specific config if reasonable.21:17
zhuadlwe'd better figure out all the items and then see where to put in, I think.21:17
SumitNaiksatami agree21:17
garykin fact the common config enables us to read multiple files - this is done by the plugin on the service21:17
gongysto require plugin agent to read both quantum.conf and plugin.ini file will complicate the install.21:18
gongysof agent.21:18
salv-orlandoI agree. But I would pose the problem in terms of namespaces rather than one or multiple files. There's a common namespace every plugin and agent can access, and then there are plugin specific and agent specific namespaces.21:18
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salv-orlandoIf we then map namespaces to files, then that's a viable solution21:18
garykwhy shoukd it complicate things?21:18
danwentsalv-orlando: ok, that makes sense.21:18
PotHixNamespaces is a good idea IMHO21:18
gongysgaryk: We will have to say that copy the quantum.conf and plugin.ini to xx dir instead of current guide which just requires copy plugin.ini file.21:19
salv-orlandoPotHix: I have a suspect our current configuration infrastructure does not handle namespaces, but that's a technical issue we can handle offline.21:20
danwentpackaging should take care of that, no?21:20
nati_uenoIMO, table-name should use namespace also21:20
danwentok, we seem to have stumbled on a mine field here :)21:20
garykcan someone please elaborate on the namespacing?21:20
salv-orlandothat the moment when we typically decide to go back to the ML, but at least let's agree on a direction21:20
danwentgaryk: I consider you master of all things config, due to the work here.  can you sum this up and express your preference?21:21
salv-orlandogaryk: I apologise I should not have mentioned that word.21:21
rkukuraBy "namespaces" do we mean the "[DEFAULT]" and "[QUOTAS]" section headers in the current config file?21:21
danwentif we still have disagreement, let's agree about what we disagree on, and take it offline.21:21
zhuadlagree :-)21:22
garykdanwent: i can write a mail tomorrow and hopeully we can debate the issue21:22
danwentgaryk: ok, yeah, forgot how it is for you.21:22
salv-orlandoexactly. on the namespace thing let's say that from my point of view each file is a distinct namespace and [default] or [quotas] are subsections of a given namespace. So multiple files will work in model21:22
danwentif you feel you haven't had a chance to make your comments on config files known, please ping garyk21:22
danwent(via email, is probably best)21:22
danwentOk, garyk, so config file were one of the big issues.  what was the other?21:23
garyksalv-orlando: ok, that makes sense. one limitation is enforcing it21:23
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garykdanwent: items 2 is what exactly should be notified.21:23
salv-orlandogaryk: that's what I regard as the "technical" problem to tackle offline21:23
danwentgaryk: you mean whether the data can be passed in the notification?21:23
rkukuraThen config file names should be orthogonal to the section/variable naming or else we are locking in a very specific implementation.21:24
garykdanwent: i just need a few seconds to write...21:24
gongyscurrent notificaton event is create/update/delete of net/subnet/port.21:24
danwentgaryk: k, go ahead21:24
garykdanwent, gingys: these are notifications for billing etc. they should also include failures in the operations - for example an port not defined21:25
danwentgaryk: ah, ok, now i understand what you're getting at21:25
garykdantwent: these are not notifications to notify an agent that is should do something. does this make sense21:25
garykdanwent: we are mixing different features.21:26
zhuadlthese are kind of events?21:26
danwentgaryk: well, i'm still not convinced, but not enough that its worth slowing things down for F-3, so i'm putting my concerns aside.21:26
gongysGaryk: we have start/end for each event.21:27
danwentgaryk: on notification for failures, I think it depends on what your goals are for notifications.21:27
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garykdanwent: it should not slow things down at all. i am cool with gonys changes. just the minor issue of the error flows that need to be treated.21:27
garykgongys: what if there is a start and no end. how do you explain this?21:27
gongysso for port not defined can be expressed by no end ejected.21:28
gongysOur log.debug is used to log error or exceptions.21:29
garykgongys: i find it odd if someone is writing a monitoring application how it will treat cases when a create event has taken place and then no completion.21:29
danwentgaryk: i think the big question is whether this notification framework is intended for external monitoring/troubleshooting21:29
gongysmonitor should  care about end more than begin.21:30
danwentif so, i agree that errors probably should be included.  If the intial version is targeted more for things like billing, perhaps not.21:30
garykdanwent: i would assume billing21:30
nati_uen_Notification is for external monitoring/troubleshooting in Nova21:30
nati_uen_So quantum should be same21:30
danwentnati_uen_: do we know how nova notifications handle API errors?21:30
garykif it is troubleshooting then it mus include all paths21:30
nati_uen_In nova error is also included. It is configurable by flag value21:30
nati_uen_Yes I was working on that21:30
nati_uen_Nova's exception class is doing that21:31
danwentnati_uen_: good to know.21:31
shivhNot sure what is start and end of event. Events are instantanious, they dont have start and end. Tasks have start and end.21:31
danwentgongys: are you opposed to adding the notification capability in line with what nova does?21:32
danwent(i'll completely admit I have no familiarity with what nova does)21:32
danwentor perhaps someone else could work on it as a follow-up commit?21:32
gongysnot very. I am just thinking we already have LOg.debug, why we deal with troubleshooting by notification?21:32
zhuadlme too21:33
nati_uen_troubleshooting could be done by automatically21:33
danwentgongys: i had the same opinion to start.  I think the difference is whether it is an admin monitoring (in which case log files are enough), vs. an tenant application monitoring.21:33
nati_uen_But debug log has no json structure.21:34
danwentnati_uen_: that's a good point as well.21:34
gongysanyway,  not all of openstack have such agreement to use notification to do troubleshooting.21:34
gongysto Do the same role with LOG.debug()21:35
danwentok, so gongys, up to you as to whether you want to put it in the initial patch.  sounds like others would be happy to extend you patch once its merged.21:35
danwentdoes that seem like a reasonable compromise?  or are people fundementally opposed to using notifications for failures ala nova?21:35
nati_uen_LOG.debug is for development. We will disable it when we do real operation21:35
garyknati_uen_: i agree21:35
gongysYes. I agree. I will push my first initial patch.21:35
danwentok, sounds good.21:36
danwentgaryk: any other items you feel are blockers in this area?21:36
garykgongys: +121:36
nati_uen_gongys: +121:36
danwentwe're running a bit low on time, but I want to make sure we clear things out.21:36
garykdanwent: only the summer heat :).21:36
danwenthehe… no kidding.  I stay at the office b/c it has AC.21:36
danwentok, gongys, i believe you wanted to confirm that we are ok with names being non-unique and optional.21:37
danwentI think garyk has waived his concerns on this front21:37
danwentbut I wanted to confnirm21:37
danwentgaryk: ?21:38
danwent(maybe he fell asleep..  sounds like agreement to me! j/k)21:38
garykdanwent: i tried to follow all of the mails on the list. i am ok with whatever is decided21:38
danwentok, thanks.  gongys, i think you're cleared for take-off on that.21:39
danwentsalv-orlando: did you want to comment on terminology around the "public networks" stuff?21:39
garyki think that the plane has already landed - he just needs to park21:39
danwentthat's the last roadblock i wanted to clear today21:39
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gongysand what about the 'quantum net-create' command if we manke the network name optional too.21:39
garykdanwet: rpc21:39
garykgongys: it was a complement - you have alreday done the work. :)21:40
danwentsorry salv-orlando let's pause and wrap up gongys's question.21:40
gongysDo we remove the required argument too.21:40
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danwentgongys: yes, I think consistency across all entities makes sense.21:40
danwentgaryk: ok, let's circle back on rpc after salv-orlando talks about public networks.21:40
shivhIs name optional when creating a VM21:40
gongysok, I will allow 'quantum net-create' to create a network without any argument input.21:41
garykok, sorry21:41
danwentshivh: not sure if its optional its definitely not unique.21:41
shivhIf we want consisteny then it should match VM and Volume creation?21:41
danwentshivh: are names mandatory there?21:42
danwentI don't feel really strongly on mandatory vs. non-mandatory.21:42
danwenti think the point was just that once a name is not unique, its really just a label for display purposes, and thus if there's no need for a display name, it should be optional.21:42
salv-orlandoI have a corollary question on client-side behavior for the name parameter (bugu979527), but will happy to discuss in open discussion time.21:42
danwentsalv-orlando: yes please, as were already running late21:43
salv-orlandoI meant bug 979527 - meetbot do your job :)21:43
uvirtbotLaunchpad bug 979527 in python-quantumclient "quantum-client does not support network lookup by label" [Medium,Confirmed]
salv-orlandook, moving forward21:43
danwentsalv-orlando: want to comment on public networks stuff?21:43
salv-orlandothe terminology is probably the last blocker before I take the WIP out of the branch, which I believe contains a solution for addressing the attribute-authorization issues raised by rkukura. So I invite you to look at that branch.21:43
shivhI'll take a back seat on that unique/optional in network.21:43
danwentshivh: ok :)  please ping gongys, and if you can convince him, you win :)21:44
salv-orlandoThe concern we received on the proposed name, public, is that it is unclear to what public refers to21:44
salv-orlandoit might be confused with "the Internet" or "public access"21:44
danwentyeah, i think that's valid21:44
rkukurasalv-orlando: I'll followup on the list to clarify whether your mechanism can do what provider-network needs for authorization. If so, I'll use it, and maybe we can merge what I've got for now until yours is in.21:44
shivhI want to clarify when we talk about network type - what are we refering to?21:45
salv-orlandosimilarly, I personally believe network-type can be confused as well with the particular technology that network use.21:45
shivhpublic/pvt or stuff like L2/L3?21:45
danwentsee link to full specification21:45
salv-orlandorkukura: sounds cool. Happy to discuss online. Surely, by merging we'll be able to address a larger set of use cases21:46
danwentshivh: i agree though, a notion of "type" can be very ambiguous21:46
danwentok folks, 15 minutes left21:46
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nati_uen_I wanna discuss about multi-host implementation also21:46
danwentnati_uen_: please wait until open discussion for non-agenda items21:47
salv-orlandoSo, I think we need an attribute whose name characterize how it can be shared. Ance hence the name could be really "shared"21:47
nati_uen_danwent: Sorry I got it21:47
salv-orlandowith "ALL" or "None" (default) as a starter21:47
salv-orlandowith a model that we can then extend during the grizzly release cycle to allow more fine-grained control. Think about different levels of authorizations for owner, "group", and "world"21:48
danwentsalv-orlando: i think the appreoach of phrasing it as a type of sharing with limited options to start makes sense.21:48
danwent"all" or "none" doesn't seem super intuitive to me, but we can bicker about exact terms later :)21:48
salv-orlandoIn theory I would use a bit mask as you do for an in ode!21:49
danwentmmm… might be an interesting way to think about it.21:49
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danwentok, so are people generally inline with the approach of not calling them public, but rather having a "sharing" attribute, with two values to start in Folsom: "all"/"global" and "none"/"private"?21:50
danwentmodule the details of naming21:50
salv-orlandothe public network would be a 644 permission mask on the network object as an example21:50
rkukuradanwent: +121:51
nati_uen_+1 for 64421:51
danwentmmm… for unix folks, that is a fairly intuitive way of describing it.21:51
danwentok, its official, i like it :)21:51
nati_uen_salv-orlando: +1 for unix way :)21:51
gongysMy god, I have to count bit again.21:51
garyk+1 - 77721:51
danwentor at least, letting people think of it in a unix-like way21:52
danwentprobably not suing actual numbers though :)21:52
salv-orlandoyeah but the "group" bit mask does not yet make any sense, so let's leave it ignored at the moment21:52
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danwentok, sounds good.21:52
nati_uen_quantum net-chmod 0777 public-network21:52
danwentok, last topic, garyk, blockers on rpc?21:52
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garykdanwent: nope - jut syncing it with all of the agents.21:53
danwentgaryk: ok, reviewed it this morning.  no big concerns though, other than the config stuff21:53
danwentok, 6 minutes left21:54
danwentmoving on to...21:54
garykdanwent: cool. inpr from would be great21:54
danwent#topic open-discussion21:54
*** openstack changes topic to "open-discussion"21:54
garykthat is 1km for us slow runners21:54
danwentgaryk: did you not get my comments this morning?21:54
danwentok, open discussion?21:55
shivhJust a thought/idea, all this stuff looks like a file system, Type: directory/special file  Scope: Permissions, name/inodes: name/UUID21:55
nati_uen_May I discuss multi-host?21:55
garykdanwent: i'll double check. hadnetworking issues today21:55
gongyslet's talk abut multi-host21:56
danwentgaryk: ok.21:56
shivhsorry lost ability to transmit for some time..(will take up my point in ML)21:56
danwentnati_uen_: go ahead21:56
danwentshivh: ok.  logs of the meeting are posted as well.21:56
nati_uen_I'm thinking about how to design it21:56
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nati_uen_It needed scheduing function such as quantum-schduler21:56
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danwentnati_uen_: this sounds like a complex question.  can you ask it on ML?21:57
nati_uen_But it looks big for F3, so I wrote another design21:57
nati_uen_I got it21:57
salv-orlandoshivh: I think you'll find out in the logs the consensus is pretty much along the lines of your idea21:57
danwentnati_uen_: sorry, but we're running out of time.21:57
nati_uen_danwent: NP :)21:58
danwentone last comment I wanted to make was that, in case you haven't heard, vmware announced plans to acquire nicira today.21:58
danwentvmware actually mentioned openstack as one of the reasons they were excited about working with nicira21:58
nati_uen_Congrat! You can buy Tesra also21:58
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edgarmaganadan: plans to acquire? I think that was a deal done!  :-)21:58
danwentso I think things with Nicira's contributions to Quantum (and OVS) shoudl stay on track21:58
PotHixMe too21:58
gongysGood news.21:59
danwentif any of you, or others within your company have concerns, I'm happy to chat with them.21:59
garykdanwent, salv-orlando: congratulations21:59
danwentthanks guys.21:59
s0mikCongratulations Team Quantum on being at the strategic angle for future of networking!21:59
danwentedgarmagana: its like buying a house… its never "done" :P21:59
edgarmaganayeah.. congratulations folks!21:59
PotHixCongrats! :)21:59
mesteryedgarmagana: :)21:59
danwentanyway, wanted to just mention that as a few people have pinged me with concerns21:59
danwentok, anything else people wanted to bring up?22:00
mesterydanwent: We know where you're at if we have concerns. :)22:00
edgarmaganadrinks on Nicira next summit... ups sorry.. vmware!22:00
danwenthehe… all too true.22:00
danwentedgarmagana: yeah… that will take some time getting used to.22:00
danwentok, thanks folks.  see you on gerrit!22:00
salv-orlandomestery: sounds treating, good thing I'm not in Palo Alto :)22:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meeting channel. See for schedule and for meeting logs"22:00
openstackMeeting ended Mon Jul 23 22:00:46 2012 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)22:00
openstackMinutes (text):
mesteryBye folks!22:00
garykgood night22:00
amotoki_thnka. good day!22:00
nati_uen_We will see VMWare in :)22:01
salv-orlandorkukura: I will be online for a while, ping me if you want to chat about authZ for attributes22:01
nati_uen_Good day and night22:01
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zhuadlgreat news!22:01
rkukurasalv-orlando: yes22:01
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danwentnati_uen_: hopefully soon :)22:01
markvoelker1'night folks22:02
PotHixBye! :)22:02
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salv-orlandobye, thanks all!22:03
s0miktake care folks22:03
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rkukurasalv-orlando: Are you available to chat now?22:04
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salv-orlandorkukura: I have to apologize but will be afk for 5 minutes.22:08
salv-orlandowill ping you when I'm back.22:08
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rkukurasalv-orlando: ok22:08
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