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| vishy | #startmeeting nova | 21:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Nov 8 21:00:16 2012 UTC. The chair is vishy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 21:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova' | 21:00 |
| vishy | is anyone here today? | 21:00 |
| mtreinish | I'm here | 21:00 |
| dansmith | me | 21:00 |
| * Vek waves | 21:00 | |
| russellb | hi | 21:00 |
| jog0 | o/ | 21:00 |
| vishy | well hello everyone! | 21:00 |
| arata | hello | 21:00 |
| vishy | #topic Agenda | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda" | 21:01 | |
| vishy | #link http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings/Nova | 21:01 |
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| * devananda waves | 21:01 | |
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| vishy | comstud: are you here? | 21:01 |
| vishy | skipping the first topic to give him time to show up | 21:01 |
| vishy | we may have a DST casualty | 21:02 |
| vishy | #topic Baremetal Driver | 21:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Baremetal Driver" | 21:02 | |
| rmk | here | 21:02 |
| vishy | so devananda let me know the other day that hp is putting a group of people specifically on bare-metal | 21:02 |
| rmk | sort of here I should say | 21:02 |
| devananda | yep, we are | 21:03 |
| vishy | so he was wondering about just merging the existing code and cleaning it up afterwards | 21:03 |
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| russellb | big -1 to that idea ... | 21:03 |
| vishy | so collaboration is easier | 21:03 |
| russellb | couple of points | 21:03 |
| comstud | vishy: here | 21:03 |
| russellb | first, i don't think we should sacrifice review quality, every, especially for something really big | 21:03 |
| dansmith | agreed | 21:03 |
| russellb | and second, why can't collaboration happen outside of trunk? | 21:03 |
| Vek | +1 | 21:03 |
| devananda | thing is, it's not that easy for _us_ to clean up someone else's review | 21:04 |
| rmk | Why not just use a separate github repo until we're closer to the point of needing reviews? | 21:04 |
| russellb | s/every/ever/ | 21:04 |
| russellb | devananda: have you tried to talk to them? | 21:04 |
| devananda | russellb: yep | 21:04 |
| devananda | they've accepted 3 pull requests fo far for small things | 21:04 |
| devananda | and squashed them into their reviews w/o any attribution | 21:04 |
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| devananda | not that that's a big deal for small things | 21:04 |
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| devananda | but when we throw 4 or 5 devs full time at this, it's kinda not so good | 21:05 |
| russellb | so definitely a collaboration challenge, but throwing it into trunk before it passes code review can't be the answer ... | 21:05 |
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| devananda | as long as the review is owned by not-us, how do we develop/improve it at a reasonable pace and using the tools we're all used to? | 21:05 |
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| vishy | one option would be put it on stackforge | 21:06 |
| russellb | sure, could do that | 21:06 |
| vishy | and bring it back in once it is clean | 21:06 |
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| dansmith | I think that's a much better idea | 21:06 |
| russellb | though someone is going to have to do some squashing if you go that route ... | 21:06 |
| rmk | agree | 21:06 |
| Vek | didn't we once upon a time have a discussion about long-running branches? | 21:07 |
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| russellb | so anyway, stackforge, or just a github repo | 21:07 |
| russellb | no matter the tool, the collaboration problem is going to still exist | 21:07 |
| lifeless | o/ | 21:07 |
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| devananda | how does stackforge / squashing work w.r.t retaining commit history / authorship? | 21:07 |
| devananda | when N people at M companies are collaborating on something? | 21:08 |
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| devananda | looking at out-of-trunk forks of things like reddwarf, where >1 company work on it, it looks like fail to me | 21:08 |
| russellb | we need to standardize on a header like "Co-Authored-By" or whatever | 21:08 |
| dansmith | yeah, that's a different problem, IMHO | 21:08 |
| dansmith | solved in other communities without much trouble | 21:08 |
| devananda | so a 10k line patch becomes co-authord by 10 ppl? | 21:08 |
| russellb | indeed | 21:08 |
| dansmith | honestly, | 21:09 |
| dansmith | I think we should shoot for smaller chunks anyway, shouldn't we? | 21:09 |
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| dansmith | 10k is ridiculous :) | 21:09 |
| Vek | devananda: given our gating, I just don't see any other way of doing it, and +1 to dansmith re smaller chunks | 21:09 |
| devananda | dansmith: the crrent NTT reviews are around 1 - 2k each, i think | 21:09 |
| dansmith | devananda: yeah, which are still too large, IMHO | 21:09 |
| devananda | granted, none of them actually _work_ without the others | 21:09 |
| vishy | dansmith: smaller chunks doesn't really help if a lot of collaborating is happening on each chenk | 21:09 |
| vishy | * chunk | 21:10 |
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| devananda | functionally, we can't test or develop any of these pieces independently of eachother | 21:10 |
| dansmith | vishy: they can be smaller chunks before merge and larger for collab, no? | 21:10 |
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| russellb | so, fork it if you have to. if they won't take your pull requests, and you honestly produce a better end result, we merge that? | 21:10 |
| russellb | i'd really like to see everyone work together and play nicely though :) | 21:10 |
| devananda | :( | 21:10 |
| comstud | russellb: boooo | 21:10 |
| devananda | NTT and ISI have been very eager to work with us | 21:11 |
| lifeless | so heres the problem | 21:11 |
| lifeless | there is a large code change | 21:11 |
| lifeless | with lots of moving parts | 21:11 |
| dansmith | is the problem that they won't attribute, or that their attribution isn't enough for you? i.e. you need git authorship | 21:11 |
| russellb | comstud: boo? | 21:11 |
| comstud | playing nice removes drama i like to watch | 21:11 |
| lifeless | it - frankly - needs a massive overhaul, to reduce duplication with nova's core, make better use of e.g. quantum. | 21:11 |
| Vek | heh | 21:11 |
| lifeless | the folk working on it are playing nice with each other but: | 21:12 |
| devananda | dansmith: no. attribution is a part but not the whole issue. dev pace is the bigger problem IMO | 21:12 |
| russellb | comstud: heh, well as long as we agree that drama is not a reason to merge a huge amount of code that isn't ready | 21:12 |
| lifeless | - we have no place to record bugs. | 21:12 |
| comstud | haha | 21:12 |
| devananda | ^ ++ to bugs on LP | 21:12 |
| uvirtbot` | devananda: Error: "++" is not a valid command. | 21:12 |
| devananda | gah | 21:12 |
| lifeless | - attribution is going to be a PITA when it lands: if we flatten everything, a dozen or more folk will show as one commit | 21:12 |
| russellb | tons of projects seem to have good pace without openstack infrastructure :) | 21:12 |
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| dansmith | so, I've been mostly ignoring the patches, | 21:13 |
| lifeless | - if we don't, its going to be many hundreds, if not thousands of patches landing as a single rebased set on trunk | 21:13 |
| dansmith | but I agree with lifeless that they seem to need an overhaul | 21:13 |
| lifeless | there are scaling and design issues that happened because the core thing was written off in a silo | 21:13 |
| russellb | that has been my impression as well | 21:13 |
| lifeless | rather than a bunch of incremental work on trunk. | 21:13 |
| devananda | it definitely needs an overhaul, but us forking NTT's code and doing that is the wrong way to collaborate with them | 21:13 |
| dansmith | hence my concern on just merging it and sorting out the survivors later | 21:13 |
| vishy | lifeless / devananda is it possible to implement it with a small driver portion in trunk and the majority a separate install? | 21:13 |
| lifeless | The longer we keep it out of trunk *the worse the problem gets* | 21:13 |
| devananda | vishy: i'll take another look at it from that angle, but off-hand, no. | 21:14 |
| lifeless | So, my suggestion here is to figure out how to mitigate the fallout on *non-baremetal-stuff* in trunk, then land it wholesale | 21:14 |
| Vek | is there any way to handle this using branching, i.e., branch to a monster topic branch, handle all the collaboration there, then once it passes tests in situ and conflicts have been resolved, then we just merge it into core? | 21:14 |
| lifeless | and fix in situ once the structural problem has been resolved. | 21:14 |
| vishy | we could do a special case ff-merge i supose. | 21:14 |
| lifeless | vishy: we might end up with that, my concern as above is to remove the structural thing that is exacerbating the problem every day | 21:14 |
| lifeless | vishy: like - I want to totally delete the baremetal-deploy-helper | 21:15 |
| devananda | yep. that's big on our plan | 21:15 |
| lifeless | vishy: but to do that requires work to get baremetal w/quantum in play | 21:15 |
| vishy | ok so it sounds like there is opposition to the jfmi (just freaking merge it) plan | 21:16 |
| lifeless | vishy: thats tricky at best with baremetal something that you need a branch of devstack, adhoc sql etc to get going : and we're pushing that stuff upstream as fast as its bits become relevant to the various projects | 21:16 |
| russellb | huge opposition from me | 21:16 |
| vishy | fyi the 1st patch is about to co in | 21:16 |
| vishy | which will help a bit. | 21:16 |
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| russellb | scheduler one? | 21:16 |
| devananda | vishy: you mean the scheduler change? | 21:16 |
| vishy | devananda: yes | 21:16 |
| russellb | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/13920/ | 21:16 |
| lifeless | so, one thing - would you guys be happy with bugs in the baremetal branch being in main nova launchpad bugs? tagged baremetal ? | 21:17 |
| lifeless | That would remove one part of the issue around collaboration | 21:17 |
| vishy | lifeless: I don't mind that, although why not use github issues? | 21:18 |
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| lifeless | (and give data for folk concerned about performance and design) | 21:18 |
| lifeless | vishy: because we'd need to migrate the bugs to LP as each commit gets merged. | 21:18 |
| lifeless | vishy: thats pretty wasteful | 21:18 |
| russellb | LP bugs are fine, as long as they tagged well enough | 21:18 |
| lifeless | vishy: I have much better things to do than to write bug migration tools between disparate systems ;) | 21:18 |
| jog0 | lifeless: if we have a long running branch as part of main repo then using main nova LP bugs makes sense too IMHO | 21:18 |
| russellb | hopefully it's not too high volume | 21:18 |
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| lifeless | russellb: you can exclude baremetal tagged bugs from any subscription you have | 21:19 |
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| russellb | we have enough bugs to go through as it is ... so hopefully those involved triage them and keep them in good shape | 21:19 |
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| lifeless | russellb: and then ignore them | 21:19 |
| russellb | sounds like work :) | 21:19 |
| lifeless | russellb: I will commit to doing that if you like | 21:19 |
| russellb | k | 21:19 |
| russellb | i'm fine seeing them | 21:19 |
| vishy | i have trouble seeing how it will make a huge difference but if it helps i don't mind | 21:19 |
| russellb | i just don't want 20 baremetal bugs in my queue of stuff that hasn't been triaged | 21:19 |
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| lifeless | I've just setup a subscription just for them | 21:20 |
| lifeless | As long as the nova PTL etc are happy with me getting in there, consider them triaged. | 21:20 |
| vishy | devananda: you guys are from the same company as mtaylor so you could try to convince him to set up another branch in nova where you can collaborate. | 21:20 |
| vishy | if you really feel like it is worth it over github | 21:20 |
| devananda | at least for now it'll probably be largely us (me/lifeless) managing the barmetal bugs | 21:21 |
| comstud | russellb: i feel like this is another case for a more general nova-compute (splitting at driver layer) | 21:21 |
| lifeless | vishy: we can do that, but the question is a nova project one not CI plumbing :) | 21:21 |
| russellb | so who gets +2 rights on the branch? | 21:21 |
| vishy | it would need a new group nova-baremetal | 21:21 |
| devananda | vishy: not quite sure i follow what having another branch gets us | 21:21 |
| vishy | honestly I think it makes it more complicated | 21:21 |
| russellb | vishy: who approves who goes into nova-baremetal ? :-) | 21:21 |
| devananda | besides that :) | 21:21 |
| lifeless | +1 on it being complicated | 21:21 |
| vishy | you could use all of the normal openstack tools. | 21:21 |
| vishy | if i were doing it though i would just start a shared org on github and put the code there | 21:22 |
| vishy | and do pull requests | 21:22 |
| russellb | same | 21:22 |
| dansmith | I'm thinking this approach might apply to cells and whatever the NBT is.. perhaps it's worth documenting the process, | 21:22 |
| lifeless | let me repeat the problem statement | 21:22 |
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| dansmith | and the conditions for being considered for this special treatment? | 21:22 |
| lifeless | the problem is that there is a combination of A) lots of code, B) lots of organisations, C) *not* getting review by the reviewers of its final destination. | 21:22 |
| devananda | that's easy enough for us _IF_ we wanted to fork nova and maintain our own project outside of trunk. but we think that's a bad idea | 21:23 |
| lifeless | C is the crux: any work we do without C being inverted, means review debt for when the final merge happens. | 21:23 |
| vishy | so it sounds like we need some core volunteers | 21:23 |
| vishy | to join the effort | 21:23 |
| russellb | yep | 21:24 |
| lifeless | I'd be delighted to work towards being a nova core | 21:24 |
| devananda | same | 21:24 |
| lifeless | but you guys don't know me yet :) | 21:24 |
| vishy | the obvious candidates are markmc and myself | 21:24 |
| vishy | since we've reviewed the code quite a bit | 21:24 |
| russellb | right, you guys are already providing feedback | 21:24 |
| vishy | i think devananda has been doing a great job with reviews also | 21:24 |
| vishy | so i will volunteer markmc | 21:24 |
| vishy | :) | 21:24 |
| russellb | heh, who's not here to decline | 21:25 |
| russellb | but he has been involved a good bit already | 21:25 |
| vishy | perfect it is decided | 21:25 |
| vishy | seriously though | 21:25 |
| vishy | devananda/lifeless, can you guys ping me if you need help on specific points? | 21:25 |
| vishy | and markmc as well | 21:25 |
| vishy | I think if you guys attack it from a cleanup perspective we will be happier with it in general | 21:26 |
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| russellb | but i don't think we've solved the collaboration problem | 21:26 |
| devananda | russellb: exactly | 21:26 |
| vishy | why not | 21:26 |
| vishy | shared org on github isn't good enough? | 21:26 |
| russellb | oh, i think it is | 21:26 |
| russellb | i just don't know that i heard anyone agree with you that it was good (other than me) | 21:26 |
| devananda | vishy: perhaps i'm just missing the end part | 21:27 |
| devananda | let's say we do the shared github | 21:27 |
| russellb | with some nova-core involvement hopefully | 21:27 |
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| devananda | lifeless, myself, and other hp folk do lots of work, and NTT/ISI guys do some work, | 21:28 |
| devananda | and a few core people kinda watch what we do | 21:28 |
| russellb | and eventually it has to be reviewed again | 21:28 |
| devananda | a) there's no gerrit to realy get people to review things | 21:28 |
| russellb | github has code review stuff in pull requests | 21:28 |
| devananda | eh, ok. with human gate? | 21:28 |
| dansmith | what about the CI part? | 21:29 |
| devananda | right. that was going to be my (b) | 21:29 |
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| devananda | no CI. easy for anyone to break it and not know | 21:29 |
| russellb | persumably you can still have a system run periodic test runs on the branch | 21:29 |
| devananda | lastly, what's the final path to merging it into trunk in, say, a few months | 21:29 |
| russellb | smokestack can do that on arbitrary git repos | 21:29 |
| russellb | it has to get reviewed just like everything else IMO | 21:29 |
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| devananda | russellb: yes, it does. i just hesitate to force us to use different tools | 21:30 |
| vishy | devananda: so it sounds like you are pushing for another branch in ci | 21:30 |
| vishy | which i thought we just decided wasn't worth it... | 21:30 |
| * devananda scrolls back | 21:30 | |
| dansmith | so, remind me: now that this is all done, it still doesn't seem like something that can be broken up into much smaller pieces and submitted normally, is that right? | 21:30 |
| vishy | dansmith: it would be hard to do so correct | 21:31 |
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| vishy | dansmith: but if the code is only new files we could just ff merge the whole thing | 21:32 |
| russellb | hopefully things that affect other parts of core code are submitted in pieces along the way | 21:32 |
| dansmith | right, so, | 21:32 |
| russellb | and then in the end it's a fairly self-contained review | 21:32 |
| russellb | (even if big) | 21:32 |
| russellb | such is life | 21:32 |
| dansmith | if we could get the core changes submitted normally, either before or after the whole-file bits, | 21:32 |
| vishy | i think that is the way to go, do core changes against trunk | 21:33 |
| dansmith | then it seems preferable to do that over this other approach, | 21:33 |
| vishy | other stuff separately | 21:33 |
| lifeless | dansmith: so I think it *can* be split out, but the fundamental problem there is that what exists today is kindof shortest-path-to-solution rather than best-path | 21:33 |
| dansmith | which will end up with a lot less visibility into all of the changes, I think | 21:33 |
| lifeless | having climbed through it | 21:33 |
| dansmith | lifeless: yeah, understand, but people do this all the time | 21:33 |
| dansmith | lifeless: they write it one way, learn a bunch, and then have to make it into something that's actually acceptable :) | 21:33 |
| dansmith | (or reviewable) | 21:33 |
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| russellb | +1 :) | 21:34 |
| lifeless | dansmith: sure; the scale here is perhaps the root of the issue ;) | 21:34 |
| dansmith | the scale makes it more important, IMHO :) | 21:34 |
| vishy | so i don't thinke we have really come up with a solution yet | 21:34 |
| russellb | well, nothing is easy, but the way I see it ... | 21:35 |
| lifeless | dansmith: right | 21:35 |
| russellb | 1) no, it can't go into trunk now, it's not ready | 21:35 |
| vishy | lifeless / devananda: i think you should just focus on cleaning up each individual review already in queue | 21:35 |
| lifeless | in fact, it would be almost better to start over:) | 21:35 |
| russellb | 2) keep making it better, submitting core changes as pieces as you can | 21:35 |
| dansmith | lifeless: sometimes it is! :) | 21:35 |
| vishy | get them up to snuff, then you can refactor to your hearts content using the normal review process. | 21:35 |
| lifeless | [not kidding - identify each problem that needs solving, which we have a good list of, and do targeted work to solve it] | 21:36 |
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| vishy | lifeless / devananda: It sounds like anything else will really slow things down | 21:36 |
| dansmith | you guys could start poaching bits out of the existing reviews, | 21:36 |
| dansmith | fixing them and submitting them against core with proper attribution, right? | 21:37 |
| devananda | vishy: that route means we do our testing/devel off of their fork, giving them pull requests, and waiting for them to update the reviews | 21:37 |
| dansmith | then the NTT folks would remove that bit from their patch and re-post | 21:37 |
| dansmith | wash, rinse, repeat until the actual patches are small and specific | 21:37 |
| devananda | vishy: unless i am misunderstanding | 21:37 |
| vishy | devananda: not really, you can cleanup and push over them if they dont' mind | 21:37 |
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| devananda | vishy: i'll ask. might be ok, and would simplify things | 21:38 |
| vishy | devananda: but I'm suggesting not to do the long term "right" cleanup | 21:38 |
| vishy | but the cleanup to make it mergable | 21:38 |
| lifeless | vishy: what is the bar for that ? | 21:38 |
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| vishy | i.e. a) it works b) doesn't break other core functionality | 21:38 |
| lifeless | ok | 21:38 |
| lifeless | so thats what I was proposing we do. | 21:39 |
| vishy | c) doesn't do really silly ugly python etc. | 21:39 |
| devananda | vishy: is it not there right now? jenkins is passing, isn't it? :) | 21:39 |
| devananda | gah | 21:39 |
| devananda | (c) :P | 21:39 |
| lifeless | so we can do c) easily enough, and a and b are in play already I believe. | 21:39 |
| vishy | honestly I don't have huge issues with the other patches in the queue | 21:39 |
| lifeless | russellb: ^ is this sufficient for you? | 21:39 |
| vishy | I'd like to minimize them touching core code | 21:39 |
| vishy | which is why we've spent so long on the first one | 21:39 |
| russellb | maybe ... I haven't looked at the code very closely. | 21:39 |
| russellb | obviously the stuff that touches code outside the driver should be reviewed the most strictly | 21:40 |
| russellb | but even the driver itself, there should be a quality bar ... | 21:40 |
| devananda | russellb, vishy, afaik the only patch touching nova core is the first one, which you said was about to merge anyway | 21:40 |
| russellb | beyond "it works" | 21:40 |
| devananda | the others are all driver specific, or extra helpers in /bin/ | 21:40 |
| russellb | yeah, but even the rest, have to consider the maintenance burden | 21:41 |
| russellb | having all these new people committed to working on it helps that | 21:41 |
| vishy | russellb: I think we have a ton of volunteers helps | 21:41 |
| russellb | yep | 21:41 |
| vishy | devananda has been very helpful to nova in general | 21:41 |
| russellb | i'm not going to say "sounds good" because i haven't looked at the code enough yet | 21:41 |
| vishy | and it sounds like lifeless is getting up to speed | 21:41 |
| vishy | aratu has been doing good work as well | 21:41 |
| vishy | they have a lot of people that will be valuable to nova in general imo | 21:42 |
| russellb | but in general, as long as we're not merging something before it meets the same quality standards everything else is held to, then I'm good with it | 21:42 |
| russellb | that was my #1 concern this meeting | 21:42 |
| lifeless | russellb: so thats what confuses me :) | 21:42 |
| vishy | russellb: fair enough. I think we should treat it as we do all other drivers though | 21:42 |
| lifeless | I can tell you that at a macro scale its quality is poor, but we can fix the micro scale easily. | 21:43 |
| vishy | as long as it is tested and has people working on it we don't need to get every inner part up to code and design quality standards. | 21:43 |
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| lifeless | Micro scale quality is a poor indicator for macro quality. | 21:43 |
| vishy | ok lets move on for now | 21:43 |
| vishy | we will revisit next week | 21:43 |
| vishy | lets try to get patch 1 in this week and then we can see how easy the others are | 21:44 |
| vishy | #topic Cells Status | 21:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Cells Status" | 21:44 | |
| comstud | oh hi | 21:44 |
| vishy | similar type of topic | 21:44 |
| vishy | :) | 21:44 |
| comstud | haha | 21:44 |
| comstud | I have updated the blueprint spec with additional information (config options and so forth) | 21:44 |
| vishy | unfortunately i haven't had time to look at this code | 21:44 |
| comstud | I'm working address some of the current concerns | 21:45 |
| vishy | how are we doing with it so far? | 21:45 |
| comstud | I have enough feedback that I'll be busy for a couple days yet | 21:45 |
| comstud | I am out tomorrow and this weekend, though. | 21:45 |
| russellb | i wanted to review this week, got sidetracked by a security release and a frustrating qpid+eventlet bug ... | 21:45 |
| russellb | will try again this week | 21:45 |
| comstud | i'm guessing i'll have it updated Monday | 21:45 |
| comstud | might want to wait until then | 21:46 |
| russellb | ok | 21:46 |
| comstud | Should have some additional info in doc strings to help reviewing. | 21:46 |
| vishy | oh eventlet, how I love thee | 21:46 |
| vishy | comstud: ok cool, so we are waiting on you for the moment | 21:46 |
| vishy | #topic Nova bugs | 21:46 |
| comstud | in any case, I'm not hurting for any more feedback at the moment | 21:46 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Nova bugs" | 21:46 | |
| comstud | :) | 21:46 |
| Vek | heh | 21:47 |
| russellb | ah, cool, then i don't feel as bad :-p | 21:47 |
| comstud | ya, no worries. i'm still working on splitting the 4.5K line patch up also | 21:47 |
| vishy | doing pretty well | 21:47 |
| vishy | #link http://webnumbr.com/untouched-nova-bugs | 21:47 |
| vishy | russelb is the big winner this week! | 21:47 |
| russellb | \o/ | 21:47 |
| dansmith | hah | 21:47 |
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| vishy | #link http://www.stillhq.com/openstack/nova/triage-20121109.txt | 21:47 |
| russellb | i did it for the stats, no other reason | 21:48 |
| vishy | any important notes on bugs? | 21:48 |
| dansmith | and the chicks | 21:48 |
| russellb | vishy: haven't come across any new big ones worth noting here | 21:48 |
| comstud | i beat vish, at least. | 21:48 |
| russellb | oh, there was one weird security thing that nobody has been able to reproduce | 21:48 |
| vishy | comstud: self-triage doesn't count! | 21:48 |
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| comstud | haha | 21:48 |
| vishy | :p | 21:48 |
| vishy | #topic grizzly-1 planning | 21:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "grizzly-1 planning" | 21:49 | |
| comstud | i find em and I fix em! | 21:49 |
| russellb | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1074343 | 21:49 |
| uvirtbot` | Launchpad bug 1074343 in nova "ec2 describe instances does not filter by project_id" [Undecided,Incomplete] | 21:49 |
| russellb | that was the potential security thing worth looking at | 21:49 |
| vishy | https://launchpad.net/nova/+milestone/grizzly-1 | 21:49 |
| vishy | #link https://launchpad.net/nova/+milestone/grizzly-1 | 21:49 |
| vishy | so some stuff probably needs to move out of grizzly 1 | 21:50 |
| dansmith | I had a question: | 21:50 |
| dansmith | don't we need to break up no-db-compute a bit? | 21:50 |
| dansmith | into some pieces we can actually mark as done at some point? :) | 21:50 |
| russellb | dansmith: sure, that'd be good | 21:50 |
| vishy | dansmith: we could | 21:50 |
| vishy | dansmith: or we could just target it to g-3 :) | 21:51 |
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| dansmith | vishy: well, it's still just a huge chunk of work, seemingly too large to be one bp | 21:51 |
| dansmith | besides, | 21:51 |
| dansmith | I'm jealous that russellb gets to have his name all over it :) | 21:51 |
| dansmith | and launchpad keeps mocking that I "have no assigned blueprints" ;) | 21:52 |
| russellb | seems reasonable to have some sub-bps | 21:52 |
| russellb | isolate-virt-drivers-from-db could be one ... final-bits-of-no-db-messaging another ... | 21:52 |
| russellb | from there it gets complicated :) | 21:52 |
| russellb | next is figure-out-the-end-of-no-db-compute | 21:52 |
| dansmith | split-nova-compute | 21:52 |
| russellb | there ya go.. | 21:52 |
| russellb | want to file those? | 21:53 |
| dansmith | sure | 21:53 |
| vishy | ok i moved out the ones that i'm pretty sure aren't g-1 | 21:53 |
| russellb | ping me and i can approve and such | 21:53 |
| russellb | vish gave me magic powers | 21:53 |
| dansmith | heh | 21:53 |
| vishy | jog0: ping | 21:53 |
| jog0 | vishy: pong | 21:53 |
| vishy | jog0: I targetted teh remove nova volume one to you | 21:53 |
| jog0 | vishy: I just saw, thanks | 21:53 |
| vishy | since you have been submitting the remaining work | 21:53 |
| vishy | jog0: are you still doing aggregate based availability zones? | 21:54 |
| jog0 | vishy: yes | 21:54 |
| vishy | cool | 21:54 |
| jog0 | haven't had a chance to dust off the code yet though | 21:54 |
| vishy | i don't know what happened to mtaylor's entry points stuff | 21:55 |
| vishy | but aside from cells and bare metal which we discussed everything else is looking decent. | 21:55 |
| Vek | it all expired; guess he hasn't had time to work on it | 21:55 |
| russellb | performance problem stalled it | 21:55 |
| comstud | ya | 21:55 |
| vishy | still waiting on code for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/server-count-for-nova-flavors | 21:55 |
| vishy | i think hp has that somewhere | 21:56 |
| vishy | anyway i don't think there is anything horribly out of line | 21:56 |
| vishy | # topic General Discussion | 21:56 |
| russellb | 4 minutes! | 21:56 |
| vishy | #topic General Discussion | 21:56 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "General Discussion" | 21:56 | |
| russellb | nova is busy. | 21:57 |
| russellb | fun times. | 21:57 |
| Vek | *nod* | 21:57 |
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| vishy | i think i have to stop getting every review email | 21:59 |
| Vek | heh | 21:59 |
| russellb | that's intense | 21:59 |
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| vishy | takes me most of my day just keeping up with email | 21:59 |
| dansmith | vishy: you don't have to read them all :) | 21:59 |
| * Vek has had days with 100+ nova review emails, right after having done a review day | 21:59 | |
| Vek | can't imagine what it would be like to get 'em all | 22:00 |
| dansmith | I get them all | 22:00 |
| dansmith | you just have to be selective :) | 22:00 |
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| russellb | mark all as read is your friend | 22:00 |
| dansmith | scoring/tagging is your friend | 22:00 |
| Vek | killfile is your friend :) | 22:00 |
| russellb | woah now, that's advanced | 22:00 |
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| Vek | hehe :) | 22:01 |
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| russellb | vishy: #endmeeting? | 22:01 |
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| Vek | seconded. | 22:01 |
| russellb | thanks a lot everybody :) | 22:02 |
| vishy | #endmeeting | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 22:02 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Nov 8 22:02:09 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2012/nova.2012-11-08-21.00.html | 22:02 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2012/nova.2012-11-08-21.00.txt | 22:02 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2012/nova.2012-11-08-21.00.log.html | 22:02 |
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| devananda | #startmeeting DB team meeting | 22:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Nov 8 22:04:10 2012 UTC. The chair is devananda. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:04 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'db_team_meeting' | 22:04 |
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| devananda | hi all. busy afternoon :) | 22:04 |
| devananda | who's sticking around? | 22:04 |
| jog0 | o/ | 22:04 |
| dripton | hi | 22:04 |
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| russellb | hi | 22:05 |
| devananda | shall we touch on the action items from last week before going into the regular items? | 22:05 |
| dripton | If we can do it faster than last week | 22:06 |
| devananda | k | 22:06 |
| devananda | i started some bp's for arranging the db cleanup | 22:06 |
| devananda | we can probably add add'l nested bp's if needed | 22:06 |
| devananda | i think jog0 made a list of leaking sqlalchemy objects | 22:07 |
| jog0 | devananda: correct | 22:07 |
| jog0 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/15450/ https://etherpad.openstack.org/sqlalchemy-leaks | 22:07 |
| devananda | vish and i talked about the on-delete triggers and he'd rather shy away fromt aht for now | 22:07 |
| devananda | using the UNIQUE (column, deleted) approach that someone suggested at the summit | 22:08 |
| devananda | dripton was going to look for unused api calls. anything there? | 22:08 |
| jog0 | sounds like a good first step | 22:08 |
| dripton | I dropped a patch for review today | 22:08 |
| dripton | but it conflicts with another patch, so I'm waiting in line | 22:08 |
| devananda | awesome | 22:08 |
| dripton | There were a bunch | 22:08 |
| devananda | i'll take a look at them tonight | 22:09 |
| devananda | think that's all of last week | 22:09 |
| devananda | main topics are db cleanup and no-db-compute | 22:10 |
| devananda | i've moved archiving under cleanup, as that just seems related to me | 22:10 |
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| devananda | jump on in if you have things to say about ^ :) | 22:10 |
| russellb | no-db-compute is chugging along. dansmith is helping a bunch. | 22:11 |
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| russellb | none of it really affects the db layer code | 22:11 |
| russellb | but we're doing a huge pile of moving around what code uses the db layer :) | 22:11 |
| russellb | but let us know if you have any questions/concerns about what we're up to | 22:11 |
| devananda | russellb: i haven't been able to keep up with all the patches... | 22:12 |
| russellb | yeah, it's a lot | 22:12 |
| devananda | but what i've seen have been good | 22:12 |
| russellb | they generally fall into 1 of 2 categories right now | 22:12 |
| russellb | 1) moving db accesses happening in nova-compute up to nova-api, and having more data sent in the messages | 22:12 |
| russellb | 2) pulling db accesses out of the virt drivers and into the compute manager code so that it's all in one place | 22:13 |
| dansmith | 2 is about done | 22:13 |
| russellb | dansmith: awesome! | 22:13 |
| dansmith | there's a single db.foo query left in nova/virt | 22:13 |
| dansmith | not including any obscure magical db references, which will be harder to find | 22:14 |
| russellb | not a whole lot left of 1 either ... a few probably | 22:14 |
| dansmith | https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/nova+branch:master+topic:bp/no-db-compute,n,z | 22:14 |
| devananda | so, my other hat -- we'll have to go do that work for baremetal as well | 22:14 |
| devananda | a fair bit of db access in virt/baremetal | 22:14 |
| russellb | ah, yeah ... | 22:14 |
| dansmith | yeah, I should help look for those in the pending reviews | 22:14 |
| devananda | but most of it is accessing the bm db, not nova, iirc | 22:15 |
| russellb | well it's actually not as impotant for virt/baremetal, really | 22:15 |
| russellb | right, its own db | 22:15 |
| russellb | and there aren't guest VMs running on the compute machine | 22:15 |
| devananda | right | 22:15 |
| dansmith | but trying to stick to the pattern of the others would be nice | 22:15 |
| russellb | so, some of the optimizations could apply if it's adding new rpc stuff | 22:15 |
| dansmith | at least for auditing issues, I think | 22:15 |
| russellb | dansmith: true ... but i'm not sure how that would work if each nova-compute has its own db in barematal land | 22:15 |
| russellb | (which some people have objected to btw) | 22:16 |
| dansmith | russellb: not for the baremetal db, | 22:16 |
| dansmith | I mean for the regular nova db stuff | 22:16 |
| russellb | oh, right | 22:16 |
| russellb | +1 to that then | 22:16 |
| devananda | >1 nova-bm-compute can share one nova_bm db, i believe | 22:16 |
| russellb | ah... | 22:16 |
| russellb | but still, security concern doesn't apply in the same way, so *shrug* | 22:16 |
| devananda | cool | 22:16 |
| russellb | still the upgrade side of it though ... | 22:17 |
| dansmith | yeah | 22:17 |
| russellb | more than one service talking to the same db, and you want to live upgrade them | 22:17 |
| dansmith | that impossible pie-in-the-sky goal :) | 22:17 |
| russellb | fun times | 22:17 |
| russellb | heh, we'll get there someday | 22:17 |
| devananda | if you can take a look at the bm patches and give me some feedback on removing db access, that'd be apprciated :) | 22:18 |
| * russellb puts it on "the list" | 22:18 | |
| russellb | the list has been too big lately :( | 22:18 |
| devananda | *nod* | 22:18 |
| russellb | same problem for us all | 22:18 |
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| dripton | Just FYI, I took a look at alembic for backportable DB migrations | 22:19 |
| dripton | Wrote a script to convert most of our migration scripts from sqlalchemy-migrate to alembic, which mostly works. | 22:19 |
| dripton | But I don't think I'll push it further until we *need* it. | 22:20 |
| devananda | my feeling is that'd be good before we need it | 22:20 |
| devananda | eg., if there's some major bug that requres a db migration back-port | 22:20 |
| devananda | waiting for alembic at that point might be rough | 22:21 |
| devananda | no? | 22:21 |
| dripton | True. Maybe I'll start pushing sooner. I'm waiting for Dan Prince to squash Folsom migration scripts. | 22:21 |
| russellb | dripton: have you asked him about that? | 22:22 |
| russellb | is he working on it? | 22:22 |
| dripton | russellb: Yes, he wants to do it. I don't know if he's actually started, but he didn't want me to take it off his plate. | 22:22 |
| russellb | gotcha | 22:23 |
| devananda | anyone from db-common here today? | 22:24 |
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| devananda | #topic open discussion | 22:25 |
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| jog0 | devananda: so we are going with UNIQUE (column, deleted) as a first pass? | 22:25 |
| devananda | jog0: that seems to be the shorter path to getting away from some of the race conditions | 22:26 |
| devananda | actually, i was looking at postgres last night and it looks like they dont support INSERT .. ON DUP KEY UPDATE | 22:26 |
| jog0 | so we may be forced to abandon the shadow table idea then? | 22:27 |
| dripton | Is there an equivalent workaround for postgres? | 22:27 |
| devananda | dripton: afaict, not really knowing postgres, the answer is "no" | 22:27 |
| jog0 | well doing UNIQUE (column, deleted) sounds good to me. DOo we want to aim for Grizzly-1 for this? | 22:27 |
| devananda | atomic "upsert" as they call it isn't possible | 22:27 |
| russellb | i'm happy to see an active db team, thanks guys :) | 22:28 |
| dripton | I found a stack overflow post showing how to do it using exceptions, but it's ugly | 22:28 |
| devananda | yea, i found several examples using functions, exceptinos, etc... all ugly | 22:28 |
| devananda | and none solvethe race condition | 22:28 |
| devananda | jog0: i think we should gather a list of places where it's appropriate to apply UNIQUE indexes | 22:28 |
| jog0 | sounds good, how about an action item for next week | 22:29 |
| devananda | #action devananda to create list of methods that enforce uniqueness // tables that need UNIQUE indexes | 22:29 |
| devananda | i already have some notes on that, so it shouldn't take long to clean up | 22:30 |
| jog0 | as this will be a pretty big change to the way things work the longer its in trunk the better | 22:30 |
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| jog0 | also vishy had an interesting suggestion about sqlalchemy leaks (https://review.openstack.org/#/c/15450/) and I will be trying it out for next week. (my action item for next week) | 22:30 |
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| devananda | #action jog0 continue plugging leaking sqlalchemy objects | 22:31 |
| jog0 | dripton: did you find any read_deleted low hanging fruit? | 22:32 |
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| dripton | jog0: no, I did not. It was all high-hanging fruit | 22:33 |
| devananda | jog0: any update on the benchmark logs? | 22:33 |
| jog0 | dripton: too bad, can you make a list so we can plan on how to attack them | 22:33 |
| jog0 | devananda: not yet. let me check if I saved the old log files though | 22:34 |
| dripton | jog0: I will make a list of read_deleted instances. | 22:34 |
| jog0 | dripton: thanks | 22:34 |
| jog0 | devananda: I found some old log files that I saved, I can send them to you after the meeting | 22:35 |
| devananda | dripton: probably good to link that from one of the db-cleanup whiteboards | 22:35 |
| devananda | jog0: great, thanks | 22:35 |
| dripton | devananda: ok | 22:35 |
| jog0 | they are pretty big, a few MBs | 22:35 |
| jog0 | so pastebin may not work | 22:36 |
| devananda | #action dripton post a (link to a) list of read_deleted instances to db-cleanup whiteboard | 22:36 |
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| devananda | jog0: hm. we all have servers in clouds somewhere, right? :) | 22:36 |
| devananda | or google drive or something | 22:37 |
| devananda | if it's small enough to email, that's fine too | 22:37 |
| jog0 | devananda: yeah, I have to review them to give you some context and then I will put them on google drive or email | 22:37 |
| devananda | ack | 22:38 |
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| devananda | anything else, or shall we wrap up a bit early? | 22:40 |
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| dripton | That's all I have. | 22:40 |
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| jog0 | same | 22:41 |
| devananda | thanks everyone | 22:41 |
| * dripton waves goodbye | 22:41 | |
| devananda | #endmeeting | 22:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 22:41 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Nov 8 22:41:34 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:41 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/db_team_meeting/2012/db_team_meeting.2012-11-08-22.04.html | 22:41 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/db_team_meeting/2012/db_team_meeting.2012-11-08-22.04.txt | 22:41 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/db_team_meeting/2012/db_team_meeting.2012-11-08-22.04.log.html | 22:41 |
| jog0 | devananda: I should have the log files ready in about an hour, have a few other things to take care of first | 22:42 |
| devananda | jog0: no worries. it might be a bit beforei look at them | 22:42 |
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| mordred | vishy, russellb: yeah - performance problem, and then I got sucked in to two weeks of conferences | 22:55 |
| mordred | vishy, russellb: I'll resurrect it soonish | 22:55 |
| russellb | cool | 22:55 |
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