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| jd__ | #startmeeting ceilometer | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 4 15:00:18 2013 UTC. The chair is jd__. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ceilometer' | 15:00 |
| jd__ | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/MeteringAgenda | 15:00 |
| sandywalsh | o/ | 15:00 |
| llu-laptop | o/ | 15:00 |
| dhellmann | o/ | 15:00 |
| n0ano | o/ | 15:00 |
| DanD | o/ | 15:00 |
| dragondm | o/ | 15:01 |
| jd__ | hi everybody | 15:01 |
| gordc | o/ | 15:01 |
| jd__ | #topic asalkeld to release python-ceilometerclient 1.0.0 and document the release process | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "asalkeld to release python-ceilometerclient 1.0.0 and document the release process (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:01 | |
| jd__ | I imagine asalkeld's sleeping tight | 15:01 |
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| jd__ | but I didn't see any release unfortunately | 15:02 |
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| jd__ | #action asalkeld to release python-ceilometerclient 1.0.0 and document the release process | 15:02 |
| jd__ | #topic jd__ reassign nova-cell/ceilometer session to nova | 15:02 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "jd__ reassign nova-cell/ceilometer session to nova (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:02 | |
| jd__ | done, it has been merged with http://summit.openstack.org/cfp/details/147 | 15:02 |
| jd__ | oh wait | 15:03 |
| jd__ | #topic BREAKING NEWS | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "BREAKING NEWS (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:03 | |
| jd__ | we released Grizzly https://launchpad.net/ceilometer/grizzly/2013.1 | 15:03 |
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| ogelbukh | congrats everyone ) | 15:03 |
| dhellmann | nice! | 15:03 |
| llu-laptop | wonderful | 15:03 |
| jd__ | #info we released Grizzly https://launchpad.net/ceilometer/grizzly/2013.1 | 15:03 |
| gordc | awesome. | 15:03 |
| jd__ | thanks ttx for the release job :) | 15:04 |
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| llu-laptop | one question, what does the 1 in 2013.1 mean? | 15:04 |
| jd__ | first of the year | 15:05 |
| llu-laptop | ok, I used to though it was Jan. | 15:05 |
| jd__ | (at least that's my understanding) | 15:05 |
| jd__ | llu-laptop: no, Havana will be 2013.2 AFAIK :) | 15:05 |
| dhellmann | right | 15:05 |
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| jd__ | #topic Preparing for summit | 15:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Preparing for summit (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:06 | |
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| jd__ | #info Doc team would like for us to review https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Blueprint-restructure-documentation and think about how we fit in | 15:06 |
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| jd__ | ideas on that? | 15:06 |
| dhellmann | I looked over that earlier this week. I don't see any issue with us fitting in just like the other projects. | 15:06 |
| dhellmann | The reorg seems to make sense to me, too. | 15:07 |
| llu-laptop | Is this reorg decided? | 15:07 |
| dhellmann | no, it's under discussion by the doc team | 15:07 |
| jd__ | does't shock me either | 15:08 |
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| dhellmann | right, no surprises or issues | 15:08 |
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| jd__ | dhellmann: should we send a feedback to someone about this? | 15:08 |
| llu-laptop | why moving "reference manual" out of "user manual"? | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | no, annegentle just asked us to be prepared to talk about our doc needs in terms of that framework | 15:09 |
| llu-laptop | Is it more logical to put the "options" explanation just in user manual? | 15:09 |
| dhellmann | she is interested in feedback if we have it, but we don't have to reply formally | 15:09 |
| jd__ | llu-laptop: you probably want to ask the doc team, not us :-) | 15:10 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: ok, cool | 15:10 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: there may be a session we need to attend? | 15:10 |
| dhellmann | jd__: we do have a session in the doc track, let me find the link | 15:10 |
| jd__ | ok | 15:10 |
| esdaniel | o/ sorry for late arrival | 15:11 |
| jd__ | I'm having a hard time tracking session since they're not scheduled yet :) | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | #link restructure documentation session http://summit.openstack.org/cfp/details/129 | 15:11 |
| jd__ | ack | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | #link documentation for newly integrated projects http://summit.openstack.org/cfp/details/104 | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | the latter is the one we requested | 15:11 |
| jd__ | so we should be there indeed :-> | 15:11 |
| dhellmann | yes :-) | 15:11 |
| jd__ | ok -- anything else about the summit? | 15:12 |
| llu-laptop | when will the detailed schedule be ready? | 15:12 |
| jd__ | llu-laptop: by Tuesday | 15:12 |
| llu-laptop | I mean for whole summit | 15:12 |
| sandywalsh | looking forward to seeing the schedule | 15:13 |
| sandywalsh | Thurs is going to be busy | 15:13 |
| jd__ | definitely | 15:14 |
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| jd__ | #topic Open discussion | 15:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open discussion (Meeting topic: ceilometer)" | 15:15 | |
| jd__ | we're running out of topics :) | 15:15 |
| sandywalsh | that'll all change once we get the CM summit schedule :) | 15:16 |
| esdaniel | dhellmann: unless I'm mistaken asalkeld did release v1.0.0, though may not of updated docs it was: | 15:16 |
| esdaniel | git tag -s 1.0.0 | 15:17 |
| esdaniel | git push gerrit 1.0.0 | 15:17 |
| sandywalsh | dragondm, did you want to give any updates on the nova changes you've been making around notifications? | 15:17 |
| jd__ | esdaniel: you're right | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | esdaniel: maybe we need a job to build the lib and push it to pypi, then? | 15:17 |
| dhellmann | oh, no, it's there! | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | #link https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-ceilometerclient | 15:18 |
| esdaniel | yep, it's a little behind after it syncs first with our mirror then pypi i believe | 15:18 |
| jd__ | so we didn't get any notification as I though we would, but it's done | 15:18 |
| jd__ | fantastic | 15:18 |
| jd__ | zigo: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-ceilometerclient for you! | 15:18 |
| dragondm | Yah, in basic, I've got some changes that should allow nova to publish notifications for all the info that ceiliometer's compute agent emits. | 15:18 |
| esdaniel | asalkeld did it 5 mins after you asked him :-) | 15:18 |
| dhellmann | maybe we can make that job post to irc and/or the mailing list | 15:18 |
| zigo | jd__: Tagged? KEWL! :) | 15:18 |
| esdaniel | dhellmann +1 | 15:19 |
| jd__ | dragondm: cool | 15:19 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: +1 :) | 15:19 |
| jd__ | dragondm: under review or merged? | 15:19 |
| dragondm | Isn't up in gerrit yet. | 15:19 |
| dragondm | Will be sometime this week or early next. | 15:20 |
| dragondm | (was waiting for the grizzly branch to cut) | 15:20 |
| dhellmann | dragondm: add me as a reviewer, when you post it, please? | 15:20 |
| dragondm | Will do. | 15:20 |
| llu-laptop | draondm: does that mean we no longer need the ceilometer.compute.nova_notifier? | 15:20 |
| dragondm | Yup, that is the idea. | 15:20 |
| llu-laptop | dragondm: good to hear that | 15:21 |
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| dragondm | Also in the pipeline is a lightweight UDP notification mechanism. | 15:21 |
| jd__ | dragondm: nice too :) | 15:22 |
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| jd__ | does it sound possible that at some point nova can emit Ceilometer meters directly rather than notifications? | 15:22 |
| jd__ | or is it still too soon? | 15:23 |
| dhellmann | would we want that? | 15:23 |
| dragondm | That should also be up in oslo shortly. I'm still working on the receiving side for cm. Hope to have that before summit. | 15:23 |
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| jd__ | dhellmann: I know what I would want that, why wouldn't you want that? ;) | 15:23 |
| jd__ | s/what/why/ | 15:23 |
| dragondm | jd__ I'm not to sure about that... | 15:24 |
| dhellmann | jd__: given the amount of trouble we've had tying the two projects together all along, it seems like agreeing on a common format is better than having nova try to use our format | 15:24 |
| jd__ | right | 15:25 |
| jd__ | by the way, I think that at some point we're going to split the collector | 15:26 |
| jd__ | don't know if the subject poped in someone else mind so far | 15:26 |
| sandywalsh | publishing directly to CM isn't really a good idea unless it's going directly into the CM queue. If CM goes down, production will suffer | 15:26 |
| dhellmann | jd__: yeah, it makes sense to split up the 2 parts of the collector | 15:27 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: ok, I may tackle that at some point | 15:27 |
| dragondm | Aye. Tho that is part of the impetus for udp notifications. The downside is they get dropped if the receiver isn't there. The upside is they don't overload rabbit in that case. | 15:27 |
| dhellmann | jd__: I also had the idea of letting the notification handler just write to the database directly, instead of sending all of the data back out (depending on the pipeline configuration, of course) | 15:27 |
| zigo | jd__: Any idea why the Git repo on Alioth has so many tags, like 1.0.1, 1.0.2 and the like? | 15:27 |
| jd__ | zigo: url? | 15:28 |
| jd__ | dragondm: I imagine it's an operator choice for trade off at this point anywya | 15:28 |
| dragondm | yup. | 15:28 |
| zigo | jd__: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=openstack/python-ceilometerclient.git | 15:28 |
| * zigo don't understand why | 15:28 | |
| jd__ | dhellmann: depending on the pipeline configuration yeah -- that may be tricky but why not | 15:28 |
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| zigo | Gosh, it has *cinder* tags in. | 15:29 |
| zigo | What a mess. | 15:29 |
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| * zigo will fix. | 15:29 | |
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| dhellmann | jd__: well, the daemon that handles notifications could have a different pipeline config file from the other daemons (specified on the command line when the service starts) | 15:30 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: but that'd work against my split idea | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | ? | 15:30 |
| sandywalsh | dhellmann, +1 | 15:30 |
| dhellmann | oh, you don't want the notifications handler to touch the database? | 15:31 |
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| jd__ | dhellmann: yeah, that doesn't sound like a good isolation scheme | 15:31 |
| dragondm | yah, also another change I have for oslo is a routing notification driver, that can send notifications to other drivers according to event_type | 15:31 |
| jd__ | dhellmann: now you understand why I'd be happy if nova would use ceilometer.pipeline to publish metering | 15:32 |
| dragondm | Having a separate store (e.g a mongo db) that you throw the notifications into wouldn't be a bad idea. | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | dragondm: is that something the deployer should configure? | 15:32 |
| dhellmann | jd__: we'll have to put it in a separate library for that to work, I think | 15:33 |
| dragondm | dhellmann: Yes. Uses a json config file. It's similar to python's logging confs, but with a better syntax. | 15:33 |
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| jd__ | dhellmann: sure, but would it work (= be accepted) if we do that? | 15:33 |
| dhellmann | jd__: well, it would just need to work as a notification driver, right? | 15:33 |
| jd__ | dragondm: better syntax? doesn't sound like a great challenge to me ;-) | 15:34 |
| dragondm | Heh. yah. | 15:34 |
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| jd__ | dhellmann: no that you tell it, YEAH! :) | 15:34 |
| jd__ | s/no/now/ | 15:34 |
| jd__ | with dragondm's changes, it could be awesome | 15:35 |
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| dhellmann | and if we can make it a small package, so they don't have to install all of ceilometer on the hypervisor... | 15:35 |
| jd__ | nova -> multipublisher -> meters over rpc, udp, whatever -> destination | 15:35 |
| dragondm | I will put you folks on as reviewerd when I put those changes up. | 15:35 |
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| jd__ | dhellmann: we may put pipeline things and drivers in oslo | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | so rip the publishing stuff out of ceilometer and have both nova and ceilometer use it | 15:35 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 15:36 |
| sandywalsh | that's the beauty of the notification driver, operators choice | 15:36 |
| jd__ | so we totally kill the ceilometer piece doing the notifications -> meters conversion | 15:36 |
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| jd__ | less round trip | 15:36 |
| jd__ | less load on AMQP | 15:36 |
| jd__ | more happyness | 15:36 |
| dhellmann | jd__: yep | 15:36 |
| dragondm | Always good (less load on amqp) The current nova-cells is killing rabbit as-is | 15:36 |
| jd__ | good to hear | 15:37 |
| jd__ | I'll plan out some bp about that | 15:37 |
| dragondm | Always in favor of more happyness. | 15:37 |
| dhellmann | I was just about to suggest that :-) | 15:37 |
| sandywalsh | the downside is that notification drivers don't fit in the exception handling chain (they're a nice-to-have) | 15:37 |
| sandywalsh | by keeping them simple (like a rabbit publish) the complexity is moved to somewhere that that handle it better | 15:38 |
| jd__ | sandywalsh: I don't think it's worth than what we have now | 15:38 |
| sandywalsh | (retries, etc) | 15:38 |
| sandywalsh | worst? | 15:38 |
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| jd__ | worst. | 15:38 |
| sandywalsh | :) | 15:38 |
| jd__ | :) | 15:39 |
| sandywalsh | still, I don't think complexity belongs in the nova notification driver | 15:39 |
| sandywalsh | it a dumb animal | 15:39 |
| sandywalsh | it's | 15:39 |
| esdaniel | :-) | 15:39 |
| sandywalsh | (another beer debate I feel :) | 15:40 |
| jd__ | sandywalsh: bah I'll be happy to move more close to nova, but I don't feel like I'm the one that can +2 that ;) | 15:40 |
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| jd__ | anything else or should I end this madness? | 15:42 |
| * dhellmann is ready to get off of this crazy train | 15:42 | |
| esdaniel | ot: john o'hara speaking on 18/4 in london if anyone's interested | 15:42 |
| eglynn_ | apologies folks, caught up in another meeting | 15:42 |
| esdaniel | oops 17/4 my bad | 15:43 |
| jd__ | hi eglynn_ | 15:43 |
| eglynn_ | hey | 15:43 |
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| eglynn_ | thankfully meetings are logged, I can get caught up ... | 15:43 |
| jd__ | eglynn_: it hasn't be too long, but we're closing | 15:44 |
| jd__ | eglynn_: something you want to talk about? | 15:44 |
| eglynn_ | nope, I'm good thanks ... | 15:44 |
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| tongli | Hi, guys, | 15:45 |
| zigo | jd__: I got something else if you don't mind. | 15:45 |
| jd__ | zigo: go ahead | 15:45 |
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| zigo | distutils.errors.DistutilsError: Could not find suitable distribution for Requirement.parse('setuptools-git>=0.4') | 15:45 |
| tongli | can I ask you about the gauge on the storage (swift)? | 15:45 |
| zigo | That's in the clean target. | 15:45 |
| zigo | That's really annoying for my cowbuilder. | 15:45 |
| zigo | It would be nice not to have such requirement at clean time. | 15:46 |
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| tongli | Enabled ceilometer on swift, | 15:46 |
| jd__ | zigo: we only have this listed in test-requires | 15:46 |
| tongli | getting some information back, but could not figure out what these numbers really mean. | 15:46 |
| jd__ | zigo: which isn't read by setup.py AFAICT | 15:47 |
| jd__ | tongli: which one? | 15:47 |
| tongli | anyone here can help explain how to make sense of these numbers. | 15:47 |
| tongli | @jd__, let me get an example here. | 15:47 |
| jd__ | tongli: you may want to ask on #openstack-metering though | 15:48 |
| tongli | yeah, did that yesterday, no response. | 15:48 |
| tongli | I can ask again. | 15:48 |
| jd__ | zigo: #openstack-metering ? :) | 15:48 |
| jd__ | tongli: we're all there | 15:48 |
| tongli | k | 15:48 |
| jd__ | #endmeeting | 15:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 15:48 | |
| tongli | let me move to that channel then. | 15:48 |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 4 15:48:46 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:48 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2013/ceilometer.2013-04-04-15.00.html | 15:48 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2013/ceilometer.2013-04-04-15.00.txt | 15:48 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ceilometer/2013/ceilometer.2013-04-04-15.00.log.html | 15:48 |
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| ewindisch | damn. laptop running out of power - finding outlet - shouldn't be too late. | 15:52 |
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| zigo | jd__: ftp://117.121.243.213/debian/pool/grizzly/main/p/python-ceilometerclient/ :) | 15:53 |
| jd__ | zigo: works? | 15:53 |
| zigo | Please be my guess and try... | 15:53 |
| zigo | gest | 15:53 |
| zigo | shit | 15:54 |
| zigo | guest | 15:54 |
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| zigo | jd__: There was no commit between the RC and the release or what? | 15:56 |
| zigo | (of ceilometer, not the client) | 15:56 |
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| jd__ | zigo: none | 15:59 |
| zigo | :) | 16:00 |
| jd__ | zigo: no bug, no commit | 16:00 |
| zigo | Congrats. | 16:00 |
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| ewindisch | hello | 16:05 |
| ewindisch | sorry about the delay | 16:05 |
| ewindisch | #startmeeting | 16:05 |
| openstack | ewindisch: Error: A meeting name is required, e.g., '#startmeeting Marketing Committee' | 16:05 |
| ewindisch | #startmeeting Python3 | 16:05 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 4 16:05:36 2013 UTC. The chair is ewindisch. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:05 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Python3)" | 16:05 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'python3' | 16:05 |
| * dhellmann misread that error message and was worried he was here for the wrong meeting | 16:05 | |
| dhellmann | o/ | 16:05 |
| ewindisch | so, besides me being late again - who do we have ? :) | 16:05 |
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| dhellmann | hi, sorry I missed the first meeting last week and thanks for getting the ball rolling on this! | 16:06 |
| ewindisch | anyone else for the roll-call? | 16:06 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: no problem. Hopefully the momentum can be maintained - I'm a bit concerned nobody seems to be here, though. | 16:07 |
| dhellmann | markmcclain had another obligation this week | 16:07 |
| ewindisch | being release day doesn't help, I'm sure. | 16:08 |
| dhellmann | true | 16:08 |
| ewindisch | #topic action items last meeting | 16:08 |
| rpodolyaka | Hello, guys! I'm with you :) | 16:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "action items last meeting (Meeting topic: Python3)" | 16:08 | |
| ewindisch | 1. ewindisch follow up with -infra to discuss gating | 16:08 |
| ewindisch | hello rpodolyaka. | 16:08 |
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| ewindisch | honestly, I didn't have a lot to do with this because markmcclain was still working on a py3 test. | 16:09 |
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| ewindisch | 2. markmacclain to look at writing a py3 test | 16:09 |
| ewindisch | he isn't here… so | 16:09 |
| ewindisch | #action ewindisch to chase down markmacclain, ask about py3 test | 16:10 |
| ewindisch | 3. dripton to dig through oslo deps for version compat | 16:10 |
| ewindisch | dripton did this. | 16:10 |
| ewindisch | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Python3Deps | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | ewindisch: I updated the notes from that to answer the question about stevedore or cliff (I forget which it was) | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | both should work with 3.3 | 16:11 |
| dhellmann | we're targeting 3.3, right? | 16:11 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: that isn't decided. It seems conclusive we need to support at *least* 3.2 | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | ah | 16:12 |
| dhellmann | I misremembered | 16:12 |
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| dhellmann | I guess we'll have to see what we can do with the dependencies before making a final call on that. | 16:12 |
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| ewindisch | It was intended to review dripton's dependency analysis and use that as part basis for making a recommendation to the TC | 16:13 |
| ewindisch | 4. ewindisch to look at PSF sponsorship | 16:13 |
| dhellmann | the eventlet issue is going to be painful | 16:13 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: yeah. | 16:13 |
| dhellmann | ewindisch: did you have any luck with sponsorship? | 16:14 |
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| rpodolyaka | I filled some missing deps on wiki and tried to make one of the deps (mox) to be compatible with both Python 2.x and Python 3.x but it has turned out to be a bit harder than I thought... | 16:14 |
| ewindisch | I did look at this. It seems we could ask for funding, if we have things that we'd want to fund. That would probably be a sprint, or perhaps seeking a PSF sponsorship for eventlet folks ;-) | 16:14 |
| ewindisch | really the question isn't if we can get money, the question is what would we use it for? | 16:14 |
| dhellmann | good point | 16:15 |
| dhellmann | sprint funding is pretty easy to get, but the OpenStack foundation could probably cover those expenses, too | 16:15 |
| ewindisch | I thought it would've been good if we had a sponsored sprint at the summit, but a bit too late for that now. | 16:15 |
| dhellmann | funding longer term development would also be something to look at, if we can identify someone interested in doing the work on an upstream dependency | 16:16 |
| ewindisch | right. eventlet specifically comes to mind. | 16:16 |
| ewindisch | and finally… | 16:17 |
| ewindisch | 5. dripton create wiki pages | 16:17 |
| dhellmann | I wonder (pie in the sky) if we should just consider moving to tulip instead of porting eventlet. More "modern". | 16:17 |
| ewindisch | completed ;) | 16:17 |
| ewindisch | #topic async framework / eventlet | 16:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "async framework / eventlet (Meeting topic: Python3)" | 16:18 | |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: I'm thinking the same thing. | 16:18 |
| dhellmann | if we're going to make the leap... | 16:18 |
| ewindisch | or… porting eventlet to PEP3156 | 16:18 |
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| dhellmann | I don't know enough about the implementation to know if that's possible | 16:19 |
| dhellmann | how much of our code actively knows about eventlet? | 16:19 |
| ewindisch | note that if we decide to use Tulip or PEP3156, that work presently depends on Python3.3 | 16:20 |
| romcheg | There seems to be only a reference implementation for Tulip... | 16:20 |
| rpodolyaka | dhellmann: wsgi modules in every project, some workarounds on DB pooling... | 16:20 |
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| ewindisch | dhellmann: the rpc stuff is pretty tied to it, but it could be switched out easily enough, I think. | 16:20 |
| dhellmann | romcheg: yeah, it's early but parts of it will be in python 3.4 when it's done | 16:20 |
| ewindisch | the web parts are probably more tightly coupled | 16:20 |
| dhellmann | rpodolyaka: also the rpc lib, probably? | 16:20 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: yes, rpc. | 16:20 |
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| dhellmann | ewindisch: well, that fits with my goal to have us stop using our own wsgi module in favor of pecan and wsme :-) | 16:21 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: if we did that, we could switch off eventlet a whole lot easier. | 16:21 |
| dhellmann | the rpc bit is more troubling, but at least it is isolated if we have to make major changes | 16:21 |
| dhellmann | ewindisch: I will add that to my notes for the summit session | 16:21 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: of course, pecan doesn't support Python 3 either. | 16:22 |
| dhellmann | are you sure? | 16:22 |
| ewindisch | well, not according to the PyPi categories. | 16:22 |
| dhellmann | ah, I'll check into that | 16:23 |
| dhellmann | the intent is certainly to support it, but maybe it's not quite there yet | 16:23 |
| romcheg | Neither does wsme — Python 3.3 is not supported | 16:23 |
| dhellmann | christophe is quite open to patches, so we could get that updated | 16:23 |
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| ewindisch | romcheg: it supports python 3.2, and very little changed there. I suspect it probably works on 3.3, or could be made to work easily | 16:24 |
| dhellmann | yeah, that's probably just a matter of updating the tox.ini file | 16:24 |
| romcheg | ewindisch: yeah, probably easier than porting eventlet to py3 | 16:24 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: for RPC, we might be able to drop-in replace eventlet with anything else that provides (co)threading. | 16:26 |
| ewindisch | However, I know that for ZeroMQ, I used patterns that I would've avoided if not for eventlet and its behaviorisms. I'm not certain if that code would need to be rewritten, or if moving to PEP3156 would simply *allow* it to be rewritten. | 16:26 |
| dhellmann | those modules are pretty small, and the api is well defined. it might actually be simpler to just write new implementations. | 16:26 |
| dhellmann | I'd rather do a little extra work than live with extra layers of indirection | 16:27 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: for 3156? | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | yeah, across the rpc drivers | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | not just zmq | 16:27 |
| ewindisch | I can't imagine rewriting the implementations. | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | the question is really what the upstream libraries we're using do | 16:27 |
| dhellmann | I just mean openstack.common.rpc, not all of kombu, etc. | 16:28 |
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| dhellmann | it's a lot of work, but the question is whether it's better to do it or live with layers of crud for a while | 16:29 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: I can't see rewriting or even heavily refactoring each of the impl_* files in a single release. Worse, we're talking about trying to stabilize and push these into their own library at some point. | 16:29 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: I think that the eventlet problem has little to do with any cleanup/refactoring effort there. | 16:30 |
| dhellmann | agreed | 16:30 |
| ewindisch | anyway, we should have someone look seriously at PEP3156, eventlet, and tulip. | 16:30 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I just wanted to point out that we should consider options besides trying to force-fit eventlet just so we don't have to change our own code :-) | 16:31 |
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| ewindisch | dhellmann: I agree. I honestly think that there is a chance PEP3156 could be a good thing. If we supported that, it might be configurable to choose eventlet, gevent, zeromq, or twisted eventloops. (or whatever) | 16:32 |
| dhellmann | +1 | 16:32 |
| ewindisch | not sure that making that pluggable would work in practice, just as I'm not sure that anything but RabbitMQ works with our Kombu driver, but we can dream. :) | 16:33 |
| ewindisch | so if that is wrapped up… | 16:33 |
| dhellmann | :-) | 16:33 |
| ewindisch | I'd like to create an action item for someone(s) to look at tulip / pep3156 | 16:34 |
| ewindisch | but there aren't many people here | 16:34 |
| ewindisch | and I think we're all busy with the summit prep | 16:35 |
| romcheg | I can do that | 16:35 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I can't really commit to anything until after ODS | 16:35 |
| dhellmann | great! | 16:35 |
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| ewindisch | romcheg: thanks! | 16:35 |
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| ewindisch | #action romcheg investigate PEP3156 / tulip / eventlet issues | 16:35 |
| ewindisch | #topic meeting schedule | 16:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "meeting schedule (Meeting topic: Python3)" | 16:36 | |
| ewindisch | so one thing I forgot to ask last week was if this time / frequency worked for everyone. | 16:36 |
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| dhellmann | it works great for me, it's right after the ceilometer meeting | 16:36 |
| ewindisch | it works great for me too, but I set the time :) | 16:37 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: is there a reason the ceilometer meeting was split into alternating schedules? | 16:37 |
| dhellmann | we have a few core members in the Asia-Pacific region | 16:38 |
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| dhellmann | it's easier for them to attend the meetings on wednesdays | 16:38 |
| dhellmann | we have to try to span Europe, US, and Australia/China (I think) | 16:39 |
| ewindisch | I thought as such. | 16:39 |
| ewindisch | well, the other issue is frequency… I didn't want to overburden people with meetings, so I set it every other week. | 16:39 |
| ewindisch | regardless, I wanted to bring this up in today's meeting, but we don't have enough people to decide. | 16:40 |
| ewindisch | deferring until after ODS | 16:40 |
| dhellmann | I think that makes a lot of sense, too. At least until we make some significant progress, I'm not sure there will be much to talk about every week. | 16:40 |
| ewindisch | #topic open discussion | 16:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: Python3)" | 16:40 | |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: agreed | 16:42 |
| dhellmann | do we have any ODS sessions planned? would it make sense to get together for an open space session, at least? | 16:42 |
| ewindisch | there is an ODS session planned. | 16:42 |
| dhellmann | good, I'll watch for that when the schedule is released | 16:42 |
| ewindisch | it is preapproved, unlike my other proposals :) | 16:43 |
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| dhellmann | heh | 16:43 |
| ewindisch | dhellmann: think it would be valuable if someone did a lightning talk? <unfortunately, I don't have the time> | 16:44 |
| dhellmann | I don't remember lightning talks on the schedule from last time. Did I just miss them? | 16:44 |
| ewindisch | you must have missed them. | 16:44 |
| ewindisch | they've been very badly promoted | 16:44 |
| ewindisch | and attended | 16:45 |
| dhellmann | I remember them from the Folsom summit | 16:45 |
| ewindisch | hmm. I think they had them? | 16:45 |
| ewindisch | I'll follow up with Kathy or Stefano. I really hope they have them again, and better promote them as well. | 16:46 |
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| dhellmann | I don't see them on http://openstacksummitapril2013.sched.org/ | 16:46 |
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| ewindisch | yeah, I just sent an email to Stefano / Thierry / Kathy | 16:50 |
| ewindisch | anyway, unless there is anything else, I'll #endmeeting | 16:50 |
| * dhellmann has nothing to add | 16:50 | |
| ewindisch | thanks romcheg, dhellmann! | 16:51 |
| ewindisch | #endmeeting | 16:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 16:51 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 4 16:51:05 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:51 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/python3/2013/python3.2013-04-04-16.05.html | 16:51 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/python3/2013/python3.2013-04-04-16.05.txt | 16:51 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/python3/2013/python3.2013-04-04-16.05.log.html | 16:51 |
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| davidkranz | Any one here for the qa meeting? | 17:02 |
| ravikumar_hp | hi | 17:02 |
| dwalleck | here | 17:02 |
| davidkranz | sdague, jaypipes : Around? | 17:02 |
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| davidkranz | mtreinish: ?? | 17:03 |
| zyluo | Hi | 17:03 |
| jaypipes | hi | 17:03 |
| jaypipes | davidkranz: go ahead and /startmeeting.. | 17:03 |
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| davidkranz | #startmeeting qa | 17:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 4 17:03:43 2013 UTC. The chair is davidkranz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:03 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'qa' | 17:03 |
| davidkranz | #topic Summit | 17:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Summit (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:04 | |
| davidkranz | I just saw an email to the qa list about a scenarios session. | 17:04 |
| ravikumar_hp | unreviewed | 17:04 |
| davidkranz | I don't know when that session was submitted. | 17:04 |
| donaldngo_hp | hi | 17:04 |
| davidkranz | I don't think it was there when we discussed the sessions. | 17:05 |
| ravikumar_hp | i think 10days ago | 17:05 |
| JoseRaxQE | hey | 17:05 |
| jaypipes | davidkranz: yeah, I think it was a bit of a latecomer | 17:05 |
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| davidkranz | I am still not sure I understand what the real purpose is. | 17:05 |
| dwalleck | My understanding was talking about more project integration tests (nova/cinder integration tests, etc) | 17:06 |
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| davidkranz | dwalleck: If they are currently deficient they should be improved but that is already a clear part of Tempest's mission. | 17:07 |
| dwalleck | davidkranz: agreed | 17:07 |
| jaypipes | ++ | 17:07 |
| davidkranz | So perhaps this should be discussed as part of the last session which is to discuss missing tests. | 17:07 |
| davidkranz | ravikumar_hp: I think you submitted that one. | 17:08 |
| ravikumar_hp | yes. test gaps | 17:08 |
| jaypipes | davidkranz: either that, or we continue to discuss it in the mailing list thread and make it clear that just because something may be long-running doesn't mean it doesn't belong in tempest | 17:08 |
| ravikumar_hp | to convert to blueprints that will address in Havava . | 17:08 |
| davidkranz | ravikumar_hp: I think blueprints for missing tests is the right approach. | 17:08 |
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| ravikumar_hp | ok. | 17:09 |
| davidkranz | jaypipes: I hope we hash out the whole "what tests should be in tempest" issue at the summit. | 17:09 |
| ravikumar_hp | davidkranz: no session needed ? | 17:09 |
| davidkranz | ravikumar_hp: I don't think so but you can bring this up in your gap session. | 17:10 |
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| davidkranz | ravikumar_hp: I just don't see it as a new concept that we need a separate session for. | 17:10 |
| jaypipes | I agree. | 17:10 |
| ravikumar_hp | ok | 17:10 |
| davidkranz | ravikumar_hp: Great. | 17:10 |
| davidkranz | I think it would be good for session proposers to put up etherpads before the summit. | 17:11 |
| dwalleck | makes sense] | 17:11 |
| davidkranz | Is there some "official" place to put such etherpads. | 17:11 |
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| dwalleck | isn't there an openstack etherpad? | 17:12 |
| davidkranz | dwalleck: Yes, I meant the links so people can find them. | 17:12 |
| davidkranz | dwalleck: to the individual session etherpads. Ideally they would be in the session descriptions online. | 17:13 |
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| davidkranz | We could ask ttx about that. | 17:13 |
| davidkranz | dwalleck: Are you guys going to post the new stuff you talked about before the summit? | 17:14 |
| dwalleck | davidkranz: we're working out getting it right now. Sam? | 17:15 |
| RAX-Sam | Hey David. It's been posted to StackForge. I've finished the the zuul, build configuration, etc... and it's waiting on Approval | 17:15 |
| RAX-Sam | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/25870/ | 17:15 |
| RAX-Sam | When that goes through, the repositories will be hosted on StackForge | 17:15 |
| davidkranz | RAX-Sam: OK, it would be really helpful if we could take a look before the summit so the discussion can be better informed. | 17:16 |
| RAX-Sam | Absolutely. Has been our goal. :-) | 17:16 |
| davidkranz | RAX-Sam: If there is some kind of holdup in the official process perhaps you could point us at an informal link to the code. | 17:17 |
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| davidkranz | #topic General Discussion | 17:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "General Discussion (Meeting topic: qa)" | 17:17 | |
| RAX-Sam | There has been some activity and review today. If it hasn't been merged by today I'll email some links around tomorrow | 17:17 |
| davidkranz | RAX-Sam: Thanks! | 17:17 |
| davidkranz | Any one have a topic to bring up? | 17:18 |
| donaldngo_hp | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/update-expected-exception-tests is implemented can someone with previleges close it? | 17:18 |
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| afazekas | related to the scenario testing the policy.json mentioned by ykaul | 17:19 |
| davidkranz | donaldngo_hp: Just did that. | 17:19 |
| donaldngo_hp | thank you | 17:20 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: Not sure what you are pointing at. | 17:20 |
| afazekas | We should extend the default policy.json 's in-order to have a user type which is member of tenant but does not have permission to do anything | 17:20 |
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| afazekas | by the default policy many operation is doable by everyone | 17:21 |
| afazekas | we do not test the code path when the operation rejected by the policy module | 17:21 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: Oh, I see. | 17:22 |
| afazekas | I think the policy module itself is tested by unit test | 17:22 |
| dwalleck | I think the trick is that there's no guarantee in a given environment what the policy.json is | 17:22 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: Doesn't trying to do an admin thing as non-admin cover that? | 17:22 |
| afazekas | I do not thing so | 17:23 |
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| afazekas | some cases yes, but in many case it is not | 17:23 |
| dwalleck | You could do generated tests from a policy.json, but that would definitely need a lot of work | 17:23 |
| afazekas | yes | 17:23 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: Which code path are you saying is not covered? It is potentially different for each project, no? | 17:23 |
| afazekas | when the policy module rejects on operation | 17:24 |
| mtreinish | davidkranz: here now sorry, lunch went long | 17:24 |
| davidkranz | dwalleck: Isn't that unit-test territory? | 17:24 |
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| afazekas | we have test cases for attemting operations from differnt tenent, but it is differnt decision | 17:24 |
| dwalleck | davidkranz: Not necessarily | 17:24 |
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| afazekas | davidkranz: the correctness of the policy module itself is a unit test territory imho | 17:25 |
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| afazekas | but the usage of the policy module is not | 17:25 |
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| davidkranz | afazekas: So this heads back to the issue of how complete a functional api test tempest is supposed to be. | 17:25 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: There seem to be many opinions about this. | 17:26 |
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| afazekas | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/tempest/+spec/add-glance-policy-tests | 17:26 |
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| afazekas | davidkranz: yes to policy module allow us to define very crazy polices | 17:26 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: Where would you like to see this discussion end up? | 17:27 |
| afazekas | I would like to add to have two type of "regular" users | 17:28 |
| dwalleck | I think the difference is "Does policy.json work?" vs. "Do I have the expected policy.json deployed and does it enforce the permissions I expect?" | 17:28 |
| afazekas | the "nobody" type, who does not have any permission, but can authenticate | 17:28 |
| afazekas | and the "somebody" , who has the same capability what the default users have now | 17:29 |
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| afazekas | and the admin users .. | 17:29 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: The blueprint you pointed to does this with admin/non-admin users. | 17:30 |
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| davidkranz | afazekas: I must be missing something because I don't understand the difference in code path with nobody/regular user. | 17:31 |
| afazekas | davidkranz: yes, but compare it with the default devstack policy.json | 17:31 |
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| afazekas | http://www.fpaste.org/R9d3/ | 17:32 |
| afazekas | I do would like to use different policy than in the blueprint | 17:32 |
| afazekas | "default": "role:sombody", | 17:32 |
| afazekas | the "demo" user should have this right | 17:33 |
| afazekas | the policy.json which is in the blueprint is copied from an openstack documantion | 17:34 |
| afazekas | http://docs.openstack.org/developer/glance/policies.html | 17:35 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: I see that. | 17:35 |
| davidkranz | dwalleck: Do you have a comment about this? | 17:35 |
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| davidkranz | afazekas: How about you propose something specific. | 17:36 |
| davidkranz | afazekas: I don't think there is any objection, just not clear about what needs to be changed. | 17:37 |
| dwalleck | davidkranz: I see both sides. I'm thinking. If we have this specific config, then we're really just testing that specific configuration | 17:37 |
| davidkranz | dwalleck: Yes, and for that particular project. | 17:37 |
| davidkranz | But we could have devstack use a policy file that has more meat for testing. | 17:38 |
| davidkranz | I think that is what afazekas wants. | 17:38 |
| afazekas | I started a longer e-mail about the scenario stress and policy testing .., but I did not finished it and probably I will rephrase it | 17:38 |
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| afazekas | davidkranz: yes | 17:39 |
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| davidkranz | afazekas: OK, sounds good. We can continue in email. | 17:39 |
| afazekas | ok | 17:39 |
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| davidkranz | Anything else to bring up? | 17:40 |
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| davidkranz | OK, I guess we are done for today then. | 17:41 |
| sdague | not from me, just looking forward for portland | 17:41 |
| davidkranz | sdague: Me too. | 17:42 |
| davidkranz | I hope some of us can take a look at the new RAX stuff. | 17:42 |
| davidkranz | See you all next week. | 17:43 |
| davidkranz | #endmeeting | 17:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 17:43 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 4 17:43:12 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:43 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2013/qa.2013-04-04-17.03.html | 17:43 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2013/qa.2013-04-04-17.03.txt | 17:43 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/qa/2013/qa.2013-04-04-17.03.log.html | 17:43 |
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| bdpayne | #startmeeting OpenStack Security Group | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 4 18:00:26 2013 UTC. The chair is bdpayne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_security_group' | 18:00 |
| bdpayne | good morning everyone | 18:00 |
| noslzzp | Morning.. | 18:00 |
| bdpayne | who do we have here for the OSSG meeing? | 18:00 |
| noslzzp | Basil is here. | 18:00 |
| lglenden | I'm here. | 18:01 |
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| hyakuhei | Rob here | 18:02 |
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| bdpayne | excellent, so let's get right to it | 18:02 |
| bdpayne | summit is getting close | 18:02 |
| bdpayne | I'm looking forward to meeting with people f2f there and would like to have some discussions about how to make OSSG most effective going forward | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | So, between now and then, please be thinking about that :-) | 18:03 |
| bdpayne | #topic OS Security Guide | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OS Security Guide (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:03 | |
| bdpayne | @noslzzp any updates on the efforts with a doc sprint? | 18:04 |
| hyakuhei | This could be such a good project if we can just get it moving. | 18:04 |
| noslzzp | Yes, some.. | 18:04 |
| noslzzp | So I discussed the idea internally here and there is some interest in supporting it. | 18:04 |
| bdpayne | glad to hear it | 18:04 |
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| noslzzp | I've also discussed this with organizations in the public sector. They are interested as well. | 18:05 |
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| bdpayne | ok, so what are the next steps? | 18:05 |
| noslzzp | At minimum we can provide facilities at Red Hat. | 18:05 |
| zykes- | hmmms | 18:05 |
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| noslzzp | I'm scheduling a meeting with the public sector folks to discuss just that. | 18:06 |
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| bdpayne | ok, feel free to loop me into that -- if appropriate | 18:06 |
| bdpayne | I'm also happy to have you take the lead on putting this together :-) | 18:06 |
| noslzzp | The reason I am somewhat interested in the public sector side is because there is an avalanche of hardening/security work on OpenStack specifically that has been completed to date. | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | sure | 18:07 |
| noslzzp | We could immediately leverage those best practices, etc. | 18:07 |
| bdpayne | is that work available for public consumption? | 18:07 |
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| bdpayne | or in process for being made available? | 18:07 |
| noslzzp | Process of being made.. :) | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | great, very glad to hear that | 18:08 |
| noslzzp | In fact, that's why there is strong interest here.. | 18:08 |
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| noslzzp | This would be a great avenue to share. | 18:08 |
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| bdpayne | would love to get such people involved in this effort | 18:08 |
| bdpayne | if possible | 18:08 |
| noslzzp | It's possible. | 18:08 |
| noslzzp | I'll loop you in .. | 18:09 |
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| bdpayne | at this point, do you think it would be possible to announce a date for a doc sprint at the summit? | 18:09 |
| hyakuhei | I'd like to stay involved | 18:09 |
| noslzzp | 50/50 on an announcement. I think we can get a location/date pinned down in time. We'll need to really push though. | 18:10 |
| noslzzp | Hyakukei, where are you physically? (not that it matters, just curious). | 18:10 |
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| hyakuhei | I'm uk based but find myself stateside more times than I care to mention ;) | 18:10 |
| bdpayne | noslzzp let's aim for that as a goal… would be a great venue to get more involved and concrete plans are often a good way to approach that | 18:11 |
| hyakuhei | bdpayne and I have also been working with a few public sector bodies who may like to contribute | 18:11 |
| noslzzp | awesome. | 18:11 |
| * bdpayne thinks that we are all talking about the same public sector bodies, fyi | 18:11 | |
| noslzzp | there's a few of them.. :) | 18:11 |
| bdpayne | ok | 18:11 |
| bdpayne | so... | 18:12 |
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| bdpayne | #action noslzzp to push for a date / location for doc sprint to announce at summit | 18:12 |
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| noslzzp | Yep. | 18:12 |
| bdpayne | #topic Emails | 18:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Emails (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:12 | |
| bdpayne | You guys probably noticed that there have been many emails coming out this morning | 18:13 |
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| bdpayne | various security related bugs | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | are people seeing these? often from Thierry | 18:13 |
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| hyakuhei | I think Thierry closed out a bunch of Security vulns today | 18:13 |
| bdpayne | yeah | 18:14 |
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| bdpayne | so I just wanted to make a general remark that we've taken some effort to get these notifications in place | 18:14 |
| hyakuhei | OpenStack Security Group members on LaunchPad should receive these | 18:14 |
| hyakuhei | yeah | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | the idea is that OSSG members are a good group to provide feedback | 18:14 |
| hyakuhei | Should also point out that openstack-security@lists.openstack.org is a thing now :) | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | and that's, of course, a great way to have some security impact and increase the group's visibility | 18:14 |
| bdpayne | so I encourage folks to take advantage of that and provide feedback comments | 18:15 |
| lglenden | so the bug reports are sent to the launchpad group, and the listserv is used for more general purpose communication? | 18:15 |
| bdpayne | that's correct | 18:15 |
| lglenden | okay | 18:15 |
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| bdpayne | whether we use the dev list or our own mailing list is a judgement call | 18:15 |
| bdpayne | but, my hope is that we will identify some work to rally around at the summit, and that the mailing list may be a good place for chatter about such things, planning, etc | 18:16 |
| hyakuhei | +1 | 18:16 |
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| bdpayne | #topic Other Summit Planning | 18:17 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Other Summit Planning (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:17 | |
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| bdpayne | So it sounds like Rob/HP will be setting up something for OSSG to meeting up on Monday evening over food? | 18:17 |
| bdpayne | sorry… hyakuhei | 18:18 |
| hyakuhei | That's more or less correct | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | heh, ok | 18:18 |
| hyakuhei | Not sure where or what, reasonably confident on when. Could do with a better picture of 'who' | 18:18 |
| bdpayne | #action hyakuhei will advertise OSSG meeting | 18:19 |
| bdpayne | count me in | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | :D | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | I think HP will have a few, I believe APL are in for a few people too | 18:19 |
| noslzzp | Some good parties that night.. | 18:19 |
| bdpayne | I suspect that we may be able to get a few additional to show up as well | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | imho the mirantis ones are not the best, I'm planning that our meal be out in time for the RH one | 18:19 |
| hyakuhei | which I'm expecting good things from ;) | 18:20 |
| noslzzp | +1 | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | +1 to that | 18:20 |
| hyakuhei | I'm guessing 8-12 people atm | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | sounds good | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | any other chatter about the summit? | 18:20 |
| bdpayne | Anyone interested in seeing the Nebula One cloud controller can swing by our booth :-) | 18:21 |
| noslzzp | I am and will. :) | 18:21 |
| * bdpayne is happy to finally be shipping a product | 18:21 | |
| noslzzp | Congrats, btw.. | 18:21 |
| hyakuhei | Indeed | 18:21 |
| bdpayne | thx | 18:21 |
| hyakuhei | I'll be coming by, must play with the pretty lights. | 18:21 |
| bdpayne | #topic Open Discussion | 18:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: OpenStack Security Group)" | 18:22 | |
| bdpayne | anything else for today? | 18:22 |
| hyakuhei | Yep | 18:22 |
| hyakuhei | So I'd like to get the LXC Security Note out of the door. | 18:23 |
| hyakuhei | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/osn/+bug/1155566 | 18:23 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1155566 in osn "Note: Keystone Request / Header Size Limits Required to Avoid DoS" [High,Confirmed] | 18:23 |
| bdpayne | is it not already? | 18:23 |
| bdpayne | oh, the DOS security note? | 18:23 |
| hyakuhei | doh s/LXC/Keystone/ | 18:23 |
| bdpayne | got it | 18:23 |
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| hyakuhei | Just needs a couple of lines dropping in regarding Nginx/Apache/Other smart ways of doing http limiting | 18:23 |
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| bdpayne | would be nice to quantify large, perhaps? | 18:24 |
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| hyakuhei | Yeah, though that's somewhat relative to the available resources | 18:24 |
| hyakuhei | it's a linear exhaustion | 18:24 |
| bdpayne | gotcha | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | I'll add that info in | 18:25 |
| bdpayne | great | 18:25 |
| bdpayne | also, perhaps add haproxy to the list? | 18:25 |
| bdpayne | otherwise, lgtm | 18:25 |
| hyakuhei | go ahead | 18:25 |
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| bdpayne | ok, can do | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | I'll add that and see if I can get some links for the others | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | sometime today ;-) | 18:27 |
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| bdpayne | #action bdpayne to provide some details for OSN | 18:27 |
| bdpayne | anything else? | 18:27 |
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| bru | Is the web page for your cloud controller up to date? | 18:28 |
| bdpayne | bru please PM me with additional Nebula questions, but yes | 18:29 |
| bdpayne | ok, thanks everyone, have a great week | 18:29 |
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| bdpayne | #endmeeting | 18:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 18:29 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 4 18:29:23 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:29 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2013/openstack_security_group.2013-04-04-18.00.html | 18:29 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2013/openstack_security_group.2013-04-04-18.00.txt | 18:29 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_security_group/2013/openstack_security_group.2013-04-04-18.00.log.html | 18:29 |
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| dansmith | vishy: you drivin' this bus? | 20:01 |
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| sdague | dansmith: you are off by an hour :) | 20:05 |
| dansmith | what? | 20:06 |
| dansmith | my enterprise-class PIM software says it's now | 20:06 |
| krtaylor | hehheh | 20:06 |
| dansmith | I really don't understand why it's so damn stupid about timezone crap.. it clearly shows 2100UTC in the details bit | 20:07 |
| dansmith | sigh | 20:07 |
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| vishy | #startmeeting nova | 20:59 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Apr 4 20:59:58 2013 UTC. The chair is vishy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 20:59 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 21:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova' | 21:00 |
| vishy | oh hai! | 21:00 |
| mikal | Doh! | 21:00 |
| mikal | I wanted to do that! | 21:00 |
| devananda | \o | 21:00 |
| vishy | #chair mikal | 21:00 |
| boris-42 | HI | 21:00 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:00 |
| cyeoh | hi! | 21:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: mikal vishy | 21:00 |
| dansmith | o/ | 21:00 |
| mikal | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Nova | 21:00 |
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| alaski | hi | 21:00 |
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| mikal | #chair russellb | 21:00 |
| openstack | Warning: Nick not in channel: russellb | 21:00 |
| openstack | Current chairs: mikal russellb vishy | 21:00 |
| vishy | he's on vacation :) | 21:00 |
| mikal | I know... russellb asked me to run this meeting because he's currently taking a vacation in an Olive Garden or something. I think his goal is to finish the salad. | 21:01 |
| mikal | But I am also happy with vishy running it if he wants. | 21:01 |
| sdague | heh | 21:01 |
| vishy | el oh el | 21:01 |
| mikal | So, I think this will be relatively short... First agenda item... | 21:01 |
| mikal | #topic backport bug review | 21:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "backport bug review (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:01 | |
| mikal | So, the only bug I am aware of that we should backport is https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1163660 | 21:01 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1163660 in nova "nova-manage uses nova.db.fixed_ip_get_all_by_instance_host, which no longer exists" [Medium,In progress] | 21:01 |
| mikal | Any others? | 21:02 |
| mikal | Hillariously, that's been broken for over a year. | 21:02 |
| vishy | there are more | 21:02 |
| vishy | note the critical: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bugs?field.tag=grizzly-backport-potential | 21:02 |
| vishy | and the high | 21:02 |
| vishy | the nova-manage fixed list i think isn't too bad | 21:03 |
| mikal | Oh, its not as bad as I first thought it was | 21:03 |
| vishy | but not being able to use memcached is pretty bad | 21:03 |
| mikal | Its embarrassing though | 21:03 |
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| * mikal is waiting for LP to load that page | 21:03 | |
| dansmith | that's a lot of things to backport | 21:03 |
| dansmith | how does that compare to folsom? | 21:03 |
| mikal | Half are "fix committed" at least | 21:04 |
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| mikal | dansmith: I'm not sure, I don't remember that far back | 21:05 |
| ttx | we always had embarrassing bugs showing their heads on release +1h | 21:05 |
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| krtaylor | yeah, there isnt a folsom-backport-potential | 21:05 |
| mikal | So, it seems we should at least try and get them all assigned to people who are actually working on them... | 21:05 |
| dansmith | so, I guess we don't have one for the system_metadata concern, | 21:05 |
| dansmith | but is anyone else in a panic over that? | 21:06 |
| mikal | Want to provide more detail? | 21:06 |
| vishy | there is also this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/26109/ | 21:06 |
| vishy | folsom has has many hundreds of backports | 21:06 |
| dansmith | mikal: apparently comstud is severely concerned about performance related to the system_metadata "explosion" | 21:07 |
| dansmith | vishy: ah, good to know, I've never looked | 21:07 |
| mikal | dansmith: ahhh yeah, that blew up yesterday | 21:07 |
| dansmith | mikal: yeah :/ | 21:07 |
| mikal | dansmith: this review looks like it fixes that? | 21:07 |
| dansmith | mikal: this review? | 21:07 |
| dansmith | mikal: you mean 26109? no.. :) | 21:08 |
| dansmith | mikal: it relieves one pressure point that was easy :) | 21:08 |
| mikal | comstud: you around? | 21:08 |
| dansmith | he's on a plane | 21:08 |
| mikal | dansmith: hmmm, ok | 21:08 |
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| mikal | Ok, so it sounds like that needs more work then | 21:09 |
| dansmith | we've got a few plans for mitigation, but yeah | 21:09 |
| vishy | yeah joining all of the metadata at once is bad | 21:09 |
| mikal | There are also three bugs in that grizzly-backport-potential list with no assignee | 21:09 |
| vishy | honestly we should have stuck of the flavor related metadata into one field | 21:09 |
| vishy | then we could have joined it all at once | 21:10 |
| vishy | sigh | 21:10 |
| dansmith | vishy: could still do that, but aren't those columns limited to 255 chars? | 21:10 |
| vishy | dansmith: yeah we'd have to migrate them to text | 21:10 |
| dansmith | vishy: yeah | 21:10 |
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| mikal | vishy: I wonder how big those tables are in deploys... | 21:11 |
| dansmith | vishy: well, that's doable since everything is calling the instance_type_extract() to get at it | 21:11 |
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| vishy | we could make it join on system_metadata where key = instance_type | 21:11 |
| dansmith | so, that helps because we have fewer things in system_metadata for each instance, | 21:11 |
| dansmith | but we're still going to be joining the whole thing right? | 21:11 |
| dansmith | oh, we can do that? | 21:12 |
| vishy | but then we have to figure out where all of the other system metadata is being used | 21:12 |
| vishy | and explicitly join it when we need it | 21:12 |
| dansmith | yeah | 21:12 |
| mikal | dansmith: so, this sure sounds like it should have a bug filed if one doesn't already exist | 21:12 |
| dansmith | mikal: yeah, I don't know that comstud doesn't have one, he's usually quick on that | 21:12 |
| dansmith | looks like not though | 21:13 |
| * mikal asks his coworkers | 21:13 | |
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| dansmith | so, one thought we had, | 21:14 |
| dansmith | was to avoid the join entirely, | 21:14 |
| dansmith | and just do another query for the system_metadata items we care about | 21:14 |
| dansmith | which we can do in bulk after we get all the instances that we're going after in a given query | 21:14 |
| dansmith | the thought being that two trips to the db is better than the massive join | 21:15 |
| dansmith | so if that makes a significant improvement, that might be better than trying to do something more invasive | 21:15 |
| vishy | dansmith: i'm not convinced that will be faster but it is worth a shot | 21:15 |
| devananda | dansmith: if that means only pulling the metadata a) when it's actually needed, and b) which is desired, not all of it, then I think it'll be big | 21:16 |
| dansmith | vishy: yeah | 21:16 |
| mikal | Isn't that table lacking indexes to make that not suck? | 21:16 |
| dansmith | devananda: unfortunately, it doesn't mean either of those things necessarily | 21:16 |
| dansmith | mikal: no, apparently the indexes are the only reason it doesn't kill kittens already | 21:16 |
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| mikal | I can see an index on instance_uuid, but not key? | 21:17 |
| dansmith | mikal: we don't need a key, right? | 21:17 |
| devananda | probably not, since afaik nothing currently fetches only a single key | 21:17 |
| dansmith | mikal: since we're joining only on uuid and taking everything | 21:17 |
| dansmith | right | 21:17 |
| devananda | we will want an index though :) | 21:17 |
| mikal | dansmith: well, if you're going to cherry pick out specific keys to avoid a full join... | 21:17 |
| dansmith | mikal: that's not what we're talking about in this step | 21:18 |
| vishy | devananda: is there some way to optimize the join so that we don't get quite so many rows back? | 21:18 |
| devananda | so the eventual query would be WHERE (uuid=X and key in(...)) OR (uuid=Y and key in (...)) ... | 21:18 |
| vishy | for examle with 24 metadata items we get 24 copies of each instance right? | 21:18 |
| dansmith | right, but we need all of those, | 21:18 |
| devananda | hrmm | 21:18 |
| dansmith | since we don't know if the caller is going to use system_metadata or not | 21:19 |
| vishy | well we need all of the rows, but we don't need all of the instance data in every row | 21:19 |
| devananda | vishy: i hadn't considered the code was doing that | 21:19 |
| vishy | not sure if it would make any difference | 21:19 |
| devananda | but you may be right. that'll be a huge waste of network traffic but not necessarily nmake the join any slower | 21:19 |
| dansmith | so, comstud said that it wasn't pegging cpu or anything, just generating a crapton of network traffic, | 21:19 |
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| dansmith | so I think that the problem _is_ the extra data, I just can't see how a join would not generate the full result on each row | 21:19 |
| devananda | if the caller needs 4 pieces of metadata but fetches 20, that slows down the query cause the db has to do 5x more work | 21:20 |
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| mikal | The resource tracker does know what metadata items it needs, right? | 21:20 |
| mikal | So it could provide that as a hint to the lookup | 21:20 |
| devananda | if, otoh, the db returned only those 4 pieces of metadata -- but each ROW also had an identical copy of the instance data -- then it slows down the network and, possibly, python -- but not th DB | 21:20 |
| dansmith | mikal: in a few cases we could micro-optimize, yeah, | 21:20 |
| mikal | dansmith: well, the resource tracker is what is punching comstud in the face | 21:21 |
| dansmith | mikal: but it's hard for things like compute manager where it's going to pass the instance to a bunch of random things | 21:21 |
| mikal | dansmith: its the painful case | 21:21 |
| dansmith | mikal: no, I think that the other patch made that better.. he said the periodic task was the killer now, I thought | 21:21 |
| mikal | dansmith: ahhh, ok | 21:22 |
| vishy | i think the right solution here is to convert metadata and system_metadata into a json blob | 21:22 |
| vishy | unless there are places we are filtering on it | 21:22 |
| mikal | vishy: do you seeing that being backported to grizzly? | 21:22 |
| dansmith | what's the impact of the text column? | 21:22 |
| vishy | in which case we should just convert parts of metadata (like flavor info) to blobs | 21:22 |
| dansmith | vishy: that's a helluva migration too, right? | 21:22 |
| devananda | just to take a step back, where exactly is the performance problem right now? | 21:22 |
| vishy | dansmith: negligible afaik | 21:22 |
| dansmith | devananda: network traffic out of the db server, I believe | 21:23 |
| vishy | devananda: when you have large numbers of instances the joins makes the data transfer crazy | 21:23 |
| dansmith | devananda: we really should have comstud here | 21:23 |
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| devananda | moving from a k/v table to using a json blob (one row per uuid) is a dramatic change on db behavior | 21:23 |
| vishy | like 10000 rows turns into 120000 | 21:23 |
| devananda | vishy: ok. so in that case, is the issue network traffic or DB time for the JOIN ? | 21:23 |
| mikal | devananda: I believe comstud's problem was network traffic | 21:24 |
| vishy | network traffic + unpacking time | 21:24 |
| dansmith | comstud made it sound like traffic | 21:24 |
| dansmith | yeah | 21:24 |
| devananda | has someone separated those by timing the first packet and the last packet of mysql's response? | 21:24 |
| devananda | ok | 21:24 |
| vishy | sqlalchemy processing 120000 rows is pretty damn slow as well | 21:24 |
| devananda | so then change the JOIN to a subquery + CONCAT | 21:24 |
| devananda | or use an in-memory pivot table | 21:24 |
| devananda | to return only 1 row per instance | 21:24 |
| vishy | devananda: do you have any idea how to do either of those in sqlalchemy? | 21:25 |
| devananda | from python's POV, it has the same effect as going to json but doesn't require any db migration | 21:25 |
| devananda | vishy: no clue in sqla ... | 21:25 |
| vishy | devananda: that would be sweet | 21:25 |
| devananda | boris-42: any thoughts on ^ ? | 21:25 |
| dansmith | that sounds nice (no migration) | 21:25 |
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| * dansmith pretends he understands what devananda said | 21:25 | |
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| vishy | basically we want to add an extra field to instances that does a subquery on metadata items and sticks them all into a single field. | 21:26 |
| devananda | dansmith: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4555988/sql-server-pivot-on-key-value-table (first hit on google, haven't read it...) | 21:26 |
| devananda | but the question there shows an exaple of our problem | 21:26 |
| vishy | devananda: actually we could just add a prefix to the fields right? | 21:27 |
| devananda | and what a pivot does | 21:27 |
| devananda | vishy: i'm not sure why we'd do that | 21:27 |
| vishy | metadata_key1, metadata_key2 etc. | 21:27 |
| dansmith | devananda: that looks excellent :) | 21:27 |
| devananda | vishy: ah. yes | 21:27 |
| devananda | vishy: all columns in table 1 + (prefix+key) for all columns in table 2 | 21:28 |
| dansmith | we already have a prefix on the type keys, do we need more? | 21:28 |
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| devananda | vishy: another approach is to use GROUP_CONCAT to return all the key/value pairs in a single text field | 21:28 |
| devananda | eg, "key1:val1,key2:val2" | 21:29 |
| vishy | devananda: so you concat them with a , and hope none of the vals have a , in them? | 21:29 |
| devananda | as long as we have separators which are guaranteed not to be present in either key or value ;) | 21:29 |
| vishy | yeah thats the part i'm worried about :) | 21:29 |
| dansmith | devananda: so is this going to be significantly better than two queries? | 21:29 |
| dansmith | I mean, a little more latency, but is it actually faster for some reason? | 21:29 |
| vishy | https://github.com/tomasd/pandas-sqlalchemy-pivot | 21:30 |
| dansmith | because I haven't seen anyone speak in SQLA terms yet | 21:30 |
| devananda | dansmith: probably not faster, no. | 21:30 |
| dansmith | okay | 21:31 |
| dansmith | vishy: do I take the README on that project to mean that SQLA can't do this itself? | 21:31 |
| vishy | dansmith: so you are saying that we convert all of the instance gets to do a separate query for metadata and shove it in? | 21:31 |
| devananda | db still has to do the same work to get the entries from system_metadata. returning (uuid,key,val) 10M times or returning (uuid, other fields, concat of keys and values) 100k times... the total byte count will be similar. | 21:32 |
| dansmith | vishy: that's what we want to try, yeah | 21:32 |
| vishy | dansmith: i guess that avoids copying the extra data from each row | 21:32 |
| dansmith | vishy: the only problem I have right now is that the Instance SQLA object doesn't want me fscking with its field, | 21:32 |
| dansmith | so I have to do some dirty work to convert it to a dict | 21:32 |
| dansmith | which is ugly, and maybe a showstopper, but it works for testing at least | 21:33 |
| vishy | dansmith: we already do some similar mucking | 21:33 |
| vishy | for aggregates | 21:33 |
| dansmith | okay then :) | 21:33 |
| vishy | iirc | 21:33 |
| dansmith | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/26136/ | 21:33 |
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| dansmith | that's just a quick hack to test with, but it appears to pass tests | 21:33 |
| vishy | dansmith: dict(inst.iteritems()) | 21:34 |
| vishy | btw | 21:34 |
| dansmith | ah, okay | 21:34 |
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| vishy | lets get comstud to test taht when he gets off the plane | 21:34 |
| vishy | i think we need a bug report as well | 21:34 |
| dansmith | vishy: yeah | 21:35 |
| dansmith | well, sorry for dominating the meeting, | 21:36 |
| mikal | Heh | 21:36 |
| dansmith | but excellent discussion, IMHO :) | 21:36 |
| vishy | no it is important | 21:36 |
| mikal | It was worthwhile | 21:36 |
| vishy | i will mark the bug critical | 21:36 |
| vishy | and we can get it into stable/grizzly next week | 21:36 |
| mikal | Did we actually find a bug? | 21:36 |
| dansmith | mikal: I didn't see one | 21:36 |
| mikal | (in LP I mean) | 21:36 |
| vishy | we have enough bugs to warrant a quick grizzly.1 i think | 21:36 |
| vishy | mikal: can someone report it? | 21:37 |
| dansmith | I can | 21:37 |
| mikal | Ok cool | 21:37 |
| dansmith | (I have that ability) | 21:37 |
| mikal | Ok, so what about https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1164072 -- is on the backport list but doesn't have an assignee | 21:37 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1164072 in nova "libvirt livemigration warning logger refernces a not defined local varaible" [Medium,Triaged] | 21:37 |
| mikal | Stupid locals() | 21:38 |
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| dansmith | https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1164737 | 21:39 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1164737 in nova "Instance joins with system_metadata are critically slow" [Critical,Confirmed] | 21:39 |
| mikal | Actually, I'll take 1164072 | 21:39 |
| boris-42 | Btw I know probably it is offtop but could we speak little bit about this bp https://blueprints.launchpad.net/nova/+spec/use-db-time | 21:39 |
| mikal | There are a few things wrong with that log message. | 21:39 |
| boris-42 | I have some questions.. | 21:39 |
| mikal | boris-42: can we do that in "open discussion"? | 21:39 |
| vishy | yeah that one is super easy :) | 21:40 |
| mikal | The other unassigned one is https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1160442 | 21:40 |
| uvirtbot | Launchpad bug 1160442 in quantum "when boot many vms with quantum, nova sometimes allocates two quantum ports rather than one" [Undecided,Incomplete] | 21:40 |
| boris-42 | mikal ok | 21:40 |
| devananda | mikal: is that a race condition in db? (just guessing, still reading) | 21:40 |
| mikal | devananda: no idea. I'm trying to trick someone into digging into it... | 21:41 |
| * devananda hides | 21:41 | |
| mikal | No takers? | 21:42 |
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| mikal | Fair enough | 21:43 |
| vishy | mikal: arosen might be good for that one | 21:43 |
| mikal | vishy: ok, I will ping him | 21:43 |
| mikal | Unless he's here... | 21:43 |
| vishy | i just did in nova | 21:43 |
| mikal | Cool | 21:43 |
| mikal | Is there anything else we should discuss backport wise? | 21:43 |
| vishy | mikal: I'm going to discuss doing a quick .1 with the stable-backports folks | 21:44 |
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| mikal | vishy: ok. Do you want to issue a deadline for people to try and get their fixes in to make that release? | 21:44 |
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| vishy | if we do it it will probably just be a quick version of all the really important ones | 21:45 |
| vishy | high + critical | 21:45 |
| mikal | Ok, cool | 21:45 |
| vishy | but i need to discuss with markmc + other stable team to be sure | 21:45 |
| mikal | Fair enough | 21:45 |
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| mikal | We're ok to move on to the next topic? | 21:45 |
| vishy | it would be great if everyone could help stay on top of the bug queue | 21:45 |
| vishy | i knocked out about 15 today | 21:46 |
| vishy | but there are still a few left | 21:46 |
| vishy | addressing bugs quickly right after release is really important | 21:46 |
| mikal | Yeah, I see 26 bugs needing triage as well | 21:46 |
| vishy | because a lot of people don't try the rcs | 21:46 |
| vishy | mikal: refresh, its only 12 | 21:46 |
| vishy | :) | 21:46 |
| mikal | Ahhh, I think we're counting differently. I'm including incomplete bugs as untriaged. | 21:47 |
| vishy | oh gotcha | 21:47 |
| vishy | i set bugs back to incomplete if i need more info from the reporter | 21:47 |
| mikal | Yeah, that's fine. I think that's you doing the right thing. | 21:47 |
| mikal | I do the same | 21:47 |
| mikal | But in my mind its still a bug we need to categorize, even if we're waiting for someone | 21:48 |
| mikal | Otherwise if they never reply it sits around forever | 21:48 |
| mikal | We really should move on... | 21:48 |
| mikal | #topic design summit | 21:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "design summit (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:48 | |
| mikal | IIRC russellb has now let people know about session acceptance | 21:49 |
| mikal | Hmmm, there are still a fair few marked as "unreviewed" though | 21:49 |
| mikal | Does anyone have anything they want to say about the summit? | 21:50 |
| mikal | Moving on then | 21:51 |
| mikal | #topic open discussion | 21:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova)" | 21:51 | |
| mikal | boris-42: now is your time to shine... | 21:51 |
| boris-42 | mikal thanks | 21:51 |
| mikal | So, reading that blueprint... | 21:52 |
| mikal | timeutils.utcnow() is super useful for unit testing | 21:52 |
| boris-42 | So we discussed that using local time on nodes is bad idea.. | 21:52 |
| mikal | I'd expect a bunch of unit tests to need work if we removed it and used DB time | 21:52 |
| devananda | indeed | 21:52 |
| vishy | boris-42: that seems like a huge amount of work for very little benefit | 21:52 |
| boris-42 | vishy it seems only =) | 21:53 |
| devananda | it's a pretty common problem in distributed systems | 21:53 |
| vishy | boris-42: it seems like a lot of places we use utcnow we are not actually needing to compare against db objects | 21:53 |
| devananda | if the clock gets out of sync somewhere, all kinds of issues crop up | 21:54 |
| beagles | devanada: +1 | 21:54 |
| devananda | eg, if one compute host's ntpd dies and it drifts, pretty soon it may appear "dead" to the scheduler | 21:54 |
| boris-42 | Yes but there is also a lot of places where we are comparing | 21:54 |
| boris-42 | I have problems with only 70 nodes =) | 21:54 |
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| beagles | just about any middleware "environment" ends up with some concept of system time (OMG Time Service, etc) | 21:54 |
| devananda | because the compute host is writing it's localtime to the db updated_at value, which the scheduler compares to it's localtime | 21:55 |
| boris-42 | So the idea is pretty simple to add methods in db and conductor | 21:55 |
| boris-42 | and use it instead of timeutils.utcnow() | 21:55 |
| vishy | i'm just worried about adding a whole bunch of unneded db calls | 21:55 |
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| boris-42 | They are pretty simple for DB | 21:55 |
| mikal | I wonder how much extra load it will be on conductor as well? | 21:55 |
| devananda | if done right, i don't think it'll result in more db calls at all | 21:55 |
| vishy | i guess we could specifically split out system_time and local_time | 21:55 |
| mikal | Do we know how often we ask for the time? | 21:55 |
| devananda | it's only a matter of when something writes a timestamp TO the db that the problem occurs | 21:56 |
| devananda | er, correcting myself. that's half | 21:56 |
| vishy | we use it for caching and things as well | 21:56 |
| devananda | the other half is when somethig reads a time from the DB and compares to local time. but again, it can ask the DB for its time | 21:56 |
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| devananda | ah, hrm | 21:57 |
| vishy | there are a lot of places that this will not scale | 21:57 |
| vishy | making a db call every time we need to check if a cache item is valid is rediculous | 21:57 |
| vishy | so we will need two versions of time | 21:57 |
| vishy | one where we just need a locally consistent time | 21:58 |
| vishy | and one where we need a globally consistent time | 21:58 |
| boris-42 | vishy +1 | 21:58 |
| devananda | ++ | 21:58 |
| mikal | So, what about a periodic task which checks db time against system time? | 21:58 |
| dripton | ++, but while we're changing everything, we should always use UTC rather than local. | 21:58 |
| mikal | Every ten minutes or something | 21:58 |
| vishy | devananda: any idea about db systems that have master/master | 21:58 |
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| vishy | dripton: sorry i don't mean local as in timezone local | 21:59 |
| devananda | mikal: of what benefit is that? | 21:59 |
| vishy | i mean local as in local to this machine | 21:59 |
| vishy | still in utc time | 21:59 |
| devananda | vishy: when there are >1 DB at play (whethe rmaster,master or galera or ..) it's extra important for their clocks to be in sync | 21:59 |
| mikal | devananda: well, we could at least log that we've detected an error condition. It would help with diagnosis from an operator. | 21:59 |
| devananda | vishy: in my former db consulting hat, i saw lots of issues creep up from that | 21:59 |
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| vishy | for example this: https://github.com/openstack/nova/blob/master/nova/openstack/common/memorycache.py#L62 | 21:59 |
| vishy | should never talk to the db | 22:00 |
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| vishy | devananda: ok so we are assuming that keeping the db clocks in sync is easier than keeping all of the nodes in sync? | 22:00 |
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| devananda | mikal: if there is a clear separation between things that need to track distributed-time and things that need to track local/relative-time, then i don't think such a check would be meaningful | 22:00 |
| dansmith | I'm skeptical of anything where we have to consult the db for the current time, | 22:01 |
| devananda | vishy: yes. there are probably a lot less db's than nova nodes, and a lot more attention should be spent on them :) | 22:01 |
| mikal | devananda: well, I'm thinking of ways to avoid asking the db for the time all over the place | 22:01 |
| vishy | devananda: I buy that | 22:01 |
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| devananda | i dont see this as "ask the db for the time" | 22:01 |
| vishy | devananda: i just want to make sure we aren't limiting db choices by forcing the db to handle global time for us | 22:01 |
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| vishy | we could instead do something like use the nova-conductor time for everything but a lot of the time comparisons are against db objects so we do get some performance benefits by doing it concurrently with db requests | 22:02 |
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| mikal | Given we're now over time, do we want to discuss this at the summit? | 22:03 |
| vishy | sure | 22:03 |
| beagles | is there value in having an openstack system time that has a source from "somewhere"... start there, maybe have it initialized and periodically verified from whatever source? | 22:03 |
| vishy | I'm still not convinced that running a robust ntp solution isn't easier | 22:03 |
| vishy | beagles: that is ntp | 22:03 |
| vishy | but yeah we are out of time | 22:03 |
| vishy | summit discussion! | 22:04 |
| beagles | vishy: :) of course it could grab it from there ;) | 22:04 |
| vishy | #endmeeting | 22:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings || Development in #openstack-dev || Help in #openstack" | 22:04 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Apr 4 22:04:17 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:04 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2013/nova.2013-04-04-20.59.html | 22:04 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2013/nova.2013-04-04-20.59.txt | 22:04 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova/2013/nova.2013-04-04-20.59.log.html | 22:04 |
| mikal | Thanks people | 22:04 |
| vishy | thanks mikal! | 22:04 |
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| boris-42 | thanks | 22:04 |
| boris-42 | =) | 22:04 |
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| mikal | :) | 22:04 |
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| devananda | o/ | 22:05 |
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